DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

[Rater202]

At 9Pm last night, there was a small, maybe foot high, bank of know on the side of our driveway from my stepfather plowing it.

As of right now, not only does the driveway look unplowed, but the bank created by the plowing is three feet tall.

There is at least a foot of snow as far as the eye can see, and our front porch and the bushes in the garden are completly buried.

(Luckily, we only use the front door when decorating the front yard for holidays.)

[Peelee]

We are about to join you on that nightmarish landscape. Already the snow is sticking. STICKING! Terror reigns. The end is upon us.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: THE WHITE DEATH IS UPON US

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The appropriate course of action is to panic.

"You are in the bullet's way! The White Death's prey! Say good bye!"

And now I'm going to spend the entire day listening to Sabaton.

I am fine with this.

[Rater202]

Oh please, this is nothing.

A few years ago, the weather was so bad that I was an hour late to an hour and a half long class.

Then classes were canceled right as I managed to cross the entire campus to get to my other class.

Food chemistry was a fun and informative class but I did not sign up for any other classes in that building.

[Peelee]

It's really coming down now. You can almost not even see the grass anymore.

[Form]

It's really coming down now. You can almost not even see the grass anymore.

Pfeh, who needs grass anyway!?

[Lacco]

Pfeh, who needs grass anyway!?

I dunno. Cattle?

Oh, I miss a proper winter. This feels rather strange - it's freezing outside, but almost no snow (you can almost see grass sometimes).

2013 was a good year - we went to play RPGs for 4 days to a rented cabin. Half of the group got stranded due to their car breaking down half way (we arranged for a tow truck & emergency lodgings for them).

In the morning we were greeted with the sight below.

Spoiler: 2013 Novot

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It was a good year for gaming.

[Rater202]

I like the idea of hive minds, mind hives, fusion, and symbiosis but at the same time find that I wouldn't want to be in any of those situations unless I was the dominant partner is such a collective and any other sapient members shared my views and opinions(or at least had compatible ones.)

Which I think makes me a hypocrite: I like the idea of forming a symbiotic collective super-organism but don't want to sacrifice my own individuality.

[Anonymouswizard]

So the Black Rabbit of Inle will soon be coming to Birmingham?

[enderlord99]

I like the idea of hive minds, mind hives, fusion, and symbiosis but at the same time find that I wouldn't want to be in any of those situations unless I was the dominant partner is such a collective and any other sapient members shared my views and opinions(or at least had compatible ones.)

Which I think makes me a hypocrite: I like the idea of forming a symbiotic collective super-organism but don't want to sacrifice my own individuality.

Retaining your own personality as a distinct entity which is also part of another, larger, entity sounds ideal, to me.

The best part is, we may already be there. It's called "society."

[Cazero]

Pfeh, who needs grass anyway!?

Says the guy with a pony avatar.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's really coming down now. You can almost not even see the grass anymore.

Pssh, nothing. We sometimes get half a meter at a go.

Seriously, grab a blanket to stay warm with and leave the thermostat alone. Seems the first thing people down south do when it gets cold is crank the heat to 80 and blow the power grid. 68 is fine, and if you still feel chilly use the blanket (possibly in conjunction with your Special Somepony).

[Fyraltari]

I like the idea of hive minds, mind hives, fusion, and symbiosis but at the same time find that I wouldn't want to be in any of those situations unless I was the dominant partner is such a collective and any other sapient members shared my views and opinions(or at least had compatible ones.)

Which I think makes me a hypocrite: I like the idea of forming a symbiotic collective super-organism but don't want to sacrifice my own individuality.

Everybody supports democracy until the majority disagrees with them.

[Form]

I like the idea of hive minds, mind hives, fusion, and symbiosis but at the same time find that I wouldn't want to be in any of those situations unless I was the dominant partner is such a collective and any other sapient members shared my views and opinions(or at least had compatible ones.)

Which I think makes me a hypocrite: I like the idea of forming a symbiotic collective super-organism but don't want to sacrifice my own individuality.

I think a hive mind wouldn't really have a dominant partner? Though for other arrangements it might differ. I'd be willing to try it out, just as long as I can get out again after having had my fill, though I imagine that getting out would be a problem.

[Anonymouswizard]

Everybody supports democracy until the majority disagrees with them.

Oh, there's so many examples we could use.

Anyway, I'm not sure humans are and to comprehend what societies entail. I often lose track of where I am when counting to a hundred, there's no way I can fathom what a million people is actually like. My school had a thousand students, and I knew maybe twenty. Humans don't understand what human society is, because our brains aren't designed for that scale (similar when getting across to people just how much space is up there).

Humans are pack animals that one day decided to make really large packs. There was a tone when a hundred humans would be a lot in one place, now we try to act in groups of millions (to, in the most extreme cases, billions).

[Rater202]

The best part is, we may already be there. It's called "society."

Modern society is a poor substitute for a living armor that cloaks you in warmth and safety, a partner, friend, or sidekick who is never out of reach, or a dozen sets of eyes and hands with which to make hard tasks simple.

[Peelee]

Pssh, nothing. We sometimes get half a meter at a go.

Seriously, grab a blanket to stay warm with and leave the thermostat alone. Seems the first thing people down south do when it gets cold is crank the heat to 80 and blow the power grid. 68 is fine, and if you still feel chilly use the blanket (possibly in conjunction with your Special Somepony).

70 stays at 70 pretty easily. Anyway, I brought in firewood stacked about twice as high as the holder is supposed to hold and chopped up a lot of kindling. Had it going a few hours now.

[Jasdoif]

Modern society is a poor substitute for a living armor that cloaks you in warmth and safety, a partner, friend, or sidekick who is never out of reach, or a dozen sets of eyes and hands with which to make hard tasks simple.

And that won't feel bad about removing cancerous cells from your body, any more than it would about killing you for the benefit of whatever happens to be the collective's interest at the time.

[Rater202]

And that won't feel bad about removing cancerous cells from your body, any more than it would about killing you for the benefit of whatever happens to be the collective's interest at the time.

Hence, being the dominant partner in the collective. The hive-queen, the central processing unit, the primary host, the brains of the operation. The part that it can't function without.

[Jasdoif]

Hence, being the dominant partner in the collective. The hive-queen, the central processing unit, the primary host, the brains of the operation. The part that it can't function without.

Right; you're the biggest threat to the collective because any stupid self-destructive decisions you might make would be carried out.

[Anonymouswizard]

Funny how nobody's ever the drone bee. Buzz buzz buzz.

My portal fantasy fantasies don't end with me becoming monarch of the realm, but generally a tenured wizard at some sort of magic university.

[Rater202]

Right; you're the biggest threat to the collective because any stupid self-destructive decisions you might make would be carried out.

And yet, the collective turning on me would be more self than anything I could do, short of active attempts at suicide.

Assuming that the collective is even capable of acting against my will or best interests.

[Jasdoif]

And yet, the collective turning on me would be more self than anything I could do, short of active attempts at suicide.

Unless it's not...or rather, unless the risk looks like it's worth it.

Assuming that the collective is even capable of acting against my will or best interests.

If it's nothing more than an extension of your will, it isn't a "collective"; any more than the cells comprising your body are.

That seems like a better model for a super-organism, honestly....Having hyperdeveloped parallel cognitive abilities so you can actually be the multiple people you're wanting concurrently, instead of some sort of master slaver.

[Rater202]

Unless it's not...or rather, unless the risk looks like it's worth it.

The risk is "the system shuts down and possibly everything in it dies."

That's almost never worth it.

If it's nothing more than an extension of your will, it isn't a "collective"; any more than the cells comprising your body are.

That seems like a better model for a super-organism, honestly....Having hyperdeveloped parallel cognitive abilities so you can actually be the multiple people you're wanting concurrently, instead of some sort of master slaver.

Every tree, grass, bush, fern, and fungus in a forest is its own distinct organism, yet the symbiotic fungi that feed on and connect their roots and mycelia and facilitate the exchange of nutrients and information between them allow them to function as individual organs as part of a greater super-organism.

Rev a chainsaw on one end of the first and the trees on the other side will react to it.

Remove the symbiotic fungus, and the entire system breaks down.

So, what happens if the symbiotic fungus is able to think for itself?

Meanwhile, parallel cognition runs into the problem that unless every unit is backing up everything every individual is doing and each one is both sending and receiving signals independently of each other, taking out one unit permanently lessens the collective: Units can be replaced, but that individual unit's knowledge and memories and perspectives are forever lost to the collective except, if you're lucky, in the form of compressed and distorted memories in the mind of other units.

And then unless you can prove the existence of souls, the existential nightmare of Theseus' ship comes into play: Even if your memories are perfectly copied among all units down to the exact second of death, once your original body is destroyed it becomes hard to definitively state that the collective is the "real" you.

[Anonymouswizard]

I believe that insect colonies do have regular attempted coups, which can go as far as everybody leaving the site.

So yeah, being queen bee is no way to make yourself safe at the centre even with mind linkage (and bare in mind most real world 'hive minds' communicate through what is essentially their version of speech and writing). Especially when another hive queen emerges from the shadows, probably created by those drones who are you acting for your own desires and not the good of the colony.

[Tvtyrant]

Also you replace your brain cells, which are themselves descended from colonies of independent organisms that have become so dependent they have become utterly reliant on each other. Which are themselves made of multiple bacteria that are so dependent on each other that they cannot function independently (IE mitochondria are bacteria inside of your bigger bacteria.)

As your brain cells get replaced they copy your memories, and like the ship you actually aren't you.

[Jasdoif]

The risk is "the system shuts down and possibly everything in it dies."

That's almost never worth it.

"Almost" being the key word.

Every tree, grass, bush, fern, and fungus in a forest is its own distinct organism, yet the symbiotic fungi that feed on and connect their roots and mycelia and facilitate the exchange of nutrients and information between them allow them to function as individual organs as part of a greater super-organism.

Rev a chainsaw on one end of the first and the trees on the other side will react to it.

Remove the symbiotic fungus, and the entire system breaks down.

So, what happens if the symbiotic fungus is able to think for itself?

Hmm....Depending on the ability of the fungus to act on its thoughts, it may be able to disconnect more complex organisms, accelerating their death; and then extract nutrients from the decomposition.

It seems like it'd be a bad scenario to be some sort of hive overseer in, as said hive overseer's corpse has additional value as nutrition.

Meanwhile, parallel cognition runs into the problem that unless every unit is backing up everything every individual is doing and each one is both sending and receiving signals independently of each other, taking out one unit permanently lessens the collective: Units can be replaced, but that individual unit's knowledge and memories and perspectives are forever lost to the collective except, if you're lucky, in the form of compressed and distorted memories in the mind of other units.

And then unless you can prove the existence of souls, the existential nightmare of Theseus' ship comes into play: Even if your memories are perfectly copied among all units down to the exact second of death, once your original body is destroyed it becomes hard to definitively state that the collective is the "real" you.

Hmm, I guess I was somewhat vague....I mean there multiple people operating in a single brain; that was the parallel cognitive part I was going for.

[Tvtyrant]

"Almost" being the key word.

Hmm....Depending on the ability of the fungus to act on its thoughts, it may be able to disconnect more complex organisms, accelerating their death; and then extract nutrients from the decomposition.

It seems like it'd be a bad scenario to be some sort of hive overseer in, as said hive overseer's corpse has additional value as nutrition.

Hmm, I guess I was somewhat vague....I mean there multiple people operating in a single brain; that was the parallel cognitive part I was going for.

I've worked off and on about a cult that uses bluetooth devices to sync their subconsciousness. The premise is based off of studies that show you make decisions and then retroactively justify them to yourself so smooth over and disjunction between impulses and consciousness. So they all make decisions as a collective, but they interpret them and retroactively explain them to themselves as being individual choices.

[Rater202]

I believe that insect colonies do have regular attempted coups, which can go as far as everybody leaving the site.

So yeah, being queen bee is no way to make yourself safe at the centre even with mind linkage (and bare in mind most real world 'hive minds' communicate through what is essentially their version of speech and writing). Especially when another hive queen emerges from the shadows, probably created by those drones who are you acting for your own desires and not the good of the colony.

We're not talking about Queen Bee's, we're talking about....

I compared it to a forest superorganism for a reason: The forest superorganism is essentially a single unified nervous system. In an arrangement like that, an individual unit can no more lead a coup against the most vital components than your finger can rebel against your brain.

Also you replace your brain cells, which are themselves descended from colonies of independent organisms that have become so dependent they have become utterly reliant on each other. Which are themselves made of multiple bacteria that are so dependent on each other that they cannot function independently (IE mitochondria are bacteria inside of your bigger bacteria.)

As your brain cells get replaced they copy your memories, and like the ship you actually aren't you.

There's continuity between your brain now and your brain 20 years ago, you haven't replaced the entire brain all at once.

That doesn't apply if the brain that's thinking "your" thoughts just stops thinking entirely. Your thoughts no exist in other brains that are thinking their own thoughts, "you" no longer exist as anything but memory.

[Anonymouswizard]

We're not talking about Queen Bee's, we're talking about....

Something with no analog in the task world, and therefore we're going to all be leaping to what we personally identify the terms with?

Even in a forest as macroorganism terms there's communication going on in the plant's usual methods. It's also arguably a terrible analogy in this case, there is no centre, no Queen Forest, just a lot of drones doing specialised jobs. Heck on this scale we could possibly deviate an entire ant species to be one 'unit'