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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The Giant did say that some of them may not have gotten away with their questionable behaviour.
    The standards to which Rich holds his paladins before they Fall (at least in the comic) is such that im not sure much meaningful connection can be made between them and actual D&D paladins. the idea of "technically Lawful Good" is very much a metagame concept that cant really coherently apply in a narrative-driven story that lacks players and other external judges of character who are willing to shrug and move on due to not caring enough to start a fight with real people over imaginary orcs.

    It is, at best, very much a square peg and round hole issue.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2021-01-31 at 01:55 PM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The standards to which Rich holds his paladins before they Fall (at least in the comic) is such that im not sure much meaningful connection can be made between them and actual D&D paladins.
    Actual D&D paladins don't exist. Only players of D&D paladins exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    the idea of "technically Lawful Good" is very much a metagame concept that cant really coherently apply in a narrative-driven story that lacks players and other external judges of character who are willing to shrug and move on due to not caring enough to start a fight with real people over imaginary orcs.
    The story focuses rather heavily on this kind of metagame.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-01-31 at 02:01 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Redcloak kills thousands and he's given a pass because he has a just cause. The paladins kill hundreds and are condemned even though their cause is the survival of the world?

    I suppose this is where I diverge from the majority viewpoint. Two wrongs can't make a right.

    The paladins may have done a lot of evil, but this in no way mitigates or excuses or justifies the evil Redcloak does. Revenge is always an evil motive.
    No one has given Redcloak a pass, what are you on about?
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Actual D&D paladins don't exist. Only players of D&D paladins exist.



    The story focuses rather heavily on this kind of metagame.
    Im aware. And i dont think it does a particularly good job of it. Theres no "pretending" to be Lawful Good to the forces of reality in a setting, you just are.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2021-01-31 at 02:17 PM.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The Giant did say that some of them may not have gotten away with their questionable behaviour.
    Well, the paladin cited already as seeming to enjoy killing goblins in Start of Darkness gets killed in the next panel, so she at least didn't get away with it. None of the other paladins pictured are smiling while they attack the village.
    Last edited by Jason; 2021-01-31 at 02:51 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    It's been a while since I read SOD, but does it explain *how* The Dark One found out goblins were xp fodder?

    That said, I think it kinda undercuts Richs theme of the portrayal of D&D races having uncomfortable parallels with bigotry if Redcloaks vision is completely unfounded. Also, the vision is a rug that we've only seen in print form. It's only been hinted at in the online comic. If Rich was going for a rug-pull, he'd have to establish the rug was there to begin with, which at this stage would be clumsy.

    Maybe the Gods really were that cruel, and we just have to deal with that.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    It is simply suggested that this knowledge came to him with ascension to godhood - that it "opened his eyes" to this information.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    It's been a while since I read SOD, but does it explain *how* The Dark One found out goblins were xp fodder?

    That said, I think it kinda undercuts Richs theme of the portrayal of D&D races having uncomfortable parallels with bigotry if Redcloaks vision is completely unfounded. Also, the vision is a rug that we've only seen in print form. It's only been hinted at in the online comic. If Rich was going for a rug-pull, he'd have to establish the rug was there to begin with, which at this stage would be clumsy.

    Maybe the Gods really were that cruel, and we just have to deal with that.
    I disagree. Anti-goblin bigotry can still be a thing even if TDO and Redcloak are wrong about its source.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Fair enough - I guess since the dwarves don't have their own pantheon (just Dvalin, as far as I can tell, who's a demigod) and just worship the Northern gods, I figured the elven pantheon must be separate and they got called in as a tiebreaker for the West the same way the demigods got called in for the North. My mistake.

    My second point still stands, though - if there's any kind of divine prejudice toward certain races, it's definitely not happening the way it was depicted in the Mantle vision, otherwise lizardfolk and kobolds wouldn't hold the societal standing that they do in the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    No one has given Redcloak a pass, what are you on about?
    This is almost certainly bleedover from another thread that's been going on (which some of the posters here, myself and brian 333 included, were involved in) arguing over Redcloak's ultimate morality/culpability in his own turn toward evil given the injustice in his backstory. It's a related topic and it got, if not aggressive, definitely tense. I think the argument is just trying to migrate here since the activity on that thread has stopped.
    Last edited by quinron; 2021-01-31 at 09:06 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    This is almost certainly bleedover from another thread that's been going on (which some of the posters here, myself and brian 333 included, were involved in) arguing over Redcloak's ultimate morality/culpability in his own turn toward evil given the injustice in his backstory. It's a related topic and it got, if not aggressive, definitely tense. I think the argument is just trying to migrate here since the activity on that thread has stopped.
    Every thread that discusses Redcloak's backstory eventually has one or more posters who argue that anti-goblin racism either mitigates or outright justifies Redcloak's role in destroying the sapphire guard and conquering Azure City.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Every thread that discusses Redcloak's backstory eventually has one or more posters who argue that anti-goblin racism either mitigates or outright justifies Redcloak's role in destroying the sapphire guard and conquering Azure City.
    It atonishes me that there are people who not only thinks that Gobbotopia has a right to exist, but also that it's continual existence is a necessity for a proper conclusion of this story.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2021-02-01 at 09:53 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronOfHell View Post
    The way I see it, RC was in the middle of the worst moment of his life (or at least one of the worst) when he learned about what he believed to be the background behind the very same moment, from the highest authority possible even, of course he was going to believe it.
    This is something I'd never fully connected in my head: were I Redcloak, that experience of "entire family massacred, receive sacred message explaining the situation, receive divine orders" would be pretty hard to ever let go of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Of course, the difference there is that Roy's family didn't live in the same small village as the high priest of an evil god bent on blackmailing the other gods by controlling a god-slaying abomination, which plan endangers the very existence of the world and everyone in it. And Roy himself didn't join the priesthood of said god. But, yeah, other than that it would kind of be the same.
    I know you're not actually justifying the wholesale slaughter of goblin civilians and children, but the rhetorical device you're using kind of implies that. By nature of his knowledge and goals, the former High Priest was a threat to reality (though given that he was taking the time to visit a small village and ordain some minor clerics, he seemed to be doing much more "guiding the flock" than Redcloak ever has). That threat does not extend to ANY goblins that didn't know about The Plan. Of course the paladins would assume all the goblins were "in" on The Plan. The fact that they were not makes the scene that much more tragic, and drives home the injustice Redcloak experienced.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Redcloak kills thousands and he's given a pass because he has a just cause. The paladins kill hundreds and are condemned even though their cause is the survival of the world?

    I suppose this is where I diverge from the majority viewpoint. Two wrongs can't make a right.

    The paladins may have done a lot of evil, but this in no way mitigates or excuses or justifies the evil Redcloak does. Revenge is always an evil motive.
    Nobody is giving Redcloak "a pass". His actions are evil. He is evil. The attack on Azure City was evil.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-02-01 at 10:04 AM. Reason: capitalizing The Plan

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    It atonishes me that there are people who not only thinks that Gobbotopia has a right to exist, but also that it's continual existence is a necessity for a proper conclusion of this story.
    Why wouldn’t gobbotopia have a right to exist?

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Why wouldn’t gobbotopia have a right to exist?
    Presumably because it's a product of conquest? Territorial aggression is a tale as old as time, but it's often glossed over in fantasy stories: nobody wants the "Good" kingdom to rest on the ruins of another invaded & subjugated kingdom, so "Good" kingdoms are either millenia old, formed from an alliance of smaller kingdoms, or reclaimed from some dark obviously evil Sauron-type tyrant.

    You don't often see a nation attacking another nation solely for territorial reasons in fantasy stories -- and when one does, it's almost never portrayed in a good light by the narrative.

    I wonder, The Pilgrim, do you think the warring nations on the Western Continent (the ones not controlled by the Vector Legion, of course) are legitimate? I'd argue they exist for many of the same reasons but I also don't have a well-formed answer to my own question.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Gobbotopia's economy is also dependent on enslaved humans.
    Last edited by Jason; 2021-02-01 at 01:43 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by jinjitsu View Post
    This is almost certainly bleedover from another thread that's been going on (which some of the posters here, myself and brian 333 included, were involved in) arguing over Redcloak's ultimate morality/culpability in his own turn toward evil given the injustice in his backstory. It's a related topic and it got, if not aggressive, definitely tense. I think the argument is just trying to migrate here since the activity on that thread has stopped.
    Right, I may have been a bit jumpy but Brian333's claim to be in the minority for not "giving Redcloak a pass" when the position on most people here reguarding Redcloak and the pre-O-Chul Sapphire Guard would be aptly summarised as "a plague on both your houses" rubs me the wrong way.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    It atonishes me that there are people who not only thinks that Gobbotopia has a right to exist, but also that it's continual existence is a necessity for a proper conclusion of this story.
    It astonishes me that not more people agree. There have been exactly three things wrong with Gobbotopia:
    1) Team Evil
    2) The Azurites were left homelandless
    3) slavery.

    1 and 2 have been fixed and I see no reason 3 couldn't. Meanwhile, to our knowledge, Gobbotopia is the first goblinoid settlement to have standind amongst the other nations. If the wars between the goblins and PC races are to stop, a continued Gobbotopia is a step on the right direction. Hell, even Durkon thinks so.

    So what are your arguments for it not deserving to exist?
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Gobbotopia's economy is also dependent on enslaved humans.
    Sure. Slavery is wrong. They should stop doing that.

    But I don’t see how it negates their right to exist?

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Gobbotopia's economy is also dependent on enslaved humans.
    Since Durkon included the condition "Gobbotopia releases their slaves" in the peace talks and proposed treaty, I had assumed any discussion here of Gobbotopia's legitimacy or continued existence wouldn't factor in its current policy on slavery. That was probably too big of an assumption.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    So what are your arguments for it not deserving to exist?
    20.000 hobgoblins enslaving 400.000 humans*

    *(Take or give. Pre-war azurite population was 530k, with about half living in Azure City itself. Humans suffered 10.000 casualties at the battle. The Refugee Fleet clearly wasn't big enough to carry more than a few thousand).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It astonishes me that not more people agree. There have been exactly three things wrong with Gobbotopia:
    1) Team Evil
    2) The Azurites were left homelandless
    3) slavery.

    1 and 2 have been fixed and I see no reason 3 couldn't.
    Point #2 hasn't been fixed. Most of the azurite population remains in Gobbotopia, enslaved by the Hobgoblins.

    Point #1 isn't an issue. Team Evil is gone, Gobbotopia remains a brutal slaver regime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Meanwhile, to our knowledge, Gobbotopia is the first goblinoid settlement to have standind amongst the other nations. If the wars between the goblins and PC races are to stop, a continued Gobbotopia is a step on the right direction. Hell, even Durkon thinks so.
    Durkon doesn't thinks so. Read panel #2 here

    "Clearly, I dinnae think ye should keep Azure City".

    So that's another fact you got wrong.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2021-02-01 at 03:10 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Durkon doesn't thinks so. Read panel #2 here
    "Clearly, I dinnae think ye should keep Azure City".
    Last time I checked, Durkon is a comic strip character who can be and often is wrong. If you’re going to appeal to authority, I’m going to need a bigger authority, like maybe Tarquin.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-02-01 at 03:13 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Last time I checked, Durkon is a comic strip character who can be and often is wrong. If you’re going to appeal to authority, I’m going to need a bigger authority, like maybe Tarquin
    What the Durkon character says in the comic strip is indeed authority on what the Durkon character believes.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2021-02-01 at 03:16 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    So wait... there are seriously people who believe that Gobbotopia doesn’t have the right to exist?

    This is an actual position taken by real people on this thread? This isn’t just performance argument, for the sake of argument?

    Clearly I am in the wrong thread. This one doesn’t make a lick of sense to me. I’m going to go back to arguing about Star Wars, or something that doesn’t bang so hard against RL
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-02-01 at 03:18 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    So wait... there are seriously people who believe that Gobbotopia doesnÂ’t have the right to exist?

    This is an actual position taken by real people on this thread? This isnÂ’t just performance argument, for the sake of argument?

    Clearly I am in the wrong thread. This one doesnÂ’t make a lick of sense to me.
    Given that the position you defend is contrary to all basic ethical grounds, I'd say yes, of course there are people who believe Gobbotopia doesn't have the right to exist.

    Good luck trying to justify brutal conquest and enslavement of a whole nation.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2021-02-01 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Durkon doesn't thinks so. Read panel #2 here

    "Clearly, I dinnae think ye should keep Azure City".

    So that's another fact you got wrong.
    Except he then immediately follows it up by saying "but thar's jack squat we can do aboot it." Later in that same page, Durkon is the one who proposes the peace treaty wherein Gobbotopia remains (but releases its slaves). He suggests that the existence of Gobbotopia might even lead to better treatment of goblins worldwide:

    Mebbe...if'n everyone's tradin' an' dealin' wit ye all that time, someday down tha line they'll stop seein' ye as monsters.

    Mebbe na. I dunno. People're stubborn.
    I think it's fair to say Durkon is not morally opposed to the idea of Gobbotopia.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-02-01 at 03:21 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Except he then immediately follows it up by saying "but thar's jack squat we can do aboot it." Later in that same page, Durkon is the one who proposes the peace treaty wherein Gobbotopia remains. He suggests that the existence of Gobbotopia might even lead to better treatment of goblins worldwide...
    Which doesn't means Durkon agrees that Gobbotopia's continual existence is right. He is bargaining, and he is making a concession to strike a deal, as he literally stated.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2021-02-01 at 03:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Given that the position you defend is contrary to all basic ethical grounds, I'd say yes, of course there are people who believe Gobbotopia doesn't have the right to exist.
    In stickverse, every race started out with the land given to them by the gods.

    Either people have the right to live where they want, even in land that was was once owned by other people, or they only have the right to live in land given to them by the gods.

    If the former, then goblins have the right to live there, even if other goblins did steal it (I’m not saying goblins have the right to steal. I’m saying that people have the right to live where they want, regardless of if it was stolen ).

    If the later, then goblins are oppressed by the gods to live only undesirable lands.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-02-01 at 03:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    In stickverse, every race started out with the land given to them by the gods.
    That is the story the Dark One's high priest tells potential allies, yes. But is it true?

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Either people have the right to live where they want, even in land that was was once owned by other people, or they only have the right to live in land given to them by the gods.
    People have the right to live where they want.

    People don't have the right to steal property and enslave the former owners. Which is basically what Gobbotopia is about.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    I would have thought Gobbotopia not having a right to exist was ridiculous before but if those numbers are right that kind of changes things.

    Like, what if Gobbotopia did accept Durkon's terms and end human slavery. Those 400,000 azurites get booted out of their homes and become refugees? They're forced to stay and be ruled by the brutal regime that just stopped killing and enslaving them? Those options seem a lot less fair than the 20,000 goblins just returning to homes they left a few months ago.

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    Default Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    I would have thought Gobbotopia not having a right to exist was ridiculous before but if those numbers are right that kind of changes things.

    Like, what if Gobbotopia did accept Durkon's terms and end human slavery. Those 400,000 azurites get booted out of their homes and become refugees? They're forced to stay and be ruled by the brutal regime that just stopped killing and enslaving them? Those options seem a lot less fair than the 20,000 goblins just returning to homes they left a few months ago.
    My numbers are a gross estimation. But the truth is, there is a huge number of human slaves in Gobbotopia, and they likely exceed the goblinoid population, given the pre-war numbers.

    I don't know were Mr Burlew is going with that part of his story. But I know he still presents the azurites as the good guys and the goblinoids as mainly evil. I don't know how The Giant plans to end his story, but the Durkon-Redcloak negotiation was Redcloak's big chance to solidify Gobbotopia, and Redcloak rejected it.

    Gobbotopia wasn't the Hobgoblin's dream. It was Redcloak's. If the hobbos are forced to give up on human slavery, and thus are left with no workforce, they might be happy to grab all the loot and return to their hilly mountains, instead of standing and fight for far more land that they can farm or defend. Who knows?

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