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2021-02-23, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2021-02-23, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2021
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Yeah, I was going to mention Unorthodox Flurry, but an Aptitude Necklace of Natural Weapons is a brilliant solution. It is dependence on an item, which I understand is usually frowned on here, but it's a pretty cheap item all things considered, Aptitude is only a +1 bonus.
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2021-02-26, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
I was kicking around using poison healer because the language on spider tattoo says that you deliver contact poison, so like youde be punching contact poison
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2021-03-01, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
How about some speculation about the next ingredient while we wait?
I think we didn't have a racial prerequisite in a while. Might be time for one again.
Also a truly awful ingredient I would dread:
Warchief from miniatures handbook might be one of the most horrible classes to optimize given how little class features it has.
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2021-03-01, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2020
- Location
- Jerusalem
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Last racial requirement comp wasn't very popular, but I'd be down for another one - maybe a less restrictive race/class combination would see more interest. Spinemeld Warrior?
From me, and maybe not next round (since we've just had a full BaB SI - I realize not everyone likes martials as much as I do), but I'd love to see Arcane Archer, Blackguard, and Duelist come along at some point. Horizon Walker is too much of a passive generalist, and the rest of the DMG is either too good, too short, or has been done already. These 3 will basically finish up a book, which I think is nice.
Otherwise, I'm down for anything.
Edit: just realized insidious corruptor was racially restricted, and a popular ingredient. I categorised it as half-caster in my brain, so when I was talking about the last racially restricted ingredient, I was thinking about atavist.Last edited by H_H_F_F; 2021-03-01 at 08:04 AM.
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2021-03-01, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Shining blade of erroneous!
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2021-03-01, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Tattooed Monk, but not taking the 10th lvl is instant disqualification.
Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Logic's Deathloop Mafia and Cazero's Graduates Of Hope's Peak - Danganronpa Mafia
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My Homebrew
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2021-03-01, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2020
- Location
- Jerusalem
- Gender
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2021-03-01, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
When was the last unique-casting-progression SI? Those are always weird.
In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2021-03-01, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
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- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
I'm prepared, eager even, for Shining Blade.
Eye of Gruumsh is a race-locked PrC that I've been looking forward to for a while (I think due to Viscount mentioning it before becoming chair, actually), though like Spinemeld Warrior, it's full BAB. Kinslayer (Drow, full BAB) and Scar Enforcer (Half-Elf, medium BAB, half-casting) also have some potential.
The thing about Arcane Archer is that Imbue Arrow is so good, and so much better than the other features, that taking levels after 2 instead of doing things that progress casting could be said to be a worse UoSI. Arcane Archer without Imbue Arrow, garbage class though it would be, might actually be a more interesting ingredient.
Blackguard was done in the BG version of the contest before it ported over here, though I doubt that'd be a serious issue. I'd be more interested in Defiant as a 'fallen' PrC though. Similarly, while I think there's some fun to be had with Duelist (though I'd expect a small round with several significantly overlapping entries), but would be more excited by Arcane Duelist, which feels like it's going for a similar general vibe, but would probably see more diverse entries due to how bafflingly designed it is.
For unique casting PrCs, I could see Disciple of Thrymm or Ebonmar Infiltrator.
Iron Chef Medals
SpoilerSir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L
Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII
Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII
Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII
Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII
Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII
Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX
The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI
Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV
Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV
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2021-03-01, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2020
- Location
- Jerusalem
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Both disciple of Thyrm and Scar enforcer are on my cool ingredients shortlist. 100% agreed on those.
I get your points on the DMG classes, though I think Blackguard can be an excellent ingredient - and it having been done on another site at some point doesn't seem like a good enough reason to ban it. Also, finding interesting things to do with Arcane Archer past level 2 seems like a challenge worthy of this competition. As I've said, I also find the idea of "finishing" a book pleasing, though I totally understand if others don't care about that sort of thing.
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2021-03-01, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
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- Texas
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
In addition to the ones mentioned, darkrunner is an appropriately easy to enter, underwhelming, and generally stinky prestige class.
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2021-03-01, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Like I said, I think Arcane Archer 10 would be a more interesting challenge if Imbue Arrow weren't just sitting there. As is, though, you're getting three 1/day abilities, two of which amount to worse versions of the same 2nd level spell from common entry classes (and worse in a specific way that makes them incompatible with Imbue Arrow), one of which is in direct competition with Imbue Arrow that it's clearly losing, and then a flat enhancement bonus, and Arrow of Death. Those abilities aren't uninteresting, but each is pretty much just objectively worse than a single spell slot per day with a good or interesting spell for Imbue Arrow in it, even by the metric of Use of Secret Ingredient.
Iron Chef Medals
SpoilerSir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L
Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII
Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII
Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII
Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII
Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII
Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX
The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI
Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV
Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV
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2021-03-01, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
I agree that arcane archer is just not a good idea, basically for the reasons you lay out. I can say that I'd sit out if we removed imbue arrow, though, since that's just far too dull to be worth anyone's time.
Duelist has literally one ability that isn't +numbers (and not exactly good numbers) or a readily available feat. And that one ability, while not super common, also isn't unique. I agree that arcane duelist is much more intriguingly bizarre (and very, very much not good). I'm scared to list blessed of Gruumsh as an alternative; on the one hand, it has abilities, but on the other hand, those abilities suuuuuck (so many unnecessarily daily limitations! WHY?!).
The only thing I like about scar enforcer is the fact that the fluff is basically half-elves whining about how much they suck. (And they do.)
Spinemeld warrior is hilariously bad, but since the entry is SO wide-open, I bet we'd get some weird stuff there, which would be fun.
Disciple of Thrym is nifty. I took a dip in it way back in my very first Iron Chef entry. Used it to qualify for the divine side of ardent dilettante.
It's bad stuff. No argument there.
I've got some ideas for shaper of form, so I'm looking forward to that round.
Maybe some weird Eberron thing?In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2021-03-01, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Terra Australis
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2021-03-01, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2020
- Location
- Jerusalem
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
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2021-03-01, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Always glad to see people discuss possible ingredients. Many of the ones mentioned are already on my list of potential SIs.
Are people that jazzed for Ebonmar Infiltrator? It strikes me as fairly competent, if not incredibly exciting.
My 2 cents on Arcane Archer is that while its abilities are bad, imbue arrow gives just enough of an interesting feature that there's material to work with.
I don't know what you're talking about, Warchief is dope.
I completely agree that Darkrunner would make the perfect Iron Chef ingredient. It was round 42.
I've settled on what will likely be the next ingredient. It has yet to be mentioned in the thread.Last edited by The Viscount; 2021-03-01 at 05:50 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-03-02, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Yeah. The daily (weekly for the capstone) use limits are brutal. I definitely would rather *ahem* see, Eye of Gruumsh over Blessed of Gruumsh. I also suspect that if we got either, someone would want to use both, since they have overlapping flavor and prereqs, but amusingly might not be able to without fully blinding themselves, unless the same eye-removing ritual counted for both or they got an extra eye from somewhere.
The problem is that it's too interesting a feature. Once I have two levels of Arcane Archer, if I take two more levels in it, the class gives me the ability to use a crappy version of Brilliant Energy Arrow that has action weirdness keeping me from using it in conjunction with Imbue Arrow 1/day and an additional +1 enhancement to my arrows. If I take two levels of any spellcasting class, I gain a spell level, which probably contains something that Imbue Arrow increases the value of by considerably more. Similarly, while I *could* try to optimize Hail of Arrows to the point where it would outdamage, say, Imbued Arrow Cone of Cold, but that's a big ask, and I could instead just get one or more extra uses of Cone of Cold per day along with the other things that come with 6 levels of casting. In basically every case, I'm getting more value added from the SI by not taking more of the SI.
I've settled on what will likely be the next ingredient. It has yet to be mentioned in the thread.
Iron Chef Medals
SpoilerSir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L
Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII
Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII
Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII
Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII
Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII
Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX
The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI
Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV
Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV
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2021-03-02, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
If we’re talking about racial classes, How about some lunkers from serpent kingdoms?
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2021-03-02, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
I'm hesitant to use Dungeon Delver. The entry prerequisites are absolutely punishing, and I try to use ingredients with more than one way in to encourage people to use varied classes.
All the racially restricted classes I see in serpent kingdoms are restricted to races with punishing ECL adjustments. At least one of the non-restricted ones might make an appearance. though.Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-03-02, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
I don't particularly want a 3.0 class right now (at least not any of the stinkers I'm thinking of), but this discussion got me looking at a bunch of unupdated 3.0 PrCs (as we've had some memorable discussions of in the past) and, well, I'm sure it's not a surprise how bad they are. What got me this time, though, is how completely alien the design philosophy feels. I get that the game was relatively young and they didn't have the modern sense of balance we associate with the later stuff, but there's just an utter lack of cohesion, let alone a progression of proper level-appropriate abilities.
With a lot of bad modern classes, I can see what they were going for. Thunder guide is an absolute trash heap of a class, but the abilities all share some thematic similarities and they all make sense. They're weak as hell, but there's coherence to it, even if the appropriate use of the class is to scrap it for parts and give out its abilities as nifty flavor ribbons as rewards for good RP. But for an awful lot of 3.0 classes, I can't even say that much for them.
Anyone else feel like they're just really looking at another world when trying to fathom the design intent behind 3.0 stuff? It's not even the quality so much as just the lack of cohesion that's getting me, at least this time around.In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2021-03-02, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
I agree. One thing about the design philosophy, especially for divine casters, is that prereqs are often so prohibitive it seems like you have to plan your entire character from creation towards entering the class. There aren't that many 3.0 classes on my list currently.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-03-02, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
I think my absolute favorite example of the baffling design philosophy is master samurai, from Sword and Fist. Which was clearly designed by two different people.
- Five prereq feats, cool cool cool
- First level: Bonus feat, and a +2 bonus to Tumble, which you can't use while armored unless you're a dwarf. And the class makes you proficient with armor. Hope you're a dwarf!
- Second: A really, really weird bonus if you, um, delay? I guess? Also 5-ft after a Cleave, that's kind of cool.
- Third: Better than the Mobility feat? I guess I'll take it.
- Fourth: RAI? This is like + 0.5×STR, woo. RAW? Pretty nice bonus since it doesn't say you don't get the normal 1.5×STR as well.
- Fifth-tenth: Sure, let's just bounce back and forth between two really bad and uninspiring class features (with no particular synergy with anything that came before) and s-l-o-w-l-y grant uses per day?
How... how do you even explain that?In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2021-03-02, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Because of the Trapfinding req, or the need to get Disable Device/Open Lock as a class skill? I'd say both have more varied accessibility than one might think.
I think they assumed that you 1) were a single-classed fighter with nothing better to do with all your feats than qualify for crappy prestige classes and 2) would of course be switching between ranged and melee combat and from horseback to on foot regularly.
EDIT: As for the shift after 4th level, I have no idea. Maybe they just hit a deadline.
It is one of my perennial frustrations that there isn't really a reasonable class with Supreme Cleave. They're all either gated behind a zillion taxes or have some other ludicrous aspect that similarly tries to engulf the entire build.Last edited by WhamBamSam; 2021-03-02 at 10:36 PM.
Iron Chef Medals
SpoilerSir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L
Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII
Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII
Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII
Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII
Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII
Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX
The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI
Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV
Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV
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2021-03-02, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-03-02, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2021
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
My personal favourite of the Sword & Fist ones is the part where they thought it was vitally important to put in the prerequisites of the Lasher - a prestige class which requires Weapon Focus (Whip), whose abilities revolve entirely, 100% around the use of the whip or whip dagger, which has a line saying 'when using a whip or whip dagger' in every one of its abilities and even its bonus feats just so you don't try to do anything even slightly out of the box - that in order to take levels in the class, you need to own a whip. Like. That somehow, if they didn't remind you, you might forget. To spend one, single gp on buying yourself a whip, for your focused whip-wielding character.
Oh, they also note, as an aside, that a really wealthy Lasher might own a Mighty whip and a Mighty whip-dagger. Such extravagance, for a 6th level character to splash out on both a 200gp item and a 225gp item. Much bling. Wow.Last edited by NotInventedHere; 2021-03-02 at 10:53 PM.
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2021-03-03, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Michigan
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
Iron Chef Medals
SpoilerSir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L
Nick Snarespan - Gold - IC LIII
Lucy "Legs" Silvertail - Bronze - IC LXVIII
Bolfarg of Knoss - Gold - IC LXXVII
Ivarr Deathborn - Bronze - IC LXXVII
Ahmtel - Silver - IC LXXVIII
Tocke of Nessus - Gold - IC LXXIX
The Blessed Third - Silver - IC LXXXI
Galahad Galapagos - Gold - IC LXXXIV
Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV
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2021-03-03, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
I would like to ask if a specific item could also become a SI?
A few days ago I felt the need to put Ring of Telekinesis on my to-do list for 3.5 stuff. I really want to make a build that relies on this item. And having a challenge would mean I would have the luck to see a bunch of builds xD
Sorry for the maybe selfish question here.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-03-03 at 01:25 AM.
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
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2021-03-03, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX
How foolish of me. I don't know how I could've forgotten since it was only 8 years ago.
Please no to dungeon delver. It's a boring class that doesn't do anything, requires like 80 skill points and only allows two possible methods of entry.
As to the whole deal with 3.0 design "philosophy," (assuming the designers had one for the sake of argument,) after moving from 2e to 3e they massively overvalued how useful multiclassing was and often used it as a synonym for powergaming. They thought a wizard10/fighter10 was equivalent to a wizard20, and designed a lot of terrible 3.0 prcs around these principles. Why would you want to be a straight wizard when you could burn a bunch of levels in rogue and be a magelord or whatever.
Also with 3.0 classes it's very clear at times that the class exists to represent one specific npc in one of the designers' home games. This was textually revealed at least once, I believe in eye of xanathar a few rounds ago, so it's not that the designer thinks that you want to be a [dwarf] who worships [chaos] is really good at [lockpicking] and drives a [forklift], but that he wanted to canonize the special abilities of one of his random throwaway bad guys from a campaign he ran.
3.0 classes will oftimes have crappy 1/day slas instead of class features too, which I do not like.
For master samurai, it was probably supposed to be a 5 lvl prc then at some point the editor said "we need one more 10 lvl prc" and they just did this to pad instead of coming up with something interesting.
Can't wait to see what the next ingredient is.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2021-03-03, 02:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CIX