Redcloak and the misattribution of blame

[Manga Shoggoth]

I woudl also argue that those evil nations still consist of neutral rank-and-file citiizens with only the leading positions held by evil people.

I wouldn't be so sure about that... At the very least the Platelet High School Band and the runners-up of the Miss Bloodstain Pagent might argue with your position, and it looks like Hurt and Burnie promote the activity. It's not just the leaders who are evil.

[hamishspence]

I wouldn't be 100% sure about that. In a world where people become a "winning high school band band" by arranging broken fingers for members of the other bands, or win a beauty pageant by eliminating rivals:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0755.html

it's quite plausible that "Evil goes all the way down"

EDIT: Swordsaged.

[arimareiji]

My opinion, from too many awful examples: When you start talking about how a group of people doesn't deserve to exist because they're evil (with your proof being the perceived actions of a subset), you've gone waaaaay off the rails. The only thing left is for you to abet or ally with those who want to "correct" that. And outsiders may have an increasingly-hard time telling which of you is the evil one.

[Darth Paul]

I woudl also argue that those evil nations still consist of neutral rank-and-file citiizens with only the leading positions held by evil people.

Real life has shown all too often that leaders who demonstrate no qualms about their own evil (as seen by an outside observer; it's also important to remember that almost everyone justifies their own actions as "for the greater good", or "because they had it coming", or "if we don't do it to them, they'll do it to us", or any of a hundred other "reasons"), tend to encourage the same behavior among their population, even if it's only because that sort of immorality (or at least amorality) becomes a survival tool in the regime. It's a sort of social Darwinism: A ruler who rewards ruthlessness will have more ruthless followers.

[BloodSquirrel]

sure they couldn't have done this in more early iterations of creating a Snarl prison, but as worlds legnthened into lasting for centuries, and now a thousand years they could've come up with a setting where no suffering happened, therefore giving no one any reason to to call upon the Snarl to solve any of their problems. Then simply instructed the populace and try and worship up a new god that wouldn't be a part of any of the existing pantheons so that a fourth quiddity may be formed.

You're making two false assumptions here-

First, that the worlds keep being destroyed because mortals are releasing the Snarl. This is wrong- the rifts formed on their own, before any mortal knew about the Snarl or that it could be used. The fact that they were sealed this time around gave the world a little extra life, but even without Xykon, Redcloak, and the Order destroying the gates, more rifts would eventually appear.

Second, that a fourth quiddity being formed was something they knew was possible. They didn't. That's what makes this cycle unique. That's why some gods are saying "Hey, we know this is possible now, let's blow up this world and start over, and see if we can make it happen again with a new god who is more willing to work with us.

[arimareiji]

You're making two false assumptions here-

First, that the worlds keep being destroyed because mortals are releasing the Snarl. This is wrong- the rifts formed on their own, before any mortal knew about the Snarl or that it could be used. The fact that they were sealed this time around gave the world a little extra life, but even without Xykon, Redcloak, and the Order destroying the gates, more rifts would eventually appear.

Second, that a fourth quiddity being formed was something they knew was possible. They didn't. That's what makes this cycle unique. That's why some gods are saying "Hey, we know this is possible now, let's blow up this world and start over, and see if we can make it happen again with a new god who is more willing to work with us.

A reference to back up BloodSquirrel's recap, tripped across it during a reread.

[The_Weirdo]

All right, lessee.

1- The crayon story may or not be true. Redcloak certainly seems to *believe* it and so does TDO, but we cannot really know how correct that info is.
2- That being said, there are a few things that corroborate the narrative; it sorta stretches probability that goblins were given only the worst lands. Furthermore, a decades-long campaign of attacks without the Paladins losing their powers strikes me as the gods being quite cavalier towards goblin life.
3- He now has a place for the goblins. And he's very much not wrong when he says that they'll need some guarantees that they won't simply be the target of a crusade the moment they drop their guard. That's not to say the snarl is one, it's just that, from a purely practical point of view, he does need some assurance.
4- Yes, he's got a severe issue with the sunk cost fallacy and that cost a lot of goblin lives; he's crossed the line from revolutionary to we-have-reserves general a while ago.
5- None of this changes the fact that Redcloak suffered a horrible injustice at the hands of the Sapphire Guard. One he literally had to gather an army and invade a city to see addressed, because, and let's be honest here, if he simply walked into Azure City and politely asked for reparations, he would in all likelihood have been killed. And the fact that, if the goblins indeed were put there as fodder, that issue needs addressing with the gods themselves as well.

An excellent way to humanize a villain is to create said villain in a way that the vast majority of readers would do the exact same as him in his position. And, on a side note, I wonder who the Azurite citizens that were enslaved will hate more if and when they learn the full history of just under what context Redcloak, that Consequence Elemental, attacked their city.

[Fyraltari]

An excellent way to humanize a villain is to create said villain in a way that the vast majority of readers would do the exact same as him in his position. And, on a side note, I wonder who the Azurite citizens that were enslaved will hate more if and when they learn the full history of just under what context Redcloak, that Consequence Elemental, attacked their city.

Oh, that's an easy one: Redcloak. People don't really care about the reason you hurt them, most of the time, only that you hurt them.

[The_Weirdo]

Oh, that's an easy one: Redcloak. People don't really care about the reason you hurt them, most of the time, only that you hurt them.

Fair. I suppose a better question is: "Will they hate their former leadership/the old Sapphire Guard paladins as well?"

[Fyraltari]

Fair. I suppose a better question is: "Will they hate their former leadership/the old Sapphire Guard paladins as well?"

You mean the ones who are all dead?

[The_Weirdo]

You mean the ones who are all dead?

You wouldn't believe how many dead people I hate and how many institutions I would love to take to task over the actions of said dead people.

[Fyraltari]

You wouldn't believe how many dead people I hate and how many institutions I would love to take to task over the actions of said dead people.

Institutions, you mean the Sapphire Guard? That has been disbanded?

[The_Weirdo]

Institutions, you mean the Sapphire Guard? That has been disbanded?

The government, in this case, as the SG was a branch thereof. To be sure, though, I'm fairly certain some spells could be devised to target the paladins that attacked the villages in the afterlife, but my point is to have at least some institution accountable and responsible for reparations. Because of the actions of the SG, these people were enslaved, and none of them could truly say they'd do things differently in Redcloak's place. Someone needs to answer for that - along with Redcloak himself, though it can be argued that he already has, given what happened to his family. And it doesn't need to be "punishment". It can be compensation. And maybe dishonoring the names of the members of the SG that took part in the attacks to the villages. Another suggestion, easily feasible, is making their gravestones, if any, a place for excursions of Azurite schoolchildren - along, of course, with adding a spittoon on top of each, so these people could be paid the respect they deserve.

[Dion]

Someone needs to answer for that

Well, you know what they say!

“The essence of the conception of righteousness, therefore, is to afford an outlet for sadism by cloaking cruelty as justice.”

And Redcloak is righteous.

[The_Weirdo]

Well, you know what they say!

“The essence of the conception of righteousness, therefore, is to afford an outlet for sadism by cloaking cruelty as justice.”

And you are righteous.

I'm not proposing Hinjo gets a hair on his head touched.

I'm advocating reparations and making it clear who's right and who's wrong. Lots of people are supremely understanding with regards to the pain inflicted on other people.

[dancrilis]

The government, in this case, as the SG was a branch thereof.

I am not sure they were - the Sapphire Guard was created by an adventurer who handed leadership of it to a guy whose position as ruler of Azure city was seperate from his position as commander of the Sapphire Guard.

Seperately the government has been effectively destroyed along with the guard.

Someone needs to answer for that - along with Redcloak himself, though it can be argued that he already has, given what happened to his family.

I don't think you can normally get away with saying 'I already answered answered for my poor behaviour' based on events that took place before said behaviour.

[The_Weirdo]

I am not sure they were - the Sapphire Guard was created by an adventurer who handed leadership of it to a guy whose position as ruler of Azure city was seperate from his position as commander of the Sapphire Guard.

Seperately the government has been effectively destroyed along with the guard.

The government will reform and its successors need to deal with the aftermath. If the SG was just a paramilitary group, condemn the ones that raided the village as such and implement the "spitting on their graves" plan.

I don't think you can normally get away with saying 'I already answered answered for my poor behaviour' based on events that took place before said behaviour.

And that can easily be argued, but the point is that all involved in the chain of events that led to the enslaving need to pay. Afterwards, there can be the discussion on whether or not Redcloak already did.

[Dion]

the point is that all involved in the chain of events that led to the enslaving need to pay.

Why? Why do you believe that Rich needs to write a story where someone has a “need to pay?”

Will you enjoy the story more if that happens?

More important, do you imagine that the rest of us will enjoy the story less if it doesn’t happen?

I mean, I kind of dont understand why you think the the story must go that way.

[The_Weirdo]

Why? Why do you believe that Rich needs to write a story where someone has a “need to pay?”

Will you enjoy the story more if that happens?

More important, do you imagine that the rest of us will enjoy the story less if it doesn’t happen?

I mean, I kind of do t understand why you are the the story must go that way.

I'm not discussing narrative or saying that the story should go this or that way; Rich's story is quite good and compelling as it is.

I'm discussing how things should/would go/feel from the point of view of the characters involved. Namely, for this context: how would you feel in the place of one of the Azurites that got enslaved? Would you not want the past dealt with? Would you not curse the very existence of the people that started the mess that directly resulted in your plight?

[Dion]

I'm not discussing narrative or saying that the story should go this or that way;

Oh, sorry. I was here to discuss the comic. Carry on.

[The_Weirdo]

Oh, sorry. I was here to discuss the comic. Carry on.

Discussing how characters within a piece of work would feel/think is an integral part of discussing said piece of work.

[Jason]

Because of the actions of the SG, these people were enslaved, and none of them could truly say they'd do things differently in Redcloak's place.

1) The Sapphire Guard never enslaved anybody. They periodically wiped out goblinoid settlements where their diviners said the Dark One's High Priest was located, but they never enslaved them. It's the hobgoblins who are enslaving people.
2) I'm sure any number of Azurites can honestly say they have no desire to enslave hobgoblins or goblins or even destroy their settlements. Redcloak's response to his trauma was not the only inevitable way to react to that trauma. He deserves the blame for chosing to respond as he did, with violence and oppression. He didn't have to chose revenge - and revenge against a whole city, the vast majority of which had no idea that they had ever wronged any goblins - rather than just the Sapphire Guard.

And maybe dishonoring the names of the members of the SG that took part in the attacks to the villages.

This already happened to some extent in How The Paladin Got His Scar.

Another suggestion, easily feasible, is making their gravestones, if any, a place for excursions of Azurite schoolchildren - along, of course, with adding a spittoon on top of each, so these people could be paid the respect they deserve.

They're already dead. They're already undergoing whatever judgement they received from their gods for their actions. The gravestones are also not presently accessible to Azurite school children who are not also slaves of the hobgoblins.

[Dion]

Edit: sorry. This is very silly. Dropping out.

[The_Weirdo]

Redcloak's response to his trauma was not the only inevitable way to react to that trauma.

And yet, it was by no means an unforeseeable response to his trauma, no?

I'm not saying Recloak isn't Evil, I'm not saying his actions aren't despicable, I'm not saying he's not a villain and I'm not saying he should not be punished. I'm saying he's a consequence.

They're already dead. They're already undergoing whatever judgement they received from their gods for their actions. The gravestones are also not presently accessible to Azurite school children who are not also slaves of the hobgoblins.

Sure, I mean, once it's all settled and the presently slaves are freed and so on. As for divine judgment, eh. I would argue that it only qualifies as "enough" if it is seen by the people that got the short end of the stick for their actions.

[Jason]

And yet, it was by no means an unforeseeable response to his trauma, no?

"Foreseeable" is not quite the same thing as "everybody in the same position would have acted the same."

I'm not saying Recloak isn't Evil, I'm not saying his actions aren't despicable, I'm not saying he's not a villain and I'm not saying he should not be punished. I'm saying he's a consequence.

Saying "he's a consequnce" or "anyone would have done the same" is a way of arguing he is not really responsible for his choices. In other words it is a way of arguing that he is not evil.

Sure, I mean, once it's all settled and the presently slaves are freed and so on.

What makes you think that will happen? I think it's much more likely the Snarl has already emerged and devoured the souls of everyone in the city, leaving it a devastated wasteland that no one will return to for centuries, assuming the world is not destroyed in the meantime,

As for divine judgment, eh. I would argue that it only qualifies as "enough" if it is seen by the people that got the short end of the stick for their actions.

Not everyone wants to see their enemies in pain in order to receive closure. In fact, the desire to see those who wronged you suffer is often seen as an evil trait - vindictiveness.

[The_Weirdo]

"Foreseeable" is not quite the same thing as "everybody in the same position would have acted the same."

Saying "he's a consequnce" or "anyone would have done the same" is a way of arguing he is not really responsible for his choices. In other words it is a way of arguing that he is not evil.

What makes you think that will happen? I think it's much more likely the Snarl has already emerged and devoured the souls of everyone in the city, leaving it a devastated wasteland that no one will return to for centuries, assuming the world is not destroyed in the meantime,
Not everyone wants to see their enemies in pain in order to receive closure. In fact, the desire to see those who wronged you suffer is often seen as an evil trait - vindictiveness.

To be clear, RC is responsible for his choices. I'm just saying they did not, in fact, materialize out of thin air. There's a very slim chance he'd have invaded AC with an army if his village had been left in peace.

As for the snarl eating Gobbotopia/AC... Doesn't strike me as likely yet, not the least of it because it would be a rather weird way to tie up at least two loose ends: "the slaves got eaten and so did the formerly-oppressed-now-oppressors" seems a bit nihilistic.

[Jason]

To be clear, RC is responsible for his choices. I'm just saying they did not, in fact, materialize out of thin air. There's a very slim chance he'd have invaded AC with an army if his village had been left in peace.

The Plan required a gate be taken somewhere, so I wouldn't say it was all that slim a chance. Point taken, however. The Giant does seem to feel that the Azurites are at least partially responsible for Redcloak.

As for the snarl eating Gobbotopia/AC... Doesn't strike me as likely yet, not the least of it because it would be a rather weird way to tie up at least two loose ends: "the slaves got eaten and so did the formerly-oppressed-now-oppressors" seems a bit nihilistic.

I think the news that Gobbotopia and everyone in it was consumed will be useful motivation for Redcloak to finally get over his sunken cost fallacy and decide it's time to turn against Xykon. Or it will be another point to show just how committed (and irredeemable) he can be.

[The_Weirdo]

The Plan required a gate be taken somewhere, so I wouldn't say it was all that slim a chance. Point taken, however. The Giant does seem to feel that the Azurites are at least partially responsible for Redcloak.

The Plan had been on hold for ages until the Paladins had their fun in Redcloak's village.

I think the news that Gobbotopia and everyone in it was consumed will be useful motivation for Redcloak to finally get over his sunken cost fallacy and decide it's time to turn against Xykon. Or it will be another point to show just how committed (and irredeemable) he can be.

The sunk cost fallacy is pretty self-reinforcing. At any rate, if that does happen, I sorta hope Redcloak only dies after pointing out that none of that would have happened if the SG hadn't slaughtered his village. Sure, he can die or otherwise get his comeuppance, but I'd like the parting shot. And, well, it's also true.

[Dion]

I sorta home Redcloak only dies after pointing out that none of that would have happened if the SG hadn't slaughtered his village.

Uggh. That sounds awful. I really hope the comic doesn’t fall into the moral degeneracy of “an eye for an eye makes the whole world see the truth.”

That kind of terrible thinking - its ok for me to hurt you because you hurt me - is the worse evil in the world. Retribution is evil. I don’t want to read a comic that promotes evil.

[The_Weirdo]

Uggh. That sounds awful. I really hope rich doesn’t fall into the moral degeneracy of “an eye for an eye makes the whole world see the truth.”

That kind of terrible thinking - its ok for me to hurt you because you hurt me - is the very worse evil ever created in the world, and I have no interest in reading an apologia for that sickness.

It'd be Redcloak's perspective. I'm not arguing morality here. Neither am I arguing that it's okay. Heck, not even Redcloak might see it as okay by that point. But, well, it's a fact. It doesn't make it okay, but it is true and Redcloak by then would have every reason to be profoundly bitter. In all likelihood, Redcloak wouldn't have invaded AC if his village hadn't been destroyed by the SG, and, whether or not that justifies anything, the fact - and the pain, and the bitterness and all that it entails and created - remains. History needs to be addressed and it would be a complete waste to see the Paladins or the Azurites simply assume that Redcloak, the meanie, came out of nowhere for no reason because he's a meanie.

Things have contexts behind them, and it would be at least remiss of Redcloak not to point them out. Especially if and when he's already lost.