Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

[Fyraltari]

20.000 hobgoblins enslaving 400.000 humans*

*(Take or give. Pre-war azurite population was 530k, with about half living in Azure City itself. Humans suffered 10.000 casualties at the battle. The Refugee Fleet clearly wasn't big enough to carry more than a few thousand).

First, source.
Second, your "clearly" is doing a lot of work here.
Third, half of 530, 000 is 265, 000 not not 400, 000.

Point #2 hasn't been fixed. Most of the azurite population remains in Gobbotopia, enslaved by the Hobgoblins.

No. Some of the population, precisely the ones who were inside the city during the attack are still there. How many is that? I don't know, but the thought of hobgoblins keeping humans enslaved with a ratio of 1 hobgoblin to 20 humans is patently ridiculous.

Point #1 isn't an issue. Team Evil is gone, Gobbotopia remains a brutal slaver regime.

Jirix isn't Redcloak or Xykon and he has stated that he intends to rule differently than Redcloak no that they have transitionned from occupying a foreign land to sovereign nation.

Durkon doesn't thinks so. Read panel #2 here

"Clearly, I dinnae think ye should keep Azure City".

Read panel #9, he proposes to let the goblins keep the land in exchange for the release of the slaves still there.

So that's another fact you got wrong.

You have a skewed view of what a fact is.


Oh, and on general principle, asking why something or someone deserves to exist is the wrong question. The right question is to ask wether it deserves to be destroyed or killed. Things that exist should continue existing unless there is more good to be had from the destruction than their continued existence. And it seems clear to me that driving the goblins aways from Gobbotopia, and so taking everyone to square one so that they can do the same dance again one generation later provides less benefits than a slaveless, recognized Gobbotopia would.

[hungrycrow]

My numbers are a gross estimation. But the truth is, there is a huge number of human slaves in Gobbotopia, and they likely exceed the goblinoid population, given the pre-war numbers.

I don't know were Mr Burlew is going with that part of his story. But I know he still presents the azurites as the good guys and the goblinoids as mainly evil. I don't know how The Giant plans to end his story, but the Durkon-Redcloak negotiation was Redcloak's big chance to solidify Gobbotopia, and Redcloak rejected it.

Gobbotopia wasn't the Hobgoblin's dream. It was Redcloak's. If the hobbos are forced to give up on human slavery, and thus are left with no workforce, they might be happy to grab all the loot and return to their hilly mountains, instead of standing and fight for far more land that they can farm or defend. Who knows?

I imagine they'd still keep Gobbotopia. It's pretty defensible, and eventually more goblins will move in to replace the workforce. And while I can't predict exactly how the Giant will play out the Azurite-Goblin conflict, he gave the Azurites such a convenient out in the elven lands that I can't see them retaking Azure City in the end.

[Ionathus]

My numbers are a gross estimation. But the truth is, there is a huge number of human slaves in Gobbotopia, and they likely exceed the goblinoid population, given the pre-war numbers.

I don't know were Mr Burlew is going with that part of his story. But I know he still presents the azurites as the good guys and the goblinoids as mainly evil. I don't know how The Giant plans to end his story, but the Durkon-Redcloak negotiation was Redcloak's big chance to solidify Gobbotopia, and Redcloak rejected it.

Gobbotopia wasn't the Hobgoblin's dream. It was Redcloak's. If the hobbos are forced to give up on human slavery, and thus are left with no workforce, they might be happy to grab all the loot and return to their hilly mountains, instead of standing and fight for far more land that they can farm or defend. Who knows?

Your entire argument seems to rest on the (dubious) assumption that Gobbotopia can't exist without human slaves. You haven't given any strong evidence that human slaves outnumber goblinoids, and you've responded to every disagreement about Gobbotopia's right to exist with some variation of "Gobbotopia uses slaves, therefore, it doesn't deserve to exist."

But a slaveless Gobbotopia has already been established as feasible. Both Durkon and Redcloak treat it as possible during negotiations. Durkon says Gobbotopia could "barely" farm all their owned land without slaves -- but he doesn't say that it would be impossible. "Barely" means that the goblinoids would have to do the hard work themselves: they would have to create and improve their circumstances, rather than just pillage and oppress. Maybe they'd return to the hills, but that's a huge logical leap. They might just as easily stay.

That's the Gobbotopia that people are talking about. Nobody is saying they'd keep the slaves: that's ridiculous. Stop conflating the current Gobbotopia with a Treaty Gobbotopia -- one with reshaped boundary lines, no slavery, and ceased hostilities with the Azurites.

[Jason]

Gobbotopia is also under a widening dimensional rift containing a god-slaying abomination that consumes the souls of those it kills. I'm not really seeing a happy ending in the cards for Gobbotopia.

[Dion]

Oh, and on general principle, asking why something or someone deserves to exist is the wrong question. The right question is to ask wether it deserves to be destroyed or killed.

Thank you. This is the most sane thing I’ve read here.

It sometimes seems that history is just a catalogue of “population group A took land and resources from group B who took them from group C who took them from... who took them from group Z”.

And I really don’t want to get into the ethics of population groups taking land and resources from other population groups, because all that conversation ever seems to do is reveal how situational everyone’s view of ethics and morality are. I’ll just say my own view is “don’t take other people’s stuff”, but I recognize that’s coming from a place where I have the excellent privilege of having lots of stuff, so of course I think that.

But asking “should something continue to exist” is different question from “did we arrive at this current state through a method I approve of”. And we sure do seem to be conflating them.

[Jason]

That's the Gobbotopia that people are talking about. Nobody is saying they'd keep the slaves: that's ridiculous. Stop conflating the current Gobbotopia with a Treaty Gobbotopia -- one with reshaped boundary lines, no slavery, and ceased hostilities with the Azurites.

Maybe "Gobbotopia" is the right name, since it's derived from "Utopia" which means "nowhere".

"Stop talking about the Gobbotopia that actually exists and start talking about the future Gobbotopia that will exist, if it's leaders do everything right and it's neighbors play along."

[Fyraltari]

Thank you. This is the most sane thing I’ve read here.

Thanks.

Maybe "Gobbotopia" is the right name, since it's derived from "Utopia" which means "nowhere".

Gobbo-: goblin
-topia: place.

Gobbotopia: Land of the goblins. It is a fitting name. As was the not-as-liked Hobgobbostan.

[The Pilgrim]

First, source.

Pre-war population of the Azurite Nation was 530.000, about half of it lived inside the city. As stated in the bonus material of War and XP.

Hobgoblin army was 30.000, suffered 10.000 casualties in Azure City.

Third, half of 530, 000 is 265, 000 not not 400, 000.

And so? The rest of the Azurite Nation was conquered by the Hobgoblins, too.

No. Some of the population, precisely the ones who were inside the city during the attack are still there. How many is that? I don't know, but the thought of hobgoblins keeping humans enslaved with a ratio of 1 hobgoblin to 20 humans is patently ridiculous.

Make it 10 to 1, or 5 to 1 if you like. That still makes Gobbotopia a nation whose majority of population are human slaves.

Jirix isn't Redcloak or Xykon and he has stated that he intends to rule differently than Redcloak no that they have transitionned from occupying a foreign land to sovereign nation.

Jirix is still the guy who had fun with Xykon watching O-Chul being tortured and making bets on his prospect of surviving the next torture.

Read panel #9, he proposes to let the goblins keep the land in exchange for the release of the slaves still there.

And he had previously said that he doesn't think that was right. He wouldn't propose that to Redcloak if not for the fact that he needed to strike a bargain with him in order to get his cooperation for sealing the Rifts. He isn't proposing it because he thinks the hobgoblins deserve it.

You have a skewed view of what a fact is.

The character literally saying you are wrong on what you think that character believes, is a fact in my book.

Oh, and on general principle, asking why something or someone deserves to exist is the wrong question. The right question is to ask wether it deserves to be destroyed or killed. Things that exist should continue existing unless there is more good to be had from the destruction than their continued existence. And it seems clear to me that driving the goblins aways from Gobbotopia, and so taking everyone to square one so that they can do the same dance again one generation later provides less benefits than a slaveless, recognized Gobbotopia would.

That's because for you, the lives and welfare of 20.000 hobgoblin slavers are worth more than the lives and wekfare of 500.000 azurites, several hundred thousands of whom are currently under hobgoblin slavery.

Mine, isn't the case. I don't value the welfare of hobgoblin slavers avobe the welfare of their slaves.

Anyway, the Hobgoblins only came down their Hills because of Redcloak. They have thrived in their hills and lived in peace with the Azurites for decades. And managed to keep the peace even when the actions of the Sapphire Guard threatened it. With no demagogue full of hatred, the Hobgoblins would have remained in their lands.

So I fail to see why the continued existence of "crusader-bait" Gobbotopia is a necessity. Even if the slaves were released, you can bet all those hundreds of thousands of humans will want their property back. Gobbotopia got recognized by several nations only out of fear of the Lich. But soon, the Lich will be no more...

[Lord Raziere]

Or alternatively, Hinjo hears the reason behind why Gobbotopia exists and drops any claim to Azure city. He is the one in charge after all, the king, so he is the only one who matters when it comes to this sort of decision of the Azurites trying to retake it. (whether the nobles agree with this is a different matter and an internal dispute)

Trying to retake Azure city would be even more warfare, when many of their soldiers are not well trained, when they are already settling on islands and beginning to set up a new society. war is incredibly wasteful to peoples time, resources and lives. Furthermore many nations have recognized Gobbotopias sovereignty, which means the Azurites will not be getting assistance to retake the city. Hinjo has seen war, and we know from O-chul's story that war is an incredibly unwise idea when there are better solutions. Why continue retaliation?

At the same time, no matter the moral justification or lack thereof, its getting unreasonable to expect the goblins to just leave. the time to spin it as getting rid of an occupying force, is past. they have some form of political legitimacy in their sovereignty now and now they are starting to settle down as well. I highly doubt that they want to go back, not after such success. Hinjo could insist on retaking the city but even if he won, would it be worth it given all the lives he'd probably lose doing so? Furthermore the reason why Azure City was founded was to protect the Gate. When all this is over, the rift will be gone or fixed in some manner, so all it will be is a plot of land no different from any other. Why fight over it? Getting to it will require sailing across the ocean for who knows how long from the islands with the Azurites being the attacking force, the hobgoblins just have to set up good defenses while their enemies have to deal with a logistically difficult way of even getting to them

Hinjo is a paladin and not just any paladin but one who does things for the best as taught by O-chul, not just because something is right. would spending so many lives to retake a piece of land be worth it? I don't think it would. Asking them to leave is out of the question. to put it from probably Jirix's perspective:
"Uh no? Look human dude, I know you want it back, but this is best we ever got. and we got it by beating you. You don't have the forces or the power to get us out. Why should we listen to this when we don't need to? Your nothing but a leader of a bunch of refugees get out of here, you lost, take it with grace and we can all be peaceful. We're not going to hunt you down after all, your like what somewhere in the ocean? We don't time to find you we got a city to live in. get out of here dude."
No, Hinjo I bet will go after something different: the release of slaves and allowing them to be citizens in Gobbotopia with all the rights deserving of sapient beings, and open trade between the Azurite Islands and Gobbotopia-Coexistence. It may not be perfect, it may come up about from a great injustice, but where is it written that Hinjo must retaliate in kind? That the Azurites MUST have their land back for there to be a happy ending? Are paladins not supposed to hold themselves to higher standards? To insist on retaking Azure City's lands is to insist on potentially going to war over it, and if the Azurites go to war.....It may not end well, even with the OOTS's help. But if Hinjo negotiates the end of human slavery in Gobbotopia and establishes trade between them in returning for renouncing all claims to Azure City, that benefits everybody, not just the Azurite nobles who want their manors back.

The only reason we the readers care about Azure City being taken over, is because we spent so much time there. Its just a location. If that location will just be the cause of more conflict between humans and goblins, why care about it? Why ask the Azurites to potentially fight a war just so they can relocate again? The gate is no longer a factor, the entire reason why Azure City and the Sapphire Guard existed is done. The land is only valuable for what it can give and what it can give can be replaced.

I don't see Hinjo making the decision to continue trying to get back Azure City, especially not after How the Paladin Got his Scar.

[The Pilgrim]

Your entire argument seems to rest on the (dubious) assumption that Gobbotopia can't exist without human slaves. You haven't given any strong evidence that human slaves outnumber goblinoids, and you've responded to every disagreement about Gobbotopia's right to exist with some variation of "Gobbotopia uses slaves, therefore, it doesn't deserve to exist."

My entire arguments rests of the fact that the Hobgoblins are brutal slaver invaders.

That's the Gobbotopia that people are talking about. Nobody is saying they'd keep the slaves: that's ridiculous. Stop conflating the current Gobbotopia with a Treaty Gobbotopia -- one with reshaped boundary lines, no slavery, and ceased hostilities with the Azurites.

May I ask why do you think the Hobgoblins deserve to be rewarded for invading foreign lands, pillaging, killing and enslaving their population, and occuping their country?

I mean, letting them just peacefully retreat with the loot looks already like a big concession in my book.

[hungrycrow]

Pre-war population of the Azurite Nation was 530.000, about half of it lived inside the city. As stated in the bonus material of War and XP.

Hobgoblin army was 30.000, suffered 10.000 casualties in Azure City.



And so? The rest of the Azurite Nation was conquered by the Hobgoblins, too.



Make it 10 to 1, or 5 to 1 if you like. That still makes Gobbotopia a nation whose majority of population are human slaves.



Jirix is still the guy who had fun with Xykon watching O-Chul being tortured and making bets on his prospect of surviving the next torture.



And he had previously said that he doesn't think that was right. He wouldn't propose that to Redcloak if not for the fact that he needed to strike a bargain with him in order to get his cooperation for sealing the Rifts. He isn't proposing it because he thinks the hobgoblins deserve it.



The character literally saying you are wrong on what you think that character believes, is a fact in my book.



That's because for you, the lives and welfare of 20.000 hobgoblin slavers are worth more than the lives and wekfare of 500.000 azurites, several hundred thousands of whom are currently under hobgoblin slavery.

Mine, isn't the case. I don't value the welfare of hobgoblin slavers avobe the welfare of their slaves.

Anyway, the Hobgoblins only came down their Hills because of Redcloak. They have thrived in their hills and lived in peace with the Azurites for decades. And managed to keep the peace even when the actions of the Sapphire Guard threatened it. With no demagogue full of hatred, the Hobgoblins would have remained in their lands.

So I fail to see why the continued existence of "crusader-bait" Gobbotopia is a necessity. Even if the slaves were released, you can bet all those hundreds of thousands of humans will want their property back. Gobbotopia got recognized by several nations only out of fear of the Lich. But soon, the Lich will be no more...

I'm not sure these numbers all add up. A lot of Azurites outside the city probably fled. And there are a lot more goblins than just the hobgoblin soldiers who invaded initially. Still, there's clearly a significant human slave population that needs to be considered. I don't think merely ending the practice of slavery resolves the situation as neatly as people seem to think.

Also, it's uncharitable to make assumptions about what lives another poster does or does not value, to put it mildly.

[Jasdoif]

Still, there's clearly a significant human slave population that needs to be considered. I don't think merely ending the practice of slavery resolves the situation as neatly as people seem to think.

It seems like a good starting point, though.

[The Pilgrim]

I'm not sure these numbers all add up. A lot of Azurites outside the city probably fled. And there are a lot more goblins than just the hobgoblin soldiers who invaded initially.

Well, according to the glimpses we get of the demographic comosition of Gobbotopia, it's still 99% Hobgoblins.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html

EDIT:
93% Hobgoblins according to Redcloak's books:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html

Let's say, then, 20.000 hobgoblins and about 1.400 miscellaneous goblinoids.

Number of azurite slaves unknown. Of 530.000 pre-war pop, 10.000 fell in battle, many thousands fleed the City with the Fleet, and an undisclosed amout of countryside population has fleed as refugees (we know some neighbours have sheltered refugees).

Though maybe not 20 to 1, my bet is that the total of human slaves still outnumber the amount of goblinoids in Gobbotopia.

Also, it's uncharitable to make assumptions about what lives another poster does or does not value, to put it mildly.

The fact is that 530.000 people got stripped of their homes, freedom and, in some cases, even their lives. And that fails to register as a factor into the analysis of so many people in this board.

[Lord Raziere]

It seems like a good starting point, though.

Indeed, negotiate for humans to have all the rights and protections of a goblin in Gobbotopia, establish trade if possible, guarantee the sovereignty of the new Azure city island nation so that they don't attack them, things like that are all things that should be considered.

[Dion]

The fact is that 530.000 people got stripped of their homes, freedom and, in some cases, even their lives. And that fails to register as a factor into the analysis of so many people in this board.

I guess I don’t understand . Everyone single person on this board agrees that they should end slavery. Every single person. You get 100% agreement in this point.

So who are you arguing against?

[The Pilgrim]

I guess I don’t understand . Everyone single person on this board agrees that they should end slavery. Every single person. You get 100% agreement in this point.

So who are you arguing against?

That you still fail to consider than even if you end slavery, you are still stripping 530.000 people of their homes.

Not to mention all the brutality those 530.000 people have already endured, even if everything returned to Status Quo Ante Bellum tomorrow.

[Fyraltari]

Pre-war population of the Azurite Nation was 530.000, about half of it lived inside the city. As stated in the bonus material of War and XP.

Hobgoblin army was 30.000, suffered 10.000 casualties in Azure City.

Thank you.

And so? The rest of the Azurite Nation was conquered by the Hobgoblins, too.

All of it? All the population and the armies they had there just threw their hands in the air and said "well the goblins took over the city, I guess we're slaves now." ? It doesn't work like that. Gobbotopia's territory extends from the city itself, through Blueriver valley to the Hobgoblins' old base. Looking at the map included in GDGU, that's a straight path from A to B, meaning that didn't conquer the Cerulean River or Robinsegg so that's plenty of Azurite territory and Azurite people not enslaved in Gobbotopia.

Make it 10 to 1, or 5 to 1 if you like. That still makes Gobbotopia a nation whose majority of population are human slaves.

I will not, because I do not pull numbers out of my bottom.

Jirix is still the guy who had fun with Xykon watching O-Chul being tortured and making bets on his prospect of surviving the next torture.

So? You judge a politican on their policies, not their character. Also Jirix was there because Xykon invited him. Do you really think he could have turned Xykon down?

And he had previously said that he doesn't think that was right. He wouldn't propose that to Redcloak if not for the fact that he needed to strike a bargain with him in order to get his cooperation for sealing the Rifts. He isn't proposing it because he thinks the hobgoblins deserve it.

And? Who cares who deserves what? I thought this was about rights and the proper conclusion of the story? Sure in an ideal world everyone would get what they deserves and free unicorn rides and sugar wouldn't make us fat, but in the real world past wrongs don't matter as much as future rights.

The character literally saying you are wrong on what you think that character believes, is a fact in my book.

No, because
I never said Durkon believed the goblins deserved the land, I said he believed them keeping it inexchange for the slaves' freedom was a step in the right direction. As evidenced by the fact that it was exactly what he proposed.

That's because for you, the lives and welfare of 20.000 hobgoblin slavers are worth more than the lives and wekfare of 500.000 azurites, several hundred thousands of whom are currently under hobgoblin slavery.Mine, isn't the case. I don't value the welfare of hobgoblin slavers avobe the welfare of their slaves.

Please kindly refrain to invent motives and values behind the words of the people you argue against. I value the lives and freedom of everybody and wishes for the path that involves the least blooshed and most people getting to enjoy their freedom. Also these numbers are still bunk.

Anyway, the Hobgoblins only came down their Hills because of Redcloak. They have thrived in their hills and lived in peace with the Azurites for decades. And managed to keep the peace even when the actions of the Sapphire Guard threatened it. With no demagogue full of hatred, the Hobgoblins would have remained in their lands.

The Azurites atacking the Hobgoblins and then the Azurites stopping because of an Azurite convincing the head of government that reforms were needed is not the hobgoblins keeping the peace, it's the hobgoblins living at the mercy of their neighbours.

So I fail to see why the continued existence of "crusader-bait" Gobbotopia is a necessity. Even if the slaves were released, you can bet all those hundreds of thousands of humans will want their property back. Gobbotopia got recognized by several nations only out of fear of the Lich. But soon, the Lich will be no more...

These nations didn't recognize Gobbotopia out of fear of Xykon, you are confusing them with those who refused to attack gobbotopia. Cliffport recognized Gobbotopia because it aligned with their foreign policy.

As for why Gobbotopia is a necessity, it's because the goblins and humans have been at this for time immemorial and Gobbotopia is apparently the first time goblins have managed to get humans to treat with them diplomatically rather than alternating between isolation and war. It looks like the best shot there is to stop the slaughters.

Or alternatively, Hinjo hears the reason behind why Gobbotopia exists and drops any claim to Azure city. He is the one in charge after all, the king, so he is the only one who matters when it comes to this sort of decision of the Azurites trying to retake it. (whether the nobles agree with this is a different matter and an internal dispute)

Trying to retake Azure city would be even more warfare, when many of their soldiers are not well trained, when they are already settling on islands and beginning to set up a new society. war is incredibly wasteful to peoples time, resources and lives. Furthermore many nations have recognized Gobbotopias sovereignty, which means the Azurites will not be getting assistance to retake the city. Hinjo has seen war, and we know from O-chul's story that war is an incredibly unwise idea when there are better solutions. Why continue retaliation?

At the same time, no matter the moral justification or lack thereof, its getting unreasonable to expect the goblins to just leave. the time to spin it as getting rid of an occupying force, is past. they have some form of political legitimacy in their sovereignty now and now they are starting to settle down as well. I highly doubt that they want to go back, not after such success. Hinjo could insist on retaking the city but even if he won, would it be worth it given all the lives he'd probably lose doing so? Furthermore the reason why Azure City was founded was to protect the Gate. When all this is over, the rift will be gone or fixed in some manner, so all it will be is a plot of land no different from any other. Why fight over it? Getting to it will require sailing across the ocean for who knows how long from the islands with the Azurites being the attacking force, the hobgoblins just have to set up good defenses while their enemies have to deal with a logistically difficult way of even getting to them

Hinjo is a paladin and not just any paladin but one who does things for the best as taught by O-chul, not just because something is right. would spending so many lives to retake a piece of land be worth it? I don't think it would. Asking them to leave is out of the question. to put it from probably Jirix's perspective:
"Uh no? Look human dude, I know you want it back, but this is best we ever got. and we got it by beating you. You don't have the forces or the power to get us out. Why should we listen to this when we don't need to? Your nothing but a leader of a bunch of refugees get out of here, you lost, take it with grace and we can all be peaceful. We're not going to hunt you down after all, your like what somewhere in the ocean? We don't time to find you we got a city to live in. get out of here dude."
No, Hinjo I bet will go after something different: the release of slaves and allowing them to be citizens in Gobbotopia with all the rights deserving of sapient beings, and open trade between the Azurite Islands and Gobbotopia-Coexistence. It may not be perfect, it may come up about from a great injustice, but where is it written that Hinjo must retaliate in kind? That the Azurites MUST have their land back for there to be a happy ending? Are paladins not supposed to hold themselves to higher standards? To insist on retaking Azure City's lands is to insist on potentially going to war over it, and if the Azurites go to war.....It may not end well, even with the OOTS's help. But if Hinjo negotiates the end of human slavery in Gobbotopia and establishes trade between them in returning for renouncing all claims to Azure City, that benefits everybody, not just the Azurite nobles who want their manors back.

The only reason we the readers care about Azure City being taken over, is because we spent so much time there. Its just a location. If that location will just be the cause of more conflict between humans and goblins, why care about it? Why ask the Azurites to potentially fight a war just so they can relocate again? The gate is no longer a factor, the entire reason why Azure City and the Sapphire Guard existed is done. The land is only valuable for what it can give and what it can give can be replaced.

I don't see Hinjo making the decision to continue trying to get back Azure City, especially not after How the Paladin Got his Scar.

100% this.

Well, nitpick: Soon didn't found Azure City it existed long before the adventures of the Scribblers.
So, 97% this.

[Lord Raziere]

Edit:

100% this.

Well, nitpick: Soon didn't found Azure City it existed long before the adventures of the Scribblers.
So, 97% this.

Apologies, little details like that are sometimes lost. your correct.

That you still fail to consider than even if you end slavery, you are still stripping 530.000 people of their homes.

Not to mention all the brutality those 530.000 people have already endured, even if everything returned to Status Quo Ante Bellum tomorrow.

Yes those are horrible.

But again, if you negotiate for humans to have rights and protections of goblins they don't even have to leave.

while the brutality.....okay? such a problem is not really a thing for a nation to solve. at best the goblins can pay out money in recompense, but dealing with trauma and brutality is something for therapy to take care of. such wounds take time to heal no matter what and they will figure out how as they go along.

[Ionathus]

"Stop talking about the Gobbotopia that actually exists and start talking about the future Gobbotopia that will exist, if it's leaders do everything right and it's neighbors play along."

That's...that's what peace treaty negotiations are. They're a collection of world leaders debating what each future country will look like. The question is not, and has never been, "is Gobbotopia in its current form acceptable to everyone?". The question is "would the Gobbotopia proposed by Durkon be feasible?" That's the Gobbotopia I believe most people are talking about. Maybe it's an error of terminology.

The Pilgrim keeps treating everyone's discussions of Gobbotopia like it would still include slavery, when literally nobody is saying that. I'm just trying to cut through the rhetoric and establish that we're talking about two different situations: the current (bad) one, and a future (less bad) one.

Pre-war population of the Azurite Nation was 530.000, about half of it lived inside the city. As stated in the bonus material of War and XP.

Hobgoblin army was 30.000, suffered 10.000 casualties in Azure City.

Make it 10 to 1, or 5 to 1 if you like. That still makes Gobbotopia a nation whose majority of population are human slaves.

{Scrubbed} You started with two cited numbers (Azure City population and Hobgoblin army size) and then just made unfounded assumptions about who ended up where. You have absolutely no basis for claiming that "most" of that 215,000 is still enslaved in Azure city. Maybe the fleet was huge (remember, some of the Southern Continent allies agreed to take in refugees). Maybe refugees ran for the hills before the fight. You simply don't know. You're not basing it on anything tangible. Knocking it down to 10 to 1, or 5 to 1, doesn't make the assumption any more credible. You started with real numbers, but you then started assuming there are more humans than hobgoblins without any actual proof.

That's because for you, the lives and welfare of 20.000 hobgoblin slavers are worth more than the lives and wekfare of 500.000 azurites, several hundred thousands of whom are currently under hobgoblin slavery.

Mine, isn't the case. I don't value the welfare of hobgoblin slavers avobe the welfare of their slaves.

Believing Gobbotopia is capable of continued existence without slavery does not equate to caring more about the slavers than the enslaved. {Scrubbed}

May I ask why do you think the Hobgoblins deserve to be rewarded for invading foreign lands, pillaging, killing and enslaving their population, and occuping their country?

I mean, letting them just peacefully retreat with the loot looks already like a big concession in my book.

That's what war is. People killing each other for control of stuff. It's not about being "rewarded" -- it's about whether you believe Gobbotopia is somehow different in its legitimacy than the Realm of the Dragon, or numerous Western Continent nations, or any of thousands of nations throughout fiction that are established by seizing territory in war.

[Fyraltari]

That you still fail to consider than even if you end slavery, you are still stripping 530.000 people of their homes.

Not to mention all the brutality those 530.000 people have already endured, even if everything returned to Status Quo Ante Bellum tomorrow.

These things happened, no amount of violence towards the goblins can make them unhappen. Making peace with the goblins, however, is the only way to make sure they don't happen again. And your numbers are still bunk.

[Ionathus]

That you still fail to consider than even if you end slavery, you are still stripping 530.000 people of their homes.

Not to mention all the brutality those 530.000 people have already endured, even if everything returned to Status Quo Ante Bellum tomorrow.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but those 530,000 people already lost their homes, almost a year ago.

[hroþila]

It makes zero sense that ~400,000 Azurites would be slaves in Gobbotopia. It rests on the assumption that the fleet couldn't have carried that many people, but in that case neither could the Azurite cells hold that many slaves, nor the hobgoblins feed that many people.

It's much more likely IMO that The Giant intended much of the civilian population to have escaped on the fleet, and that he simply didn't care about the logistics of such a feat. Which is why at no point has the text hinted at most of the Azurite population being enslaved.

[The Pilgrim]

All of it? All the population and the armies they had there just threw their hands in the air and said "well the goblins took over the city, I guess we're slaves now." ? It doesn't work like that. Gobbotopia's territory extends from the city itself, through Blueriver valley to the Hobgoblins' old base. Looking at the map included in GDGU, that's a straight path from A to B, meaning that didn't conquer the Cerulean River or Robinsegg so that's plenty of Azurite territory and Azurite people not enslaved in Gobbotopia.

If Robinsegg hadn't fallen under Hobgoblin control, Hinjo would have landed there and continued the fight.

Though I suppose a lot of the countryside population fleed as refugees. Hinjo mentioned their neighbours taking refugees.

So? You judge a politican on their policies, not their character. Also Jirix was there because Xykon invited him. Do you really think he could have turned Xykon down?

I dunno. He seems to be enjoying the show.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html

And? Who cares who deserves what?

Apparently, a lot of people

I never said Durkon believed the goblins deserved the land, I said he believed them keeping it inexchange for the slaves' freedom was a step in the right direction. As evidenced by the fact that it was exactly what he proposed.

Durkon believed it was a step in the right direction... for striking a bargaing with Redcloak to enlist his help into sealing the Rifts.

Redcloak refused. So right now, Gobbotopia holds no bargaining value for Durkon's side.

The Azurites atacking the Hobgoblins and then the Azurites stopping because of an Azurite convincing the head of government that reforms were needed is not the hobgoblins keeping the peace, it's the hobgoblins living at the mercy of their neighbours.

The Azurites did never attack the Hobgoblins. The Hobgoblins were attacked by a secret organization whose very existence is secret to almost all azurite population. And it was the azurites who stopped that secret organization from further attacking the Hobgoblins.

As for why Gobbotopia is a necessity, it's because the goblins and humans have been at this for time immemorial and Gobbotopia is apparently the first time goblins have managed to get humans to treat with them diplomatically rather than alternating between isolation and war. It looks like the best shot there is to stop the slaughters.

HtPGhS proves you wrong. Humans have treated the goblinoids diplomatically before. Humans have stopped the slaughter before.

SoD proves further proof that goblins can live peacefully alongside humans and even attend the Circus together.

These things happened, no amount of violence towards the goblins can make them unhappen. Making peace with the goblins, however, is the only way to make sure they don't happen again. And your numbers are still bunk.

Violence against the specific hobgoblins who commited those acts, will end slavery and restitute the property back to their rightfull owners. It will also prevent those brutal slavers from hurting anyone else again, on the account of being dead.

Peace with the Goblinoids without restitution will only encourage goblins to repeat the deed against other populations, since they have learnt that they can get away with invading, looting, killing, enslaving and stealing.

[Jason]

As for why Gobbotopia is a necessity, it's because the goblins and humans have been at this for time immemorial and Gobbotopia is apparently the first time goblins have managed to get humans to treat with them diplomatically rather than alternating between isolation and war. It looks like the best shot there is to stop the slaughters.

There are a lot of assumptions built into that statement.

Have goblinoids and humans really been fighting since the creation of Stickworld?

Is this really the first time humans and goblinoids have tried to negotiate rather than fight it out?

Apparently there really have been slaughters, since we've seen two (Redlcoak's village by Azurite Paladins in SoD and the aftermath of an Azurite outpost wiped out by hobgoblins in HtPGHS), but how extensive and widespread have they really been in the past?
The two biggest ones we hear about seem to be the Dark One crusade that caused him to ascend to deityhood and the sacking of Azure City - both perpetrated by goblinoids against non-goblins.

[quinron]

This thread has devolved into a lot of real-world/Stickworld conflation. I'm not interested in that; I don't think my views on real-world morality are important to in-universe analysis of this comic. But I'm curious if there's been an in-comic/Word-of-Giant response to this:

A major part of many Stickworld characters' opposition to Gobbotopia is that it's a slave state. One would surmise that, especially among characters like Durkon whose morality derives from their deities, this means that their gods disapprove of the practice of slavery.

But the Western Continent seems to be composed, if not entirely, then primarily of slave states, and neither the followers of the Western gods - as a whole, at least - nor the followers of the elven gods - which, as I just learned earlier in this thread, are considered a "subset" of the Western pantheon - seem to be organizing an opposition to these slave states.

We've seen one on-panel elven anti-slavery unit, and they were brought into Azure City. There didn't seem to be any organized resistance in the EoB until Haley showed up. I'm totally willing to chalk this up to conservation of detail, but I would actually find it pretty interesting and compelling if the Western Pantheon turned out to be more-or-less cool with slavery. It would add a lot of wrinkles to the inter-pantheon relationships.

[hroþila]

The Azurites did never attack the Hobgoblins.

Canonically, the Azurites (not the Sapphire Guard) kept the hobgoblins holed up in the mountains through military force. It's very bold to assume they were never ever the aggressors in their long and protracted border wars.

[M1982]

It doesn't, but it's kind of a leap to go from "paladins massacred civilians during a divinely sanctioned raid" to "all the gods specifically created our race as fodder".

Of course I think Redcloak is getting this idea from the Dark One's religion, and the raid just gives Redcloak every reason to trust TDO over other sources of information.

I believe it's not just the DO religion but specifically word of the DO himself told him that the moment he first put ont he red cloak.

[The Pilgrim]

The Pilgrim keeps treating everyone's discussions of Gobbotopia like it would still include slavery, when literally nobody is saying that. I'm just trying to cut through the rhetoric and establish that we're talking about two different situations: the current (bad) one, and a future (less bad) one.

I'm treating your side of the debate as people who don't seem to mind that 530.000 people got their homes, freedom and in some cases lives stolen from them by a gang of brutal and mostly evil slaver invaders.

The normal expectation would be to have the victims get restitution, rather than to have the agressors get rewarded.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

You started with two cited numbers (Azure City population and Hobgoblin army size) and then just made unfounded assumptions about who ended up where. You have absolutely no basis for claiming that "most" of that 215,000 is still enslaved in Azure city. Maybe the fleet was huge (remember, some of the Southern Continent allies agreed to take in refugees). Maybe refugees ran for the hills before the fight. You simply don't know. You're not basing it on anything tangible. Knocking it down to 10 to 1, or 5 to 1, doesn't make the assumption any more credible. You started with real numbers, but you then started assuming there are more humans than hobgoblins without any actual proof..

You said that you are not defending that Gobbotopia should keep existing with slavery. Therefore, it's moot that you discuss the specific numbers.

If you say that you don't endorse slavery, then it doesn't matters if the ratio of goblinoids-to-slaves is 1-1, 1-5, or 1-20, as you agree nonetheless that it has to stop.

That's what war is. People killing each other for control of stuff. It's not about being "rewarded" -- it's about whether you believe Gobbotopia is somehow different in its legitimacy than the Realm of the Dragon, or numerous Western Continent nations, or any of thousands of nations throughout fiction that are established by seizing territory in war.

Well, since "that's what war is", then you'll have no problem if, after the Lich is vanquished and Redcloak is slain, the Order and the Azurites, together with many allies, call a Crusade to recover the Azurite lands, kill all the 20.000 hobgoblins currently there, and then ride up the Hills and kill every goblinoid there, to make sure they can't repeat the deed again.

Because "that's what war is", doesn't it?

Or "that's what war is" only applies when it suits the goblinoids?

[M1982]

I'm treating your side of the debate as people who don't seem to mind that 530.000 people got their homes, freedom and in some cases lives stolen from them by a gang of brutal and mostly evil slaver invaders.

The normal expectation would be to have the victims get restitution, rather than to have the agressors get rewarded.

That's just how nations are made. There's hardly any modern nation (if at all) that did not experience that multiple times in the last millennia. Celts, Visgoths, Vandals, the list goes on and on until you get to modern nations such as Spain, France, Germany, etc. And on the other side of the atlantic it hasn't been any different.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm treating your side of the debate as people who don't seem to mind that 530.000 people got their homes, freedom and in some cases lives stolen from them by a gang of brutal and mostly evil slaver invaders.

The normal expectation would be to have the victims get restitution, rather than to have the agressors get rewarded.

Yes it has been stolen. Yes it is unjust. But again: if you insist on taking that back, your doing nothing but endangering those people again and for what? a plot of land? some buildings? while restitution can take many forms without having anyone getting killed over it, or the hobgoblins chance at a better life ruined. justice need not be an eye for an eye.

You said that you are not defending that Gobbotopia should keep existing with slavery. Therefore, it's moot that you discuss the specific numbers.

If you say that you don't endorse slavery, then it doesn't matters if the ratio of goblinoids-to-slaves is 1-1, 1-5, or 1-20, as you agree nonetheless that it has to stop.

{Scrubbed}

Well, since "that's what war is", then you'll have no problem if, after the Lich is vanquished and Redcloak is slain, the Order and the Azurites, together with many allies, call a Crusade to recover the Azurite lands, kill all the 20.000 hobgoblins currently there, and then ride up the Hills and kill every goblinoid there, to make sure they can't repeat the deed again.

Because "that's what war is", doesn't it?

Or "that's what war is" only applies when it suits the goblinoids?

Except, what your describing isn't war. every single goblinoid? Every civilian? every child? thats not war, thats genocide. the hobgoblins didn't go about exterminating humans out of existence even if they did enslave them and they didn't go pursuing after the Azure Fleet to kill them off. to respond with genocide is to be even worse than the goblins. you do not respond to something like this by being even worse. do it and your only proving Redcloak right.