DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

[enderlord99]

I believe they're real. I see it everywhere.

No. You see behavior everywhere, and you might indirectly see morality and ethics everywhere, but not alignment.

[Bartmanhomer]

No. You see behavior everywhere, and you might indirectly see morality and ethics everywhere, but not alignment.

Well if you say so, I'm disappointed. I wish alignment was real.

[enderlord99]

Anyway...

Is it just me, or does moderately-edgy rock-music hit differently after staying up all night?

[Mystic Muse]

Anyway...

Is it just me, or does moderately-edgy rock-music hit differently after staying up all night?

What are you defining as moderately-edgy rock music?

But probably.

[enderlord99]

What are you defining as moderately-edgy rock music?

Currently? This.

It's been labelled "emo" and "metal" but the band at least claims to be rock, and I'll take their word for it.

Previously, it has been (among other things) Hey You by Pink Floyd.

Lots of things with "worm" in the lyrics.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Seems awfully shortsighted to me. Heroes are people too, with all the gigantic-bundle-of-contradictions that entails; and deserve to be treated as such, with all the good and bad that entails.

The point is that part of what makes them heroes is that we only see them as one-dimensional constructs instead of as people. If you can see them as a person, they aren't a hero to you.

I'm not sure I agree with the second half, but it's a common enough occurrence I'm likely wrong.

[halfeye]

That is because you are missing 2 seldom used units: barleycorns and hands. There are 3 barleycorns to an inch, 4 inches to a hand, 3 hands to a foot and 3 feet to a yard.

Hands I know are real, usually only used to measure horses and not combined with feet or yards, thus it is usual to say that a horse is 12 or 16 hands high at the shoulder, which I think is where the neck meets the back. Wikipedia calls that the "withers":

The height of horses is measured at the highest point of the withers, where the neck meets the back.[23] This point is used because it is a stable point of the anatomy, unlike the head or neck, which move up and down in relation to the body of the horse.

In English-speaking countries, the height of horses is often stated in units of hands and inches: one hand is equal to 4 inches (101.6 mm). The height is expressed as the number of full hands, followed by a point, then the number of additional inches, and ending with the abbreviation "h" or "hh" (for "hands high"). Thus, a horse described as "15.2 h" is 15 hands plus 2 inches, for a total of 62 inches (157.5 cm) in height.[24]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#...nd_measurement

I am not half so convinced about barleycorn, there's a traditional song about making beer or maybe whisky "John Barleycorn must die", but I don't remember it being a unit of length. Wikipedia likes it, but then Wikipedia is debatable.

[Jasdoif]

Seems awfully shortsighted to me. Heroes are people too, with all the gigantic-bundle-of-contradictions that entails; and deserve to be treated as such, with all the good and bad that entails.

The point is that part of what makes them heroes is that we only see them as one-dimensional constructs instead of as people. If you can see them as a person, they aren't a hero to you.

I'm not sure I agree with the second half, but it's a common enough occurrence I'm likely wrong.

Yes; insisting heroes must be caricatures of people, instead of people, is indeed the awfully shortsighted part. They aren't heroes because they have no flaws, they're heroes because they didn't let their flaws stop them. And in any case; if you find the hero doesn't live up to the ideals you expected of them, you're better off not conflating the hero with the ideals.

[Lacco]

Yes; insisting heroes must be caricatures of people, instead of people, is indeed the awfully shortsighted part. They aren't heroes because they have no flaws, they're heroes because they didn't let their flaws stop them. And in any case; if you find the hero doesn't live up to the ideals you expected of them, you're better off not conflating the hero with the ideals.

I remember reading a definition of a hero somewhere... it was something along the lines of "A hero is not more courageous. He is courageous 5 minutes longer."

I liked that definition

[Rogar Demonblud]

Honestly, heroes probably exist solely as a stand in for the ideals. So it may well be impossible to separate them.

And halfeye, you snark at Steve Winwood at your own peril.

[Anonymouswizard]

Out of session campaign discussions, they really are a thing of beauty.

You begin at discussing the mechanics of creating a quick-deploy Waystone, and therefore making the elves go from 'annoyed you're asking us about them' to 'what are you doing with the sacred obect', and end up at 'farm wizard is probably an in-universe slur for the Jade College'.

[Jasdoif]

Honestly, heroes probably exist solely as a stand in for the ideals. So it may well be impossible to separate them.

Ideals are bereft of action. They are goals without pursuit, destinations without travel, packages without delivery, ideas without execution, designs without implementation.

Heroes act on their ideals, and accomplish what they represent. That's why they exist: Because an ideal that's never pursued isn't worth the fleck of electrons that represent it in on a server somewhere. And that is why it's shortsighted to not accept that heroes are people: Because people can be heroes, and that's why ideals have a place in the world.

[halfeye]

And halfeye, you snark at Steve Winwood at your own peril.

Steve Winwood? I'm seeing Robbie Burns quoted as "not the originator" on Wikipedia. I was merely saying I knew of the song, but not of the measure of length.

"John Barleycorn" is an English folk song[1] (Roud 164). The character of John Barleycorn in the song is a personification of the important cereal crop barley and of the alcoholic beverages made from it, beer and whisky.

...

Kathleen Herbert draws a link between the mythical figure Beowa (a figure stemming from Anglo-Saxon paganism that appears in early Anglo-Saxon royal genealogies whose name means "barley") and the figure of John Barleycorn. Herbert says that Beowa and Barleycorn are one and the same, noting that the folksong details the suffering, death, and resurrection of Barleycorn, yet also celebrates the "reviving effects of drinking his blood".

...

Countless versions of this song exist. A Scottish poem with a similar theme, "Quhy Sowld Nocht Allane Honorit Be", is included in the Bannatyne Manuscript of 1568 and English broadside versions from the 17th century are common. Robert Burns published his own version in 1782, and modern versions abound. Burns's version makes the tale somewhat mysterious and, although not the original, it became the model for most subsequent versions of the ballad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barleycorn

[Rogar Demonblud]

"John Barleycorn" is an English folk song. "John Barleycorn Must Die" is an album by Traffic that started as a solo album by Winwood.

[Rater202]

Weird confession time: When I was a kid, I studied really hard hoping that if I got smart enough I'd get psychic powers.

[Bartmanhomer]

Weird confession time: When I was a kid, I studied really hard hoping that if I got smart enough I'd get psychic powers.

Even the greatest minds possessed psychic powers. I can name one. The Brain in DC comics. He's sort of possessing psychic powers.

[Anonymouswizard]

Weird confession time: When I was a kid, I studied really hard hoping that if I got smart enough I'd get psychic powers.

Silly Rater. I remember reading a book that explained that they come from a lack of study.

[Rater202]

Silly Rater. I remember reading a book that explained that they come from a lack of study.

Roald Dahl stories aren't exactly based in reality, Anonymouswizard.

[sktarq]

Ideals are bereft of action. They are goals without pursuit, destinations without travel, packages without delivery, ideas without execution, designs without implementation.

Heroes act on their ideals, and accomplish what they represent. That's why they exist: Because an ideal that's never pursued isn't worth the fleck of electrons that represent it in on a server somewhere. And that is why it's shortsighted to not accept that heroes are people: Because people can be heroes, and that's why ideals have a place in the world.

Meh there is a philosophical argument that the hero isn't the person doing the "heroic act" but the image of the person that the outsider who considers that person a hero that exists in said outsiders head.
Basically the mental image people have is the hero not the actual person with whom that image in theory correlates.

As such they become personifications of whatever people hang on their image. We do this with villains too. And celebrities. And quite people in our own lives who exist at some distance (grandparents, ex-romantic partners, etc).

One of the reasons heroes and villains work so well as allegorical figures IMO.

But very unhealthy for the treatment of the human being who gets confused with the image in the head of other people. The treatment is rarely good in terms of authentic personal connects, mental health, and often physical health for the person in question (be they considered an outsider, or a threat (burn the heretic! witch! insert villain of the day), hero, romantic ideal, or movie star). Makes me think of the Rita Hayworth quote "Every man I knew went to bed with Gilda... and woke up with me." (the exact wording varies in google but close). It's Gilda that is the "hero" in this case..a mental idea of a person who hold various emotional and idealistic connections in the head of said men (in this example).

Also why it is so much easier to treat the dead this way...they can't come a pop the mental bubble.

[Anonymouswizard]

Roald Dahl stories aren't exactly based in reality, Anonymouswizard.

Oh yeah, likwe you've never met a giant cricket.

I remember seeing James with a giant peach in real life. But then again, he did spend a lot of time on Tinder

[Jasdoif]

Meh there is a philosophical argument that the hero isn't the person doing the "heroic act" but the image of the person that the outsider who considers that person a hero that exists in said outsiders head.
Basically the mental image people have is the hero not the actual person with whom that image in theory correlates.

That argument applies to all people, and heroes are people; yes.

[sktarq]

That argument applies to all people, and heroes are people; yes.

I'd it applies to heroes far more than most people. They take this effect to extremes. Hell you don't even need the actual human to even be real and I think that really proves my point far more. That the thing that makes them a hero is in the minds of the people who give them that status rather in anything they actually do.

[Jasdoif]

I'd it applies to heroes far more than most people. They take this effect to extremes. Hell you don't even need the actual human to even be real and I think that really proves my point far more. That the thing that makes them a hero is in the minds of the people who give them that status rather in anything they actually do.

Hmm....In that case, the aforementioned "don't meet your heroes" suggests deliberately maintaining such extremes in situations where it could make a difference (fictional characters are by definition only as established as far as creators have chosen to establish them, and meeting them isn't going to change that even if it's somehow possible). Certainly seems shortsighted to me.

I think it was Thoreau who said "the fault finder will find faults, even in paradise"? In a day and age where it's easy to find stupid/disgusting things people have said, over a decade after the fact, it's so much easier to find out that real heroes have always been flawed; like the people they are. Continuing to believe heroes need to be flawless is that much closer to believing heroes can't really exist. Which, you know, is sad all around.

[Mystic Muse]

Weird confession time: When I was a kid, I studied really hard hoping that if I got smart enough I'd get psychic powers.

I thought lots of kids tried to develop psychic powers.

Certainly most of the ones that watched Star Wars anyway.

[halfeye]

"John Barleycorn" is an English folk song. "John Barleycorn Must Die" is an album by Traffic that started as a solo album by Winwood.

It's also the main theme of the traditional folk song:

Burns's version runs:

There was three kings unto the east,
Three kings both great and high,
And they hae sworn a solemn oath
John Barleycorn should die.

Many more verses follow, but that's the first.

[Bartmanhomer]

I thought lots of kids tried to develop psychic powers.

Certainly most of the ones that watched Star Wars anyway.

Or even Pokemon.

[Peelee]

I thought lots of kids tried to develop psychic powers.

Certainly most of the ones that watched Star Wars anyway.

I watched Star Wars and as a result I'm still trying to!

[Rockphed]

I watched Star Wars and as a result I'm still trying to!

Well you could just There is no mind control citizen, return to your fun.

I will go back to my fun.

My favorite poem right now is "Curfew must not ring tonight", partially because Katherine Hepburn recites a big part of it during the climactic scene of "Desk Set" to great effect. Anyway, the talk of "John Barleycorn must Die" made me think of that.

Then there is "John Tucker Must Die". I wonder if it is based on the song in some way.

[Rater202]

Star Wars is more like magic than the pop-culture depiction of psychic powers.

You're a space monk or a hermit or a dark sorcerer, by training and meditating to control your emotions/ride out your passions you can move things with your mind, befuddle people's senses and implant suggestions in their thoughts, conjure lightning, manipulate the weather, heal people, achieve a form of immortality, and in Legends make fire and strengthen your mind and will be going on a spirit quest and murdering the frack out of the embodiments of your regrets.

you can learn multible force tricks.

With psychic powers It's more that it's an inherent thing: Once you have it, you have it. You can get better and more versatile at the one or two tricks you have but you'll only have those one or two tricks unless something happens to make more show up.

[LaZodiac]

Silly Rater. I remember reading a book that explained that they come from a lack of study.

Roald Dahl stories aren't exactly based in reality, Anonymouswizard.

Y'all Matilda had psionic powers because she wasn't being challenged in school. You don't WANT psychic powers, it means you're so ****ing bored your brain is literally leaking out into the world.

... jokes aside I'd love to have psionic abilities, and have definitely pretended/tried to develop them.