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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    It's also RAW for characters to research spells from other lists to have on their list. By RAW a wizard can research an arcane cure wounds spell for example.



    It is very easy to read that as giving permission to learn spells outside of provided spell lists.

    The biggest complaint for using the FAQ to arbitrate is that it contradicts itself and in many cases says the opposite of what is actually written. The FAQ works best when using it for ideas on how to arbitrate something yourself.
    1. The actual rule text here is sole the first sentence:

    You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast.
    Nowhere does this sentence give you the permission to learn spells from other classes. It allows you to "learn one additional spell .." that "you can currently cast". The spells you can cast belong to a class specific list. You cast Wizards spells or Druid spells or Bard spells.. No indicator that you may ignore what you are normally casting.

    2. All other sentences only give examples. And examples don't add rules, they explain/showchase rules.
    Extra Spell is generally used ..
    The beginning of the last sentence indicates that it is another example and doesn't add rules.

    3. "lacks access to and would be unable to research" is referring to the fact that the actual rule/benefit this feat gives is ignoring any prohibited schools wizards may have.
    Notice the "and" combining those conditions. It's not "or", so both conditions must be fulfilled for this example. There is sole one way to be generally (by the rules, not the DM ;) ) unable to research a certain spell. And that is by specializing in a school and thus giving up entire access to other schools of magic. Thus, this example is referring to that and not to picking spells from other classes list. Because spell research ain't generally prohibited to research spells from other classes spell list.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Nowhere does this sentence give you the permission to learn spells from other classes. It allows you to "learn one additional spell .." that "you can currently cast". The spells you can cast belong to a class specific list. You cast Wizards spells or Druid spells or Bard spells.. No indicator that you may ignore what you are normally casting.
    Nowhere does it restrict you from learning custom spells that are added to the spell list from research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    3. "lacks access to and would be unable to research" is referring to the fact that the actual rule/benefit this feat gives is ignoring any prohibited schools wizards may have.
    Notice the "and" combining those conditions. It's not "or", so both conditions must be fulfilled for this example. There is sole one way to be generally (by the rules, not the DM ;) ) unable to research a certain spell. And that is by specializing in a school and thus giving up entire access to other schools of magic. Thus, this example is referring to that and not to picking spells from other classes list. Because spell research ain't generally prohibited to research spells from other classes spell list.
    This feat does not give permission to have access to spells within your prohibited schools. In order to do so you would have to make a custom spell with a school that you have access to.

    Notice how the FAQ doesn't say that warmages can't research spells? Despite what the FAQ says, it doesn't prevent a player taking this feat from bypassing research requirements to add a spell to their list. Everything is under the control of what the DM allows. Many DMs don't allow spell research for custom spells, but that doesn't mean that the rules don't allow it.

    We can argue nuance all day and neither side is going to win because the wording is too vague to have the right understanding of RAI. RAW allows it to happen and RAW allows the DM to prevent shenanigans. The FAQ is not RAW nor is it RAI. This is not pathfinder.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-02-21 at 01:57 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Nowhere does it restrict you from learning custom spells that are added to the spell list from research.



    This feat does not give permission to have access to spells within your prohibited schools. In order to do so you would have to make a custom spell with a school that you have access to.

    Notice how the FAQ doesn't say that warmages can't research spells? Despite what the FAQ says, it doesn't prevent a player taking this feat from bypassing research requirements to add a spell to their list. Everything is under the control of what the DM allows. Many DMs don't allow spell research for custom spells, but that doesn't mean that the rules don't allow it.

    We can argue nuance all day and neither side is going to win because the wording is too vague to have the right understanding of RAI. RAW allows it to happen and RAW allows the DM to prevent shenanigans. The FAQ is not RAW nor is it RAI. This is not pathfinder.
    Point 3 is a quote form the actual feat description and thus a 100% RAW argument. I don't see how you have disproved it.
    lacks access to and would be unable to research.
    The sole thing that comes into my mind that fits both requirements are spells from forbidden schools. Spells from other classes can be researched by default (even if only under DM permission, but that is a global problem of spell research ifself) and thus don't work with the feat.
    Sorcerer easily qualify for this requirement due to their limited spell knowledge and the lack of "spell research".
    Wizards qualify with spells from forbidden schools. But since it is not spell research (it is sole part of the requirement), it did never gave you the permission to pick spells from other classes spell list.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Or perhaps unable to research due to lack of resources such as money or time? Lack of access could simply be that the wizard wouldn't be able to purchase or locate such a spell. Prohibited schools are prohibited schools.

    Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard
    Even if the feat let the wizard learn the spell, it doesn't remove the "not available" quality unless handwaved by the DM. A wizard has free reign to copy a spell from their prohibited school in their spellbook; doesn't mean they can cast it.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-02-22 at 10:30 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Or perhaps unable to research due to lack of resources such as money or time? Lack of access could simply be that the wizard wouldn't be able to purchase or locate such a spell. Prohibited schools are prohibited schools.
    If you want to argue that by "RAW" the feat can only be taken if you are to poor to effort to research is, I would give you a point. But I guess we can all agree that it shouldn't be the intention (RAI) of a feat to exclude the rich, with the exception of Vow of Poverty..^^

    Even if the feat let the wizard learn the spell, it doesn't remove the "not available" quality unless handwaved by the DM. A wizard has free reign to copy a spell from their prohibited school in their spellbook; doesn't mean they can cast it.
    So wanna say that, the feat lets you get a spell from other spell classes that is "not available" by normal means to you, but doesn't allow you to pick forbidden spells that are "not available" to you? Do you see the contradiction logic here?

    The conditions "lacks access" and "unable to search" only fit for "forbidden school spells from your class list" as prepared caster (.e.g. wizard) or lets spontaneous caster with limited spells known and without access to spell research pick a spell from their class list.

    The feat still never did give you the permission to pick from other classes lists (as "spell research" does as reference).

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    If you want to argue that by "RAW" the feat can only be taken if you are to poor to effort to research is, I would give you a point. But I guess we can all agree that it shouldn't be the intention (RAI) of a feat to exclude the rich, with the exception of Vow of Poverty..^^


    So wanna say that, the feat lets you get a spell from other spell classes that is "not available" by normal means to you, but doesn't allow you to pick forbidden spells that are "not available" to you? Do you see the contradiction logic here?

    The conditions "lacks access" and "unable to search" only fit for "forbidden school spells from your class list" as prepared caster (.e.g. wizard) or lets spontaneous caster with limited spells known and without access to spell research pick a spell from their class list.

    The feat still never did give you the permission to pick from other classes lists (as "spell research" does as reference).
    It says you learn them. It does not say you are allowed to cast them. If you want to houserule it that way, feel free. You don't have to be too poor to research the spell. It could be that your DM doesn't give you the merchants to buy from, let the scroll drop as a reward, or let you research the spell beyond what the class gives for free.

    This feat does not exclude the attainment of original/custom spells which is my argument from the start. This means that the feat would indeed have a use for warmage, who under normal circumstances would be unable to research original spells to add to their list thanks to the roleplay aspect of how they obtain their spells.

    Never once did I say that it was a blank check to pick whatever spell one wished outside of their own spell list. The only feat that does that is precocious apprentice, and even then only until you gain access to 2nd level spells; at which point you lose access to the spell.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    So I have been playing around with the duskblade trying to figure out what would be the best choice on the other side. Race is also open to suggestion. I like the idea of warblade as the other side but I feel like it conflicts a lot with duskblade unless you are cherry picking only swift action abilities. psychic warrior always struck me as a good choice because you can use your powers to focus on buffing but you start getting rather mad. swashbuckler doesn't offer enough bang for your buck unless you also add rogue but seems in general a little lackluster. Maybe fighter/Weapon Master to pickup Ki Whirlwind Attack and focus on hitting everyone within reach of your movement every round?

    Anyways let me know what people think makes for a good duskblade build combination!
    Psion (psychic warrior means wisdom, not int)

    fighter just for lots of feat fun is fine though, and beguiler, shadowcaster, wizard, etc all work of course. If it's high powered beyond the assumption gestalt implies, then you probably want to get reflex saves & a high skill point per level base for the other class.

    Still, from what you were thinking, a psion seems the best for you
    Last edited by CE DM; 2021-02-23 at 03:20 PM.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    In a Duskblade Gestalt, if PrCs are allowed, I'd say Wizard or other Int-caster would be the best option. PrC into Enlightened Fist to pick up Hold Ray and now you've got two great spell lists and some great rays and touch spells for shenanigans. That's what would be, in my mind, optimal.

    What I would actually play is different though. Probably Wizard on one end but PrC into Swiftblade9 on the Wizard side so you can get Perpetual Options and Full Attack Channeling. It's less efficient and loses you three caster levels, but Perpetual Options is just sooooo good.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    It's also RAW for characters to research spells from other lists to have on their list. By RAW a wizard can research an arcane cure wounds spell for example.
    Where is this text?
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanos View Post
    Where is this text?
    Under "Researching Original Spells" in the DMG. It even gives you guidelines but not hard and fast rules under "Creating New Spells."

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Under "Researching Original Spells" in the DMG. It even gives you guidelines but not hard and fast rules under "Creating New Spells."
    The guidelines under creating new spells specifically say to not do what you said, though:
    Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the best offensive spells. If the spell is flashy or dramatic, it should probably be a wizard/sorcerer spell.
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanos View Post
    The guidelines under creating new spells specifically say to not do what you said, though:
    They are guidelines, not rules. It's also not the only way to get healing spells as an arcane caster so it really isn't relevant to argue about my choice of example.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    They are guidelines, not rules. It's also not the only way to get healing spells as an arcane caster so it really isn't relevant to argue about my choice of example.
    I mean... I agree with you. Bards get Cure X spells as arcane spells anyway, so why can't a wizard or sorcerer get them via researching that class specifically?

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    I think a Warmage fits really well. With a dex and int focus, enough cha to cast. Could weapon finesse for melee and still be able to throw spells at range effectively. This setup utilizes the full range of spells and class features of both classes. For feats I'd not try to specialize, just pick up good individual ones like knowledge devotion.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by StSword View Post
    All things being equal, I'd say the best cross is Artificer.

    Duskmages are frontline warriors who know spells.

    Action economy being what it is, being an artificer so you have the best gear available while you swing a sword or cast a spell seems like the choice option.

    Choose to be warforged, and you can even heal yourself.
    Artificer is a great option which scales from naive T3-compatible playstyle, to outfitting the whole party & uplifting all of your friends, to being a solo T0 nation-state unto yourself.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    With good skills and skill points and a spell list covering options not on the Duskblade list, including non combat options, I think Duskblade and beguiller would mesh well.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Arcane Channeling gets better the more attacks you make so to that end how about Totemist? You could also try and swing Shadow Pounce

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilarian View Post
    Arcane Channeling gets better the more attacks you make so to that end how about Totemist? You could also try and swing Shadow Pounce
    I don't think that works. Arcane channelling is only good with multiple attacks with the same weapon (once you get the full-round channel ability). Totemists' multiple attacks tend to be with a lot of different weapons (because they are usually natural attacks) which means a maximum of one of them can channel the spell.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    I don't think that works. Arcane channelling is only good with multiple attacks with the same weapon (once you get the full-round channel ability). Totemists' multiple attacks tend to be with a lot of different weapons (because they are usually natural attacks) which means a maximum of one of them can channel the spell.
    At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.
    doesn't say anything about the weapon you use.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilarian View Post
    doesn't say anything about the weapon you use.
    I sit corrected (at home I have a standing desk so would "stand corrected") - nice spot!

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    To be fair, by that reading the spell would only affect every target once no matter how many times they got smacked, so maybe getting that many extra attacks isn't actually going to be that useful.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilarian View Post
    To be fair, by that reading the spell would only affect every target once no matter how many times they got smacked, so maybe getting that many extra attacks isn't actually going to be that useful.
    With some kind of Reach, you might be able to distribute a single spell to a lot of enemies.

    But yeah focus-fire is not the point of that feature.

    Something like the Arcane Strike feat has better synergy with a lot of natural weapons, and that does support focus-fire.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    With some kind of Reach, you might be able to distribute a single spell to a lot of enemies.

    But yeah focus-fire is not the point of that feature.

    Something like the Arcane Strike feat has better synergy with a lot of natural weapons, and that does support focus-fire.
    Bloodstorm Blade is the best option here as already mentioned. Combine with Whirlwind to hit all enemies in up to 50ft reach. Have a look a the build I have linked on the first page for an optimized build.

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Wizard, Cleric or Druid obviously — but I'd be tempted to go Beguiler.
    Well more precisely Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10
    This gives you more skill points, 5d6 sneak, good Will saves and more spells of a type you are missing.
    You can fill the Rogue role and have high level spells - albeit of a limited type.
    Beguiler has a lot of utility spells which are generally useful and plenty of slots to burn on Arcane strike.
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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    I'm rusty on my RAW, but could you use Arcane Channelling when you use a Maneuver? If so, duskblade//warblade (or "Duskwarblade" for short) could make a really nice gish!

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    I'm rusty on my RAW, but could you use Arcane Channelling when you use a Maneuver? If so, duskblade//warblade (or "Duskwarblade" for short) could make a really nice gish!
    basic arcane channeling takes its own standard action, while the 13th level one piggybacks off of a full attack action, which is relevant to some maneuvers (like time stands still)

    Even if they couldnt use any strikes though, boosts, counters and stances can still be a good enough benefit to consider. That's how people make ToB archers work

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    Default Re: What is the best choice for the other side of gestalt for a duskblade

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Bloodstorm Blade is the best option here as already mentioned. Combine with Whirlwind to hit all enemies in up to 50ft reach. Have a look a the build I have linked on the first page for an optimized build.
    Hmm I am vaguely intrigued to try a Dervish build on the other side but Dervish Dance does say "a dervish cannot use skills or abilities that involve concentration or require her to remain still, such as Move Silently, Hide, or Search." so I think that means casting a touch attack spell is out? Granted a duskblade does not require using the concentration skill to cast touch spells in combat so might be able to swing it not sure.

    What do people think could you Dervish Dance while Arcane channeling (full attack)? If so I am thinking something along the lines of Fighter 2/ swordsage 2/Warblade 1/Dervish10/Blade Dancer 5 on the other side...

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