Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

[quinron]

Crayons may be false, but I do not see how that means that goblins somehow "rejected" the gods.

As I said: conspiracy theory. It's just a juicy little conclusion I can jump to as a possibility that would add some interesting tension once it's revealed. I'm totally fine with - and honestly expecting - it no being the case.

He [the Oracle] is explicitly an Expert, not a Cleric. No magic at all, but god-given prophetic powers which exist outside of normal magical and clerical hierarchies

My bad - I tend to forget details like that, as I only recently got involved in these board discussions and haven't done much detail-digging. I think, though, that this fact makes a better case for the sub-point I was using it to make: that some of the monstrous races that the Mantle vision claimed were just XP fodder are in actuality important enough to the creator gods to be gifted with divine magic outside the proscribed system of advancement.

[Doug Lampert]

I would think that the news that everything he tried to build in Gobbotopia is gone, to the point that the souls of all those hobgoblins were consumed and won't even get to spend their afterlife with the Dark One would be a game-changer for Redcloak.

How so? He's ALREADY willing to see the soul of every goblin in existence destroyed as part of the plan. Why would a few thousand phase him?

And everything he "loses" (note that the actual losses are always to other goblins), just confirms to Redcloak that he must succeed to make everything have been worth it.

Wrongeye doesn't let trivialities like proof that he's made a mistake slow him down.

[Jasdoif]

It seems like a good starting point, though.

Indeed, negotiate for humans to have all the rights and protections of a goblin in Gobbotopia, establish trade if possible, guarantee the sovereignty of the new Azure city island nation so that they don't attack them, things like that are all things that should be considered.

I was thinking starting somewhere like...food.

Spoiler: War and XPs Bonus Content

Show

Azure City's agriculture was advanced enough to produce a small food surplus for its population of 530,000...including the approximately 265,000 that lived within the city walls, which of course is not where farming happens.

If Redcloak's relying on trade to stabilize the food situation, there's clearly more to the Azurite's agriculture than whatever stuff they left behind.

So that seems like an opener there: Gobbotopia release the slaves to Azurites so they don't need to keep feeding them, the Azurites loan Gobbotopia some experts on their agriculture to get them up to speed so they can be self-sufficient with less/no slaving/raiding; possibly throw in a stockpile of some sort until the agriculture project bears fruit (or grains)....The Azurites get their people unenslaved (deslaved?), the Gobbotopians reduce their reliance on outside resources for their continued existence; everyone comes out ahead. (The implementation would certainly be far messier than that, but gotta start somewhere.)

And if Gobbotopia doesn't go for it, the stated preference for slaving/raiding makes a good point for the Azurites trying to get more allies (especially from Gobbotopia's neighbors, the most likely targets of said slaving/raiding) onboard with less-diplomacy-based approaches.

[Ionathus]

I would think that the news that everything he tried to build in Gobbotopia is gone, to the point that the souls of all those hobgoblins were consumed and won't even get to spend their afterlife with the Dark One would be a game-changer for Redcloak.

Whether or not it would be a game-changer doesn't mean that it would fit the tone of the story around it.

Sam being unable to reach Frodo in time, and watching him get brutally murdered, would certainly be a strong motivator for Sam to take the Ring and finish the quest on his behalf. But that's not the way it happened, because that wouldn't have fit the tone of Lord of the Rings.

It's the same thing here for me. I just don't see any situation where an entire city of living people is eradicated offscreen, just to make Redcloak feel bad.

[Saint-Just]

The statu quo ante bellum is only a satisfactory solution if you posit there was nothing wrong with it, though.

It seems to me that it is the foundation of The Pilgrim's position: everything was fine and the goblinoids are the only aggressors.

It looks that such position mixes up "goblinoids" and Hobgoblin tribes and by extension the Azure City-state and "PC races" as Redcloak would call them. I do not pretend that in history (and in good literature dealing with all the messiness of actual politics) actually achieving status quo ante bellum was ever feasible (not only there are deaths which are irreversible but usually there are very significant destruction of property - which affects even more people - so someone will end up poorer, probably both but sometimes only one). And I do not find likely that in the situation the best way forward is continuation of war (though I do not dismiss that possibility outright). But that's about politics, about the best way forward, not about what is just.

I only own SoD and OtOoPCs so I may be missing some information but from what I gathered from this thread pre-war situation was one of lasting peace (12 years?) between the Hobgoblin tribes and the Azure City. Previous raiding cannot be justification for the aggression against the Azurites for two reasons: previous raiding was done by the both sides, so trying to demand any recompense whatsoever from the Azurites necessitates also calculating the Hobgoblins responsibility which would be absolutely impossible; more importantly peace treaties are at least in theory supposed to be the thing that washes off previous scores and provides some framework for peace, trade, or at least coexistence. So hobgoblins have violated the peace (note to those who say that we can't take in account possibility that overly generous peace terms now will incentivize further aggression) and are responsible for that.

I was thinking starting somewhere like...food.

Spoiler: War and XPs Bonus Content

Show

Azure City's agriculture was advanced enough to produce a small food surplus for its population of 530,000...including the approximately 265,000 that lived within the city walls, which of course is not where farming happens.

If Redcloak's relying on trade to stabilize the food situation, there's clearly more to the Azurite's agriculture than whatever stuff they left behind.

So that seems like an opener there: Gobbotopia release the slaves to Azurites so they don't need to keep feeding them, the Azurites loan Gobbotopia some experts on their agriculture to get them up to speed so they can be self-sufficient with less/no slaving/raiding; possibly throw in a stockpile of some sort until the agriculture project bears fruit (or grains)....The Azurites get their people unenslaved (deslaved?), the Gobbotopians reduce their reliance on outside resources for their continued existence; everyone comes out ahead. (The implementation would certainly be far messier than that, but gotta start somewhere.)

Seems like a tall order? It's one thing if hobgoblins end up with more resources (lands, goods, whatever) than they had when they started the war; it's entirely different thing if they end up with more resources by the end of negotiations than they had when negotiations have started. Release claims to the territory (and presumably help the Gobbotopia reach better recognition because now there is no choice between mainlining friendly relations with Azurites and relations and trading with Gobbotopia) is one thing; spending a lot of wealth to help Gobbotopia prosper least they abuse your countrymen is entirely another; depending on exact political situation it may be necessary but it is in effect making the enslaved population hostages; definitely not a way to cooperation.

It's the same thing here for me. I just don't see any situation where an entire city of living people is eradicated offscreen, just to make Redcloak feel bad.

Yeah not seeing it as likely; nor do I think that it necessary follows that if Snarl manifests through the Desert rift it also manifests through the Azure rift, no there is a surety that lashing out of Azure rift will destroy all or most of the city instead of taking just the castle remnants.

[Jasdoif]

it's entirely different thing if they end up with more resources by the end of negotiations than they had when negotiations have started.

That's the entire reason negotiations exist....

[The Pilgrim]

It seems to me that it is the foundation of The Pilgrim's position: everything was fine and the goblinoids are the only aggressors.

Of course the goblinoids were the agressors in the war depicted in the Comic. That's fact. They were the ones crossing the border and marching their army deep into Azurite territory.

Only derranged people like Redcloak may believe that killing one third of the hobgoblin population and killing, enslaving or evicting from their homes 530.000 persons was a necessity to correct the "unfair" status quo before the war. A status quo that anyone who has read HtPGhS knows to have been the Azurites and the Goblinoids living in peace, with the latter thriving in their mountain homeland.

[Saint-Just]

That's the entire reason negotiations exist....

Um, no? I was explicitly referring to the physical resources here. Or would you consider the idea of "you liberate the slaves, we drop any claims to the lands and help you to establish diplomatic communications with other nations" so biased in the Azurites' favour that no sane leader would take it? In this case Gobbotopia gains nothing physical.

In the more general case it is absolutely impossible for everyone to leave negotiations with more resources than they have started with. You were probably referring to the resources desirability or to the comparative advantage in the long run.

[Jason]

Whether or not it would be a game-changer doesn't mean that it would fit the tone of the story around it...It's the same thing here for me. I just don't see any situation where an entire city of living people is eradicated offscreen, just to make Redcloak feel bad.

V executed through Familiacide a huge number of people, mostly off-panel, and when he found Girard's family all dead the net effect story-wise was for V to feel bad and engage in some introspective character growth.

[Jasdoif]

I was explicitly referring to the physical resources here.

So noted.

In the more general case it is absolutely impossible for everyone to leave negotiations with more resources than they have started with. You were probably referring to the resources desirability or to the comparative advantage in the long run.

I was referring to value, the thing negotiations (and trade) try to maximize; and how different parties have different values on the same things, the reason negotiations (and trade) ever make sense. For example, I'm fairly confident the Azurites place more value on the lives of the Azurite slaves, than the Gobbotopians who enslaved them do.

[Lord Raziere]

I only own SoD and OtOoPCs so I may be missing some information but from what I gathered from this thread pre-war situation was one of lasting peace (12 years?) between the Hobgoblin tribes and the Azure City. Previous raiding cannot be justification for the aggression against the Azurites for two reasons: previous raiding was done by the both sides, so trying to demand any recompense whatsoever from the Azurites necessitates also calculating the Hobgoblins responsibility which would be absolutely impossible; more importantly peace treaties are at least in theory supposed to be the thing that washes off previous scores and provides some framework for peace, trade, or at least coexistence. So hobgoblins have violated the peace (note to those who say that we can't take in account possibility that overly generous peace terms now will incentivize further aggression) and are responsible for that.

If you haven't read Good Deeds Gone Unpunished then.....

Spoiler: How the Paladin Got His Scar spoilers

Show

In this story, the hobgoblins raid an outlying settlement seemingly unprovoked. O-Chul, the soldier in charge and not yet a paladin decides to investigate and figure out a way to stop this before the nobles in Azure City push for war, as war between the hobgoblins and the Azurites would only help an empire known as the Realm of the Dragon, making them see an opportunity to move in and attack them.

stuff happens, they work with two hobgoblin civilians who basically tell them that hobgoblin leaders basically spew out propaganda about humans and burn effigies of them in a lazy hate sort of way to blame all their problems on humans, but actually doing something about it isn't really the goal.

and basically they find out the Sapphire Guard is raiding the hobgoblins in secret trying to find Redcloak which could lead to an unnecessary war. the Sapphire Guard and its mission not being known to O-chul yet. they talk to the first hobgoblin supreme leader and O-chul has to use realpolitik and explain the situation in terms the hobgoblins would understand as "we don't want to waste resources on this war" because they don't understand the compassionate humanitarian reasons and think its the talk of madmen.

but basically O-chul gives a speech at the climax about how "there are two sides in a war: those want a war, and those who don't." and goes on to show how both sides have people in them who don't want a war and people who do, that the people who do are more similar to each other than their allies. and ends up preventing the war on his side, thought its only prevented from the hobgoblin end by the first hobgoblin supreme leader getting killed by second one to make sure it doesn't happen years down the line afterwards, as the second is busy trying to reorganize their society to try and better solve its problems.

The problem is....

Spoiler: Start of Darkness Spoilers

Show

......Redcloak is a victim of Sapphire Guard attacks long before this ever happened. The entire reason that the hobgoblins went to war is because Redcloak was wronged in a seemingly unrelated incident but then he took over their country, and his problem became the hobgoblins problem. so both Redcloak and the hobgoblins have been victim of the Sapphire Guard attacking them, and technically for the same reason both times, and both times they put blame on the entire species of humans for it despite the Sapphire Guard being a secretive organization that few humans know about or would endorse due to the actions it took.

But then again if the situation was reversed, given that this is a DnD world I doubt humans seeing a raiding party of goblins going around killing humans for the greater good of the universe would go over well either, nor would they be any less vengeful and prejudiced in their response to all goblins. certainly if Gin-Jun is any indication there are humans perfectly willing to zealously hate goblins just because of the cosmic evil label.

even further, the Sapphire Guard is like, two people now. currently imprisoned somewhere near the polar regions of stickverse, and people who didn't really have anything to do with the those raids besides. technically O-Chul is not responsible for anything that happened even though he the sapphire guards captain (but he is so self-sacrificing that he is the type to take responsibility anyways, as he did when he entered the Sapphire Guard).
so really its a complicated situation where:
-the wounded party was wounded long before anyone else, but caused more suffering as a result
-its unprovoked to everyone who doesn't have a personal connection to the events
-the provokers of both incidents are dead now and the only remnants are people who had nothing to do with the initial injustices inflicted upon the goblins

so its one of those cases where war happens because there are other motives involved than the nations motives for this or that, which screws up the negotiation as both sides technically have organizations with motives that have nothing to do with their nations wellbeing:
-the Sapphire Guard their quest to protect the universe
-Redcloak his quest to threaten the gods to make changes

It has to be acknowledged that both sides had people that weren't acting with the nation's consensus on the matter as both of their quests are secret in some manner and caused unneeded suffering as a result. I don't think you could have a fair negotiation without this being acknowledged on both sides.

[The Pilgrim]

I only own SoD and OtOoPCs so I may be missing some information but from what I gathered from this thread pre-war situation was one of lasting peace (12 years?) between the Hobgoblin tribes and the Azure City. Previous raiding cannot be justification for the aggression against the Azurites for two reasons: previous raiding was done by the both sides, so trying to demand any recompense whatsoever from the Azurites necessitates also calculating the Hobgoblins responsibility which would be absolutely impossible; more importantly peace treaties are at least in theory supposed to be the thing that washes off previous scores and provides some framework for peace, trade, or at least coexistence. So hobgoblins have violated the peace (note to those who say that we can't take in account possibility that overly generous peace terms now will incentivize further aggression) and are responsible for that.

You got the facts in HtPGhS basically right. If you want to have it all spoiled to you, you may read the storyline here:
https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/How_the...n_Got_His_Scar

If you don't want it spoiled that much, the relevant information about the pre-"War and XPs" situation is:

Spoiler: How the Paladin got his Scar

Show

Twelve years ago:
- The Hobgoblins and Azurites had been at peace for almost a decade.
- The Sapphire Guard, acting on it's own (Lord Shojo doesn't cares to pay attention to them) begins raiding Hobgoblin Villages looking for the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle (who is totally not there).
- The Hobgoblins begin to raid human villages as reprisal.
- O-Chul (then a Regular Army Captain, not a member of the Sapphire Guard) learns that the Hobgoblins are attacking as reprisal for the actions of an human cavalry squadron, and is sent by the Army General into hobgoblin territory to investigate (they don't know about the Sapphire Guard, as it's a secret organization)

By the end of O-Chul's mission:
- The extremist elements had been removed from leadership of the Sapphire Guard, the rest realizing their raids on hobgoblin territory were wrong.
- The Hobgoblin Leader had granted peace to the Azurites, as he was not interested in warfare but in developing his own land.
- Lord Shojo realizes he has done wrong for not checking on the Paladins, and introduces reforms on the Sapphire Guard.

That was the pre-war status quo, that some people here believe necessary of correction at the cost of the deaths of one third of the Hobgoblins and the death, enslavement or eviction of 530,000 humans.

[Ionathus]

V executed through Familiacide a huge number of people, mostly off-panel, and when he found Girard's family all dead the net effect story-wise was for V to feel bad and engage in some introspective character growth.

Hm, fair point. The destruction of Gobbotopia still feels different to me, but I'll concede that the OotS world is no stranger to death en-masse.

That was the pre-war status quo, that some people here believe necessary of correction at the cost of the deaths of one third of the Hobgoblins and the death, enslavement or eviction of 530,000 humans.

Please stop asserting that this is anyone's actual position. Nobody is saying that the invasion of Azure City was "necessary." I'm certainly not.

Believing that goblinoids were getting a raw deal is not the same as believing their attack on AC was justified.

You and I disagree on the first point, while agreeing on the second.

We also disagree on the characters' available options going forward, now that Gobbotopia is (tenuously) established and the Azurites have begun to put down roots elsewhere.

[The Pilgrim]

Please stop asserting that this is anyone's actual position. Nobody is saying that the sacking of Azure City was "necessary."

hroþila and Fyraltari are. They both have objected on my position on the grounds of the previous status quo somewhat making the sacking necessary.

I suppose they will now deny it, leaving their previous objections to my position pointless.

I'm certainly not.

No, you are not, and I know it. I'm not replying to your position now.

[Saint-Just]

I was referring to value, the thing negotiations (and trade) try to maximize; and how different parties have different values on the same things, the reason negotiations (and trade) ever make sense. For example, I'm fairly confident the Azurites place more value on the lives of the Azurite slaves, than the Gobbotopians who enslaved them do.

Lives are a funny thing. For a Paladin-led Azurite government (being heavy on Honor helps too) lives of the fellow citizens should be worth about infinity minus one. Or at least everything they could spare which doesn't result in more deaths and suffering (and then you go down the rabbit hole of "how far in the future we need to look" and "how big the error margins we can afford").

And yet even "influencing position on human slavery through economic engagement" is saying "slavery is not a dealbreaker". Negotiating value of the slave labor lost means you actually recognize that slave labor rightfully belongs to them. Intersection between people (organizations, governments) willing to pay for release of all the captives indiscriminately, merely because that they are citizens and people actually recognizing prisoners as a legitimate part of war booty is extremely small; it seems that after arranging payments there is very good (and very Good if not Lawful) reason to screw the hostage-takers as much as possible as long as it doesn't endanger the hostages.

Ionathus and Lord Raziere seems to be envisioning some sort of reconciliation, and I do agree that it is probable given the tone of work. You are talking about goblins demanding even more than they have in exchange for slaves; and it is also a possible situation (and probably Hinjo will pay). I do not believe it could be the same situation - either goblins are seen as "one of us" by the other states and people or they reserve the right to enslave and be paid in full for the slaves.

Going back to value: Azurites hold intangible resource of their diplomatical standing,land claims and alliances; they can use it to harm Gobbotopia (again it is strongly implied that elves in particular are ready to further commit their forces). To speak plainly Azurites can remove the status of a crusade-bait from Gobbotopia. And that is what the Durkon's agreement was: Azurites remove that status and do a few other diplomatic things (all of which cost very little to the Azurites but give significant value to Gobbotopia) and Gobbotopia releases the slaves and otherwise is given legal possession of everything they have physical possession of. To actually deprive the Azurite refugees of food or even money which can be used to better their lives sets entirely different tone for the future relations. Oh, and aforementioned pulling of the diplomatic strings is something which is harder to demand than to give willingly - demanding that elves should recognize Gobbotopia and promise not to intervene before Gobbotopians release the slaves makes it look like they are demanding of the Azurites something that is not in their power (whether it is actually in their power or not; I do not think that outsiders would be able to reliably guess how far would other countries be willing to extend their goodwill if the Azurites ask for it).

The problem is....

Spoiler: Start of Darkness Spoilers

Show

......Redcloak is a victim of Sapphire Guard attacks long before this ever happened. The entire reason that the hobgoblins went to war is because Redcloak was wronged in a seemingly unrelated incident but then he took over their country, and his problem became the hobgoblins problem. so both Redcloak and the hobgoblins have been victim of the Sapphire Guard attacking them, and technically for the same reason both times, and both times they put blame on the entire species of humans for it despite the Sapphire Guard being a secretive organization that few humans know about or would endorse due to the actions it took.

But then again if the situation was reversed, given that this is a DnD world I doubt humans seeing a raiding party of goblins going around killing humans for the greater good of the universe would go over well either, nor would they be any less vengeful and prejudiced in their response to all goblins. certainly if Gin-Jun is any indication there are humans perfectly willing to zealously hate goblins just because of the cosmic evil label.

even further, the Sapphire Guard is like, two people now. currently imprisoned somewhere near the polar regions of stickverse, and people who didn't really have anything to do with the those raids besides. technically O-Chul is not responsible for anything that happened even though he the sapphire guards captain (but he is so self-sacrificing that he is the type to take responsibility anyways, as he did when he entered the Sapphire Guard).
so really its a complicated situation where:
-the wounded party was wounded long before anyone else, but caused more suffering as a result
-its unprovoked to everyone who doesn't have a personal connection to the events
-the provokers of both incidents are dead now and the only remnants are people who had nothing to do with the initial injustices inflicted upon the goblins

so its one of those cases where war happens because there are other motives involved than the nations motives for this or that, which screws up the negotiation as both sides technically have organizations with motives that have nothing to do with their nations wellbeing:
-the Sapphire Guard their quest to protect the universe
-Redcloak his quest to threaten the gods to make changes

It has to be acknowledged that both sides had people that weren't acting with the nation's consensus on the matter as both of their quests are secret in some manner and caused unneeded suffering as a result. I don't think you could have a fair negotiation without this being acknowledged on both sides.

I see no problem. What you describe sounds more like in-person conflict resolution techniques that the state diplomacy. I do not think that either acknowledgement is necessary. Words are cheap, especially if it's representatives of conglomerates of thousands upon thousands of people and not just two or five or twelve persons. Well, I cannot exactly fault the idea of making apologies but I do see it as entirely orthogonal to the actual conflict resolution

That was the pre-war status quo, that some people here believe necessary of correction at the cost of the deaths of one third of the Hobgoblins and the death, enslavement or eviction of 530,000 humans.

Yes, I do agree that the just resolution here would be to send Hobgoblins "home without boots, and in foul weather too". It is unlikely to be easily achievable, so the Good (humane) solution will likely result in giving the hobgoblins (the legal right to) significantly more than they had pre-war. But nothing whatsoever that could happen to a Redcloak 34 years ago could justify the war.

Please stop asserting that this is anyone's actual position. Nobody is saying that the invasion of Azure City was "necessary." I'm certainly not.

Believing that goblinoids were getting a raw deal is not the same as believing their attack on AC was justified.

You and I disagree on the first point, while agreeing on the second.

hroþila and Fyraltari are. It's their actual position.

I will let people speak for themselves but from my screen it looks like nobody actually saying the attack is justified but some people think that the plight of goblinhood is relevant and should be taken into account (not the same as justification) and others (Pilgrim and me) think that it isn't; at least as far as states and not people are concerned. I also do not think the only good resolution is goblins leaving the Azure City.

[The Pilgrim]

Yes, I do agree that the just resolution here would be to send Hobgoblins "home without boots, and in foul weather too". It is unlikely to be easily achievable, so the Good (humane) solution will likely result in giving the hobgoblins (the legal right to) significantly more than they had pre-war. But nothing whatsoever that could happen to a Redcloak 34 years ago could justify the war.

The Good solution depends on a lot of varibles, including what the Hobgoblins will really want once they are freed from Redcloak's influence. So we shall see. I'm not really looking forward to another war, though. At least, not an on-screen one. But Gobbotopia's preceived strenght will drastically change once the Lich and Redcloak are no more.

Wthout fear of the Lich, Azurite allies may have the guts to actually attack.

Without Team Evil, the Hobgoblin Horde is too individually weak to stand a chance against High-Level PCs.

And who knows, maybe a lot of goblin inmigrants come in, and goblins and hobgoblins begin a civil war. The existence of sectarian divisions among goblinoids has been heavy hinted by the Author.

For a lot of reasons, after Xykon and Redcloak are out of the picture, the Hobgoblins may realize it's best for them to grab the loot and return to their homes, instead of remaining in Azurite lands and get killed.

[Saint-Just]

The Good solution depends on a lot of varibles, including what the Hobgoblins will really want once they are freed from Redcloak's influence. So we shall see. I'm not really looking forward to another war, though. At least, not an on-screen one. But Gobbotopia's preceived strenght will drastically change once the Lich and Redcloak are no more.

Wthout fear of the Lich, Azurite allies may have the guts to actually attack.

Without Team Evil, the Hobgoblin Horde is too individually weak to stand a chance against High-Level PCs.

And who knows, maybe a lot of goblin inmigrants come in, and goblins and hobgoblins begin a civil war. The existence of sectarian divisions among goblinoids has been heavy hinted by the Author.

For a lot of reasons, after Xykon and Redcloak are out of the picture, the Hobgoblins may realize it's best for them to grab the loot and return to their homes, instead of remaining in Azurite lands and get killed.

A lot of things can happen, and yes, it depends, but I try to look for what can be expected. Given my understanding of the situation Azurites are not in position to attack by themselves (not only they have lost large chunk of population and larger chunk of their military but they are far away from the Azure Cirty itself - so they are safer from Hobgoblins but Hobgoblins also get a defensive advantage) and coordinating alliances will take time - while the slaves suffer and die and also invites other powers to take a bite - even if other potential occupiers are significantly more Azurite-friendly.

Goblin Horde vs High-level PCs has bean dealt with in #417. Without optimization tricks (not used in the Stickyverse) going against such odds is not an option (even if it were so by the rules Giant doesn't want it).

And I think that Durkon's offers show us at least the general direction what will happen if there is any negotiation between the Azurites and Gobbotopia. Hobgoblins will gain something, some recognition, not just whatever they can carry on their backs*. Now, there are other possible resolutions, of course, but Hobgoblins getting up and leaving is a bit too clean.

*offer does not apply to carrying slaves

All in all it sounds like you are listing what you want to happen rather than what can be expected.

[Jasdoif]

And yet even "influencing position on human slavery through economic engagement" is saying "slavery is not a dealbreaker".

Indeed; "Influencing position on human slavery through economic engagement" is roughly equivalent to "don't give a **** about human slavery except to use its existence as a nice-sounding excuse for economic engagement".

Negotiating value of the slave labor lost means you actually recognize that slave labor rightfully belongs to them.

Similarly to the city itself, I'm pretty sure they have slave labor; and pretending they don't is tacit approval of them retaining it. Much like "deserve", "rightfully" has nothing to do with it.

Ionathus and Lord Raziere seems to be envisioning some sort of reconciliation, and I do agree that it is probable given the tone of work. You are talking about demanding goblins demanding even more than they have in exchange for slaves; and it is also a possible situation (and probably Hinjo will pay). I do not believe it could be the same situation - either goblins are seen as "one of us" by the other states and people or they reserve the right to enslave and be paid in full for the slaves.

Well, I said it was somewhere to start because I saw it as a starting point, with an expectation that an actual reconciliation (if any) would be down the road (after both sides have shown they'll honor an agreement with each other, perhaps).

Perhaps more to your point, the "stockpile" thing is for a very simple reason: Gobbotopia would almost certainly balk at the Wimpy-esque proposal of letting all the slaves go now for a burger better agriculture months in the future, and an offer to cover the gap in the interim is going to be a stronger sign of good faith than the simple declaration of Hinjo saying "you can trust me, I'm a paladin".

Going back to value: Azurites hold intangible resource of their diplomatical standing,land claims and alliances; they can use it to harm Gobbotopia (again it is strongly implied that elves in particular are ready to further commit their forces).

This is where it gets questionable....Azure City's already been rebuffed on their attempts thus far; and while that was stated to be because of Xykon, it's unclear whether they'd actually change their minds after Xykon's out of the picture or if they'd find new reasons to stay out of it.


(Also, I've been assuming that the scenario here is that the world's been saved, the Snarl's been sealed, Team Evil is out of the picture, etc.; so an agreement between nations isn't liable to be voided by either nation being expunged by an epic threat....So by extension there's no high-level OotS nor high-level Team Evil involved here, and the Azurites and Gobbotopians are trying to deal with each other's existence on their own terms. Apologies if that hasn't been the case.)

[Ironsmith]

And I think that Durkon's offers show us at least the general direction what will happen if there is any negotiation between the Azurites and Gobbotopia. Hobgoblins will gain something, some recognition, not just whatever they can carry on their backs*. Now, there are other possible resolutions, of course, but Hobgoblins getting up and leaving is a bit too clean.

At this point, they're established. With the help of the Order, I think a third option might come up: coexistence (albeit uneasy coexistence). The horde would likely have to be downsized; the hobgoblins would never agree for it to total disarmament for fear of being oppressed by the Azurites, and the Azurites would not agree to go back into a throng of hobgoblins for the same reasons, but an active presence in the city on both sides gives potential for reconciliation.

[hungrycrow]

Goblin Horde vs High-level PCs has bean dealt with in #417. Without optimization tricks (not used in the Stickyverse) going against such odds is not an option (even if it were so by the rules Giant doesn't want it).

There'd be a lot different if the Order were to go up against the Horde at the end of the story: the Order is higher level, all the high level members of the Goblin Horde are gone, and the Order no longer has to worry about defending the city, so they can retreat and reengage as they like. They still couldn't fight every goblin soldier at once, but if they decided to kill off the hobgoblin leadership there's nothing that could really stop them.

Not gonna happen in Rich's story of course, but it's worth noting that Gobbotopia is in a terrible position if the Order wins without cutting a deal with Redcloak.

[Saint-Just]

Similarly to the city itself, I'm pretty sure they have slave labor; and pretending they don't is tacit approval of them retaining it. Much like "deserve", "rightfully" has nothing to do with it.

Well, I said it was somewhere to start because I saw it as a starting point, with an expectation that an actual reconciliation (if any) would be down the road (after both sides have shown they'll honor an agreement with each other, perhaps).

Perhaps more to your point, the "stockpile" thing is for a very simple reason: Gobbotopia would almost certainly balk at the Wimpy-esque proposal of letting all the slaves go now for a burger better agriculture months in the future, and an offer to cover the gap in the interim is going to be a stronger sign of good faith than the simple declaration of Hinjo saying "you can trust me, I'm a paladin".

My point was more along the lines: people dealing with Gobbotopia don't recognize their ownership of slaves (they don't, probably on entirely different level from material possessions - you can say hobgoblins de-facto own the city without it being in the least contentious, but to say that they de-facto own the slaves implies endorsement of slavery in general), so unless very strongly Lawful (to a degree that I am not sure is demanded from every paladin in Stickyverse) you are free and almost encouraged to not pay up or do something else that screws up Gobbotopia. Even if nothing can safely be done before exchange is completed there is still every reason to oppose the Gobbotopia after that.

(Also, I've been assuming that the scenario here is that the world's been saved, the Snarl's been sealed, Team Evil is out of the picture, etc.; so an agreement between nations isn't liable to be voided by either nation being expunged by an epic threat....So by extension there's no high-level OotS nor high-level Team Evil involved here, and the Azurites and Gobbotopians are trying to deal with each other's existence on their own terms. Apologies if that hasn't been the case.)

No questions about that.

At this point, they're established. With the help of the Order, I think a third option might come up: coexistence (albeit uneasy coexistence). The horde would likely have to be downsized; the hobgoblins would never agree for it to total disarmament for fear of being oppressed by the Azurites, and the Azurites would not agree to go back into a throng of hobgoblins for the same reasons, but an active presence in the city on both sides gives potential for reconciliation.

Ionathus is proposing something like that; I say time after time that it is unjust AND that it is a good way forward which - unless tempers rise too high - will allow for Azurites regain most of what they had and for Hobgoblins to keep most of what they have.

[Fyraltari]

hroþila and Fyraltari are. They both have objected on my position on the grounds of the previous status quo somewhat making the sacking necessary.

I suppose they will now deny it, leaving their previous objections to my position pointless.

I dare you to quote me on this, find one time in that thread where I said the sacking of Gobbotopia was either just or necessary.

Edit: I meant Azure City.

[Kelenius]

Is this a replacement for Miko as a forum hot topic?

[Fyraltari]

Is this a replacement for Miko as a forum hot topic?

Has been for a long while.

At least Hilgya seems to be a dead topic.

[M1982]

That's the entire reason negotiations exist....

It's an ideal reason for negotiations.

Negotiating with the goal of losing less in the end than without negotiations is also common

[hroþila]

I dare you to quote me on this, find one time in that thread where I said the sacking of Gobbotopia was either just or necessary.

To be fair, you've said that like x100000~infinite times more than me.

[Fyraltari]

To be fair, you've said that like x100000~infinite times more than me.

I've never said that!

Edit: okay, I think you're teasing me because I typed Gobbotopia instead of Azure City.

[hungrycrow]

the sacking of Gobbotopia was either just or necessary.

Edit: I meant Azure City.

Ha! I found it!

[The Pilgrim]

I dare you to quote me on this, find one time in that thread where I said the sacking of Gobbotopia was either just or necessary.

Edit: I meant Azure City.

Challenge Accepted.

As for why Gobbotopia is a necessity, it's because the goblins and humans have been at this for time immemorial and Gobbotopia is apparently the first time goblins have managed to get humans to treat with them diplomatically rather than alternating between isolation and war. It looks like the best shot there is to stop the slaughters.

Done.

How many Quatloos have I won?

(As I replied back then to your argument, HtPGhS demonstrates humans have treated Hobgoblins diplomatically before, managing to stop the slaughters and co-exist with them in Peace. SoD also gives an example of goblins and humans co-existing and even attending public spectacles together. Therefore, Gobbotopia, and thus the previus destruction of Azure City, is not a necessity and has never been a necessity for peaceful coexistence of goblinoids with humans).

[Ironsmith]

(As I replied back then to your argument, HtPGhS demonstrates humans have treated Hobgoblins diplomatically before, managing to stop the slaughters and co-exist with them in Peace. SoD also gives an example of goblins and humans co-existing and even attending public spectacles together. Therefore, Gobbotopia, and thus the previus destruction of Azure City, is not a necessity and has never been a necessity for peaceful coexistence of goblinoids with humans).

If I understand Fyralti's position right, that doesn't actually satisfy his conditions. Gobbotopia didn't *have* to be established in the ruins of Azure City. Hell, it didn't have to be established in any ruins at all: if Redcloak found that fortress of Hobgoblins and decided to develop it from a military base to a full-on city, we'd have both a Gobbotopia and Azure City, without any need for bloodshed.

The point is, the goblins having a city-state (and the political power it came with) might be needed for peaceful coexistence. Destriying Azure City is not.