DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

[DataNinja]

Well, it's that time again, when we've talked so much we've filled up the thread. The good news is, we have a brand new thread! So, we'd better go and fill this one up, too. So c'mon over, sit down, and just talk. Doesn't matter if you've been here before, or never. Everyone's welcome, so long as you follow the rules below.

Spoiler: Links to Prior Threads

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Random Banter Rules:

1. Spam. For the purposes of RB, one word posts are generally considered spam. Likewise, posts that are nothing but *actions like this* are also be considered spam. Remember that the quality of the post's content is much better than the speed of your response.

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[Peelee]

What if the real treasure was the threads we made on the way?

[Tvtyrant]

I wish I could see a new thread, but it's invisible. I think it might be a data ninja.

[Rater202]

To repeat my prior point for convenience, since Dataninja ninja'd my post with the New Thread

Let's say you need to walk across a beam 6 inches wide and 6 feet long. You're not intuitively aware of any numbers that quantity anything, you're aware of how off-balance you feel.

And we're not the Hulk, are we? We don't think in Math and perceive the world in numbers. Hulk does.

We're talking about someone who can smell lies—not detect subtle changes in body odor when someone is stressed by telling a lie, like say Wolverine or dare Devil, but rather the intangible concept of "untruth" whenever someone speaks a lie in his presence. He lives in a world where radiation poisoning sometimes turns you into an immortal metaphor for your own mental health issues.

"Hulk thinks in Math" is honestly the least weird thing about him.

[Fyraltari]

Ah, my rewording of the rules lasted five threads!

I maybe didn't explain it right

when Amadeus Cho attempted to cure Banner of the Hulk by using modified Sternbots to drain the Hulk's powers into himself(it didn't stick), becoming the Totally Awesome Hulk, he is in control of himself in his Hulk Form and describes it as if you're intuitively aware of the numbers that quantify everything and instinctively plug them in to figure things out without even thinking about it.

No, you explained it very clearly, but it's still wrong. There aren't "numbers that quantify everything" numbers are an invention of the human mind, math is just a tool we came up with. Muscle control has nothing to do with math. It's just a sciency sounding way of saying "he's somehow instictively aware of how heavy/hard/dense/etc everything around him is so he knows exactly how hard to it to not make more damage than necessary."

[enderlord99]

There are still people who have heard of both Neil Cicierega and Lemon Demon, but don't know they're the same person.

[Rater202]

Ah, my rewording of the rules lasted five threads!



No, you explained it very clearly, but it's still wrong. There aren't "numbers that quantify everything" numbers are an invention of the human mind, math is just a tool we came up with. Muscle control has nothing to do with math. It's just a sciency sounding way of saying "he's somehow instictively aware of how heavy/hard/dense/etc everything around him is so he knows exactly how hard to it to not make more damage than necessary."

Hulk looks at tank. Hulk wants to smash the tank, but not the people inside it.

Hulk sees in his mind's eye the exact equations needed to calculate exactly how much force he needs to exert and which part of the tank to hit from what angle to do that.

Those equations in his mind's eye solve themselves.

Hulk know knows how to smash the tank without smashing the people inside.

This all happened in seconds.

[enderlord99]

Hulk looks at tank. Hulk wants to smash the tank, but not the people inside it.

Hulk sees in his mind's eye the exact equations needed to calculate exactly how much force he needs to exert and which part of the tank to hit from what angle to do that.

Those equations in his mind's eye solve themselves.

Hulk know knows how to smash the tank without smashing the people inside.

This all happened in seconds.

Those aren't equations. "Equations" are fake.

I don't know what you're not getting here.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I hadn't heard of either, so I guess I just met my 'learn something new today' quota.

[Peelee]

Further, Hulk perceiving the world in numbers is meaningless - numbers are data, raw figures with no meaning themselves. Math is the process of turning data into information. If Hulk thinks in numbers, but can't do math, then thinking in numbers is completely useless to him and carries absolutely zero significance or meaning. It's technobabble, no different than The Doctor reversing the polarity so they can time travel into the wormhole. Saying a bunch of science-sounding things just because of how it sounds doesn't really do anything, and that's what "he thinks in numbers" is when they claim he can't do basic algebra but thinks in numbers.

Second, even ignoring that, the whole point is "hulk can do X because he thinks in numbers", as contrasted to "all life can do X and do not think in numbers," so that cannot be true of Hulk.

Again, writers can write whatever they want, but if the next issue of Hulk has H₂O(l) - - heat--> H₂O(g) and claims that formula is an example of the gravimetric constant, that does not make it so. I'm usually the first one to board the "if it's written that X is the case, then in this world X is the case" train, but there are limits.

[LaZodiac]

I will also translocate my post here...

Okay, got it.

Night-magic. I was still brainstorming root words related to darkness and shadow. It's Latin, though because I know piss all about ancient Greek (also it should be noctomancy, but come on, why pass on a perfectly serviceable x?)

Hulk would be right. That's not math. Math is a way to modelize the world by reducing it to numbers. What Hulk is doing in that example is the same thing you and I do when, say, scoring a point in basketball. Sure you could modelize what's happening with math but when you do it, you don't use math. You know from experience how much strenght to use to get what result but you're not thinking in tems of newtons or kilograms or watts.

Glad you do! If you want more info, and want to see it in action, you know where to look

Aah, right. Nox is night. Forgot that. God yeah, x's are good to use. Have a good feel to them.

It is unthinking math, if that makes sense. Even if they don't know the exact equations, they are still performing math.

[Peelee]

It is unthinking math, if that makes sense. Even if they don't know the exact equations, they are still performing math.

If you don't know it's math at all, is it still math? Is a bird taking flight from the Mediterranean to cresting over the Alps doing calculus? Or is it flying by feel?

Infants learn to balance without even having the concept of math. They are not doing instinctive math. They are learning what works and what doesn't.

[LaZodiac]

If you don't know it's math at all, is it still math? Is a bird taking flight from the Mediterranean to cresting over the Alps doing calculus? Or is it flying by feel?

Infants learn to balance without even having the concept of math. They are not doing instinctive math. They are learning what works and what doesn't.

It is in fact actually inbuilt math, because if you take a migratory bird somewhere, they know how to get back to where they're supposed to do. Instinctual math is a part of nature, because math is... like, conceptually speaking, it is not a creation of humanity. We came up with ways to describe math, but math is universal and natural.

[Rater202]

Those aren't equations. "Equations" are fake.

I don't know what you're not getting here.

I don't get why people are saying "it doesn't work that way" and "numbers are fake" when I explain that the exaggerated caricature of a genius three-year-old born from a combination of severe mental illness and magic radiation from the depths of Hell literally sees numbers when he looks at anything and can instinctively use those numbers to figure out things that other people would have to work out through trial and error becuase he thinks in math.

Like,I'm not speaking metaphorically. When Amadeus Cho had the Hulk's powers he described being the Hulk as perceiving the World in numbers and thinking in math. One of Bruce's more intelligent alters later confirmed that this was accurate for the original Hulk.

Yeah, it doesn't work that way... For real people. Real people don't know the exact measurements of something just by looking at it but can't put it into words when asked by it.

Real people also can't touch things that have no physical mass, smell concepts, see ghosts, or make sound in a vacuum.

[Jasdoif]

If you don't know it's math at all, is it still math? Is a bird taking flight from the Mediterranean to cresting over the Alps doing calculus? Or is it flying by feel?

Infants learn to balance without even having the concept of math. They are not doing instinctive math. They are learning what works and what doesn't.

This is a case of "it's just like doing the math, but without doing math". A standard format for "instinct, not skill" in general, really. What I think's happening is confusing a representation for the thing it represents, much like the Treachery of Images.

[Fyraltari]

It is in fact actually inbuilt math, because if you take a migratory bird somewhere, they know how to get back to where they're supposed to do.

That has nothing to do with math.

Instinctual math is a part of nature, because math is... like, conceptually speaking, it is not a creation of humanity. We came up with ways to describe math, but math is universal and natural.

No, it isn't. Math is a representation of the world a way to frame it so our minds can process reality. Because it is used to describe universal things it feels universal but it actually is just a representation.

Numbers, much like words only exist in our minds.

[DataNinja]

What if the real treasure was the threads we made on the way?

Well then I'd have two nickels!

Ah, my rewording of the rules lasted five threads!

Casual parlance is great, but I feel like rules should tend towards more precise. So it may have slightly bothered me.

[Tvtyrant]

That has nothing to do with math.

No, it isn't. Math is a representation of the world a way to frame it so our minds can process reality. Because it is used to describe universal things it feels universal but it actually is just a representation.

Numbers, much like words only exist in our minds.

I don't think that is quite accurate to be honest. Things like Vacuum Force were discovered entirely based on mathematical proofs which as I understand were pretty abstract.

[LaZodiac]

That has nothing to do with math.

No, it isn't. Math is a representation of the world a way to frame it so our minds can process reality. Because it is used to describe universal things it feels universal but it actually is just a representation.

Numbers, much like words only exist in our minds.

The human creation known as "the number one" is make believe, but the reality of what it represents is 100% real and solid.

Anyway, last night I had a really strange dream, which I have posted below;

Spoiler: Zodi dreams

Show

I am in my mother's house
I am female bodied and also a yakuza (unsure if good) who can create semi chibi clones of myself (uh...) who is currently creating a bunch to like, keep the house secure.
My grandma is there (she is deceased in real life) and she's talking to me about how talking with some of my friends has helped cheer her up. I'm a little concerned cause I'm not sure if my grandma should be talking to my friends or not.
Also, a stray cat has brought a bunch of kittens to our doorstep to be taken care of by our cat (we don't have a cat)
and Sae Saejima (not real, his name is Taiga Saejima) and Goro Majime from the Yakuza series are outside playing with the cats.

[Fyraltari]

Well then I'd have two nickels!


Casual parlance is great, but I feel like rules should tend towards more precise. So it may have slightly bothered me.

I agree, I was starting to find it weird, to be honest. Plus I was never really happy with it.

I don't think that is quite accurate to be honest. Things like Vacuum Force were discovered entirely based on mathematical proofs which as I understand were pretty abstract.

I don't know anything about that.

[Rater202]

Numbers, much like words only exist in our minds.

In real life, yes. But we're not talking about real life.

Magic exists in the Marvel universe. Strictly speaking, all Superhumans are magic to some degree or another including the Hulk(who, according Thor, is a hairsbreadth away from becoming either a God or a Demon at this point. Thor can't tell which)

Part of Marvel Magic is that ideas—including words and numbers—exist and have power, objectively, just as much as an object made of tangible matter does.

And a fundamental part of the cosmology of the setting is that the "Rational, Scientific" of a phenomenon and the "Mystical, symbolic" explanation are usually both true even when they'd be mutually exclusive.

It doesn't matter that "perceive the world in numbers" isn't how it works, isn't how normal people do it, and makes no sense. It doesn't have to make sense to be true.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, a stray cat has brought a bunch of kittens to our doorstep to be taken care of by our cat (we don't have a cat)

This part sounds pretty normal to me.

*looks at fuzzy interlopers sleeping in the suntangles*

[Peelee]

It is in fact actually inbuilt math, because if you take a migratory bird somewhere, they know how to get back to where they're supposed to do. Instinctual math is a part of nature, because math is... like, conceptually speaking, it is not a creation of humanity. We came up with ways to describe math, but math is universal and natural.

We actually still have no idea how birds do that, but I was talking about flight through a dynamically changing atmospheric pressure/viscosity. Thinner air up by the Matterhorn than above the waters of the Sicilian coast.

Also, so you're on the opinion we discovered math rather than invented it, then?

I don't get why people are saying "it doesn't work that way" and "numbers are fake"]

Nobody has said numbers are fake. I said numbers are data, which are meaningless without context. "6" means nothing. "that person is going 6 miles per hour" means something. But everyone can think like that, it's not a special Hulk thing, and that is based on conscious mathematical knowledge. The more conscious knowledge, the more

This is a case of "it's just like doing the math, but without doing math". A standard format for "instinct, not skill" in general, really. What I think's happening is confusing a representation for the thing it represents, much like the Treachery of Images.

Yeah, I think you've got it right.

[Rater202]

"that person is going 6 miles per hour" means something

Can you tell that someone is going 6 miles an hour with only your naked eye? While also figuring out their exact height, width, depth, volume, weight, and density just by looking at them?

And then crunch those numbers without even having to think about it so you just know how to throw a pebble so that it hits their ankle and makes them trip with no chance of missing and no chance of throwing it to hard and breaking their leg.

With the ease of breathing.

[Peelee]

Can you tell that someone is going 6 miles an hour with only your naked eye? While also figuring out their exact height, width, depth, volume, weight, and density just by looking at them?

And then crunch those numbers without even having to think about it so you just know how to throw a pebble so that it hits their ankle and makes them trip with no chance of missing and no chance of throwing it to hard and breaking their leg.

With the ease of breathing.

If I want to throw a pebble at them and hit them kind of hard but not too hard, then I don't need to know all those things. I also don't need to know math. What you're claiming is required knowledge... isn't. It's as simple as that, really.

[DataNinja]

In real life, yes. But we're not talking about real life.

Magic exists in the Marvel universe. Strictly speaking, all Superhumans are magic to some degree or another including the Hulk(who, according Thor, is a hairsbreadth away from becoming either a God or a Demon at this point. Thor can't tell which)

Part of Marvel Magic is that ideas—including words and numbers—exist and have power, objectively, just as much as an object made of tangible matter does.

And a fundamental part of the cosmology of the setting is that the "Rational, Scientific" of a phenomenon and the "Mystical, symbolic" explanation are usually both true even when they'd be mutually exclusive.

It doesn't matter that "perceive the world in numbers" isn't how it works, isn't how normal people do it, and makes no sense. It doesn't have to make sense to be true.

...I'm just gonna be frank and say that very time Marvel arguments and minutia discussion come up in this thread, my eyes glaze over. Especially since they very often go around and around in circles, for many many pages. Or are just about some overly pedantic thing. And... I feel like that's the same for a lot of people who aren't versed in all of that.

[Anonymouswizard]

Ah, the new thread rush.

I'll be back when it dies down. Or I run a bath, whichever is first.

[Tvtyrant]

Ah, the new thread rush.

I'll be back when it dies down. Or I run a bath, whichever is first.

Isn't the bath what is running and you catch it?

[Peelee]

Isn't the bath what is running and you catch it?

I hope not! I'd much prefer a hot bath and what you're describing sounds like a cold.

[Fyraltari]

I hope not! I'd much prefer a hot bath and what you're describing sounds like a cold.

It's okay, the exercise keeps it warm.