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2021-02-11, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-11, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
There are many alternatives, from Mindrape to Epic Diplomacy. I chose the Necrotic tumors for a visceral "the gods have chosen to excise the tumor of failure from their world".
Also, because that's the tech a particular existing character had on hand.
Of note: they are completely unused after the initial takeover - subsequent generations (and other worlds) don't need them.
And, while we care whether other worlds join, in the same way a good person cares whether someone is starving to death, we're the most laid back, non-aggressive, non-pushy invasion force ever. We're already in paradise - we are just offering you the opportunity to join us. We don't gain anything from it but a clear conscience.
A meme people reference. Just a placeholder. Not important.
Ah. An OP prestige class. Sacrifice Wisdom for power. Extreme power. For simplicity, assume save DC is "you fail", and spell points are "plenty".
In reality, in this scenario, it's actually a vulnerability.
But, the important part is, the character is (supposed to feel like) the embodiment of »alignment«. Cut them open, and they bleed divine light and gears.
Doesn't matter. Probably someone to cast "Teleport" for me, several people with True Resurrection, and the mandator 5-year-old advisor I kidnapped (or used someone's Leadership pool for, or…).
After the setup, my death completely stops the expansion (until the gods chose another Chosen One), but is completely irrelevant to the running of the existing Harmonious Paradises.
Already answered:
Bolded the most relevant entries.
But "I" don't (outside the setup phase) - missionaries do.
Folk. Whatever they want to look like, really, but mostly just folk.
Think "gene stealer cult".
I may have to "brand" "official" "missionaries".
Brand: create uniforms for
Official: as if they aren't all working for the Greater Good.
Missionaries: the official ones would bring more relevant stuff with them; the "unofficial" ones would just… gather information, tell tales, form "cults".
Whatever he wants. On both counts.
Most just look like folk. And ants. And ducks. And bacteria. And blades of grass. And every other living creature on a perfectly normal world.
Their corpses add to the available matter. Circle of life.
I can only repeat what I said already.
There are no rules for what level spell "planet-wide hive mind" or "grant power 'teleport at will' to citizens" are.
Or what level they become when you include, "requires 1,000 9th level spells, 2,000 8th level spells, 4,000 7th level spells…" etc to power the spell.
Or even "requires 200,000,000 followers calling out thename of the Doctorthe names of the gods during the casting".
So, what can I do with those "rules"? I can point out that they consist of "mother may I" and a few pages of not terribly useful guidelines and examples… throw them in the trash, and point to the actual, concrete rules of 3e epic spells.
What can *you* do with those rules (other than ask "mother may I?")?
More sanity points than you have to spare
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2021-02-11, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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2021-02-11, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
So, the flaws of my galactic empire are numerous.
The biggest is its benevolence. Because it doesn't exist where it's not wanted, missionaries have to leave Paradise in order to spread the Word. Clearly, then, missionaries are all Exalted Good, "put Paladins to shame" individuals who care very deeply about the suffering of others, to be willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, separated from the Collective, and sent out alone into the cold, unforgiving, Mythol-less, "Well of Souls"-less world to spread the word.
Another is, obviously, the "single point of failure" vulnerability represented by having only the single Architect. Without him, expansion is impossible. I suppose, if he makes it 8 levels beyond the minimum necessary to bring new worlds into Harmonious Convergence, he could always self-replicate via Mind Seed.
Then, of course, there's the war crimes. Although he followed the advice of "commit all your atrocities at the beginning of your reign", there's still the potential for the dark shadow of the past to haunt the benign glory of the Harmonious Convergence.
Plus, the end goal of uplifting every living thing, and bringing them into the light, may bring unforseen difficulties.
Also, it's "points of light" - every world has its *own* paradise, its own hive mind + well of souls + "Mythol".
And "space" is completely beyond its reach.
And numerous other flaws.
Still, I'm loving the idea of the benevolent intergalactic empire - and loving describing it in the most villainous terms, with a dark history.
Also loving having the founder parodying "Elminster" as the Chosen of the gods special snowflake. :P
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2021-02-12, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
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2021-02-12, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
The glorious Harmonious Convergence Field does not extend into space (or, at least, not *far* into space). The cold, dark, unforgiving void is forever beyond the reach of any from the Harmonious Convergence besides missionaries.
And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence.
(Yes, Simulacra and Trompe L'oeil of the gods are a possibility)
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If Elminster came to the home world of the Harmonious Convergence, outside the protections of his deities? Then he's just a guy - and one with notoriously horrifically bad tactics, at that. He would *literally* die to a blade of grass if he stepped out of line.
OTOH, should the Architect make trouble on Toril, Elminster would bend him over his knee and give him a sound smacking. (With his Wisdom penalty, he's not the sharpest bulb in the shed)
If they met in neutral territory, and the Architect listened to his 5-year-old advisor? Elminster is simultaneously so suboptimal (outside his "special snowflake" status) and so daft, my money would be on the Architect.
If he didn't listen to his 5-year-old advisor, it could go either way.
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2021-02-12, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
"And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence."
I'm going to need a better definition for this-- what exactly is you "morality" system for the Harmonious Convergence?
Also, out of curiosity, if there was an invading force coming to a Harmonious Convergence planet (say the Federation from Star Trek has decided you are a threat on the level of the Borg) how would the HC fight back? What exactly does the HC Field do to help them to fight?All Classes Matter
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2021-02-12, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
That's… complicated.
Imagine Delenn screaming, "Life is my goal!"
Imagine Yoda concerned that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.
Imagine a transhumanist, post-scarcity society.
Imagine the Borg… but happy, and with *almost* individual thoughts.
Let's start with the transhumanist Borg, actually.
Imagine that, not unlike the Borg, you're dealing with a hive mind. But each individual is aware of the hive mind, *plus* many other minds - including their own. But, as transhumanists, they have been the tree, the worm, and the man biting into the apple. They may, like someone immersed in a good story, forget which of those actors they are at this moment.
Everything is aware of everything, and everything moves by design, in perfect harmony, like the great gears of Mechanus. Nobody really *seems* different (aside from being really happy), but… nobody accidentally steps on a bug, deer/pets don't jump out in front of cars, etc. Everything is just a little too perfect. Because *absolutely everything* is working together to make it so. Birds start spontaneously singing on romantic dates. Disney princesses are a thing. Whatever.
And everything alive can transform into any other lifeform at will. Complete Transhumanity.
Everything *looks* like a perfectly normal world, because that's the stories people's minds are used to, that's what they're enjoying experiencing.
And everyone is working together to make everything perfect, and everyone is just so danged happy, plugged in to (in effect) hundreds of channels of TV all at once.
It's circuses and peanuts, on steroids.
It's a respect for all life, shared by all.
It's bliss on tap.
It's being one with the universe (or, at least, one with the world).
But that oneness ends in the void.
Out there, you are alone. Individual. Unplugged. You may still respect life, but you don't *know* what it wants, and it doesn't *know* what you want. You can't help each other - at least not without highly suboptimal methods, like communication and guessing. Your actions and even individual footsteps are no longer ordered by The Architect, and you could accidentally step on a bug or run over an animal, or otherwise cause unintentional harm, or be unintentionally harmed. You don't catch a cold when it's dramatically appropriate, you do so in accordance with the random whims of physics. Etc.
You would never willingly force such an existence upon another.
You want everyone to be whatever they want to be, have whatever they need, experience all that life has to offer. Yes, including eating meat, because animals are tasty. And they know and understand this. Birds still eat bugs, lions still eat lambs, but everything is recycled in the Well of Souls. Even if you are currently dead (or don't come back at all), you are still part of the Collective, still experiencing the lives of others. (EDIT: until you choose to pass on)
A few brave souls are sufficient martyrs that they are willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, unplugged from the hive mind, and become missionaries, spreading the word of the Harmonious Convergence to poor, static, disconnected worlds. They are willing to share the joy of Unity and Fulfillment with anyone who asks (mechanically, I expect that they need a large enough following that foreign gods have an established foothold, at which point a Simulacrum of one of said deities will arrive to act as the focal point for the creation of a new Harmonious Convergence Field). No one outside those who want to join is affected - but those who do join are blessed.
(EDIT: this response was written assuming that they were attacking the Source world. Newer converts would be more violent, more creative… and have less backup)
Everyone is aware of everything. And anywhere they want to be. And whatever they want to be. Hive mind, at will Teleportation, at will PaO.
Death is a revolving door (if forms have been invented that have True Resurrection as a SLA; otherwise, it's much slower, waiting on Blood Money or Tainted Sorcerer shenanigans for free True Resurrection).
*If* the federation could get there (note that I said that the planet is cut off, but those federation types could doubtless eventually figure out a way to traverse 7 dimensions to get there), they could simply bombard the planet with impunity… at least until a) we developed new forms with interplanetary range on perception and attacks, or b) the gods just appeared on the ships, and started wrecking havoc.
Or The Architect might try Diplomacy. 200,000,000 Aid Another rolls should help a bit, right?
EDIT: if the Harmonious Convergence is allowed to evolve long enough before disturbed, it *wouldn't* fight back. Eventually, their respect for life would prohibit them from harming their attackers. They would be like… the Douwd, trying to convince the Husnock to go away.
"And then came the Federation, a species of hideous intelligence, who knew only aggression and destruction. They rained fire and death down upon the world for 40 days and 40 nights, until The Architect wrote the story of the fall of the Harmonious Convergence. We all acted out our parts, and Aided The Architect in his great Bluff. And so the evil Federation left, to seek out new life and new civilizations to harass. And joy returned to the Harmonious Convergence once more."
-- Grant Shademor, uplifted oak, The Book of Harmony, aka the History Channel, volume XXXI.Last edited by Quertus; 2021-02-13 at 10:28 AM.
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2021-02-14, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Hoping it's not too late, still writing up and working on builds for this.
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2021-02-14, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
bob the commoner does not needs to see the town: they just need to get fresh new well crafted tools and clothes and other varied hard to get stuff like salt from joe that buys the scarce non magically created food which sells at a high cost due to the curiosity of the food not having been made in a magical way.
Joe did give a better deal to bob than any other merchant could have because joe can use the scarcity of the non magical food to sell it at a high cost in the town so bob is happy(joe is too) and he might know the food is sent to a magical place but they do not need to see it.
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2021-02-14, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-15, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
It's written up in several, but this is not that.
Conceptually, a "Well of Souls" is a source for souls for newborns.
The "Well of Souls" Dwoemer a) collects souls, shepherding them from the jaws of the afterlife until they choose to pass on; b) ensures their continued feed to the Hive Mind; c) draws from these collected souls to grant souls to temporary creations.
It means that, while you were dead, you didn't miss out on the latest episodes of Star Trek, and PaO pebble to wyvern, the wyvern is part of the Collective. (Thus, younger Collectives don't have the stockpile of souls to draw upon, and their PaO creations are… not inherently part of the Collective.
Also, I imagine many souls (ants, for example) are simply recycled. But that's just my own personal take on how things might turn out - you'd have to ask the Harmonious Convergence what their souls *actually* want.
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2021-02-15, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Party: Fully PO optimized Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Erudite, and Bard (with full Sublime Chord casting). [Alternately, Shadowcraft Mage with beyond-100%-real illusions.]
I play things pretty LG, so each party member will be as close to that as possible for theme and optimization. (E.g. I imagine the Druid is NG and the Bard is CG.)
We assume these characters have found a means to be immune to the ordinary ravages of time; either they are properly immortal, or simply do not age. For example, the Druid is a Planar Shepherd, probably tied to Syrania.
Very importantly: this may be an "empire" in the 4x strategy game sense, but it is NOT going to be an "empire" in the actual real-world sense of the term, neither in organization nor in authority. It is not a realm which extracts resources from the provinces to enrich the core. It is, properly, an interstellar/interplanar nation, one built on the goal of making ALL parts as equally supported and infrastructurally sound as the "core" of an empire would be.
From there, it's a simple matter of three things: Solve Problems, Create Prosperity, and Build Lasting Impact.
Solving problems is pretty simple--it's how this group got to 20th level in the first place. It's how they earned their places on representative councils or as leaders of organizations. While not perfect, they dedicate themselves to ideals of integrity, responsibility, and cooperation. They go out and find places where there is preventable suffering, and not only address the current problems, but build up the locals to ensure that they can address most of their own problems going forward. This kind of thing has a tendency to earn one a positive reputation, so it is not simply Hero Syndrome nor XP farm: this is also outreach, diplomacy by action. By building a reputation of solving problems and genuinely working for the betterment of societies, this party can connect disparate peoples and provide lines of communication that might not otherwise exist. This provides the foundation for unification.
Creating Prosperity is a matter of meeting the needs of large populations without need for labor or hardship. The Druid and Wizard will be the primary force on this front, but all of them provide benefits of one form or another. Constructing and filling demiplanes with endless supplies of food and tireless, eternal laborers (e.g. permanent unseen servants or the like), making reusable traps or objects that produce potable water (e.g. decanter of endless water), mass-producing items that provide continuous endure elements effects, and shaping the world to provide housing for all who desire it--that's the foundation of a partial post-scarcity society. ("Partial" in the sense of some materials are still scarce, but fundamental survival needs are all met.) Addressing disease is of course the next hurdle, but the Cleric and maybe Bard have that covered. Crafting costs are paid through either the rewards gathered from Solving Problems, or through resource-gathering missions to planar locations (like the Plane of Earth).
With fundamental needs met and basic resources either nigh-infinite or available to acquire without conflict, the final challenge of sapient life comes into view: making this worth living. That's where Building Lasting Impact matters. Creating the institutions and social resources (jobs, teachers, opportunities, competitions, etc.) so that anyone who wishes to do a (prosocial) thing is supported in doing so. With demiplanes and their inherently can't-be-depleted ecologies, hunting and botanical experimentation can be done to whatever degree desired without damaging the foundation of this society. With illusions capable of achieving near total reality, any fantastical scenario imaginable can be manufactured--creating demand for illusionists capable of such feats. Lasting impact also involves building the mores, values, institutions, and laws/rules that can stand the test of time: writings, teaching generations of scientists/philosophers/politicians/lawyers etc., creating incentive structures, preparing for wrinkles as much as humanly possible, etc. In comparison to the first two, this is the long, slow, "tedious" part, but genuine dedication to getting it done and making it work is required if you have the ambition to make a pan-galactic civilization that can stand the test of time and survive even if *you* drop out of the picture for some reason.
I imagine the progress would be very slow at first, but accelerate with time as they can re-apply lessons and concepts from prior "uplifted" worlds. At a century, they might only have a handful of worlds fully developed. After a millennium, I would expect a sizable star nation, but probably nowhere near the whole galaxy. These folks are doing it personally each time, because it's worth their while to do it right and take the time to get it done. That does mean they're "letting" worlds go "unfixed" for a longer time, but they have the long game in mind. They need to make sure each world actually is addressed in, of, and for itself, not as a means to an end but as an end itself.
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2021-02-16, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Are there any limits other than the 3.p rules to use? Anything within the rules yeah?
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2021-02-16, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Last edited by Destro2119; 2021-02-16 at 11:19 AM.
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2021-02-16, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Last edited by Destro2119; 2021-02-16 at 11:22 AM.
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2021-02-16, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Painter wizard? Singularity sorcerer? Never heard of either of them.
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2021-02-16, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-16, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Last edited by Quertus; 2021-02-16 at 01:20 PM.
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2021-02-16, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-16, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-19, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Pretty much. It apparently abuses Wishes, NI wealth shenanigans, and town availability rules… plus custom demiplanes (utilizing fast time shenanigans and timeless traits, of course)… to get NI paint… to make NI paintings able to make more paintings.
Pretty much the standard "every bit of silly we can find", zero creativity… tied into, in this case, paint-based Minionmancy.
And uses the obscure rule (that apparently nobody knew last time I brought up Trompe L'oeil *grumble, grumble*) that, in PF, created constructs obey your orders.
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2021-02-21, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
They would be seen as a valuable ally. The Federation has pretty clear ambition to become the overall galactic state (and beyond, if technology permits), just as my budding nation does. Overall strategy between the two would depend on their relative size at first contact. If my "empire" met the Federation when the latter covers half the Alpha and Beta quadrants, then it would seek to become a member state and essentially piggy-back on the Federation's successful absorption of so many planets and cultures. Given the value to be obtained by adding magic to the Federation's already extreme technological capacity, this would clearly be beneficial for both parties. If, on the other hand, my...let's call it Republic of Worlds, were the significantly larger of the two, it would seek to peacefully integrate the Federation in like manner--from an outside perspective, the difference between the two processes would be minimal, as it would mostly be a matter of whose laws form the foundation of the resulting state, but ultimately the two would be on a clear trajectory toward unification. If the two states are of about equal size and importance....probably would favor becoming a member of the Federation (or, rather, having the member states of the Republic of Worlds dissolve the Republic and each individually join the Federation).
Also, exactly how optimized is the party? I want to make sure you are not overstepping the "cheese boundary" I have set.
In build terms, Pun-pun is automatically forbidden under a PO approach, but Planar Shepherd is not automatically forbidden. Certain crap you can pull might be, but the PrC itself is legal.
Absolutely not. Nigh-infinite looping, frex, would not be a thing. Leadership-type effects, on the other hand, are kind of implied by the premise, since this party is implicitly leading the creation of an organization at the level of planets.
Yep, just so. There's still a ridiculous amount you can do even within those rules.
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2021-02-21, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-21, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Uh...who's space fascist here?
The Federation is a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. The Republic I have proposed would likewise be a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. In both cases, the vast bulk of the citizenry live as they choose. Freedom of expression, assembly, individuality, and belief are all demonstrated, and the right to due process, privacy, and bodily autonomy are likewise shown. There is no demonization of external forces, nor a leashing of private enterprise to the state's control. None of the hallmarks of "fascism" are present in either nation, so I'm deeply confused as to why you would use that term in this context.
(Note that I reject the ways things have developed in Picard, as that's just made Star Trek yet another grimdark angst fest for no reason. Likewise, anything relating to the movie that made gorram Khan Noonien Singh an important security advisor for the Federation! The new generation of writers has no idea how to write good Star Trek work and it truly saddens me to see the state it's in.)
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2021-02-21, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
Oh man. I tried to share Star Trek with the Next Generation. After the show, I tried to gauge their reaction:
Me: "who's your favorite character?"
Young girl: "none of them."
Me: "…what?"
Young girl: "none of them."
She went on to explain how this one was incompetent, that one was a liar, etc, giving the most thought-out description of the characters I'd heard.
Then she summed up with, "so, none of them.".
Although the experience left me very proud of her, it left me equally sad for what had become of Star Trek.
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2021-02-22, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
There are a bunch of examples, like Kirk getting yeeted out of the ship for daring to defy the council with no trial. Plus, every episode is a ship's log by a STARFLEET captain and could be biased. Also the Prime Directive was stated by an actor in Star Trek to be "fascist nonsense."
IN any case, what if they attacked for whatever reason?All Classes Matter
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2021-02-23, 05:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
He's a military officer, subject to the exigencies of political stuff. You can be stripped of rank without trial in plenty of real-world non-fascist nations, especially when you openly defy orders from your commander-in-chief and break actual civil laws. That he got away without a trial is, if anything, a kindness--he COULD have been tried and sentenced under Federation law, but they let him off relatively gently in light of his storied career.
And, yes, I'm well aware that the military-scientific bias is present, but things like Deep Space Nine cover that quite well and show more than a little of what it's like to be a Federation civilian. Indeed, not always ones that get along with the Federation government.
"Fascism" should not be thrown around casually as if it were simply a synonym for totalitarianism or abuse of human rights. It means something specific.
IN any case, what if they attacked for whatever reason?
The point of interacting with other cultures is to demonstrate the ability to succeed more, to do better, to live more fully, through cooperation rather than conquest. If the Federation were truly an oppressive regime, then breaking that regime and enabling its people to live as their overlords claim they do would be a major victory. If it is not an oppressive regime, then cooperation and coordination can permit greater success than individual efforts could.
"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." Sun Tzu, The Art of War. How better to break resistance than to befriend, and thus make resistance unnecessary--to induce your enemy to willingly cease resisting?
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2021-02-23, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
It doesnt help you get there but it DOES give you somewhere to go, the Create Treasure Map spell when used on an extraterrestrial corpse could be interesting/amusing.
Additionally PF natively has both a Terraformer Robot and Terraform spell.
Though, to me, neither seems quite up to the task their name implies they're capable of.
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2021-02-23, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires
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