DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: You mean this?

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Offroad scootering at its finest! Reminds me of those tank tread motorcycles from the 1930s.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yes. But an hour in 80-degree weather is an hour in 80-degree weather.

That's the point I'm making. The humidity of lack thereof doesn't change the heat. If heat is unbearable then it's unbearable.

What changes is the rest of the environment, and whether you can handle heat in that enviornement depends on what kind of environment you're used to.

To be fair, if it's only twenty degrees from water boiling you might have bigger problems than humidity

Here in London it's a lovely warm 282 Kelvins.

[Peelee]

To be fair, if it's only twenty degrees from water boiling you might have bigger problems than humidity

No joke that's why I changed my reply from 20 degrees to 0 degrees.

Here in London it's a lovely warm 282 Kelvins.

A.) that is freezing, I tells ya!
2.) I get why you people say "maths" but I'm pretty certain Kelvin should still be singular.

[Rater202]

To be fair, if it's only twenty degrees from water boiling you might have bigger problems than humidity

Here in London it's a lovely warm 282 Kelvins.

Water boils at 212 F, which is 132 degrees higher than 80, not 20.

This is my fault, I didn't specify, but still.

The point is that continuous exposure to unbearable heat is going to have the effects of continuous exposure to unbearable heat regardless of the moisture in the air.

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: You mean this?

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Awesome.

I get why you people say "maths" but I'm pretty certain Kelvin should still be singular.

There's more than one Kelvin!

The point is that continuous exposure to unbearable heat is going to have the effects of continuous exposure to unbearable heat regardless of the moisture in the air.

Continuous exposure to the same high temperature but different humidity levels will have very different effects on your body.

[Rater202]

Continuous exposure to the same high temperature but different humidity levels will have very different effects on your body.

Yes. BEcuase of the different enviornment and your response to those effects is based on what environment your body is used to.

People talk about dry heat like it's magically colder than humid heat but it's not. 80 degrees F is just as hot in the desert as it is in the rain forest.

[Fyraltari]

A.) that is freezing, I tells ya!
2.) I get why you people say "maths" but I'm pretty certain Kelvin should still be singular.

While Lord Kelvin require no more "s" than his esteemes peers Newton or Volta, the humble kelvins, newtons and volts are mere units who are content being pluralized lile their among the grams, metres or seconds.

[Rawhide]

Yes. BEcuase of the different enviornment and your response to those effects is based on what environment your body is used to.

People talk about dry heat like it's magically colder than humid heat but it's not. 80 degrees F is just as hot in the desert as it is in the rain forest.

Your body's ability to regulate its internal body heat is highly dependant on the humidity. In a dry heat, your internal body temperature will remain lower. In a humid heat, your body heat will be higher. In high enough humidity, your body will fail to regulate its internal body heat entirely. You will die.

[Anonymouswizard]

No joke that's why I changed my reply from 20 degrees to 0 degrees.

A.) that is freezing, I tells ya!
2.) I get why you people say "maths" but I'm pretty certain Kelvin should still be singular.

Yeah, the use of two commonly used measurement systems for temperature referred to as degrees is overly confusing. Hence a personal preference fore Kelving.

a) Maybe to somebody who lives within a few diameters of the sun.
II) All other SI units that I can think of pluralise with an s. Therefore Kelvins,

[Peelee]

While Lord Kelvin require no more "s" than his esteemes peers Newton or Volta, the humble kelvins, newtons and volts are mere units who are content being pluralized lile their among the grams, metres or seconds.

On the one hand, CERN disagrees. On the other, I didn't know that and have no idea why I thought that was the standard.

[Rawhide]

All other SI units that I can think of pluralise with an s. Therefore Kelvins,

It's not plural, the plural part is degrees.

i.e.

The 10th Conférence Générale des Poids et Mesures decides to define the thermodynamic temperature scale by choosing the triple point of water as the fundamental fixed point, and assigning to it the temperature 273.16 degrees Kelvin, exactly.

https://www.bipm.org/utils/common/pd...chure-9-EN.pdf

[Peelee]

It's not plural, the plural part is degrees.

i.e.

https://www.bipm.org/utils/common/pd...chure-9-EN.pdf

Kelvin is an absolute scale and doesn't use degrees. Supposedly.

[Rawhide]

Kelvin is an absolute scale and doesn't use degrees. Supposedly.

That was literally a quote from "9th edition of the SI Brochure (2019), which defines and presents the Système International d'Unités, the SI (known in English as the International System of Units)" by "the intergovernmental organization through which Member States act together on matters related to measurement science and measurement standards".

P.S. The document contains the word "kelvin" 87 times, and "kelvins" 0 times.

[Fyraltari]

On the one hand, CERN disagrees. On the other, I didn't know that and have no idea why I thought that was the standard.

Source?

It's not plural, the plural part is degrees.

i.e.

https://www.bipm.org/utils/common/pd...chure-9-EN.pdf

That was 1954, if you scroll down on the very same document you get:

SI unit of thermodynamic temperature (kelvin) (CR, 104 and Metrologia, 1968, 4, 43)

Resolution 3

The 13th Conférence Générale des Poids et Mesures (CGPM),
considering
•the names “degree Kelvin” and “degree”, the symbols “°K” and “deg” and the rules for their use given in Resolution 7 of the 9th CGPM (1948), in Resolution 12 of the 11th CGPM (1960), and the decision taken by the Comité International des Poids et Mesures in 1962 (PV, 30, 27),
•that the unit of thermodynamic temperature and the unit of temperature interval are one and the same unit, which ought to be denoted by a single name and a single symbol,
decides
1. the unit of thermodynamic temperature is denoted by the name “kelvin” and its symbol is “K”;**
2. the same name and the same symbol are used to express a temperature interval;
3. a temperature interval may also be expressed in degrees Celsius;
4. the decisions mentioned in the opening paragraph concerning the name of the unit of thermo-dynamic temperature, its symbol and the designation of the unit to express an interval or a difference of temperatures are abrogated, but the usages which derive from these decisions remain permissible for the time being.

I can't find a specific paragraph stting that "the time being" has ended, but neverthemess, it is more correct to say "kelvins" than "degrees Kelvin" SI-wise.

EDIT:

That was literally a quote from "9th edition of the SI Brochure (2019), which defines and presents the Système International d'Unités, the SI (known in English as the International System of Units)" by "the intergovernmental organization through which Member States act together on matters related to measurement science and measurement standards".

P.S. The document contains the word "kelvin" 87 times, and "kelvins" 0 times.

That's because this document doesn't really have to talk about kelvins, just about the concept of "kelvin".

And when they do use multiple kelvins, they're more likely to use the unit symbol K (as is 1000K) they have a section on this too:

5. 3 Unit names
Unit names are normally printed in upright type and they are treated like ordinary nouns. In English, the names of units start with a lower-case letter (even when the symbol for the unit begins with a capital letter), except at the beginning of a sentence or in capitalized material such as a title. In keeping with this rule, the correct spelling of the name of the unit with the symbol °C is “degree Celsius” (the unit degree begins with a lower-case d and the modifier Celsius begins with an upper-case C because it is a proper name).

Although the values of quantities are normally expressed using symbols for numbers and symbols for units, if for some reason the unit name is more appropriate than the unit symbol, the unit name should be spelled out in full.

When the name of a unit is combined with the name of a multiple or sub-multiple prefix, no space or hyphen is used between the prefix name and the unit name. The combination of prefix name and unit name is a single word (see chapter 3).

When the name of a derived unit is formed from the names of individual units by juxtaposition, either a space or a hyphen is used to separate the names of the individual units.

[Rawhide]

I can't find a specific paragraph stting that "the time being" has ended, but neverthemess, it is more correct to say "kelvins" than "degrees Kelvin" SI-wise.

Just because "degrees" was dropped, doesn't mean that kelvin becomes plural. I know that it is more correct to say "200 kelvin" now.

Yes, language evolves based on misuse. When misuse becomes common enough, it becomes correct. This means that "kelvins" is not incorrect. Using just "kelvin" is still the correct form in scientific fields, though.

kelvin noun
(abbreviation K)

(plural kelvin or kelvins)
The plural kelvin is preferred in scientific language.

1. a unit for measuring temperature. One kelvin is equal in size to one degree Celsius, but the Kelvin scale starts at absolute zero and water freezes at 273.15 kelvin.

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionari...english/kelvin

[Fyraltari]

Just because "degrees" was dropped, doesn't mean that kelvin becomes plural. I know that it is more correct to say "200 kelvin" now.

Yes, language evolves based on misuse. When misuse becomes common enough, it becomes correct. This means that "kelvins" is not incorrect. Using just "kelvin" is still the correct form in scientific fields, though.


https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionari...english/kelvin

I have edited my post to include another quote that states that unit names are to be treated like normal English nouns.

[Rawhide]

I have edited my post to include another quote that states that unit names are to be treated like normal English nouns.

I have edited my post to include the full entry (sans pronunciation) from Oxford. I accidentally left off the definition.

[Fyraltari]

I have edited my post to include the full entry (sans pronunciation) from Oxford. I accidentally left off the definition.

Right, so we agree that in common parlance "kelvin" and "kelvins" (and even "degrees Kelvin" if we don't feel like starting an argument) are acceptable, but in terms of scientific litterature, "kelvins" is the correct one?

[Rawhide]

Right, so we agree that in common parlance "kelvin" and "kelvins" (and even "degrees Kelvin" if we don't feel like starting an argument) are acceptable

Correct.

but in terms of scientific litterature, "kelvins" is the correct one?

You mean "kelvin", correct?

[Fyraltari]

.You mean "kelvin", correct?

No.

Unit names are normally printed in upright type and they are treated like ordinary nouns.

Ordinary English nouns are pluralized by adding an "s" at the end. Making "kelvin" an invariant would make it an exception which is the opposite of an "ordinary noun".

[Peelee]

That was literally a quote from "9th edition of the SI Brochure (2019), which defines and presents the Système International d'Unités, the SI (known in English as the International System of Units)" by "the intergovernmental organization through which Member States act together on matters related to measurement science and measurement standards".

I noticed the URL in the first post, which was what got me to add "supposedly".

Source?

Best I can do.

[Rawhide]

No.

Ordinary English nouns are pluralized by adding an "s" at the end. Making "kelvin" an invariant would make it an exception which is the opposite of an "ordinary noun".

You seem to be mistaking what an ordinary noun is. It has nothing to do with pluralisation.

Ordinary (or common) nouns are contrasted to (and essentially the opposite of) proper nouns. Fyraltari is a proper noun, it refers to you. You don't say "a Fyraltari". But sheep is an ordinary noun, it is a noun that denotes any member, or all members, of a class. You can say "a sheep", "five sheep" or "all sheep".

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yes. But an hour in 80-degree weather is an hour in 80-degree weather.

That's the point I'm making. The humidity of lack thereof doesn't change the heat. If heat is unbearable then it's unbearable.

What changes is the rest of the environment, and whether you can handle heat in that environment depends on what kind of environment you're used to.

Rater, you might want to study up on a thing called The Heat Index. Humidity is a force multiplier for the effects of temperature (as is wind speed, but it's rare to have to deal with that in summer).

[Rater202]

Rater, you might want to study up on a thing called The Heat Index. Humidity is a force multiplier for the effects of temperature (as is wind speed, but it's rare to have to deal with that in summer).

I guarantee you that if I plucked two average people from northern Canada, put on the equator in the middle of summer with one in a desert and one in a rainforest and came back a day later they'd be suffering from more or less equal heatstrokes.

But that's beside the point. If you're used to a humid environment, dry heat is going to be harder to bear than humid heat.

Dry heat is not objectively more bearable than humid heat. It's subjective.

[Rawhide]

I guarantee you that if I plucked two average people from northern Canada, put on the equator in the middle of summer with one in a desert and one in a rainforest and came back a day later they'd be suffering from more or less equal heatstrokes.

But that's beside the point. If you're used to a humid environment, dry heat is going to be harder to bear than humid heat.

Dry heat is not objectively more bearable than humid heat. It's subjective.

Ok, imagine this.

You are on the coast. Temperatures are up to 30c, with high humidity. You hop on a plane, you get out of the plane and the temperature exceeds 40c, but is incredibly low humidity.

The first thing you will notice is the heat. You will notice that it is much hotter as that wave of heat blows over you after departing from the air-conditioned plane (rural airport, you get straight off the plane onto the tarmac).

But your body will quickly adjust. You find that you can function for far longer in 40c+ (even if your body has never experienced such high temperatures before) than you can in 30c- because your body can regulate its own internal temperature far better. You can feel that the air is hotter, but it doesn't affect you as much, and your own body feels cooler (because it is).

Worse, in high humidity, when your body is failing to lower its temperature, do you know what it does? It sweats more! So you will actually dehydrate faster.

If you think that's an oddly specific example, it's because it is. That example is literally from my own experience. But, don't take my word for it.

[Rater202]

Ok, imagine this.

You are on the coast. Temperatures are up to 30c, with high humidity. You hop on a plane, you get out of the plane and the temperature exceeds 40c, but is incredibly low humidity.

The first thing you will notice is the heat. You will notice that it is much hotter as that wave of heat blows over you after departing from the air-conditioned plane (rural airport, you get straight off the plane onto the tarmac).

But your body will quickly adjust. You find that you can function for far longer in 40c+ (even if your body has never experienced such high temperatures before) than you can in 30c- because your body can regulate its own internal temperature far better. You can feel that the air is hotter, but it doesn't affect you as much, and your own body feels cooler (because it is).

Worse, in high humidity, when your body is failing to lower its temperature, do you know what it does? It sweats more! So you will actually dehydrate faster.

If you think that's an oddly specific example, it's because it is. That example is literally from my own experience. But, don't take my word for it.

If anecdotes ar permitted, then I just cite my own experiences: Summers where I'm at get to be up to 90 F. It is quite human in the summer.

I once visited Texas during a summer. The temperature averaged about 80.

I literally could not function outside of an air-conditioned room. Because I am used to high humidity, the dry heat while technically cooler felt worse.

It's subjective.

[Rawhide]

If anecdotes ar permitted

That wasn't an anecdote, that was an explanation using an example from experience, backed up with a link to an article explaining it in more detail.

And here's a quote from the article:

If the relative humidity is low, we can feel much cooler than the actual temperature because our sweat evaporates easily, cooling us off. For example, if the air temperature is 75 degrees Fahrenheit (24 degrees Celsius) and the relative humidity is zero percent, the air temperature feels like 69 degrees Fahrenheit (21 C) to our bodies. If the air temperature is 75 degrees Fahrenheit (24 C) and the relative humidity is 100 percent, we feel like it's 80 degrees (27 C) out, and you start praying that you had the air conditioner serviced last fall.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And depending on where in Texas you were, you still have high humidity. Some areas are 90+% all year.

[Peelee]

And depending on where in Texas you were, you still have high humidity. Some areas are 90+% all year.

Aye. Texas is huge.

Speaking strictly for me, dry heat feels better, but humid heat is easier to breathe in. Given the two, I'll take humid every time.

Also, steam rooms are infinitely better than saunas.

[Rater202]

Sometimes I just want to be bigger than everyone else.

You get that? People hurt you for no good reason, if you can even understand their reasons, things meant to protect you don't work, and you just wish "I was so much bigger than everything else that they can never hurt me."

That feeling never really goes away.