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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    So in PF the reaches of space are populated in no small part by the creatures of the Dominion of the Black and/or the Cthulhu mythos. Including literal Cthulhu.

    Could one scry-and-die these guys as a means of getting out there? *vaguely waves hand at the stars*

    What exactly is needed to scry on a monstrosity from the depths of space anyway?
    I mean, if you've seen the sort of high op nonsense Quertus just laid down. Cthulhu is your b*tch, man.

    In any case, we assume more Star Trek type space anyways.
    All Classes Matter

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    Is there some less ominous alternative to literal "necrotic tumors" in your whole setup?
    There are many alternatives, from Mindrape to Epic Diplomacy. I chose the Necrotic tumors for a visceral "the gods have chosen to excise the tumor of failure from their world".

    Also, because that's the tech a particular existing character had on hand.

    Of note: they are completely unused after the initial takeover - subsequent generations (and other worlds) don't need them.

    And, while we care whether other worlds join, in the same way a good person cares whether someone is starving to death, we're the most laid back, non-aggressive, non-pushy invasion force ever. We're already in paradise - we are just offering you the opportunity to join us. We don't gain anything from it but a clear conscience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    Also, what is "flying spaghetti monster" and
    A meme people reference. Just a placeholder. Not important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    "tainted sorcerer"?
    Ah. An OP prestige class. Sacrifice Wisdom for power. Extreme power. For simplicity, assume save DC is "you fail", and spell points are "plenty".

    In reality, in this scenario, it's actually a vulnerability.

    But, the important part is, the character is (supposed to feel like) the embodiment of »alignment«. Cut them open, and they bleed divine light and gears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    BTW, who are the other four guys of your "core team"?
    Doesn't matter. Probably someone to cast "Teleport" for me, several people with True Resurrection, and the mandator 5-year-old advisor I kidnapped (or used someone's Leadership pool for, or…).

    After the setup, my death completely stops the expansion (until the gods chose another Chosen One), but is completely irrelevant to the running of the existing Harmonious Paradises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    EDIT: Also, I would like you to clarify on a few things-- ho exactly do you travel through space to other planets?
    Already answered:

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    How would I go other places? Knowledge checks to know of Sigil / Union / the infinite staircase / astral portals / shadow travel / Spelljamming / Teleport Through Time / Plane Shift / Fast Time Planes / whatever else.

    Bolded the most relevant entries.

    But "I" don't (outside the setup phase) - missionaries do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    What do your "missionaries" look like?
    Folk. Whatever they want to look like, really, but mostly just folk.

    Think "gene stealer cult".

    I may have to "brand" "official" "missionaries".

    Brand: create uniforms for

    Official: as if they aren't all working for the Greater Good.

    Missionaries: the official ones would bring more relevant stuff with them; the "unofficial" ones would just… gather information, tell tales, form "cults".

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    What does the "average citizen" look like/what can he do?
    Whatever he wants. On both counts.

    Most just look like folk. And ants. And ducks. And bacteria. And blades of grass. And every other living creature on a perfectly normal world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    How exactly do you "add disruptive invaders to your biomass?"
    Their corpses add to the available matter. Circle of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    I think the point of the rules is that you have to use spell slots for them, so theoretically there is less chance of ritual nonsense to bring down a DC. What now?
    I can only repeat what I said already.

    There are no rules for what level spell "planet-wide hive mind" or "grant power 'teleport at will' to citizens" are.

    Or what level they become when you include, "requires 1,000 9th level spells, 2,000 8th level spells, 4,000 7th level spells…" etc to power the spell.

    Or even "requires 200,000,000 followers calling out the name of the Doctor the names of the gods during the casting".

    So, what can I do with those "rules"? I can point out that they consist of "mother may I" and a few pages of not terribly useful guidelines and examples… throw them in the trash, and point to the actual, concrete rules of 3e epic spells.

    What can *you* do with those rules (other than ask "mother may I?")?

    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    So in PF the reaches of space are populated in no small part by the creatures of the Dominion of the Black and/or the Cthulhu mythos. Including literal Cthulhu.

    Could one scry-and-die these guys as a means of getting out there? *vaguely waves hand at the stars*

    What exactly is needed to scry on a monstrosity from the depths of space anyway?
    More sanity points than you have to spare

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    I mean, if you've seen the sort of high op nonsense Quertus just laid down. Cthulhu is your b*tch, man.

    In any case, we assume more Star Trek type space anyways.
    Lol. I mean, it's hard to have "Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires" without "high op nonsense" - especially if they're to be created within a single lifespan.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    So, the flaws of my galactic empire are numerous.

    The biggest is its benevolence. Because it doesn't exist where it's not wanted, missionaries have to leave Paradise in order to spread the Word. Clearly, then, missionaries are all Exalted Good, "put Paladins to shame" individuals who care very deeply about the suffering of others, to be willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, separated from the Collective, and sent out alone into the cold, unforgiving, Mythol-less, "Well of Souls"-less world to spread the word.

    Another is, obviously, the "single point of failure" vulnerability represented by having only the single Architect. Without him, expansion is impossible. I suppose, if he makes it 8 levels beyond the minimum necessary to bring new worlds into Harmonious Convergence, he could always self-replicate via Mind Seed.

    Then, of course, there's the war crimes. Although he followed the advice of "commit all your atrocities at the beginning of your reign", there's still the potential for the dark shadow of the past to haunt the benign glory of the Harmonious Convergence.

    Plus, the end goal of uplifting every living thing, and bringing them into the light, may bring unforseen difficulties.

    Also, it's "points of light" - every world has its *own* paradise, its own hive mind + well of souls + "Mythol".

    And "space" is completely beyond its reach.

    And numerous other flaws.

    Still, I'm loving the idea of the benevolent intergalactic empire - and loving describing it in the most villainous terms, with a dark history.

    Also loving having the founder parodying "Elminster" as the Chosen of the gods special snowflake. :P

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    So, the flaws of my galactic empire are numerous.

    The biggest is its benevolence. Because it doesn't exist where it's not wanted, missionaries have to leave Paradise in order to spread the Word. Clearly, then, missionaries are all Exalted Good, "put Paladins to shame" individuals who care very deeply about the suffering of others, to be willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, separated from the Collective, and sent out alone into the cold, unforgiving, Mythol-less, "Well of Souls"-less world to spread the word.

    Another is, obviously, the "single point of failure" vulnerability represented by having only the single Architect. Without him, expansion is impossible. I suppose, if he makes it 8 levels beyond the minimum necessary to bring new worlds into Harmonious Convergence, he could always self-replicate via Mind Seed.

    Then, of course, there's the war crimes. Although he followed the advice of "commit all your atrocities at the beginning of your reign", there's still the potential for the dark shadow of the past to haunt the benign glory of the Harmonious Convergence.

    Plus, the end goal of uplifting every living thing, and bringing them into the light, may bring unforseen difficulties.

    Also, it's "points of light" - every world has its *own* paradise, its own hive mind + well of souls + "Mythol".

    And "space" is completely beyond its reach.

    And numerous other flaws.

    Still, I'm loving the idea of the benevolent intergalactic empire - and loving describing it in the most villainous terms, with a dark history.

    Also loving having the founder parodying "Elminster" as the Chosen of the gods special snowflake. :P
    What do you mean "space is completely beyond its reach?"

    Couldn't he make simulacrums, or trompe loils, or just have one of his cohorts/party members who are on the same level as him do it or just figure out some other way?

    Could he beat Elminster in a fight ?
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  6. - Top - End - #36
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    What do you mean "space is completely beyond its reach?"

    Couldn't he make simulacrums, or trompe loils, or just have one of his cohorts/party members who are on the same level as him do it or just figure out some other way?

    Could he beat Elminster in a fight ?
    The glorious Harmonious Convergence Field does not extend into space (or, at least, not *far* into space). The cold, dark, unforgiving void is forever beyond the reach of any from the Harmonious Convergence besides missionaries.

    And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence.

    (Yes, Simulacra and Trompe L'oeil of the gods are a possibility)

    -----

    If Elminster came to the home world of the Harmonious Convergence, outside the protections of his deities? Then he's just a guy - and one with notoriously horrifically bad tactics, at that. He would *literally* die to a blade of grass if he stepped out of line.

    OTOH, should the Architect make trouble on Toril, Elminster would bend him over his knee and give him a sound smacking. (With his Wisdom penalty, he's not the sharpest bulb in the shed)

    If they met in neutral territory, and the Architect listened to his 5-year-old advisor? Elminster is simultaneously so suboptimal (outside his "special snowflake" status) and so daft, my money would be on the Architect.

    If he didn't listen to his 5-year-old advisor, it could go either way.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    The glorious Harmonious Convergence Field does not extend into space (or, at least, not *far* into space). The cold, dark, unforgiving void is forever beyond the reach of any from the Harmonious Convergence besides missionaries.

    And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence.

    (Yes, Simulacra and Trompe L'oeil of the gods are a possibility)

    -----

    If Elminster came to the home world of the Harmonious Convergence, outside the protections of his deities? Then he's just a guy - and one with notoriously horrifically bad tactics, at that. He would *literally* die to a blade of grass if he stepped out of line.

    OTOH, should the Architect make trouble on Toril, Elminster would bend him over his knee and give him a sound smacking. (With his Wisdom penalty, he's not the sharpest bulb in the shed)

    If they met in neutral territory, and the Architect listened to his 5-year-old advisor? Elminster is simultaneously so suboptimal (outside his "special snowflake" status) and so daft, my money would be on the Architect.

    If he didn't listen to his 5-year-old advisor, it could go either way.
    "And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence."

    I'm going to need a better definition for this-- what exactly is you "morality" system for the Harmonious Convergence?

    Also, out of curiosity, if there was an invading force coming to a Harmonious Convergence planet (say the Federation from Star Trek has decided you are a threat on the level of the Borg) how would the HC fight back? What exactly does the HC Field do to help them to fight?
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  8. - Top - End - #38
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    "And, sure, the Harmonious Convergence *could* do a great many things - but it *wouldn't*. Only the gods - already poly-present beings - are big enough to exist outside the Harmonious Convergence without unforgivable suffering, so the idea of creating a sentient being for the express purpose of sending it into the void is anathema to the benevolent nature of the Harmonious Convergence."

    I'm going to need a better definition for this-- what exactly is you "morality" system for the Harmonious Convergence?
    That's… complicated.

    Imagine Delenn screaming, "Life is my goal!"

    Imagine Yoda concerned that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.

    Imagine a transhumanist, post-scarcity society.

    Imagine the Borg… but happy, and with *almost* individual thoughts.

    Let's start with the transhumanist Borg, actually.

    Imagine that, not unlike the Borg, you're dealing with a hive mind. But each individual is aware of the hive mind, *plus* many other minds - including their own. But, as transhumanists, they have been the tree, the worm, and the man biting into the apple. They may, like someone immersed in a good story, forget which of those actors they are at this moment.

    Everything is aware of everything, and everything moves by design, in perfect harmony, like the great gears of Mechanus. Nobody really *seems* different (aside from being really happy), but… nobody accidentally steps on a bug, deer/pets don't jump out in front of cars, etc. Everything is just a little too perfect. Because *absolutely everything* is working together to make it so. Birds start spontaneously singing on romantic dates. Disney princesses are a thing. Whatever.

    And everything alive can transform into any other lifeform at will. Complete Transhumanity.

    Everything *looks* like a perfectly normal world, because that's the stories people's minds are used to, that's what they're enjoying experiencing.

    And everyone is working together to make everything perfect, and everyone is just so danged happy, plugged in to (in effect) hundreds of channels of TV all at once.

    It's circuses and peanuts, on steroids.

    It's a respect for all life, shared by all.

    It's bliss on tap.

    It's being one with the universe (or, at least, one with the world).

    But that oneness ends in the void.

    Out there, you are alone. Individual. Unplugged. You may still respect life, but you don't *know* what it wants, and it doesn't *know* what you want. You can't help each other - at least not without highly suboptimal methods, like communication and guessing. Your actions and even individual footsteps are no longer ordered by The Architect, and you could accidentally step on a bug or run over an animal, or otherwise cause unintentional harm, or be unintentionally harmed. You don't catch a cold when it's dramatically appropriate, you do so in accordance with the random whims of physics. Etc.

    You would never willingly force such an existence upon another.

    You want everyone to be whatever they want to be, have whatever they need, experience all that life has to offer. Yes, including eating meat, because animals are tasty. And they know and understand this. Birds still eat bugs, lions still eat lambs, but everything is recycled in the Well of Souls. Even if you are currently dead (or don't come back at all), you are still part of the Collective, still experiencing the lives of others. (EDIT: until you choose to pass on)

    A few brave souls are sufficient martyrs that they are willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, unplugged from the hive mind, and become missionaries, spreading the word of the Harmonious Convergence to poor, static, disconnected worlds. They are willing to share the joy of Unity and Fulfillment with anyone who asks (mechanically, I expect that they need a large enough following that foreign gods have an established foothold, at which point a Simulacrum of one of said deities will arrive to act as the focal point for the creation of a new Harmonious Convergence Field). No one outside those who want to join is affected - but those who do join are blessed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    Also, out of curiosity, if there was an invading force coming to a Harmonious Convergence planet (say the Federation from Star Trek has decided you are a threat on the level of the Borg) how would the HC fight back? What exactly does the HC Field do to help them to fight?
    (EDIT: this response was written assuming that they were attacking the Source world. Newer converts would be more violent, more creative… and have less backup)

    Everyone is aware of everything. And anywhere they want to be. And whatever they want to be. Hive mind, at will Teleportation, at will PaO.

    Death is a revolving door (if forms have been invented that have True Resurrection as a SLA; otherwise, it's much slower, waiting on Blood Money or Tainted Sorcerer shenanigans for free True Resurrection).

    *If* the federation could get there (note that I said that the planet is cut off, but those federation types could doubtless eventually figure out a way to traverse 7 dimensions to get there), they could simply bombard the planet with impunity… at least until a) we developed new forms with interplanetary range on perception and attacks, or b) the gods just appeared on the ships, and started wrecking havoc.

    Or The Architect might try Diplomacy. 200,000,000 Aid Another rolls should help a bit, right?

    EDIT: if the Harmonious Convergence is allowed to evolve long enough before disturbed, it *wouldn't* fight back. Eventually, their respect for life would prohibit them from harming their attackers. They would be like… the Douwd, trying to convince the Husnock to go away.

    "And then came the Federation, a species of hideous intelligence, who knew only aggression and destruction. They rained fire and death down upon the world for 40 days and 40 nights, until The Architect wrote the story of the fall of the Harmonious Convergence. We all acted out our parts, and Aided The Architect in his great Bluff. And so the evil Federation left, to seek out new life and new civilizations to harass. And joy returned to the Harmonious Convergence once more."

    -- Grant Shademor, uplifted oak, The Book of Harmony, aka the History Channel, volume XXXI.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2021-02-13 at 10:28 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Hoping it's not too late, still writing up and working on builds for this.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    Depends on your citizens. An empire is not just what the people at the top can do (the pcs), which is anuthing and everything.

    Random musings on npcs (long)
    Spoiler
    Show


    Bob the farmer just wants some land, low taxes, feed his family, put a bit aside for lean months, and protection from the myriad things thay can hurt him and his. He does not mind magic but probably does not trust it, definately does not rely on it. He will not farm in a demiplane thats only accessible by magic means. Thats MOST of a settings population.

    Joe the merchant has a knack for befriending people. He travels constantly and has friends everywhere. He also makes a modest profit which he uses prudently, but he is not unknown to excess. He thinks magic is neat and if it helps him and eases his burdens, he is all for it. He probably has some magical protection containers for sensative goods, maybe just simple hold portal with a key to bypass. He would love cheap or free long distance travel.

    Galf the blacksmith makes fine weapons and armor. For 100 years he has ran his forge and he will run it 100 mire Moradin willing. He does a brisk trade in adventuring gear, and has partnerships with a few magic users to consign, enchant, and improve magical gear. He handles the physical and buisness tasks, but he is not leaving his forge anytime soon. He is very comfortable with magic and would access to a wider range of markets.

    George the guard is a solid sort. He trained with the army a bit and considered adventuring, but his duty is to protect those he cares about. He appreciates a fine magic spear but that is most of his contact with magic. He know his job is to deal with some local thugs, an occasional goblin that sneaks in and a few wild animals. He is smart enough to know when he is outclassed, and he does not relish the idea of a lone fiend or an angel walking the streets, let alone many.

    Cheri is the towns healer. She is the go to for her peoples magical needs, can cure devils chills or most poxes, throw a bit of offensive magic in dire straights, but mostly focuses on making useful potions for the well to do and easing the burdens as she can for the rest. She would love to have wider access to reagents but knows with more magic comes many more issues which many are not equipped to deal with. She is cautiously optimiatic.

    Lady Sera of the House Domire is the preeminent socialite of her city. She know who is who, what the latest and greatest fashions are, and always has the jucieat gossip and wonderful stories. She lives a life of excess and has no time for mundane foolishness. She disdains drudgery and always has someone do the menial work for her. She adores travelling to exotic locales and has a modest collection of curios, some of which are magical. The opportunity to one up her peers with an even better tale or trinket never escapes her.


    Moat commeners cannot or will not easily live in such a place willingly. Said commeners are also the source of most food production, so they become your big hurdles. If you want to make it successful without going tippyverse, you need to convince them first. You can invalidate them with spell traps or what have you, but that leads to revolt, so that needs to be dealt with.

    Your experts would likely love opportunities to expand their spheres of influence, so they would welcome the change provided it does not interfere with production.

    Your warriors are also invalidated, because they cannot hope to deal with threats beyond lowest CRs. They would also need something to keep them placated. They are armed and in your cities already so they are a potential issue. Or you need to upgrade them drastically to have a reasonable chance of still.being good. Leadership and a bunch of warblades?

    Adepts need to maintain their niche though as you grow larger pc classes would replace them. However, this are magic users who are in your walls. Maybe a council of elders over various wards? These are magic users en masse in your walls can do more successful sabotage and issurection than anyone else.

    Your aristocrats see new areas to exploit, and they would jump on it quickly provided they are assured their power base and lifestyle would not be compromised.

    So you solve food and protection first, then you start mercantile. Your nobles and merchants/craftsmen will profit considerably. But you need to be sure tou are super careful in integration with other stronger/better/different races. SLA races like mind flayers or the like upset your adepts so you need to be very careful there.

    After solving food, protection, trade, snd the social issues, next you need education, possibly with mandated military time. Transition everyone to PC classes.

    Bob the farmers son, Bob Jr. the druid is substantially better for everyone. He will help plants grow better, ensure there are fewer if any bad harvests, increase production, and is less dependent on protection from the guards. Same with everyone else. You need to do it for everyone at no cost, so you do not have a power disparity that rips your nation apart.

    When your merchants are bards or beguilers, your craftsmen wizards and clerics, your guards crusaders, warblades and swordsages, your nobles marshalls, you adepts clerics, druids and wizards, you can get serious with expansion.

    You now have a populace than can fare and compete both militaristically and mercantily with stronger races. You outclass normal humanoids and will subsume or replace all their empires, and can stand with most exceptional creatures. From there you rinse and repeat, 2 generations per world should do it.
    bob the commoner does not needs to see the town: they just need to get fresh new well crafted tools and clothes and other varied hard to get stuff like salt from joe that buys the scarce non magically created food which sells at a high cost due to the curiosity of the food not having been made in a magical way.
    Joe did give a better deal to bob than any other merchant could have because joe can use the scarcity of the non magical food to sell it at a high cost in the town so bob is happy(joe is too) and he might know the food is sent to a magical place but they do not need to see it.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    That's… complicated.

    Imagine Delenn screaming, "Life is my goal!"

    Imagine Yoda concerned that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.

    Imagine a transhumanist, post-scarcity society.

    Imagine the Borg… but happy, and with *almost* individual thoughts.

    Let's start with the transhumanist Borg, actually.

    Imagine that, not unlike the Borg, you're dealing with a hive mind. But each individual is aware of the hive mind, *plus* many other minds - including their own. But, as transhumanists, they have been the tree, the worm, and the man biting into the apple. They may, like someone immersed in a good story, forget which of those actors they are at this moment.

    Everything is aware of everything, and everything moves by design, in perfect harmony, like the great gears of Mechanus. Nobody really *seems* different (aside from being really happy), but… nobody accidentally steps on a bug, deer/pets don't jump out in front of cars, etc. Everything is just a little too perfect. Because *absolutely everything* is working together to make it so. Birds start spontaneously singing on romantic dates. Disney princesses are a thing. Whatever.

    And everything alive can transform into any other lifeform at will. Complete Transhumanity.

    Everything *looks* like a perfectly normal world, because that's the stories people's minds are used to, that's what they're enjoying experiencing.

    And everyone is working together to make everything perfect, and everyone is just so danged happy, plugged in to (in effect) hundreds of channels of TV all at once.

    It's circuses and peanuts, on steroids.

    It's a respect for all life, shared by all.

    It's bliss on tap.

    It's being one with the universe (or, at least, one with the world).

    But that oneness ends in the void.

    Out there, you are alone. Individual. Unplugged. You may still respect life, but you don't *know* what it wants, and it doesn't *know* what you want. You can't help each other - at least not without highly suboptimal methods, like communication and guessing. Your actions and even individual footsteps are no longer ordered by The Architect, and you could accidentally step on a bug or run over an animal, or otherwise cause unintentional harm, or be unintentionally harmed. You don't catch a cold when it's dramatically appropriate, you do so in accordance with the random whims of physics. Etc.

    You would never willingly force such an existence upon another.

    You want everyone to be whatever they want to be, have whatever they need, experience all that life has to offer. Yes, including eating meat, because animals are tasty. And they know and understand this. Birds still eat bugs, lions still eat lambs, but everything is recycled in the Well of Souls. Even if you are currently dead (or don't come back at all), you are still part of the Collective, still experiencing the lives of others. (EDIT: until you choose to pass on)

    A few brave souls are sufficient martyrs that they are willing to be Calypso'd into a single form, unplugged from the hive mind, and become missionaries, spreading the word of the Harmonious Convergence to poor, static, disconnected worlds. They are willing to share the joy of Unity and Fulfillment with anyone who asks (mechanically, I expect that they need a large enough following that foreign gods have an established foothold, at which point a Simulacrum of one of said deities will arrive to act as the focal point for the creation of a new Harmonious Convergence Field). No one outside those who want to join is affected - but those who do join are blessed.



    (EDIT: this response was written assuming that they were attacking the Source world. Newer converts would be more violent, more creative… and have less backup)

    Everyone is aware of everything. And anywhere they want to be. And whatever they want to be. Hive mind, at will Teleportation, at will PaO.

    Death is a revolving door (if forms have been invented that have True Resurrection as a SLA; otherwise, it's much slower, waiting on Blood Money or Tainted Sorcerer shenanigans for free True Resurrection).

    *If* the federation could get there (note that I said that the planet is cut off, but those federation types could doubtless eventually figure out a way to traverse 7 dimensions to get there), they could simply bombard the planet with impunity… at least until a) we developed new forms with interplanetary range on perception and attacks, or b) the gods just appeared on the ships, and started wrecking havoc.

    Or The Architect might try Diplomacy. 200,000,000 Aid Another rolls should help a bit, right?

    EDIT: if the Harmonious Convergence is allowed to evolve long enough before disturbed, it *wouldn't* fight back. Eventually, their respect for life would prohibit them from harming their attackers. They would be like… the Douwd, trying to convince the Husnock to go away.

    "And then came the Federation, a species of hideous intelligence, who knew only aggression and destruction. They rained fire and death down upon the world for 40 days and 40 nights, until The Architect wrote the story of the fall of the Harmonious Convergence. We all acted out our parts, and Aided The Architect in his great Bluff. And so the evil Federation left, to seek out new life and new civilizations to harass. And joy returned to the Harmonious Convergence once more."

    -- Grant Shademor, uplifted oak, The Book of Harmony, aka the History Channel, volume XXXI.
    Hey, what IS the Well of Souls anyways? I don't think it is written up in any book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    Hey, what IS the Well of Souls anyways? I don't think it is written up in any book.
    It's written up in several, but this is not that.

    Conceptually, a "Well of Souls" is a source for souls for newborns.

    The "Well of Souls" Dwoemer a) collects souls, shepherding them from the jaws of the afterlife until they choose to pass on; b) ensures their continued feed to the Hive Mind; c) draws from these collected souls to grant souls to temporary creations.

    It means that, while you were dead, you didn't miss out on the latest episodes of Star Trek, and PaO pebble to wyvern, the wyvern is part of the Collective. (Thus, younger Collectives don't have the stockpile of souls to draw upon, and their PaO creations are… not inherently part of the Collective.

    Also, I imagine many souls (ants, for example) are simply recycled. But that's just my own personal take on how things might turn out - you'd have to ask the Harmonious Convergence what their souls *actually* want.

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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Party: Fully PO optimized Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Erudite, and Bard (with full Sublime Chord casting). [Alternately, Shadowcraft Mage with beyond-100%-real illusions.]

    I play things pretty LG, so each party member will be as close to that as possible for theme and optimization. (E.g. I imagine the Druid is NG and the Bard is CG.)

    We assume these characters have found a means to be immune to the ordinary ravages of time; either they are properly immortal, or simply do not age. For example, the Druid is a Planar Shepherd, probably tied to Syrania.

    Very importantly: this may be an "empire" in the 4x strategy game sense, but it is NOT going to be an "empire" in the actual real-world sense of the term, neither in organization nor in authority. It is not a realm which extracts resources from the provinces to enrich the core. It is, properly, an interstellar/interplanar nation, one built on the goal of making ALL parts as equally supported and infrastructurally sound as the "core" of an empire would be.

    From there, it's a simple matter of three things: Solve Problems, Create Prosperity, and Build Lasting Impact.

    Solving problems is pretty simple--it's how this group got to 20th level in the first place. It's how they earned their places on representative councils or as leaders of organizations. While not perfect, they dedicate themselves to ideals of integrity, responsibility, and cooperation. They go out and find places where there is preventable suffering, and not only address the current problems, but build up the locals to ensure that they can address most of their own problems going forward. This kind of thing has a tendency to earn one a positive reputation, so it is not simply Hero Syndrome nor XP farm: this is also outreach, diplomacy by action. By building a reputation of solving problems and genuinely working for the betterment of societies, this party can connect disparate peoples and provide lines of communication that might not otherwise exist. This provides the foundation for unification.

    Creating Prosperity is a matter of meeting the needs of large populations without need for labor or hardship. The Druid and Wizard will be the primary force on this front, but all of them provide benefits of one form or another. Constructing and filling demiplanes with endless supplies of food and tireless, eternal laborers (e.g. permanent unseen servants or the like), making reusable traps or objects that produce potable water (e.g. decanter of endless water), mass-producing items that provide continuous endure elements effects, and shaping the world to provide housing for all who desire it--that's the foundation of a partial post-scarcity society. ("Partial" in the sense of some materials are still scarce, but fundamental survival needs are all met.) Addressing disease is of course the next hurdle, but the Cleric and maybe Bard have that covered. Crafting costs are paid through either the rewards gathered from Solving Problems, or through resource-gathering missions to planar locations (like the Plane of Earth).

    With fundamental needs met and basic resources either nigh-infinite or available to acquire without conflict, the final challenge of sapient life comes into view: making this worth living. That's where Building Lasting Impact matters. Creating the institutions and social resources (jobs, teachers, opportunities, competitions, etc.) so that anyone who wishes to do a (prosocial) thing is supported in doing so. With demiplanes and their inherently can't-be-depleted ecologies, hunting and botanical experimentation can be done to whatever degree desired without damaging the foundation of this society. With illusions capable of achieving near total reality, any fantastical scenario imaginable can be manufactured--creating demand for illusionists capable of such feats. Lasting impact also involves building the mores, values, institutions, and laws/rules that can stand the test of time: writings, teaching generations of scientists/philosophers/politicians/lawyers etc., creating incentive structures, preparing for wrinkles as much as humanly possible, etc. In comparison to the first two, this is the long, slow, "tedious" part, but genuine dedication to getting it done and making it work is required if you have the ambition to make a pan-galactic civilization that can stand the test of time and survive even if *you* drop out of the picture for some reason.

    I imagine the progress would be very slow at first, but accelerate with time as they can re-apply lessons and concepts from prior "uplifted" worlds. At a century, they might only have a handful of worlds fully developed. After a millennium, I would expect a sizable star nation, but probably nowhere near the whole galaxy. These folks are doing it personally each time, because it's worth their while to do it right and take the time to get it done. That does mean they're "letting" worlds go "unfixed" for a longer time, but they have the long game in mind. They need to make sure each world actually is addressed in, of, and for itself, not as a means to an end but as an end itself.

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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Are there any limits other than the 3.p rules to use? Anything within the rules yeah?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empyreal Dragon View Post
    Are there any limits other than the 3.p rules to use? Anything within the rules yeah?
    No not really, other than I disallow uber cheese like singularity sorcerer/painter wizard/candle of invocation wish spam.

    EDIT: Yeah, I know allowing leadership chaining is just as much uber cheese, but it is realistic enough to IRL that I am letting it happen.
    Last edited by Destro2119; 2021-02-16 at 11:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    Party: Fully PO optimized Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Erudite, and Bard (with full Sublime Chord casting). [Alternately, Shadowcraft Mage with beyond-100%-real illusions.]

    I play things pretty LG, so each party member will be as close to that as possible for theme and optimization. (E.g. I imagine the Druid is NG and the Bard is CG.)

    We assume these characters have found a means to be immune to the ordinary ravages of time; either they are properly immortal, or simply do not age. For example, the Druid is a Planar Shepherd, probably tied to Syrania.

    Very importantly: this may be an "empire" in the 4x strategy game sense, but it is NOT going to be an "empire" in the actual real-world sense of the term, neither in organization nor in authority. It is not a realm which extracts resources from the provinces to enrich the core. It is, properly, an interstellar/interplanar nation, one built on the goal of making ALL parts as equally supported and infrastructurally sound as the "core" of an empire would be.

    From there, it's a simple matter of three things: Solve Problems, Create Prosperity, and Build Lasting Impact.

    Solving problems is pretty simple--it's how this group got to 20th level in the first place. It's how they earned their places on representative councils or as leaders of organizations. While not perfect, they dedicate themselves to ideals of integrity, responsibility, and cooperation. They go out and find places where there is preventable suffering, and not only address the current problems, but build up the locals to ensure that they can address most of their own problems going forward. This kind of thing has a tendency to earn one a positive reputation, so it is not simply Hero Syndrome nor XP farm: this is also outreach, diplomacy by action. By building a reputation of solving problems and genuinely working for the betterment of societies, this party can connect disparate peoples and provide lines of communication that might not otherwise exist. This provides the foundation for unification.

    Creating Prosperity is a matter of meeting the needs of large populations without need for labor or hardship. The Druid and Wizard will be the primary force on this front, but all of them provide benefits of one form or another. Constructing and filling demiplanes with endless supplies of food and tireless, eternal laborers (e.g. permanent unseen servants or the like), making reusable traps or objects that produce potable water (e.g. decanter of endless water), mass-producing items that provide continuous endure elements effects, and shaping the world to provide housing for all who desire it--that's the foundation of a partial post-scarcity society. ("Partial" in the sense of some materials are still scarce, but fundamental survival needs are all met.) Addressing disease is of course the next hurdle, but the Cleric and maybe Bard have that covered. Crafting costs are paid through either the rewards gathered from Solving Problems, or through resource-gathering missions to planar locations (like the Plane of Earth).

    With fundamental needs met and basic resources either nigh-infinite or available to acquire without conflict, the final challenge of sapient life comes into view: making this worth living. That's where Building Lasting Impact matters. Creating the institutions and social resources (jobs, teachers, opportunities, competitions, etc.) so that anyone who wishes to do a (prosocial) thing is supported in doing so. With demiplanes and their inherently can't-be-depleted ecologies, hunting and botanical experimentation can be done to whatever degree desired without damaging the foundation of this society. With illusions capable of achieving near total reality, any fantastical scenario imaginable can be manufactured--creating demand for illusionists capable of such feats. Lasting impact also involves building the mores, values, institutions, and laws/rules that can stand the test of time: writings, teaching generations of scientists/philosophers/politicians/lawyers etc., creating incentive structures, preparing for wrinkles as much as humanly possible, etc. In comparison to the first two, this is the long, slow, "tedious" part, but genuine dedication to getting it done and making it work is required if you have the ambition to make a pan-galactic civilization that can stand the test of time and survive even if *you* drop out of the picture for some reason.

    I imagine the progress would be very slow at first, but accelerate with time as they can re-apply lessons and concepts from prior "uplifted" worlds. At a century, they might only have a handful of worlds fully developed. After a millennium, I would expect a sizable star nation, but probably nowhere near the whole galaxy. These folks are doing it personally each time, because it's worth their while to do it right and take the time to get it done. That does mean they're "letting" worlds go "unfixed" for a longer time, but they have the long game in mind. They need to make sure each world actually is addressed in, of, and for itself, not as a means to an end but as an end itself.
    How would your "empire" interact with the Star Trek Federation?

    Also, exactly how optimized is the party? I want to make sure you are not overstepping the "cheese boundary" I have set.
    Last edited by Destro2119; 2021-02-16 at 11:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Painter wizard? Singularity sorcerer? Never heard of either of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empyreal Dragon View Post
    Painter wizard? Singularity sorcerer? Never heard of either of them.
    Basically nothing on "pun-pun" level.
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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    No not really, other than I disallow uber cheese like singularity sorcerer/painter wizard/candle of invocation wish spam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empyreal Dragon View Post
    Painter wizard? Singularity sorcerer? Never heard of either of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    Basically nothing on "pun-pun" level.
    Yeah, I was going to ask about this, too, as I am also unfamiliar with those designations.

    How about the Playground standard, "no infinite, no arbitrary"?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2021-02-16 at 01:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Yeah, I was going to ask about this, too, as I am also unfamiliar with those designations.

    How about the Playground standard, "no infinite, no arbitrary"?

    Yeah, sounds about right.

    Also, look up painter wizard. It is the poster child of PF broken nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    Yeah, sounds about right.

    Also, look up painter wizard. It is the poster child of PF broken nonsense.
    Is it just spamming trompe l'oeuils of overpowered creatures(including creatures that can create more trompe l'oeuils and whatever) with craft construct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Is it just spamming trompe l'oeuils of overpowered creatures(including creatures that can create more trompe l'oeuils and whatever) with craft construct?
    Pretty much. It apparently abuses Wishes, NI wealth shenanigans, and town availability rules… plus custom demiplanes (utilizing fast time shenanigans and timeless traits, of course)… to get NI paint… to make NI paintings able to make more paintings.

    Pretty much the standard "every bit of silly we can find", zero creativity… tied into, in this case, paint-based Minionmancy.

    And uses the obscure rule (that apparently nobody knew last time I brought up Trompe L'oeil *grumble, grumble*) that, in PF, created constructs obey your orders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    How would your "empire" interact with the Star Trek Federation?
    They would be seen as a valuable ally. The Federation has pretty clear ambition to become the overall galactic state (and beyond, if technology permits), just as my budding nation does. Overall strategy between the two would depend on their relative size at first contact. If my "empire" met the Federation when the latter covers half the Alpha and Beta quadrants, then it would seek to become a member state and essentially piggy-back on the Federation's successful absorption of so many planets and cultures. Given the value to be obtained by adding magic to the Federation's already extreme technological capacity, this would clearly be beneficial for both parties. If, on the other hand, my...let's call it Republic of Worlds, were the significantly larger of the two, it would seek to peacefully integrate the Federation in like manner--from an outside perspective, the difference between the two processes would be minimal, as it would mostly be a matter of whose laws form the foundation of the resulting state, but ultimately the two would be on a clear trajectory toward unification. If the two states are of about equal size and importance....probably would favor becoming a member of the Federation (or, rather, having the member states of the Republic of Worlds dissolve the Republic and each individually join the Federation).

    Also, exactly how optimized is the party? I want to make sure you are not overstepping the "cheese boundary" I have set.
    "PO" stands for "practical optimization." It avoids obviously broken cheese and infinite loops, but otherwise pursues optimized results even if they don't always make total sense. Key example there being a shadow mage whose illusions are more than 100% real, or which become even more real after "succeeding" on a save to disbelieve them.

    In build terms, Pun-pun is automatically forbidden under a PO approach, but Planar Shepherd is not automatically forbidden. Certain crap you can pull might be, but the PrC itself is legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    Basically nothing on "pun-pun" level.
    Absolutely not. Nigh-infinite looping, frex, would not be a thing. Leadership-type effects, on the other hand, are kind of implied by the premise, since this party is implicitly leading the creation of an organization at the level of planets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Yeah, I was going to ask about this, too, as I am also unfamiliar with those designations.

    How about the Playground standard, "no infinite, no arbitrary"?
    Yep, just so. There's still a ridiculous amount you can do even within those rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    They would be seen as a valuable ally. The Federation has pretty clear ambition to become the overall galactic state (and beyond, if technology permits), just as my budding nation does. Overall strategy between the two would depend on their relative size at first contact. If my "empire" met the Federation when the latter covers half the Alpha and Beta quadrants, then it would seek to become a member state and essentially piggy-back on the Federation's successful absorption of so many planets and cultures. Given the value to be obtained by adding magic to the Federation's already extreme technological capacity, this would clearly be beneficial for both parties. If, on the other hand, my...let's call it Republic of Worlds, were the significantly larger of the two, it would seek to peacefully integrate the Federation in like manner--from an outside perspective, the difference between the two processes would be minimal, as it would mostly be a matter of whose laws form the foundation of the resulting state, but ultimately the two would be on a clear trajectory toward unification. If the two states are of about equal size and importance....probably would favor becoming a member of the Federation (or, rather, having the member states of the Republic of Worlds dissolve the Republic and each individually join the Federation).


    "PO" stands for "practical optimization." It avoids obviously broken cheese and infinite loops, but otherwise pursues optimized results even if they don't always make total sense. Key example there being a shadow mage whose illusions are more than 100% real, or which become even more real after "succeeding" on a save to disbelieve them.

    In build terms, Pun-pun is automatically forbidden under a PO approach, but Planar Shepherd is not automatically forbidden. Certain crap you can pull might be, but the PrC itself is legal.


    Absolutely not. Nigh-infinite looping, frex, would not be a thing. Leadership-type effects, on the other hand, are kind of implied by the premise, since this party is implicitly leading the creation of an organization at the level of planets.


    Yep, just so. There's still a ridiculous amount you can do even within those rules.
    What if the Federation decided to war with your Republic (since they are basically space facists )?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    What if the Federation decided to war with your Republic (since they are basically space facists )?
    Uh...who's space fascist here?

    The Federation is a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. The Republic I have proposed would likewise be a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. In both cases, the vast bulk of the citizenry live as they choose. Freedom of expression, assembly, individuality, and belief are all demonstrated, and the right to due process, privacy, and bodily autonomy are likewise shown. There is no demonization of external forces, nor a leashing of private enterprise to the state's control. None of the hallmarks of "fascism" are present in either nation, so I'm deeply confused as to why you would use that term in this context.

    (Note that I reject the ways things have developed in Picard, as that's just made Star Trek yet another grimdark angst fest for no reason. Likewise, anything relating to the movie that made gorram Khan Noonien Singh an important security advisor for the Federation! The new generation of writers has no idea how to write good Star Trek work and it truly saddens me to see the state it's in.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    The new generation of writers has no idea how to write good Star Trek work and it truly saddens me to see the state it's in.)
    Oh man. I tried to share Star Trek with the Next Generation. After the show, I tried to gauge their reaction:

    Me: "who's your favorite character?"

    Young girl: "none of them."

    Me: "…what?"

    Young girl: "none of them."

    She went on to explain how this one was incompetent, that one was a liar, etc, giving the most thought-out description of the characters I'd heard.

    Then she summed up with, "so, none of them.".

    Although the experience left me very proud of her, it left me equally sad for what had become of Star Trek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    Uh...who's space fascist here?

    The Federation is a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. The Republic I have proposed would likewise be a presidential republic with a post-scarcity economy. In both cases, the vast bulk of the citizenry live as they choose. Freedom of expression, assembly, individuality, and belief are all demonstrated, and the right to due process, privacy, and bodily autonomy are likewise shown. There is no demonization of external forces, nor a leashing of private enterprise to the state's control. None of the hallmarks of "fascism" are present in either nation, so I'm deeply confused as to why you would use that term in this context.

    (Note that I reject the ways things have developed in Picard, as that's just made Star Trek yet another grimdark angst fest for no reason. Likewise, anything relating to the movie that made gorram Khan Noonien Singh an important security advisor for the Federation! The new generation of writers has no idea how to write good Star Trek work and it truly saddens me to see the state it's in.)
    There are a bunch of examples, like Kirk getting yeeted out of the ship for daring to defy the council with no trial. Plus, every episode is a ship's log by a STARFLEET captain and could be biased. Also the Prime Directive was stated by an actor in Star Trek to be "fascist nonsense."

    IN any case, what if they attacked for whatever reason?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Destro2119 View Post
    There are a bunch of examples, like Kirk getting yeeted out of the ship for daring to defy the council with no trial. Plus, every episode is a ship's log by a STARFLEET captain and could be biased. Also the Prime Directive was stated by an actor in Star Trek to be "fascist nonsense."
    He's a military officer, subject to the exigencies of political stuff. You can be stripped of rank without trial in plenty of real-world non-fascist nations, especially when you openly defy orders from your commander-in-chief and break actual civil laws. That he got away without a trial is, if anything, a kindness--he COULD have been tried and sentenced under Federation law, but they let him off relatively gently in light of his storied career.

    And, yes, I'm well aware that the military-scientific bias is present, but things like Deep Space Nine cover that quite well and show more than a little of what it's like to be a Federation civilian. Indeed, not always ones that get along with the Federation government.

    "Fascism" should not be thrown around casually as if it were simply a synonym for totalitarianism or abuse of human rights. It means something specific.

    IN any case, what if they attacked for whatever reason?
    If somehow that happened, the Republic would defend itself, of course. Magic is quite capable of defeating a variety of Trek technology, e.g. via invisibility or globes of invulnerability. Conquest would be unnecessary, merely defense and denial of resources.

    The point of interacting with other cultures is to demonstrate the ability to succeed more, to do better, to live more fully, through cooperation rather than conquest. If the Federation were truly an oppressive regime, then breaking that regime and enabling its people to live as their overlords claim they do would be a major victory. If it is not an oppressive regime, then cooperation and coordination can permit greater success than individual efforts could.

    "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." Sun Tzu, The Art of War. How better to break resistance than to befriend, and thus make resistance unnecessary--to induce your enemy to willingly cease resisting?

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    Default Re: Theorycraft: Intergalactic/Interdimensional Empires

    It doesnt help you get there but it DOES give you somewhere to go, the Create Treasure Map spell when used on an extraterrestrial corpse could be interesting/amusing.

    Additionally PF natively has both a Terraformer Robot and Terraform spell.
    Though, to me, neither seems quite up to the task their name implies they're capable of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    It doesnt help you get there but it DOES give you somewhere to go, the Create Treasure Map spell when used on an extraterrestrial corpse could be interesting/amusing.

    Additionally PF natively has both a Terraformer Robot and Terraform spell.
    Though, to me, neither seems quite up to the task their name implies they're capable of.
    Frankly, the latter two things you mentioned are more for "quirky roleplay" than anything mechanical. I think any magical Terraforming should just be an epic spell or something that actually terraforms a large place.
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