Redcloak has the phylactory, what is his end goal on that?

[WolvesbaneIII]

it is assumed RC has the Phylactory. we see him switch what is assumed to be the real mccoy.

why? if xykon is blown up and destroyed or whatever, well, then what?

xykon would just be pissed and kill him when he regenerated. even if he made him promise to be a good boy and not kill him, why would he follow through with this? he's not just chaotic, he's chaotic evil with a capital E. RC is toast, so what is the point?

so, what do you guys think? I'm thinking there is more to this.

maybe he can tap into xykons power when he's in the phylactory, like the soul splice thing V did. not quite, but xykon while in it is an object rather than a person, so I'm guessing his special immunities might not kick in, though I'm guessing he is still immune to mind control, but tapping into his spirit could be a thing provided he has the right power granted by plot or some other thing.

The above is simply speculation and based on nothing, so it would be considered an argument from ignorance, but I am wondering what you guys think. What is RC's end game on this?

[KorvinStarmast]

I will hazard a guess, but it's based on Start of Darkness a little bit.

It's an insurance policy against Xykon, as happened at the end of book 1, getting destroyed by a group of heroes or paladins as almost happened at the end of book 3.

Sunk cost - if you are gonna go, go all the way:

Spoiler: SoD stuff

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he's the one who turned Xykon into a lich since he needed a powerful evil spell caster to go along with his divine mission as revealed to him in SoD

Cannot fail.
Must not fail.
And absent Xykon, he believes that failure is the only possible outcome.

That's my guess on why he keeps it handy. He feels that he has to. If Xykon is whacked and the phylactery is somewhere else, Xykon will likely reform there and, absent Redcloak being nearby, be his usual self and maybe just go on and be Evil in some other way to amuse himself, and no longer aid Redcloak in his quest.

Redcloak needs Xykon more than Xykon needs Redcloak.

[Jasdoif]

why? if xykon is blown up and destroyed or whatever, well, then what?

xykon would just be pissed and kill him when he regenerated.

Destroying the phylactery before Xykon regenerated is an option.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Destroying the phylactery before Xykon regenerated is an option.

but thats my point, he needs xykon for the ritual. destroying him also destroys the plan.

so it seems counter productive. thats why I'm thinking he has -something- in mind to accomplish this goal with the snarl. unless he plans to keep a part of xykon and revive him as a human (somehow) and make him a zombie or somethign that can cast spells. a different undead that RC can manipulate with less subtle methods.

I don't even know if reviving xykon as a human can happen even with a skull from a destroyed lich body. unless he has the fabled true resurrection method.

then again, maybe xykon low key has some counter trap for that he is saving, all for the lolz of pulling the rug from under RC. Not because he's a brilliant tactician, but because he wants to laugh at RC for failing. and how wrong eye died for jack squat.

[Jasdoif]

but thats my point, he needs xykon for the ritual. destroying him also destroys the plan.

Xykon destroying Redcloak before the ritual is complete also destroys the Plan, though. Xykon's body being destroyed while Redcloak has the actual phylactery practically mandates that Redcloak eliminate Xykon, before Xykon eliminates him; no matter what Redcloak might be gambling on.


My best guess is that Redcloak guessed, correctly, that he wasn't going to have another chance to prevent Xykon becoming a problem. Something like voiding the Dark One's concessions by destroying his leverage in the form of the post-ritual Gate. Hence the fauxlactery: Xykon will believe he's secured his future and thus may fulfill his part in the Plan, while Redcloak still has a shot (however unrealistic it may be) of shutting down Xykon permanently after the ritual is complete.

[Lord Raziere]

His end goal with the phylactery is simple, and easy to understand once you remember what kind of person he is.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Redcloak above all, is a person who wants revenge. not like how Belkar or Nale or whomever wants revenge immediately and in the heat of the moment, not like that at all. He is the kind of the person that ascribes to the philosophy of "revenge is a dish best served cold". remember Azure City? yeah, 35 years ago, sapphire guard killed his entire village, ruining his life and setting him on the path he is now. Redcloak is the type of person to patiently wait 35 years all so he can finally get his revenge on the people who wronged him, and even then he did it methodically, strategically, dismantling every defense, to the point where it was only when his victory was assured and the last boat of azure city nobles was fleeing the city while his army conquered it, that he began to gloat and celebrate. he waited, he got it all figured out, and in the end he got his revenge. Even if everyone has forgotten, Redcloak won't forget. Redcloak remembers. and Redcloak repays what is done to him in kind.

How did this relate to Xykon? simple. in Start of Darkness, Redcloak had a chance to turn his life around in Right Eye's village. Xykon then took away his chance at that new life, his brother's family and manipulated him into killing his own brother and not turning back from doing so, in that order. and that was only.....6 months before the start of the comic? Hm. about 10 or 11 months at the current date, maybe? currently there is no being more worthy of Redcloak's wrath right now than Xykon. the key thing to remember is: Xykon is a tool to Redcloak, and once his use is done and the Dark One has control of the Gate, Xykon completely scammed out of his world domination, Redcloak can dispose of him, revenge for Right-Eye achieved.

TL;DR, Redcloak never intended to share power with Xykon (because world domination was never on the table), and has good reason to get rid of him once the Plan is done, because Xykon is a jerk.

[Charity322]

He needs something to keep Xykon under control. If he doesn't have the phylactery (and therefore control if Xykon is destroyed and helpless), then he can't keep Xykon toeing the line if Xykon decides he doesn't care about working with Redcloak anymore or if Xykon finds out that Redcloak has lied to him.

If Xykon's unlife is still under Redcloak's control then he has an ace in the hole if Xykon turns on him (and neither of them trust each other and would totally screw the other over if they thought it would help them or if Xykon thought it was funny).

[faustin]

A good question many of us have pondered is if Xykon may have discovered the fake phylactery and is just playing along a little more ("Don't confuse not knowing with not caring."").

Another one is if Redcloak knows about Xykon's own countermeasure to his eventual treachery.

Man, I so want to find out who will have the last laugh.

[Kelenius]

He needs something to keep Xykon under control. If he doesn't have the phylactery (and therefore control if Xykon is destroyed and helpless), then he can't keep Xykon toeing the line if Xykon decides he doesn't care about working with Redcloak anymore or if Xykon finds out that Redcloak has lied to him.

If Xykon's unlife is still under Redcloak's control then he has an ace in the hole if Xykon turns on him (and neither of them trust each other and would totally screw the other over if they thought it would help them or if Xykon thought it was funny).

Having a phylactery doesn't give him control over Xykon, though. He tried it in SoD.

Spoiler: SoD

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Didn't work.

A good question many of us have pondered is if Xykon may have discovered the fake phylactery and is just playing along a little more ("Don't confuse not knowing with not caring."").

Another one is if Redcloak knows about Xykon's own countermeasure to his eventual treachery.

Man, I so want to find out who will have the last laugh.

I don't think so. He was really mad when losing the phylactery, and Xykon isn't really a subtle person. I think if he discovered it, he'd just kill Redcloak and move on.

[Emanick]

<snip>

You should really spoiler that crucial plot information from Start of Darkness, FYI.

Having a phylactery doesn't give him control over Xykon, though. He tried it in SoD.

Spoiler: SoD

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Didn't work.

People keep citing this as evidence that possessing the phylactery doesn't count as leverage (I get that "leverage" and "control" are slightly different things, so this response is not fully directed at you), but I don't think that's as true as it used to be. We saw how strongly Xykon reacted to his phylactery being threatened in Book 4. He's much more attached to it, and seems far more committed to evading death at all costs, than he ever was in SoD. It's difficult for me to conclude that he hasn't become much more psychologically dependent on immortality over time - witness his speech about "anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."

No, Redcloak clearly can't control Xykon by threatening to destroy his phylactery. But in the right situation, it could conceivably give him crucial leverage. And it's not hard to imagine such a situation arising during the high stakes of a showdown at the final Gate.

[hroþila]

I think the switcheroo serves several purposes.

First of all, if Xykon is destroyed after completing the ritual (by Redcloak or by someone else), then it's easy for Redcloak to permanently destroy Xykon, whereas if he regenerated back in his astral fortress this wouldn't be a possibility. If the Plan succeeds, Xykon would be a threat even if somehow he doesn't lash out immediately to kill Redcloak and the confrontation happens later. I don't think this is Redcloak's main reason, though. It's more likely that Xykon would be destroyed before completing the ritual, in which case the cat would be out of the bag and Redcloak would have no choice but to permanently destroy Xykon and find another arcane caster. But Redcloak might have reasoned that if Xykon gets destroyed that very likely means he's toast too and the Plan is over anyway.

I think the main purpose for Redcloak is to assuage his own feelings of self-hatred over working with Xykon. Now he can fool himself into believing he's doing everything he can to destroy Xykon or keep him under control. He can say "Well, I'm not strong enough to take him on anyway, so I need to keep working with him. This is all I can do. At least this can still lead to the Plan being fulfilled - we're so close now". And more importantly, "He thinks he's the boss, but he doesn't know I have his phylactery. He's at my mercy really". Yes, even if he knows he can't destroy Xykon's soul by destroying the phylactery. He knows it's something Xykon wants to protect, that does give him some leverage at a pinch.

There's also the possibility that Redcloak did the switcheroo to force himself to destroy Xykon once and for all if the opportunity arises. Because his betrayal would be obvious the second Xykon started regenerating on him, he'd have no choice but to act. If Redcloak didn't trust himself to make the right call in the heat of the moment, but could sorta do it this way because then it wouldn't be certain that it'd come to pass, this would make sense. You might think that his sunk cost fallacy would prevent him from taking even this indirect course of action, but again, he may have reasoned that Xykon being destroyed at this stage of the game means the Plan is a lost cause anyway.

[Jason]

His end goal with the phylactery is simple, and easy to understand once you remember what kind of person he is.

Redcloak above all, is a person who wants revenge.

Yep, it's revenge.
Once Xykon completes his part of the ritual Redcloak will have no reason not to destroy him, and very good reasons to want to destroy him.
I believe Redcloak has a plan for destroying Xykon's body immediately after the ritual is concluded. Then while Xykon starts to regenerate he can take the time to gloat over how he has manipulated Xykon for 35 years before destroying the phylactery and sending Xykon's soul on to its final destination.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I think the switcheroo serves several purposes.

First of all, if Xykon is destroyed after completing the ritual (by Redcloak or by someone else), then it's easy for Redcloak to permanently destroy Xykon, whereas if he regenerated back in his astral fortress this wouldn't be a possibility. If the Plan succeeds, Xykon would be a threat even if somehow he doesn't lash out immediately to kill Redcloak and the confrontation happens later. I don't think this is Redcloak's main reason, though. It's more likely that Xykon would be destroyed before completing the ritual, in which case the cat would be out of the bag and Redcloak would have no choice but to permanently destroy Xykon and find another arcane caster. But Redcloak might have reasoned that if Xykon gets destroyed that very likely means he's toast too and the Plan is over anyway.

I think the main purpose for Redcloak is to assuage his own feelings of self-hatred over working with Xykon. Now he can fool himself into believing he's doing everything he can to destroy Xykon or keep him under control. He can say "Well, I'm not strong enough to take him on anyway, so I need to keep working with him. This is all I can do. At least this can still lead to the Plan being fulfilled - we're so close now". And more importantly, "He thinks he's the boss, but he doesn't know I have his phylactery. He's at my mercy really". Yes, even if he knows he can't destroy Xykon's soul by destroying the phylactery. He knows it's something Xykon wants to protect, that does give him some leverage at a pinch.

There's also the possibility that Redcloak did the switcheroo to force himself to destroy Xykon once and for all if the opportunity arises. Because his betrayal would be obvious the second Xykon started regenerating on him, he'd have no choice but to act. If Redcloak didn't trust himself to make the right call in the heat of the moment, but could sorta do it this way because then it wouldn't be certain that it'd come to pass, this would make sense. You might think that his sunk cost fallacy would prevent him from taking even this indirect course of action, but again, he may have reasoned that Xykon being destroyed at this stage of the game means the Plan is a lost cause anyway.

so your saying he is planning on destroying xykon after the plan works? Thats a good point.

My only concern is this: won't the gods retaliate after the fact, the ones not killed? I'd think RC is toast in either situation unless I misunderstood something.

[InvisibleBison]

My only concern is this: won't the gods retaliate after the fact, the ones not killed? I'd think RC is toast in either situation unless I misunderstood something.

Wouldn't the "dumb god laws" prevent them from taking such direct action on the Material Plane?

[ti'esar]

It's difficult for me to conclude that he hasn't become much more psychologically dependent on immortality over time - witness his speech about "anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."

It's a bit of a tangent, because I do think the way he freaked out over losing his phylactery suggests that he's become a lot more concerned about it since SoD (or was bluffing then), but: I think, and have thought for a while, that a lot of people misinterpret that speech. Contextually it's mostly just slamming Darth V and the Soul Splices - "two of the most powerful souls ever damned to the Lower Planes" sounds a lot less impressive when you list all the ways a powerful evil caster has to avoid dying in the first place. I don't think either Xykon or Rich intended to imply that Xykon's own primary motivation is "avoiding the Big Fire Below."

[Manga Shoggoth]

We saw how strongly Xykon reacted to his phylactery being threatened in Book 4. He's much more attached to it, and seems far more committed to evading death at all costs, than he ever was in SoD. It's difficult for me to conclude that he hasn't become much more psychologically dependent on immortality over time - witness his speech about "anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."

No, Redcloak clearly can't control Xykon by threatening to destroy his phylactery. But in the right situation, it could conceivably give him crucial leverage. And it's not hard to imagine such a situation arising during the high stakes of a showdown at the final Gate.

It's a bit of a tangent, because I do think the way he freaked out over losing his phylactery suggests that he's become a lot more concerned about it since SoD (or was bluffing then),

Spoiler: SOD Spoilers

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The big difference, of course, is that in SOD he had just become a Lich and was new to the whole concept. He knew what it meant in theory, but not in practice.

In SOD, Redcloak threatened kill him by to destroying the philactary, and Xykon knew destroying the philactary would not immediately kill him.

Then, in the actual comic he was killed, stuck in the philactary, until he started regenerating and then spent several pages regenerating. The process finally finishes here - that's #114 to #193. Obviously, there's no easy way to match comic time with real time, but it looks like a significant time trapped in the philactary (literally unable to move), followed by a faster (but still measurable in days) regeneration cycle. As a result he now knows exacty how vunerable he is after going to his philactary, and is now far more concerned about its safety.

Then Redcloak loses it (initially to a paladin, no less, followed by a class feature). Worse, as Xykon's suspicions of Readcloak grow it becomes more important that it not be under his control.

[AgentofOdd]

After reading through the Darth V saga, a thought comes to mind. With a soul splice, someone could use the spell casting abilities of another person for their own ends. Also, in the V vs Xkyon fight, Redcloak demonstrated a surprising degree of familiarity with this topic. My guess is along with all of the reasons people already listed, Redcloak is holding onto the phylactery because if worst comes to worst and he needs to destroy Xkyon's body (or someone else does it for him), then he could have figured out a way be able to keep the the lich trapped in the phylactery and occasionally use his soul as a spell casting battery. At that point, what Xkyon thinks doesn't matter. He'd truly be reduced to the tool Redcloak keeps claiming he is.

Course, this probably isn't the optimal path to take since Xkyon is more deadly with his own body, but I suspect Redcloak does not care one bit. I'd even go so far as to say Redcloak will greatly prefer having Xkyon as a helpless disembodied voice.

[Snails]

Yep, it's revenge.
Once Xykon completes his part of the ritual Redcloak will have no reason not to destroy him, and very good reasons to want to destroy him.
I believe Redcloak has a plan for destroying Xykon's body immediately after the ritual is concluded. Then while Xykon starts to regenerate he can take the time to gloat over how he has manipulated Xykon for 35 years before destroying the phylactery and sending Xykon's soul on to its final destination.

Redcloak is sometimes a fool, but he is not an idiot, after all. Redcloak's own Plan A involves handing over the control of the Gate to The Dark One, which will immediately put Xykon in a "kill ALL the goblins" mood, for the very good reason he has been betrayed the whole long time. If Redcloak's plan actually succeeds, he has to have a plausible means of dealing with Xykon permanently.

The only reason to not have seized the phylactery is if Redcloak perceives a possible Plan B which involves Xykon being killed and regenerated, the try yet again. Early in this story such was plausible (and we saw it happen once), but down to the last Gate with defenders gathering and the gods themselves purportedly watching, it is a good guess that Team Evil has only one real shot at this.

Redcloak pushed all his chips in, to either seize a Gate for TDO or have the world reset. He tells himself that going all in for an extreme result is the smart and wise move. As we all know, there were once many other options. But at this point, Durkon's offer was his last plausible path where Redcloak is likely to come out a winner. Theoretically he could still decide to work with Durkon, but Redcloak is not one to revisit such questions until it is really too late.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Wouldn't the "dumb god laws" prevent them from taking such direct action on the Material Plane?

I don't mean the gods interfering like that, but that they'd be inclined to wreck the planet like they normally do.

if the snarl is let loose, the threat of the snarl is now more apparent. they might destroy the world to get the souls they need.

Unless they still need to vote on it, which I don't know if thats a god law when the snarl is already unbound.

Thats a grey area I don't know about. Right now they need a vote as the snarl is contained. but if its let loose...

After reading through the Darth V saga, a thought comes to mind. With a soul splice, someone could use the spell casting abilities of another person for their own ends. Also, in the V vs Xkyon fight, Redcloak demonstrated a surprising degree of familiarity with this topic. My guess is along with all of the reasons people already listed, Redcloak is holding onto the phylactery because if worst comes to worst and he needs to destroy Xkyon's body (or someone else does it for him), then he could have figured out a way be able to keep the the lich trapped in the phylactery and occasionally use his soul as a spell casting battery. At that point, what Xkyon thinks doesn't matter. He'd truly be reduced to the tool Redcloak keeps claiming he is.

Course, this probably isn't the optimal path to take since Xkyon is more deadly with his own body, but I suspect Redcloak does not care one bit. I'd even go so far as to say Redcloak will greatly prefer having Xkyon as a helpless disembodied voice.

A soul splice thing? That does sound like a good idea. and if the author were willing to bend the rules to do so, it might make for a good compelling story point.

I like it. I think you answered my initial question.

[Goblin_Priest]

so your saying he is planning on destroying xykon after the plan works? Thats a good point.

My only concern is this: won't the gods retaliate after the fact, the ones not killed? I'd think RC is toast in either situation unless I misunderstood something.

The battle is inevitable. Xykon won't be happy once he realized that Redcloak lied to him about what the ritual actually does. He moved a bishop to prepare a mate in 5 turns. Once the battle does arrive, he needs to be able to keep Xykon dead, should he manage to kill him. Or to otherwise use it as leverage if he fails to kill him.

[Sigako]

Wasn't that ritual supposed to kill both casters in the process? I've read SoD years ago and don't have it myself to check, but it sounded like that for me, if you combine it with Tsukiko's death scene. And, since it's a high-level sacrifice, it most likely circumvents all defenses like a phylactery.
In that case RC will still have his revenge, just posthumously, and Xykon is screwed. In that case RC only has to make Xykon participate, with any kind of leverage, without revealing true nature of the ritual (though I think the lich has already figured it out and is just biding his time).

[Emanick]

Wasn't that ritual supposed to kill both casters in the process? I've read SoD years ago and don't have it myself to check, but it sounded like that for me, if you combine it with Tsukiko's death scene. And, since it's a high-level sacrifice, it most likely circumvents all defenses like a phylactery.
In that case RC will still have his revenge, just posthumously, and Xykon is screwed. In that case RC only has to make Xykon participate, with any kind of leverage, without revealing true nature of the ritual (though I think the lich has already figured it out and is just biding his time).

No, the ritual doesn’t kill either caster. At least, we’ve been given no evidence that it does.

[Metastachydium]

No, the ritual doesn’t kill either caster. At least, we’ve been given no evidence that it does.

Sigako's probably thinking of the crayon panel showing X. and Redcloak killed by the Snarl, which illustrates how trying to control the Snarl would end (rather than what the Ritual does (which does not involve unsealing the Gate and thus releasing the Snarl anyway)).