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2021-01-31, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
The standards to which Rich holds his paladins before they Fall (at least in the comic) is such that im not sure much meaningful connection can be made between them and actual D&D paladins. the idea of "technically Lawful Good" is very much a metagame concept that cant really coherently apply in a narrative-driven story that lacks players and other external judges of character who are willing to shrug and move on due to not caring enough to start a fight with real people over imaginary orcs.
It is, at best, very much a square peg and round hole issue.Last edited by Keltest; 2021-01-31 at 01:55 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-01-31, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-01-31 at 02:01 PM.
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2021-01-31, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-01-31, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Last edited by Keltest; 2021-01-31 at 02:17 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-01-31, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Last edited by Jason; 2021-01-31 at 02:51 PM.
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2021-01-31, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
It's been a while since I read SOD, but does it explain *how* The Dark One found out goblins were xp fodder?
That said, I think it kinda undercuts Richs theme of the portrayal of D&D races having uncomfortable parallels with bigotry if Redcloaks vision is completely unfounded. Also, the vision is a rug that we've only seen in print form. It's only been hinted at in the online comic. If Rich was going for a rug-pull, he'd have to establish the rug was there to begin with, which at this stage would be clumsy.
Maybe the Gods really were that cruel, and we just have to deal with that.
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2021-01-31, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
It is simply suggested that this knowledge came to him with ascension to godhood - that it "opened his eyes" to this information.
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2021-01-31, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-01-31, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Fair enough - I guess since the dwarves don't have their own pantheon (just Dvalin, as far as I can tell, who's a demigod) and just worship the Northern gods, I figured the elven pantheon must be separate and they got called in as a tiebreaker for the West the same way the demigods got called in for the North. My mistake.
My second point still stands, though - if there's any kind of divine prejudice toward certain races, it's definitely not happening the way it was depicted in the Mantle vision, otherwise lizardfolk and kobolds wouldn't hold the societal standing that they do in the West.
This is almost certainly bleedover from another thread that's been going on (which some of the posters here, myself and brian 333 included, were involved in) arguing over Redcloak's ultimate morality/culpability in his own turn toward evil given the injustice in his backstory. It's a related topic and it got, if not aggressive, definitely tense. I think the argument is just trying to migrate here since the activity on that thread has stopped.Last edited by quinron; 2021-01-31 at 09:06 PM.
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2021-01-31, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
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2021-02-01, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
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2021-02-01, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
This is something I'd never fully connected in my head: were I Redcloak, that experience of "entire family massacred, receive sacred message explaining the situation, receive divine orders" would be pretty hard to ever let go of.
I know you're not actually justifying the wholesale slaughter of goblin civilians and children, but the rhetorical device you're using kind of implies that. By nature of his knowledge and goals, the former High Priest was a threat to reality (though given that he was taking the time to visit a small village and ordain some minor clerics, he seemed to be doing much more "guiding the flock" than Redcloak ever has). That threat does not extend to ANY goblins that didn't know about The Plan. Of course the paladins would assume all the goblins were "in" on The Plan. The fact that they were not makes the scene that much more tragic, and drives home the injustice Redcloak experienced.
Nobody is giving Redcloak "a pass". His actions are evil. He is evil. The attack on Azure City was evil.Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-02-01 at 10:04 AM. Reason: capitalizing The Plan
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2021-02-01, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-01, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Presumably because it's a product of conquest? Territorial aggression is a tale as old as time, but it's often glossed over in fantasy stories: nobody wants the "Good" kingdom to rest on the ruins of another invaded & subjugated kingdom, so "Good" kingdoms are either millenia old, formed from an alliance of smaller kingdoms, or reclaimed from some dark obviously evil Sauron-type tyrant.
You don't often see a nation attacking another nation solely for territorial reasons in fantasy stories -- and when one does, it's almost never portrayed in a good light by the narrative.
I wonder, The Pilgrim, do you think the warring nations on the Western Continent (the ones not controlled by the Vector Legion, of course) are legitimate? I'd argue they exist for many of the same reasons but I also don't have a well-formed answer to my own question.
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2021-02-01, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Gobbotopia's economy is also dependent on enslaved humans.
Last edited by Jason; 2021-02-01 at 01:43 PM.
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2021-02-01, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Right, I may have been a bit jumpy but Brian333's claim to be in the minority for not "giving Redcloak a pass" when the position on most people here reguarding Redcloak and the pre-O-Chul Sapphire Guard would be aptly summarised as "a plague on both your houses" rubs me the wrong way.
It astonishes me that not more people agree. There have been exactly three things wrong with Gobbotopia:
1) Team Evil
2) The Azurites were left homelandless
3) slavery.
1 and 2 have been fixed and I see no reason 3 couldn't. Meanwhile, to our knowledge, Gobbotopia is the first goblinoid settlement to have standind amongst the other nations. If the wars between the goblins and PC races are to stop, a continued Gobbotopia is a step on the right direction. Hell, even Durkon thinks so.
So what are your arguments for it not deserving to exist?Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-02-01, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-01, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Since Durkon included the condition "Gobbotopia releases their slaves" in the peace talks and proposed treaty, I had assumed any discussion here of Gobbotopia's legitimacy or continued existence wouldn't factor in its current policy on slavery. That was probably too big of an assumption.
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2021-02-01, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
20.000 hobgoblins enslaving 400.000 humans*
*(Take or give. Pre-war azurite population was 530k, with about half living in Azure City itself. Humans suffered 10.000 casualties at the battle. The Refugee Fleet clearly wasn't big enough to carry more than a few thousand).
Point #2 hasn't been fixed. Most of the azurite population remains in Gobbotopia, enslaved by the Hobgoblins.
Point #1 isn't an issue. Team Evil is gone, Gobbotopia remains a brutal slaver regime.
Durkon doesn't thinks so. Read panel #2 here
"Clearly, I dinnae think ye should keep Azure City".
So that's another fact you got wrong.
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2021-02-01, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Last edited by Dion; 2021-02-01 at 03:13 PM.
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2021-02-01, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-01, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
So wait... there are seriously people who believe that Gobbotopia doesn’t have the right to exist?
This is an actual position taken by real people on this thread? This isn’t just performance argument, for the sake of argument?
Clearly I am in the wrong thread. This one doesn’t make a lick of sense to me. I’m going to go back to arguing about Star Wars, or something that doesn’t bang so hard against RLLast edited by Dion; 2021-02-01 at 03:18 PM.
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2021-02-01, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
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2021-02-01, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
Except he then immediately follows it up by saying "but thar's jack squat we can do aboot it." Later in that same page, Durkon is the one who proposes the peace treaty wherein Gobbotopia remains (but releases its slaves). He suggests that the existence of Gobbotopia might even lead to better treatment of goblins worldwide:
Mebbe...if'n everyone's tradin' an' dealin' wit ye all that time, someday down tha line they'll stop seein' ye as monsters.
Mebbe na. I dunno. People're stubborn.Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-02-01 at 03:21 PM.
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2021-02-01, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-01, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
In stickverse, every race started out with the land given to them by the gods.
Either people have the right to live where they want, even in land that was was once owned by other people, or they only have the right to live in land given to them by the gods.
If the former, then goblins have the right to live there, even if other goblins did steal it (I’m not saying goblins have the right to steal. I’m saying that people have the right to live where they want, regardless of if it was stolen ).
If the later, then goblins are oppressed by the gods to live only undesirable lands.Last edited by Dion; 2021-02-01 at 03:30 PM.
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2021-02-01, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-01, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-01, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
I would have thought Gobbotopia not having a right to exist was ridiculous before but if those numbers are right that kind of changes things.
Like, what if Gobbotopia did accept Durkon's terms and end human slavery. Those 400,000 azurites get booted out of their homes and become refugees? They're forced to stay and be ruled by the brutal regime that just stopped killing and enslaving them? Those options seem a lot less fair than the 20,000 goblins just returning to homes they left a few months ago.
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2021-02-01, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak and the misattribution of blame
My numbers are a gross estimation. But the truth is, there is a huge number of human slaves in Gobbotopia, and they likely exceed the goblinoid population, given the pre-war numbers.
I don't know were Mr Burlew is going with that part of his story. But I know he still presents the azurites as the good guys and the goblinoids as mainly evil. I don't know how The Giant plans to end his story, but the Durkon-Redcloak negotiation was Redcloak's big chance to solidify Gobbotopia, and Redcloak rejected it.
Gobbotopia wasn't the Hobgoblin's dream. It was Redcloak's. If the hobbos are forced to give up on human slavery, and thus are left with no workforce, they might be happy to grab all the loot and return to their hilly mountains, instead of standing and fight for far more land that they can farm or defend. Who knows?