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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Martial Controller

    I致e decided to revisit my attempts at we organizing 4th e D&D.
    Right now I知 making sure that there is four classes to each power source, each class tied to role. However the martial power source is lacking a controller class. So I知 wondering if I can transform a current controller class into a martial. I was thinking about re-flavoring the Seeker as a martial class.

    Side note; i知 trying to go back to the basics of class design as it was in the 4th players handbook.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Well your first problem is that the seeker is not a controller
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Well your first problem is that the seeker is not a controller
    I知 reading it right now and it say controller.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    I致e decided to revisit my attempts at we organizing 4th e D&D.
    Right now I知 making sure that there is four classes to each power source, each class tied to role. However the martial power source is lacking a controller class. So I知 wondering if I can transform a current controller class into a martial. I was thinking about re-flavoring the Seeker as a martial class.

    Side note; i知 trying to go back to the basics of class design as it was in the 4th players handbook.
    Controller is a rather weird archetype. Defining it is odd, because Wizards are swiss army knives and Warlocks/Classic Rogues use a lot of debuffs so the overlap is large.

    I would define a controller as sacrificing actions to reduce the number of actions the enemy can take, acting as a force divider in the opposite fashion of how a leader is a force multiplier. So a martial controller needs to be able to trade actions to take away multiple enemy actions, putting the team out ahead. They are going to have less cinematic ways of doing that then making walls or clouds of noxious gas, unless you go hand grenade ninjas.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    unless you go hand grenade ninjas.
    I was actually thinking along those lines having someone throwing non-magical items like caltrops, marbles, grease, smoke, etc. unfortunately that痴 kind of a gadgeteer and the Artificer has claim that cinematic element. I was thinking about turning the Ranger into a controller due to their connections with traps and snares and using their environment to their advantage.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    I was actually recently trying to figure out how I would implement a Trapper class for a 4e-derived heartbreaker as a controller for a Device power source (an Alchemist would also be a Device user), but I was having trouble getting it to work right. More than any other class they would be terrain dependent. In an open area, they might be pretty useless without some significant forced-movement abilities since an enemy could avoid whatever snares, caltrops, marbles, or whatever you set. In tight spaces, they might be crazy powerful since enemies would be forced to move through the zones created by their abilities as there is no other place to go. The alternative of creating semi-autonomous stationary-pet turrets would be a lot easier to get working, but thematically doesn't quite fit (although it might work for a sub-class or paragon path or something).

    Getting the "deals with many enemies" and the "cripples the enemy" roles to mesh is a little tricky to do with a martial character. A BFS wielder who uses lots of large swings and cleaving attacks (hitting multiple enemies, adjacent enemies, or a blast) could do the former, whereas a brawler/pugilist character who grapples, trips, pins, and otherwise fights dirty to inflict slow, immobilize, stun, etc could do the latter. I could see knockback, tripping, or DoTs from getting hit by a giant sword that cleaves through multiple targets, but it probably wouldn't do some of the weirder things that controllers can do; this character would be a striker first and a controller second.

    A grenadier could be a controller, by throwing different types of bombs with special effects, but it would be debatable whether they would even be a martial character.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeda View Post
    I was actually recently trying to figure out how I would implement a Trapper class for a 4e-derived heartbreaker as a controller for a Device power source (an Alchemist would also be a Device user), but I was having trouble getting it to work right. More than any other class they would be terrain dependent. In an open area, they might be pretty useless without some significant forced-movement abilities since an enemy could avoid whatever snares, caltrops, marbles, or whatever you set. In tight spaces, they might be crazy powerful since enemies would be forced to move through the zones created by their abilities as there is no other place to go. The alternative of creating semi-autonomous stationary-pet turrets would be a lot easier to get working, but thematically doesn't quite fit (although it might work for a sub-class or paragon path or something).

    Getting the "deals with many enemies" and the "cripples the enemy" roles to mesh is a little tricky to do with a martial character. A BFS wielder who uses lots of large swings and cleaving attacks (hitting multiple enemies, adjacent enemies, or a blast) could do the former, whereas a brawler/pugilist character who grapples, trips, pins, and otherwise fights dirty to inflict slow, immobilize, stun, etc could do the latter. I could see knockback, tripping, or DoTs from getting hit by a giant sword that cleaves through multiple targets, but it probably wouldn't do some of the weirder things that controllers can do; this character would be a striker first and a controller second.

    A grenadier could be a controller, by throwing different types of bombs with special effects, but it would be debatable whether they would even be a martial character.
    Have the powers target the spaces around you or your allies? So if the enemy targets them they get hit with the trap. You could even make them majority reaction powers, picking the locations on your allies turn with the implication they were preset.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    As I continued to ponder on the 渡inja theme I was reminded of a cartoon(Avatar the last Airbender) character that used martial arts to disable the enemy around her. So perhaps someone who is capable of moving around the battlefield a lot without getting attacked combine that with various items that they can throw on the ground. Although this might step on the toes of the monk class.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Anxe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Maybe you just introduce it as a bunch of alternate class features and powers for monks then?

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Kind of had the thought of using whips: tangle someone up to Prone or Immobilize, and then Pull them. Add some Sonic damage burst attacks from cracking the whip, maybe Deafen or Daze as you get stronger. Give it a class feature to make whips do damage, and increase its range as you go up tiers. Sure, whips don't work that way, but if I can have a guy that shouts at people to replenish their HP because he's so courageous, I'll make a shot at having a guy that can whip from farther away because he's good with whips. I don't know if there's enough in there to remain relevant all thirty levels, but there's room to start.

    But, uh, returning that to the idea of applying it to an existing class, uh... Rats. I really want to say, "Take a Fighter, drop Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority, Heavier Armor proficiency, and 3 surges per day (so 6+con). Add Whip Training, increase whip damage to 1d8, twice per encounter whenever you [land an attack with a whip weapon whatever the verbiage would be that would allow this to apply to melee basic attacks and powers with the weapon keyword while wielding a whip] you may choose to add Pull (Wis min 1), Prone, or Dazed EONT to the attack, and an at-will power that lets you make a Burst 1 in range of your whip that does 1d6+Wis sonic damage. Avoid selecting powers that aren't controller-y." Thing is, part of what makes Fighters the unofficial martial controllers, is their Defender capability, so it might come out as an even worse Controller than just rolling an unmodified Fighter.

    And yes those Controller abilities should scale with tiers I'm just trying to keep things condensed because I have zero experience in mid or high level play.

    But, uh, if you're just concerned about the Controller role as printed, well, someone at Wizards believes Hunters are Martial and Primal Controllers...
    Last edited by OracleofWuffing; 2021-02-05 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Slowed EONT would be kind of silly for the range of a whip, Daze doesn't make sense but works mechanically.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Eurus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    To be clear, you're talking about a martial but not melee controller? That should be easy enough to do with just refluffing your class of choice, yeah.

    Making a melee controller that isn't just a defender but also doesn't die way too fast would be a little more challenging...
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    I've never been a fan of 4e, and even less of the "role" concept. 5e is better for dropping it.

    That said, the issue of a martial controller always puzzled me. All the other "power sources" had a class for each role (in the pre-Essentials books); but there didn't seem to be a martial controller.

    Someone at my local FLGS 'splained it to me: the archer ranger was supposed to fill that niche. Specializing in distance attacks, it does the most toward battlefield control.

    Like I said, not a fan; but that was my understanding.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Keledrath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Making a melee controller that isn't just a defender but also doesn't die way too fast would be a little more challenging...
    Not really? That's just a druid focusing on beast form.

    Honestly, my goto martial controller has always been the Seeker|Ranger hybrid grabbing Archery Mastery for either Clever Shot or Rapid Shot. I've seen about a half dozen variations on this setup using different races, weapons, and paragon paths to accomplish different goals. It's a surprisingly versatile controller.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    I ran a game once where we re-purposed the Invoker into a Martial Controller. Had them use weapons instead of implements.

    I think it might have been, essentially, a hybrid Invoker/Warlord (but with rule modifications).

    Been a while.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    sandmote's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeda View Post
    More than any other class they would be terrain dependent. In an open area, they might be pretty useless without some significant forced-movement abilities since an enemy could avoid whatever snares, caltrops, marbles, or whatever you set. In tight spaces, they might be crazy powerful since enemies would be forced to move through the zones created by their abilities as there is no other place to go. The alternative of creating semi-autonomous stationary-pet turrets would be a lot easier to get working, but thematically doesn't quite fit (although it might work for a sub-class or paragon path or something).

    Getting the "deals with many enemies" and the "cripples the enemy" roles to mesh is a little tricky to do with a martial character.
    I'd a weapon throwing factor to this, like using a rope as a lasso or for bolas to restrain. The roman pilum was used similarly, to get stuck in a target and interfere with their movement, so there could be abilities using throw weapons like that. And if they depend on clean lines of attack, these might help make up the difference of how much the enemy can maneuver.

    Maybe call the class "skirmisher," and use "ninja" and "trapper" for paragon paths?
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  16. - Top - End - #16
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Your best bet might be a refluffed Seeker or Invoker, or maybe a modified druid. Take away wild shape, dump the beast form keyword, and toss a few of the non-beast form powers, change the power source, and you would have a functioning martial druid...

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    Keledrath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    If refluffing is on the table, I don't see why you even need to modify the druid. Just fluff wild shape as a stance change or weapon swap, probably between like a bow in humanoid form and a melee weapon in beast form, since they tend to be ranged/area vs melee/close
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  18. - Top - End - #18
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    To be clear, you're talking about a martial but not melee controller? That should be easy enough to do with just refluffing your class of choice, yeah.

    Making a melee controller that isn't just a defender but also doesn't die way too fast would be a little more challenging...
    Hmmm... pole-arm specialist? Many of their powers operate in a two-square burst around them, meaning they take up a sizable amount of real-estate, effectively threatening a 5sq*5sq section of the battlefield at all times. Powers that push, slide, or slow.
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  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    I saw a homebrew martial controller a while back, lemme see... here it is.

    Can't say I've gone through it with a fine-toothed comb, but it's based around throwing down traps and stuff like that, and I remember being impressed by it.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2021-04-26 at 03:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
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  20. - Top - End - #20
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Making your martial controller an "Exotic weapon Specialist" might let the player have a reasonable amount of control (pun incidental) of how they balance the controller elements...
    Look at the multiclass options for whips and chains for ideas of powers.
    Maybe each weapon comes with a set of powers, so when you choose a weapon, you are also choosing your at will power. At will powers also let you draw the relevant weapon as part of the attack action Then encounter and daily powers need you to be wielding the right weapon

    Net - control of multiple targets in an area at range. At Will - "Cast" - range 10, minor damage, immobilise and optional pull.
    Whip - short range control with damage. At will "A lick of the cat" Short ranged, single target, bonus to hit
    Chain - Damage multiple foes at fairly short ranges and melee. ""Chain punch" Melee 2, damage
    Grenades - pretty well discussed above. The at will you choose gives you grenade proficiency and the ability to make and use the appropriate grenade. Eg "Frost grenade" gives proficiency in grenades and the ability to make frost grenades". Encounter and daily powers allow more exciting greandes
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  21. - Top - End - #21
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Captain Boomerang or Batman from DC are both Martial Controllers, a boomerang themed class would actually be pretty fun.
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  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Hmm, there's also the idea of suppressing fire. That could be an interesting take on an archer/ranged archetype, actually; it's not that any individual shot does a lot of damage, it's that any creature that walks into the no-go zone is getting shot for a little damage and is slowed by having to juke and weave.

    In fact, there's quite a few things such a character could do that fit the theme and work as a controller:
    • Suppressing fire to create no-go zones
    • Various flavors of volleys to hit large areas
    • Demoralization effects instead of direct damage
    • Forced movement as foes dive out of the way
    • Trick shots to inflict status effects: daze enemies with a shot to the helmet, slow them down with a shot to the leg, make them waste an action with an arrow pinning their cloak to the ground, startle them with a shot just past the eyes, etc.
    • Maybe some trick arrows. At low level these would be things like a rope attached to the arrow or simply throwing dust in their eyes; at higher levels you'd see alchemical arrows with various effects
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
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  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Martial Controller

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Hmm, there's also the idea of suppressing fire.
    So, like a Defender's Aura, but an area burst instead of a close burst? You can make a RBA as an OA?
    Last edited by Beoric; 2021-04-29 at 09:25 PM.

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