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    Default Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    So, for the past couple dozen strips I've been thinking a lot about Redcloak's beliefs, motives, and arguments, and there's something I've noticed, something that I didn't realize until recently. If you look at what Redcloak says, he seems to have a very warped opinion of the role of the various gods in Stickworld, and specifically in how those gods relate to racial prejudice. In the first place, I've noticed that he seems to think of "the gods" as a single homogenous group, instead of 30+ entities with differing alignments and personalities and mutually contradictory agendas. Witness, for example, the panels in strip 1207 where he refuses to believe that "gods like Thor or Odin" would sacrifice the dwarves and other "good" races to stop Redcloak. But that's a secondary point, mainly important because of how it contributes to the main thrust of this post: How Redcloak blames "the gods" for anti-goblinoid racism.

    If you look at everything Redcloak says, he seems to believe that there is some kind of divinely endorsed "favored race" class from which goblins have been excluded, and that other races are attacking goblins only because these homogenous "gods" he believes in have given the OK, rather than because the goblins are Evil, or because the adventurers are Evil, or because of complex sociopolitical factors leading to conflict between different nations.

    And as far as I can tell, there is no external evidence that that is the case. There are undoubtedly anti-goblin racists among the population of Stickworld, but as far as I can tell, there is no evidence that any of the gods endorse such prejudice, any more than they endorse Laurin's resentment of the elves, or the prejudice between reptilians and mammals on the Western Continent, or the anti-orc sentiments that Roy ran into at the beginning of OTOoPC.

    Similarly, Redcloak seems to believe that if "the gods" grant goblins this hypothetical "favored race" status, it will prevent other nations from trying to conquer Gobbotopia, even though (for example) the Realm of the Dragon and Azure City were at war with each other in HtPGHS despite both being mostly human nations. And when Durkon started talking about specific deals, about getting recognition from individual nations, establishing trade relations, Redcloak rejected anything short of "the gods" fixing everything in one big deus ex machina.
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    I think it all hinges on whether or not you believe Redcloak's crayon narrative in Start of Darkness: that "monstrous" humanoids were created to be XP fodder for the gods' clerics and paladins. If you believe that's true, then everything by extension is indeed prejudice by all the gods. If you don't think that's how it truly went down, it's hard to point to solid evidence of monstrous humanoids being forsaken by the gods...beyond lots of maybe-evidence baked into average racism & societal disadvantages in the comic (like the examples you gave).

    The other thing I'll say - and this isn't in support of Redcloak's viewpoint, merely to explain it - is that if you're in the "out" group (the goblinoids), and you feel completely powerless against the whims & actions of the "in" group (the gods), you're going to be more likely to view them all as a united group.

    Whether or not the invading army has any competing interests or minor feuds between their generals, they're still going to feel like a unified army as they run roughshod over your meager defenses.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-01-29 at 10:35 AM. Reason: a word

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    The way I see it, RC was in the middle of the worst moment of his life (or at least one of the worst) when he learned about what he believed to be the background behind the very same moment, from the highest authority possible even, of course he was going to believe it.

    I don't know if it is true for OotS, but I have the impression that goblins are legal targets for parties in their adventures without much doubt having to be risen (e.g. Dungeons of Dorukan), while even a bandit camp would only get the same treatment from Belkar.
    Also while the hobgoblin race was able to prosper, their lands did seem like to be mostly rock, probably not the best environment.

    When RC stands almost at the gates of Azure City, ordering the attack, I believe he is attacking the Sapphire Guard that was behind the worst loss he has ever experienced, not even knowing if this version of the Sapphire Guard and everyone who were part of it even exists anymore.
    We learn most of the nobles manages to flee to sea, and I won't be surprised if some of them aren't retired former Sapphire Guards (and former Paladins!) who could have been part of the attack of RC's village.

    I don't believe RC himself has that much knowledge of the every day life of a goblin since he took the mantle of the crimson mantle, so when he speaks on behalf of all goblins, I think he is very misguided, but I don't think the "evidence" he has from which he forms his opinions are incorrect, rather they are treated poorly, like a judge that sentence someone because deep down he simply don't like this person (or species in this instance).
    Last edited by BaronOfHell; 2021-01-29 at 12:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Redcloak blames all gods and all of their worshippers for what a small, very specific, group did?

    When you begin with any premise, (the gods created goblins for XP,) you can 'prove' it by extrapolating from any evidence.

    Spoiler
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    The SG attacked his village to eliminate knowledge and evidence of the rifts, not for the exp.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Recloak is an eternal child whose maturing process was frozen when he was a teenager by donning the Crimson Mantle (as Right-Eye stated in SoD).

    Redcloak doesn't understands how the world of adult people works, and thus instead of trying to work hard to improve things (like Right-Eye or the Former Hobgoblin Supreme Leader attempted, and like Durkon just proposed), he wants mommny and daddy (the Dark One) to force Reality to bend on Redcloak's dream world.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    I don't believe it is stated that RC knows why the SG attacked his village.

    Also TDO's claims is a proof. It is not a proof in the mathematical sense, but this isn't mathematics.

    Anyway otherwise RC's line when he attacked Azure City doesn't make any sense to me if it is not related to the SG's attack on his family.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Redcloak blames all gods and all of their worshippers for what a small, very specific, group did?
    Not a claim I have made, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if he did. Like you say yourself, once you believe everyone is against you, it becomes easy to blame anyone for anything, at least indirectly.
    Last edited by BaronOfHell; 2021-01-29 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronOfHell View Post
    I don't believe it is stated that RC knows why the SG attacked his village.
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    I think he does. The previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle tells Redcloak (either directly or while Redcloak is standing next to him, I don't remember exactly) that the Sapphire Guard came to destroy him because he's the Bearer, just like they did for previous Bearers. That is almost certainly an accurate statement, and Redcloak would have remembered it.

    Whether he understands the reason for all the "collateral damage" is less clear. I'm not entirely sure I understand it, to be honest.
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    The Crayons of Time blatantly casts the gods in the role of game designers/masters, with for example Monkey ruining the knights-and-wizards theme with demands of ninja. It's not all they are in the story of the OOTS but it is part of it. And in that angle, Redcloak is right. Why do goblins exist? Because Tolkien needed someone for his heroes to fight. Why are there goblins in fantasy roleplaying games? So that your player characters have someoone to fight and grow stronger. The comic is, among other things, a reflexion on fantasy in general and ttrpg

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Redcloak blames all gods and all of their worshippers for what a small, very specific, group did?

    When you begin with any premise, (the gods created goblins for XP,) you can 'prove' it by extrapolating from any evidence.

    Spoiler
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    The SG attacked his village to eliminate knowledge and evidence of the rifts, not for the exp.
    The exact reasons for which each adventurer attack goblins isn't the point. The point is that the gods are apparently fine with the wholesale slaughter of goblins because, at least according to the Dark One and from a Doylist perspective, that's what they're there for.
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Pandora, the box is opening again!

    There have been a couple of lengthy threads about whether or not anti-goblin prejudice is an issue in Stickworld and how much that might justify Redcloak's actions if it is. The threads usually get locked after a while because people can't avoid comparing the situation to real world racism and things get too heated.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    I think he does. The previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle tells Redcloak (either directly or while Redcloak is standing next to him, I don't remember exactly) that the Sapphire Guard came to destroy him because he's the Bearer, just like they did for previous Bearers. That is almost certainly an accurate statement, and Redcloak would have remembered it.

    Whether he understands the reason for all the "collateral damage" is less clear. I'm not entirely sure I understand it, to be honest.
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    Yes, Redcloak's master was speaking directly to him. As for the reason for the collateral damage, well...
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Redcloak has the Players Handbook and the DMG and probably even an old copy of Keep on the Borderlands.

    He sees what the gods wrote. He understands the world they imagined, and his role in it. He’s not wrong.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-01-29 at 04:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    That may have been where it started out. But blaming the current situation of specific goblins on what happened hundreds of years ago... there are too many intervening random chances and choices to draw a straight line from A to B and say, "This and only this is the reason for our current predicament."

    And as Jason says, this has a lot in common with IRL issues, where history is a root cause, but cannot possibly be the sole root cause, for any given individual's current problems. And that's all I will have to say on that.
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    there is another factor that people seem to forget in these discussions:

    the gods are affected by peoples belief. Loki literally cannot tell the truth unless he specifically rubbing it in Thor's face. Thor was once a redhead but became blonde, and Odin is still recovering from the beliefs of the last world.

    therefore deities are not entirely free from their mortal followers wishes and thus reflect in some way their viewpoints, wants, desires, fears and so on. not entirely, but to a certain extent this applies to any god, even TDO or that one monster god that the orc high priest represents at the Godsmoot.

    if TDO is so focused on enacting the plan, its because on some level the goblins want him to be. they may not know the specifics but they do know how they are treated and thus how it manifests in their deity is important.

    at the same time, the same cannot be ignored for any other deity. the deity may command, but the deity also obeys. however the deities also transcend in some ways, the boundaries of any given world they create. they're clearly able to remember and maintain their identities throughout the eons of destroyed worlds. they have room to act and do their thing but not enough to go against what their followers believe about them, and those beliefs can remain long after those people are dead, as with Odin's current state.

    Therefore its very possible that the current deities are highly determined by the thoughts and beliefs of the previous world, and that the previous world was thus much like the current one. whats different seems mainly to be how long its managed to last, the appearance of a new deity, TDO. therefore if one was to cast blame on the gods they'd have to cast blame on the previous world made for their beliefs making them into their current form as well, at the very least. but the goblins have only themselves to blame for how TDO is acting.
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    confused Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Why do goblins exist? Because Tolkien needed someone for his heroes to fight.
    This is oversimplified and largely incorrect. Tolkien didn't just create goblins (and orcs, he uses the terms interchangably) out of nowhere so his heroes could have someone to kill and look heroic. Tolkien's nature of Evil is that it cannot create. It can only pervert and degrade that which Good has created. Goblins were elves, once. They were captured by Morgoth (a being a bajillion times more powerful than wimpy Sauron) and tortured and malformed until they were naught but a parody of elves. Can goblins be redeemed, or are they permanently damned? That's something that Tolkien had a lot of trouble with, and never resolved before his death. The story of the creation of the orcs, in chibi form (start at the bottom and scroll up).
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
    This is oversimplified and largely incorrect. Tolkien didn't just create goblins (and orcs, he uses the terms interchangably) out of nowhere so his heroes could have someone to kill and look heroic. Tolkien's nature of Evil is that it cannot create. It can only pervert and degrade that which Good has created. Goblins were elves, once. They were captured by Morgoth (a being a bajillion times more powerful than wimpy Sauron) and tortured and malformed until they were naught but a parody of elves. Can goblins be redeemed, or are they permanently damned? That's something that Tolkien had a lot of trouble with, and never resolved before his death. The story of the creation of the orcs, in chibi form (start at the bottom and scroll up).
    Yes it is simplified, bit it is essentially correct. I am not talking about the diegetic creation of the orcs (which is entirely besides the point) but the reason why Tolkien wrote the race in the first place. As you said Tolkien struggled until his death with the issue of the goblins being innately damned. Do you know why he still had them in his writings? Because he needed his Dark Lords to have armies. He quite literally needed his heroes to have someone to fight.

    As for him not creating them out of nowhere, while it's true that they were mosters in myths and tales before he was thz first to have them form armies and do battle with mankind.
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yes it is simplified, bit it is essentially correct. I am not talking about the diegetic creation of the orcs (which is entirely besides the point) but the reason why Tolkien wrote the race in the first place. As you said Tolkien struggled until his death with the issue of the goblins being innately damned. Do you know why he still had them in his writings? Because he needed his Dark Lords to have armies. He quite literally needed his heroes to have someone to fight.

    As for him not creating them out of nowhere, while it's true that they were mosters in myths and tales before he was thz first to have them form armies and do battle with mankind.
    Fyraltari is perfectly correct.
    The first of Tolkien's developed stories was the Fall of Gondolin, and it had to Fall to somebody.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    He believes the gods have it out for him (and other goblins) because the group that attacks his village is not a random wandering adventurer party. The Sapphire Guard is essentially the Southern gods' strike team against mortal plane threats, and in SOD that's what Redcloak witnessed. And it's not the first time the Guard has led mass attacks, nor is it the last.

    It's like if a group of, I don't know, the Northern gods' clerics (that are all dwarves or whatever) came into Cliffport and killed Julia, Eric, and Sara right in front of Roy, and then killed all the humans in Cliffport, and also these clerics previously killed Eugene and Horace or something. Redcloak's conclusion isn't likely to be 100% true (because the TDO himself is very much full of susceptibility) but it didn't come out of nowhere.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    It's like if a group of, I don't know, the Northern gods' clerics (that are all dwarves or whatever) came into Cliffport and killed Julia, Eric, and Sara right in front of Roy, and then killed all the humans in Cliffport, and also these clerics previously killed Eugene and Horace or something. Redcloak's conclusion isn't likely to be 100% true (because the TDO himself is very much full of susceptibility) but it didn't come out of nowhere.
    Of course, the difference there is that Roy's family didn't live in the same small village as the high priest of an evil god bent on blackmailing the other gods by controlling a god-slaying abomination, which plan endangers the very existence of the world and everyone in it. And Roy himself didn't join the priesthood of said god. But, yeah, other than that it would kind of be the same.
    Last edited by Jason; 2021-01-31 at 10:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    I have a little conspiracy theory - recently developed - that the goblins willingly rejected the gods that created the world, and Redcloak's Mantle vision is, as suggested, a lie. My evidence:

    In strip 275, the elven gods are explicitly mentioned - alongside the Dark One, even - as having been created after the world's creation. But the elves were definitely created by the gods. So there's precedent for a created race rejecting the worship of the main pantheons in favor of their own; the Dark One is different because he's specifically antagonistic, rather than ambivalent, toward the creator gods.

    Besides goblinoids, Redcloak's recounting of his Mantle vision includes three specific races: kobolds, lizardfolk, and orcs. Though the Giggles-worshipping orcs claim to have no god, the High Priest of Tyr is at least half-orc, meaning orcs can find acceptance among the main pantheons. Lizardfolk are the major non-human race in the Western Continent, enjoying a much more privileged position than goblinoids in the North and seemingly giving the lie to the idea that the gods consider them less valuable than humans; but even ignoring that, considering Malack at least publicly performs being a lizardfolk, it seems that clerics of the Western gods are unremarkable among them. And despite not having seen much of the worship practices of kobolds, Malack says in strip 737 that Tiamat - a Western god - "prefers" kobolds over lizardfolk, and the one kobold we know to be a cleric with god-given power is her Oracle.

    It's bits and pieces and a lot of reading between the lines - I did call it a conspiracy theory, after all - but this suggests to me that Redcloak got a very biased (or potentially fraudulent) vision from a god who already had beef with the major pantheons by the time he donned the Mantle. It's still possible that goblins really were made as XP fodder, but considering the other holes in that vision, I find that increasingly unlikely.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Of course, the difference there is that Roy's family didn't live in the same small village as the high priest of an evil god bent on blackmailing the other gods by controlling a god-slaying abomination, which plan endangers the very existencd of the world and everyone in it. And Roy himself didn't join the priesthood of said god. But, yeah, other than that it would kind of be the same.
    Doesn't account for the non-High-priest goblins getting killed.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    In strip 275, the elven gods are explicitly mentioned - alongside the Dark One, even - as having been created after the world's creation. But the elves were definitely created by the gods. So there's precedent for a created race rejecting the worship of the main pantheons in favor of their own; the Dark One is different because he's specifically antagonistic, rather than ambivalent, toward the creator gods.
    The elves worship Western gods alongside their own...which is presumably why the elven gods vote as part of the Western Pantheon.
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Doesn't account for the non-High-priest goblins getting killed.
    It doesn't, but it's kind of a leap to go from "paladins massacred civilians during a divinely sanctioned raid" to "all the gods specifically created our race as fodder".

    Of course I think Redcloak is getting this idea from the Dark One's religion, and the raid just gives Redcloak every reason to trust TDO over other sources of information.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    One thing to remember is the TDO started out as a mortal goblin-oid. Yes, he was purple, but he otherwise had mortal experiences. And one of those experiences was getting murdered by leaders of the other races when he met with them for peace.
    After ascending to god-hood, TDO has had limited interactions with other gods, and since he is alone in his pantheon, any of his interactions with other gods have the risk of forming a “two-color rift.”
    How can we expect Red Cloak to have a more expansive understanding of the other gods when his own god has the same perspective?

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Doesn't account for the non-High-priest goblins getting killed.
    Some additional light is thrown on the subject in How The Paladin Got His Scar.
    HtPGHS makes it clear that the paladins in that raid didn't know that the Crimson Mantle is an artifact designed by the Dark One to impart knowledge of the Plan to his high priest. Which means that as far as they knew, any goblin that worshipped the Dark One could be told about the Plan by their diety and was therefore a potential threat to the world's continued existence, not just the bearer of the Crimson Mantle. If any goblin worshipper is a potential threat to the world's survival then it makes more sense to eliminate any village of Dark One worshippers with an active priesthood.
    It's still a callous act, but the potential costs of not eliminating all potential threats are the world and everyone in it.
    If the Southern Gods had told them that "the Crimson Mantle and its current bearer are the real threat", then they may have targeted only the Crimson Mantle rather than the entire village, but for whatever reason (possibly being over-cautious about who learns about the Snarl) they didn't say this.
    Of course, the current leader of the paladins in HtPGHS makes it clear that he at least probably would still have eliminated all of the goblins, despite knowing the Crimson Mantle is the real threat; but it also makes it clear that the other paladins under his command, once they understand the true situation, would not.
    Last edited by Jason; 2021-01-31 at 11:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    All this potential evil stuff reminds me of Kore from the Goblins comic.

    Anyway my impression is that at least some of the Paladins who raids RedCloak's village aren't only doing it because they believe they must, they're having a jolly time doing this. In my opinion this take away from the "unfortunately we must", which in my opinion in itself doesn't mean their actions are good or even neutral, and goes directly to lack of respect for the sanctity of life.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Some additional light is thrown on the subject in How The Paladin Got His Scar.
    HtPGHS makes it clear that the paladins in that raid didn't know that the Crimson Mantle is an artifact designed by the Dark One to impart knowledge of the Plan to his high priest. Which means that as far as they knew, any goblin that worshipped the Dark One could be told about the Plan by their diety and was therefore a potential threat to the world's continued existence, not just the bearer of the Crimson Mantle. If any goblin worshipper is a potential threat to the world's survival then it makes more sense to eliminate any village of Dark One worshippers with an active priesthood.
    It's still a callous act, but the potential costs of not eliminating all potential threats are the world and everyone in it.
    If the Southern Gods had told them that "the Crimson Mantle and its current bearer are the real threat", then they may have targeted only the Crimson Mantle rather than the entire village, but for whatever reason (possibly being over-cautious about who learns about the Snarl) they didn't say this.
    The Twelve didn't tell the SG anything about the Dark One and the Mantle. Goblins and and PC races have been at war since time immemorial. A previous bearer of the Crimson Mantle lead an attack on Soon's gate so the SG knew that the church of the Dark One (or at least a goblin cult whose leader is called the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle) has designs for their Gate. Killing the Bearer and his lieutenants made sense, "exterminating" (their word) the entire village children included didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by BaronOfHell View Post
    All this potential evil stuff reminds me of Kore from the Goblins comic.

    Anyway my impression is that at least some of the Paladins who raids RedCloak's village aren't only doing it because they believe they must, they're having a jolly time doing this. In my opinion this take away from the "unfortunately we must", which in my opinion in itself doesn't mean their actions are good or even neutral, and goes directly to lack of respect for the sanctity of life.
    This.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronOfHell View Post
    Anyway my impression is that at least some of the Paladins who raids RedCloak's village aren't only doing it because they believe they must, they're having a jolly time doing this. In my opinion this take away from the "unfortunately we must", which in my opinion in itself doesn't mean their actions are good or even neutral, and goes directly to lack of respect for the sanctity of life.
    Yes. Paladins seem to get away with much more unlawful and evil behavior in Stickworld and remain paladins than they ever would be able to in any game I were running.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    The Giant did say that some of them may not have gotten away with their questionable behaviour.
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Redcloak kills thousands and he's given a pass because he has a just cause. The paladins kill hundreds and are condemned even though their cause is the survival of the world?

    I suppose this is where I diverge from the majority viewpoint. Two wrongs can't make a right.

    The paladins may have done a lot of evil, but this in no way mitigates or excuses or justifies the evil Redcloak does. Revenge is always an evil motive.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Paladins have "May not commit an evil act or they will lose their power" built into the class.

    Redcloak doesn't.

    That's why people focus more on "did these particular paladins lose their powers or not" whereas this kind of question isn't even relevant to what Redcloak does.
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