DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

[Anonymouswizard]

I very much relate. It happens more often if I withdraw for a day or three. My voice will get croaky...and I just forget words are a think for few seconds. Then I have to get all the parts working together. Mouth movements, throat tension, actually pushing air out of the lungs all at the same damn time. Can take a time or three.

Yeah I get that one, although for me it's more often down to concentrating on something else or being overly or insufficiently emotional. Having everything work right takes effort and concentration.

That I regularly just meow at people doesn't help.

Isn't that just normal human communication?

[Rater202]

In high school, we would periodically be made to just not have our normal lessons for that day and would be forced to write 1-3 pages on some inane, random generic topic as a "literacy test." I think it was twice a year.

That wouldn't be so bad... If it wasn't in literally every class, separate from whatever actual English class we had. (and English was mandatory every semester. Could have just made the English department do that, but no.)

So once, after being given the "where do you see yourself in 10 years" paper in my Geometry class, I was frustrated enough that I just wrote a bitter, sarcastic page about how I didn't know where I'd be in ten years because I can't see the future, answered every question as sarcastically as I could, and spent the rest of the wordcount calling the people who decided to interrupt our math lessons with a writing assignment stupid.

Apparently, whoever was saddled with the job of grading these papers agreed with me because I got an A.

[Rater202]

I mean, it was a literacy test. Whether your opinions about the test were valid or not, your bitter rant was apparently written well enough to verify you as a literate person.

Here's the thing, I went to a school were deviating from the prompt or rubric in any way normally got significant points taken off, even if the prompt was completely irrelevant to what the assignment was checking for.

Like, universally. Things like this were standardized.

I would later fail assignments for doing similar things, so this particular example stands out to me.

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey everyone. Long time no see. Something unexpected and amazing happens to me at Barnes & Noble bookstore today. I went to the cafe to buy Tomato Capsprice Sandwich and a bottle of diet Pepsi until this woman who was also a paying customer asked me "Are you buying this soda?" I said "Yes." She responded by saying "I paid for your soda for you." I said "Wow! Really? Thank you so much!" This was caught by surprise which she was very generous to pay for the soda for me.

[Rater202]

Today I learned that any teacher who says "I dismiss you, not the bell" and tries to hold the entire class after the class period has officially ended is technically breaking the law.

Why do I only learn that the bullcrap myself and others had to deal with is a crime after it's too late for me to use that valuable information.

[Rater202]

What law would they be breaking? At least where I live teachers can't physically stop students from leaving the classroom at any time of day, bell or no bell. But teachers are allowed tell students to stay after the bell as a consequence for misbehavior or as an expectation of respect when the day's work isn't quite done. That's a matter of classroom management and school policy, not a matter of law. A student can always just choose to disregard the teacher and walk out. They might get "in trouble" (academic sanctions, note to parents, etc) but nobody is committing a crime in that situation. They are just breaking normal social decorum.

I was not provided the details, but it's apparently a matter of law that a teacher cannot hold up an entire class for any reason, once the class is officially over(at the bell) anyone who doesn't have a valid reason to held back is supposed to be able to leave without consequence.

Also, the whole point of the bell is that it's a signal that class is over and you need to go to your next class or whatever appointments you have after school is over. It's the teachers who keep the entire class after the bell who are breaking social decorum, not students who leave without being dismissed when the bell rings.

Furthermore, "I dismiss you, not the bell" never occurs ina vacuum. It is universally used by teachers who demand respect(to be treated like an authority) without giving any respect(to be treated like a human being) in return, or who are woefully unprepared or apathetic to the fact that students have more than once class and a limited amount of time to get between them, or who are the kind of person who became an educator because they like o have powers over people who do it.

You never see a good teacher who never finishes the lesson on time and/or insists on making people sit when they're supposed to go to their next class.

[Rater202]

t's not the teachers that have lost control of the classroom doing it in my experiance.

It's teachers who demand absolute control of the classroom.

[Peelee]

Today I learned that any teacher who says "I dismiss you, not the bell" and tries to hold the entire class after the class period has officially ended is technically breaking the law.

Why do I only learn that the bullcrap myself and others had to deal with is a crime after it's too late for me to use that valuable information.

I highly doubt that. First off, laws vary greatly by location, so even if it is a law somewhere (possible), that does not mean it is a law everywhere (significantly unlikely), and does not mean that it is a law where you are (completely unknown likelihood).

Further, just because it is (allegedly) illegal does not make it a crime, and you would very likely have little cause of action even if you were in a place where that was indeed illegal and knew about it.

I completely agree with you on the type of teacher who pulls that line, but it's typically not illegal to be a jackass.

[Rater202]

So today I found out that my family's usual vet misrepresented our dog's medical conditions to downplay a cheaply treatable heart condition while playing up several conditions he may or may not have that are eventually terminal. When we took him a few weeks ago they recommended against treating the potentially terminal conditions becuase at his age the treatments would kill him and suggested we consider euthanasia if his quality of health gets too bad.

He developed a new lethargy but the vet wouldn't call us back so my mother took him to a different vet(who was able to requisition his records from the new vet) and told us that his "untreatable, minor heart murmur" was a perfectly treatable enlarged heart(treatable with medication we can easily afford) and was causing more or less all of the problems we've noticed with him in the last year and that while he might have said potentially terminal conditions they're a minor enough concern at his age. The new vet mentioned that our usual vet had a reputation for pushing euthanasia for older pets.

The dog is on new medication and is already starting to seem better than he's been in months.

But the people who misrepresented what's wrong with him? The ones with a reputation for pushing euthanasia? These are the people we went to when my cat had a stroke... Well, they said she has a stroke. I looked up her symptoms when I first noticed them and "stroke" wasn't on the list of possible conditions. I just took their word that it was a stroke because they're the vet and the only thing I had that contradicted them were panicked google searches.

My cat was almost 20 years old and she was in bad shape when we took her in, but now I'm always going to be second-guessing if I did the right thing and that's Hell.

[Peelee]

Oh jeez, that's terrible. If it makes you feel any better, 20 is incredibly old for a cat so whatever it was, it was still likely life threatening (or QOL threatening) and you probably did do the right thing. I know nothing about this other than the age of the cat, but that's enough for me to figure you were probably in the right regardless of whether or not the vet was.


And I'm really happy your dog is doing better! Here's hoping the new, good vet is around to help for a long time.

[LaZodiac]

My cat was almost 20 years old and she was in bad shape when we took her in, but now I'm always going to be second-guessing if I did the right thing and that's Hell.

You are not at fault for someone misusing power and influence to manipulate you. This monster in human skin is at fault, not you. And your cat understands that.

Like Peelee said, it was probably the right move anyway. I've seen an animal live around ten years past the time when by all rights it should die, and it is genuinely cruel. When it is time to go, it is time to go, and you can feel it. The fact that the person who gave you the information is a literal satan does not invalidate the fact that your cat was suffering. You did the right thing, given the information.

[Rawhide]

The end of class/school bell comes without warning* and can happen in the middle of a sentence, paragraph, or topic, or before explaining any homework or after-class activities. If at this point, every student started to get up to leave, it would be very disruptive. The bell instructs the teacher that it is time to finish the last point being made, and to inform the students of anything that need to know before they leave the classroom. It does not immediately dismiss the students.

So yes, it is the teacher that dismisses the students, not the bell. Do not start getting ready to leave immediately when the bell rings, that is highly disrespectful, to both the teacher and other students.

Failing any disciplinary measures that need to take place (which is a different matter), taking anything more than a couple of minutes to finish up could cause problems for the next classroom, appointment, or destination. So, in general, the amount of time between bell and dismissal should be very short. However...

Teachers also have a responsibility to keep every student safe. Before dismissing the class, the teacher should be confident that there are no unusual circumstances that could impact on their safety (such as flooding). This allows time for the teacher to run through a quick safety check in their mind, and hold all students back if there's any potential safety issues.


*I mean, you can look at the clock for an approximation, but who's doing that every 30 seconds and how is that affecting the class delivery?

[Rater202]

The end of class/school bell comes without warning*

No it doesn't. It happens at specific intervals to announce the beginning and end of every class. If the Bell decides when you're late, it also decides when you get to leave.

and can happen in the middle of a sentence, paragraph, or topic, or before explaining any homework or after-class activities.

That is the fault of the teacher not paying attention to the time, not the students who very much need to get to their next class, or to the bus before it leaves without them.

If at this point, every student started to get up to leave, it would be very disruptive. The bell instructs the teacher that it is time to finish the last point being made, and to inform the students of anything that need to know before they leave the classroom. It does not immediately dismiss the students.

To repeat, if the bell decides when you're late, i also decides when you can leave. Especally when you only have 3-5 minutes to get to your next class or to your bus or you'll get in trouble for being late* or get left behind and have to get someone from the office to drive you to the gas station up the road from your apartment because the house phone was turned off that day and the school doesn't have your mother's cell number on file.

So yes, it is the teacher that dismisses the students, not the bell. Do not start getting ready to leave immediately when the bell rings, that is highly disrespectful, to both the teacher and other students.

Her'es the thing, the teachers who don't dismiss at the bell, the ones who say "I dismiss you, ot the bell," don't give a crap. They can and will keep lecturing you after the bell rings instead of wrapping it up and they won't cover you when you're inevitably late to your next class*. They are inevitably the kind of person who became a teacher because they want to have control over people rather than any desire to do right by people.

*As a rule of thumb, it doesn't matter why you're late to class. It matters that you're late. It doesn't matter if a teacher held you up for the full five minutes you had to get to your locker and then to the other side of class or that a hallway got closed off because a girl had a seizure and you had to go around the long way and the goy the bullied you in middle school punched you in the shoulder when you passed I'm and tried to tell him that the hall was closed, if you're late it's going against on your record.

And if the school is flooded without it being announced by the office then thee are bigger concerns than a teacher going on a power trip.

[Rawhide]

No it doesn't. It happens at specific intervals to announce the beginning and end of every class. If the Bell decides when you're late, it also decides when you get to leave.

Did you notice the *? I'm well aware that it comes at specific intervals, but paying that much attention to it that you manage to finish your sentence right before it rings is actually more disruptive than good.

That is the fault of the teacher not paying attention to the time, not the students who very much need to get to their next class, or to the bus before it leaves without them.

*cough*cough* We're talking seconds to a couple of minutes at best here, times which are (or should) be factored into the timing of the bell. Stay the heck in your seat and listen.

To repeat, if the bell decides when you're late, i also decides when you can leave.

No, it does not. The bell indicates that it is time to end the class. It does not end the class.

The rest of your post seems to be about teachers being on a "power trip".

I'm not talking about teachers abusing their power, I'm talking about the specifics of when you are dismissed. The bell does not dismiss you. The teacher does. The teacher has full responsibility for you while you are on school grounds and can instruct you to remain in class for as long as they deem necessary, and this decision should be made with respect to the potential disruption to the students. The bell indicates when it is time for class to end, but it does not end it, nor does it dismiss you.

Side note: While I'm sure they exist, I've never had a teacher which used "I dismiss you, not the bell" (or something similar, such as "stay in your seats") as part of some sort of power trip. In fact, it was the standard way of doing it for every single teacher I ever had, and probably most students in Australia (which is about as far as I can reasonably extrapolate). Your claim that it's about power trips is far from universal.

[enderlord99]

The rest of your post seems to be about teachers being on a "power trip".

Did you miss the part about how it never matters why you're late to the next class, only that you're late?

[Rater202]

*cough*cough* We're talking seconds to a couple of minutes at best here, times which are (or should) be factored into the timing of the bell. Stay the heck in your seat and listen.

1: Should" is the keyword here. In practice, if you're not packed up and ready to leave within seconds of the bell leaving you will be late.

2: We're not talking about teachers who quickly take a second to wrap up.

We're talking about teachers who get pissy that their entire class would like to go to their next class and deliberately makes them spend most of the five minutes they have to pack up and get to class in their room while they lecture you about how rude you are for wanting to not be late to your next class.

Good teachers don't do that. Good teachers understand that they are not the only class you have and that you only have five minutes to get out, go to your locker, swap out your textbooks and supplies, take a crap, and get to your next class.

We are explicitly talking about power-tripping asshats who never should have been teachers in the first place.

[enderlord99]

Rater, while schools are all (Arguably) bad, they're not all as bad as yours was.

[Rawhide]

1: Should" is the keyword here. In practice, if you're not packed up and ready to leave within seconds of the bell leaving you will be late.

2: We're not talking about teachers who quickly take a second to wrap up.

Yes, we are. I'm specifically addressing the claim that the bell dismisses you, not the teacher. That is incorrect. The teacher dismisses you, not the bell.

We're talking about teachers who get pissy that their entire class would like to go to their next class and deliberately makes them spend most of the five minutes they have to pack up and get to class in their room while they lecture you about how rude you are for wanting to not be late to your next class.

Good teachers don't do that. Good teachers understand that they are not the only class you have and that you only have five minutes to get out, go to your locker, swap out your textbooks and supplies, take a crap, and get to your next class.

A good teacher will do what's necessary to get you to understand that you need to follow their directions. If this includes holding you back in the class until you do, this this is a step that is necessary until you do.

A teacher doing what is necessary to get you to understand this does not necessarily make it a "power trip". But I'm not attempting to go into what is and isn't a power trip. Teachers can abuse their powers in many ways, including abusing their power to hold you back, but just holding you back isn't an abuse of power in and of itself.

We are explicitly talking about power-tripping asshats who never should have been teachers in the first place.

No, we're not. I'm explicitly addressing your claim that the bell dismisses you, not the teacher. This is incorrect. The teacher dismisses you, not the bell.

[Rater202]

Rater, while schools are all (Arguably) bad, they're not all as bad as yours was.

The five public schools I went to, across two different cities, were all equally bad.

Bullcrap also happens at my university, but not to same degree. (coincidentally, in my high school we were informed of here all our teachers got their degrees and without fail all of the teachers who knew what they were doing and understood that we had more than one class and actually have a damn got at least one of their degrees from my university #idontactuallythinkitsacoincidence. Part of the reason why I wanted to go there.)

Even the expensive, accredited private school I went to for a year when I was super little had bullcrap like that. They wanted me to repeat preschool, not because I did anything wrong, but because I wasn't enrolled in their daycare program the year before.

A good teacher will do what's necessary to get you to understand that you need to follow their directions. If this includes holding you back in the class until you do, this this is a step that is necessary until you do.

Her'es the thing, you don't always need to do what the teacher, or any authority, tells you to do. By the time you're a adult you should be able to decide that for yourself.

All "obey my instructions no matter what," especially at the high school level, does is turn you into a zombie that sits there and takes it when you're being mistreated instead of a productive member of society.

Maybe it's different in Australia, but in America "I dismiss you, not the bell" is both objectively false and exclusively used by power-tripping asshats who demand that you "respec mah authoritah" rather than actually wanting to prepare you to be a functioning human being.

Authority does not mean you're always right, and it does not deserve universal respect. A teacher is someone who is being paid to do a job. The average teacher is not being paid enough to do that job, which is part of the reason why, in my country at least, there's a drastic shortage of people actually qualified to do it and that's why there are so many incompetent power-tripping asshats.

It is the attitude of the person who uses such a prase that we are talking about here. The toxicity and abuse of authority that comes with it, not the literal phrase itself.

[Rawhide]

Rater, while schools are all (Arguably) bad, they're not all as bad as yours was.

I'm certainly not going to argue that schools could not be improved immensely, and can be extremely bad places.

Maybe it's different in Australia, but in America "I dismiss you, not the bell" is both objectively false

No, it's not, teachers have the authority to prevent you from leaving for as long as they deem necessary and is reasonable, this includes as punishment (detention for an hour might been seen as reasonable, but six hours likely not). I specifically looked it up to insure this was the case in America.

and exclusively used by power-tripping asshats who demand that you "respec mah authoritah" rather than actually wanting to prepare you to be a functioning human being.

This has never been my experience, meaning that it is far from "exclusive".

It is the attitude of the person who uses such a prase that we are talking about here. The toxicity and abuse of authority that comes with it, not the literal phrase itself.

You have stated (and just re-stated) that the it is the bell that dismisses the students, not the teacher. This is what I'm addressing. That statement is incorrect.

[Rater202]

No, it's not, teachers have the authority to prevent you from leaving for as long as they deem necessary and is reasonable, this includes as punishment (detention for an hour might been seen as reasonable, but six hours likely not). I specifically looked it up to insure this was the case in America.

They do not have the right to hold the entire class up for th full five minutes that you have to get to your next class for the sole sake of finishing a lecture that they had the responsibility to time better

This has never been my experience, meaning that it is far from "exclusive".

and I have qualified my statement to clarify that I am talking about my own country. We have established that things are differant in your country.

Thus, your experience is irrelevant to the discussion as it is literally a different experience.

NoYou have stated (and just re-stated) that the it is the bell that dismisses the students, not the teacher. This is what I'm addressing. That statement is incorrect.

The bell rings when class time is officially over. That is the entire point of the bell. Under normal circumstances, you are dismissed when the class officially ends, IE, when the bell rings.

You cannot be held past this point without a valid reason.

Therefore, it is the bell that dismisses you, not the teacher. At most, the teacher is supposed to dismiss you when the bell says so, under normal circumstances.

"I'm not done yet and don't give a damn that all of you will be late for the next class or might miss your bus" is not a valid reason and never has been.

That is literally the only reason any teacher I've ever heard of has ever used that phrase, to hold an entire class back past the point when the students should have moved on to their next class because the teacher wasn't done talking yet or thought "I need to get to my next class" was somehow disrespectful.

Also, a teacher can't just give you detention. They have to give you at least a day in advance so that your guardians know where you are and you can arrange transportation if needed.

Detention also can't be given for a time when you're supposed to be in class.

They most certainly cannot give an entire class detention to be served immediately during the time set aside for you to prepare for and travel to your next class.

Thus, bringing up detention is irrelevant.

If the school has been flooded, you staying in your class isn't the teacher's call. The main office will give instructions over the Intercom or their will be predetermined instructions for what to do, depending on the severity of the problem.

Odds are if it's physically impossible to travel the halls they're just going to cancel class and tell you to sit tight until you can safely be extracted and sent home.

All of which is beyond the Teacher's authority.

Furthermore, at the high school level, if a teacher doesn't have an actual valid reason to keep n entire class late, I fully expect that they, as an adult talking to adults or near adults, to explain it instead of insisting that they're right. If you can't give a good reason for why you're making an entire room of student slate to their next class, then you are [Iobjectivly wrong[/I] and they should well be within their rights to ignore you and go to their next class to avoid getting in trouble for your decisions.

In America, "I dismiss you, not the bell" has the same connotations as "because I said so," or "I'm smart, you're dumb; I'm big, you're little; I'm right, you're wrong, and there's nothing you can do about it."

It's blatant disrespect from a person of nominal authority. It is deliberately inflicting harm to a person or persons(via damage to their academic behavioral record) for absolutely no reason. It is the last resort of someone who demands absolute respect without earning it and who is wiling to bully and abuse to get it.

[enderlord99]

I'm also American, Rater. I didn't have the same experiences you did.

[Rater202]

I'm also American, Rater. I didn't have the same experiences you did.

Then, from my research, you were lucky.

[enderlord99]

Then, from my research, you were lucky.

I certainly was, yes.

[Rawhide]

They do not have the right to hold the entire class up

Yes, they do.

The bell rings when class time is officially over. That is the entire point of the bell. Under normal circumstances, you are dismissed when the class officially ends, IE, when the bell rings.

No, that is not the case. Class isn't officially over by the bell. You are not dismissed by the bell. Class is officially over when the teacher dismisses you.

and I have qualified my statement to clarify that I am talking about my own country. We have established that things are differant in your country.

Thus, your experience is irrelevant to the discussion as it is literally a different experience.

It's far from irrelevant, but even if we factor it out entirely, your claim about it being "universal" is objectively false.

You cannot be held past this point without a valid reason.

And finishing up what needs to be said and/or done at the end of a class is a valid reason.

Therefore, it is the bell that dismisses you, not the teacher. At most, the teacher is supposed to dismiss you when the bell says so, under normal circumstances.

No, the teacher is the one that dismisses you, not the bell. The teacher can instruct you to remain after the bell.

Thus, bringing up detention is irrelevant.

Detention was brought up only to provide a clear example between reasonable and unreasonable.

If the school has been flooded, you staying in your class isn't the teacher's call. The main office will give instructions over the Intercom or their will be predetermined instructions for what to do, depending on the severity of the problem.

If there is a minor disaster such as flooding of their building that the teacher is aware of, it is very much the teacher's call to hold the students back until it can be addressed by the main office. The main office will make the final call, but the teacher has the responsibility to identify it, keep the students in a safe place, and report it.

Odds are if it's physically impossible to travel the halls they're just going to cancel class and tell you to sit tight until you can safely be extracted and sent home.

All of which is beyond the Teacher's authority.

The teacher has a responsibility to keep their students safe, and report the issue.

In America, "I dismiss you, not the bell" has the same connotations as "because I said so," or "I'm smart, you're dumb; I'm big, you're little; I'm right, you're wrong, and there's nothing you can do about it."

The problem is, that the statement is correct. The bell doesn't dismiss the students, the teachers do.

You may have experienced teachers abusing their power to hold you back, but that doesn't mean they can't hold you back. You can talk about teachers abusing their power, but the claim that the statement is incorrect is false.

[Rater202]

Yes, they do

Okay, let's try something else.

"A teacher has the responsibility to ensure that their actions do not negatively impact their students."

"A teacher has the responsibility to plan their lessons out so that class ends at a reasonable time and the students have access to time set aside for students to travel between class"

"It is improper for a teacher to deliberately make an entire class late for their next periods."

Do you agree with all of these statements?

[Rawhide]

Okay, let's try something else.

I fail to see the relevance.

The claim you've made that I'm addressing is that the sound of the bell immediately dismisses the students.

This is not the case.

I'm not addressing when this power can be abused. I'm not addressing what is or isn't abuse of power. I fully accept that it can be abused. I'm simply addressing the claim that the bell immediately dismisses the students, not the teacher. I have also indicated several reasons why this responsibility is necessary, but that is beside the point here, that the teacher is the one responsible.

[Rater202]

The bell announces the official end of class time.

A teacher who keeps an entire class f students for five minutes past the bell, guaranteeing that the entire group will be late to the following classes, for no reason instead of wrapping it up is acting improperly.

"I dismiss you, not the bell" is not an accurate statement. Even if it is the literal truth, there is an explicit point where Teachers are normally expected to dismiss students, and, without a very good reason such as "the principal went on the PA and said the hallway is flooded and student should remain in place for the time being," it is improper for a teacher to not dismiss the when their students have other classes to get too and the class period is officially over.

We cannot the accuracy of the statement "I dismiss you, not the bell" without discussing the appropriate behavior of a teacher at the moment the bell rings.

Under normal circumstances, excluding all of the unusual circumstances such as flooding that you have brought up, the appropriate thing to do is to quickly wrap things up, if the teacher is not already finished, so that the students will not be late.

Waiting for the students to get up and hen saying "I dismiss you, not the bell," is not appropriate behavior.

[Lacco]

I fail to see the relevance.

I wanted to join the debate, but seeing my experiences have no relevance, I'll stay out. I even wrote a lengthy answer, but scrapped it. It went too close to flaming as I am personally involved in the topic (taught high schoolers and taught at university for some time).

The claim you've made that I'm addressing is that the sound of the bell immediately dismisses the students.

This is not the case.

While the bell ends the time allotted, we had times when we started later (usually due to students, seldom due to teachers) or even had to pull a longer time (usually due to dirsuptions, e.g. some official statements, administrative tasks or - oftentimes - students disrupting the lessons).

I'm not addressing when this power can be abused. I'm not addressing what is or isn't abuse of power. I fully accept that it can be abused. I'm simply addressing the claim that the bell immediately dismisses the students, not the teacher. I have also indicated several reasons why this responsibility is necessary, but that is beside the point here, that the teacher is the one responsible.

Interestingly, the major argument from my side was about responsibility. When we were held back like this, it was usually not due to the teacher not planning their lessons - it was because we - the students - were not behaving properly and made the teacher lose time. When we were held back, we quickly learned the lesson of personal responsibility - if we do stupid stuff, we lose our privileges.

But who am I to talk? I grew up in post-communist country and our teachers were usually rather strict (while fair). And I am a brainwashed zombie - we usually sat in our places while teacher talked and even when the bell rang, we waited for them to finish - as a sign of respect. They showed their respect to us by wrapping up as soon as possible.

[enderlord99]

"I dismiss you, not the bell" is not an accurate statement.

It is, just not usefully so.