A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1321
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Then, from my research, you were lucky.
    I certainly was, yes.
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    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    They do not have the right to hold the entire class up
    Yes, they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The bell rings when class time is officially over. That is the entire point of the bell. Under normal circumstances, you are dismissed when the class officially ends, IE, when the bell rings.
    No, that is not the case. Class isn't officially over by the bell. You are not dismissed by the bell. Class is officially over when the teacher dismisses you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    and I have qualified my statement to clarify that I am talking about my own country. We have established that things are differant in your country.

    Thus, your experience is irrelevant to the discussion as it is literally a different experience.
    It's far from irrelevant, but even if we factor it out entirely, your claim about it being "universal" is objectively false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    You cannot be held past this point without a valid reason.
    And finishing up what needs to be said and/or done at the end of a class is a valid reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Therefore, it is the bell that dismisses you, not the teacher. At most, the teacher is supposed to dismiss you when the bell says so, under normal circumstances.
    No, the teacher is the one that dismisses you, not the bell. The teacher can instruct you to remain after the bell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Thus, bringing up detention is irrelevant.
    Detention was brought up only to provide a clear example between reasonable and unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    If the school has been flooded, you staying in your class isn't the teacher's call. The main office will give instructions over the Intercom or their will be predetermined instructions for what to do, depending on the severity of the problem.
    If there is a minor disaster such as flooding of their building that the teacher is aware of, it is very much the teacher's call to hold the students back until it can be addressed by the main office. The main office will make the final call, but the teacher has the responsibility to identify it, keep the students in a safe place, and report it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Odds are if it's physically impossible to travel the halls they're just going to cancel class and tell you to sit tight until you can safely be extracted and sent home.

    All of which is beyond the Teacher's authority.
    The teacher has a responsibility to keep their students safe, and report the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    In America, "I dismiss you, not the bell" has the same connotations as "because I said so," or "I'm smart, you're dumb; I'm big, you're little; I'm right, you're wrong, and there's nothing you can do about it."
    The problem is, that the statement is correct. The bell doesn't dismiss the students, the teachers do.

    You may have experienced teachers abusing their power to hold you back, but that doesn't mean they can't hold you back. You can talk about teachers abusing their power, but the claim that the statement is incorrect is false.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Yes, they do
    Okay, let's try something else.

    "A teacher has the responsibility to ensure that their actions do not negatively impact their students."

    "A teacher has the responsibility to plan their lessons out so that class ends at a reasonable time and the students have access to time set aside for students to travel between class"

    "It is improper for a teacher to deliberately make an entire class late for their next periods."

    Do you agree with all of these statements?
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Okay, let's try something else.
    I fail to see the relevance.

    The claim you've made that I'm addressing is that the sound of the bell immediately dismisses the students.

    This is not the case.

    I'm not addressing when this power can be abused. I'm not addressing what is or isn't abuse of power. I fully accept that it can be abused. I'm simply addressing the claim that the bell immediately dismisses the students, not the teacher. I have also indicated several reasons why this responsibility is necessary, but that is beside the point here, that the teacher is the one responsible.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    The bell announces the official end of class time.

    A teacher who keeps an entire class f students for five minutes past the bell, guaranteeing that the entire group will be late to the following classes, for no reason instead of wrapping it up is acting improperly.

    "I dismiss you, not the bell" is not an accurate statement. Even if it is the literal truth, there is an explicit point where Teachers are normally expected to dismiss students, and, without a very good reason such as "the principal went on the PA and said the hallway is flooded and student should remain in place for the time being," it is improper for a teacher to not dismiss the when their students have other classes to get too and the class period is officially over.

    We cannot the accuracy of the statement "I dismiss you, not the bell" without discussing the appropriate behavior of a teacher at the moment the bell rings.

    Under normal circumstances, excluding all of the unusual circumstances such as flooding that you have brought up, the appropriate thing to do is to quickly wrap things up, if the teacher is not already finished, so that the students will not be late.

    Waiting for the students to get up and hen saying "I dismiss you, not the bell," is not appropriate behavior.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I fail to see the relevance.
    I wanted to join the debate, but seeing my experiences have no relevance, I'll stay out. I even wrote a lengthy answer, but scrapped it. It went too close to flaming as I am personally involved in the topic (taught high schoolers and taught at university for some time).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    The claim you've made that I'm addressing is that the sound of the bell immediately dismisses the students.

    This is not the case.
    While the bell ends the time allotted, we had times when we started later (usually due to students, seldom due to teachers) or even had to pull a longer time (usually due to dirsuptions, e.g. some official statements, administrative tasks or - oftentimes - students disrupting the lessons).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I'm not addressing when this power can be abused. I'm not addressing what is or isn't abuse of power. I fully accept that it can be abused. I'm simply addressing the claim that the bell immediately dismisses the students, not the teacher. I have also indicated several reasons why this responsibility is necessary, but that is beside the point here, that the teacher is the one responsible.
    Interestingly, the major argument from my side was about responsibility. When we were held back like this, it was usually not due to the teacher not planning their lessons - it was because we - the students - were not behaving properly and made the teacher lose time. When we were held back, we quickly learned the lesson of personal responsibility - if we do stupid stuff, we lose our privileges.

    But who am I to talk? I grew up in post-communist country and our teachers were usually rather strict (while fair). And I am a brainwashed zombie - we usually sat in our places while teacher talked and even when the bell rang, we waited for them to finish - as a sign of respect. They showed their respect to us by wrapping up as soon as possible.
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  7. - Top - End - #1327
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    "I dismiss you, not the bell" is not an accurate statement.
    It is, just not usefully so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strigon View Post
    Wow.
    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

    I salute you.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    The bell does not announce the official end of class time. The bell indicates that class is to wrap up as soon as possible.

    "I dismiss you, not the bell" is an accurate statement. We can discuss the accuracy of the statement "I dismiss you, not the bell" without discussing the inappropriate behaviour of some teachers.

    Under normal circumstances, the appropriate thing for the teacher to do is to quickly wrap things up, if the teacher is not already finished, then to dismiss the students. This could include asking the students to stay for a reasonable amount of time. What is reasonable is dependant on the situation.

    Getting up and attempting to leave before you have been dismissed is disruptive to other students, and will mean that the teacher will usually need to take even longer to finalise the end of class and be able to dismiss the students.

    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    I wanted to join the debate, but seeing my experiences have no relevance, I'll stay out.
    I should say that it's not relevant to the specific thing I was addressing, who or what dismisses the students. Rater202 appears to have had some experience with teachers they weren't fond of, so it may be relevant to that (as long as you can keep it peaceful).

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    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    Interestingly, the major argument from my side was about responsibility. When we were held back like this, it was usually not due to the teacher not planning their lessons - it was because we - the students - were not behaving properly and made the teacher lose time. When we were held back, we quickly learned the lesson of personal responsibility - if we do stupid stuff, we lose our privileges.

    But who am I to talk? I grew up in post-communist country and our teachers were usually rather strict (while fair). And I am a brainwashed zombie - we usually sat in our places while teacher talked and even when the bell rang, we waited for them to finish - as a sign of respect. They showed their respect to us by wrapping up as soon as possible.
    See, this is what is supposed to happen. Everyone follows the rules and gets punished for breaking them.

    But I find it irritating when I start a discussion with "I just found out that the abusive bullcrap myself and others were subjected to might be illegal. Why do I never find out this stuff when it would be useful" and am met with "Teachers have the right to abuse people in that way and it's good thing becuase they need to teach you to respect and obey them no matter what and besides here's an uncommon circumstance where doing something superficially similar to the abuse would be the right thing."

    In the American public school system, "I dismiss you, not the bell" is universally an excuse used by abusive teachers to punish students who did nothing wrong while the teacher gets away scot-free. If a good teacher has a valid reason to hold up the class, they will say soinstead of acting like they're an omnipotent authority whose every whim must be obeyed even to the detriment of the students.

    A teacher does not have the right to hold up an entire class of students long enough to guarantee that they will not make it to their class without a valid reason. To deliberately do so is abusive. "I dismiss you, not the bell" is at best a drastic simplification used, by teachers in the American public school system, to get away with such abusive behavior.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-03-20 at 05:58 AM.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    See, this is what is supposed to happen. Everyone follows the rules and gets punished for breaking them.
    The rules are, wait to be dismissed by the teacher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    But I find it irritating when I start a discussion with "I just found out that the abusive bullcrap myself and others were subjected to might be illegal. Why do I never find out this stuff when it would be useful" and am met with "Teachers have the right to abuse people in that way and it's good thing becuase they need to teach you to respect and obey them no matter what and besides here's an uncommon circumstance where doing something superficially similar to the abuse would be the right thing."
    You were not. Not a single person has said that teachers have the right to abuse people.

    Multiple people have tried to correct your claim about who or what dismisses the students, though.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    You were not. Not a single person has said that teachers have the right to abuse people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    They do not have the right to hold the entire class up for the full five minutes that you have to get to your next class for the sole sake of finishing a lecture that they had the responsibility to time better
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Yes, they do.
    So, here we have an exchange wherein I state that teachers do not have the right to deliberately make students late to another class to cover up the teachers own mistakes met by you stating that they do.

    You even edited my statement to make it seem like I was saying that teachers don't have the right to hold students at all.

    Your other responses to me have been similar in tone or content.

    From my perspective, Rawhide, your entire argument consists of you trying to correct a statement, a rather unimportant part of my argument all things considered, by making excuses and providing justification for teachers that abused myself and others and trying to downplay what my experiences and research tell me are the majority in my country as an insignificant minority.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    From my perspective, Rawhide, your entire argument consists of you trying to correct a statement
    Correct.

    I am 100% only addressing one specific point. A claim you made (multiple times) about who or what dismisses the students. I have, multiple times, stated that I'm not addressing abuse of that responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    So, here we have an exchange wherein I state that teachers do not have the right to deliberately make students late to another class to cover up the teachers own mistakes met by you stating that they do.

    You even edited my statement to make it seem like I was saying that teachers don't have the right to hold students at all.
    I didn't edit your statement, I trimmed it to the relevant portion for context. As I have stated previously, I am only addressing who or what dismisses the students.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    I do agree that that kind of bluster is typical of a teacher who has already lost control of their classroom. A good teacher shouts the homework assignment over the sounds of their students packing up to leave, then shoos their students out so they can have a quick conference with their colleague and plan their next globetrotting adventure.
    I've had it happen once, by a teacher who wanted to finish their point. And the entire class sat back down, because she had control of the classroom, and two minutes later we were out. I also think it happened due to us going on lunch next instead of the five minute dash across campus to the maths building.

    Maybe a teacher who abuses it regularly is a [redacted], but that doesn't apply to every teacher who uses it. Sometimes lessons overrun by a minute or two, and a teacher knows that students are listening to what the homework is if they're not busy packing their bags. At the same time a good teacher doesn't penalise you for being a minute or two late unless you're coming back from a school-wide break, and it never happened because IME it's not uncommon for the teacher to be up to five minutes late.

    Plus I once turned up two minutes late to a lecture on time management, just to be funny.

    Now I'm nowhere near posh enough to have attended a public school, but in all the state schools I've been in (three) only one used a bell, although the one I was a student at the longest, and my university didn't either. Heck, by university there were no penalties for being late to a lecture beyond missing the material, unless you had disability support.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    Correct.

    I am 100% only addressing one specific point. A claim you made (multiple times) about who or what dismisses the students. I have, multiple times, stated that I'm not addressing abuse of that responsibility.



    I didn't edit your statement, I trimmed it to the relevant portion for context. As I have stated previously, I am only addressing who or what dismisses the students.
    This seems relevant.

    EDIT: Anonwiz, when people outside the UK say "public school" they mean "state-funded." If they meant one you had to pay for, they would say "private school."

    I have been to both, even though my parents aren't rich.
    Last edited by enderlord99; 2021-03-20 at 06:23 AM.
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    That took a very sudden turn for the dark.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I didn't edit your statement, I trimmed it to the relevant portion for context. As I have stated previously, I am only addressing who or what dismisses the students.
    You removed important context from my point to make your own point relevant when it was not to the full statement you were responding to.

    You are hyperfocusing on what is ultimately an irrelevant detail and in doing so you are, giving the benefit of the doubt, unintentionally defending and justifying people who have abused myself and others.

    Can you at least acknowledge that I am justified in finding that frustrating?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    You removed important context from my point to make your own point relevant when it was not to the full statement you were responding to.
    You kept replying to me with irrelevant information that did not back up your claim, a claim you kept re-stating. I kept trying to dial it back to just what I was addressing and quoted the relevant portions for context. I also tried to explain what I was and was not addressing to no avail.

    Can you at least acknowledge that I am justified in finding that frustrating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    You are hyperfocusing on what is ultimately an irrelevant detail and in doing so you are, giving the benefit of the doubt, unintentionally defending and justifying people who have abused myself and others.
    I focused on a specific detail. I corrected that specific detail. I explained that I was only talking about that specific detail.

    I have never defended or justified abuse. I've only spoken about something that is not abuse in and of itself, but can be abused.

    Requiring students to remain in the class after the bell until they have been dismissed, even if its just to ensure that students understand that they need to remain in the class after the bell until they have been dismissed when they don't follow that rule, is not abuse. But requiring students to remain in the class after the bell can be abused, this responsibility can be misused to harm students. I've always acknowledged that it can be abused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    EDIT: Anonwiz, when people outside the UK say "public school" they mean "state-funded." If they meant one you had to pay for, they would say "private school."

    I have been to both, even though my parents aren't rich.
    I know, I was trying to be funny. There's also a difference between a paid for school and a public school here, we also have private schools.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    The end of class/school bell comes without warning* and can happen in the middle of a sentence, paragraph, or topic, or before explaining any homework or after-class activities. If at this point, every student started to get up to leave, it would be very disruptive. The bell instructs the teacher that it is time to finish the last point being made, and to inform the students of anything that need to know before they leave the classroom. It does not immediately dismiss the students.
    It's very rare in my experience for a teacher to list yeah of tone like that ; clocks are strategically placed for teachers (back of room) so they always have a line of sight on it. You don't meet to look every thirty seconds, a passive perception of it is usually enough. Plus, most teachers have been teaching for some time and have a good idea of how long their lesson plans will run, though student participation is always a wild card. But for the most part, teachers are usurping aware of their class's imminent end. An easy example of this is American university, where there is no bell; the professors need to end their classes on time with no indication other than the clock, and they typically have much more intense topics (and much more passion for the topic) than grade school and high school, which can balance out the likely less disruptive classes.

    Now, the biggest time it's justified is when students by and large start packing up before the end of class, which is also super disrespectful and still happens well into college.

    All that said, again, Rater, it's almost certainly not illegal, certainly not illegal in the sense you appear to think, and definitely within the purview of the teachers. The specific phrase "I dismiss you, not the bell" I only heard from an IMO subpar teacher, so I agree with you on that, but others did do similar actions while explaining why and that was perfectly within their scope of authority (and taught me to be mindful).
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It's very rare in my experience for a teacher to list yeah of tone like that ; clocks are strategically placed for teachers (back of room) so they always have a line of sight on it. You don't meet to look every thirty seconds, a passive perception of it is usually enough. Plus, most teachers have been teaching for some time and have a good idea of how long their lesson plans will run, though student participation is always a wild card. But for the most part, teachers are usurping aware of their class's imminent end. An easy example of this is American university, where there is no bell; the professors need to end their classes on time with no indication other than the clock, and they typically have much more intense topics (and much more passion for the topic) than grade school and high school, which can balance out the likely less disruptive classes.
    It's the responsibility of the teacher to finish approximately on time. Not exactly on time. They are monitoring that clock for the approximate finish time, not the exact time. There will be times when a teacher will be in the middle of a sentence when the bell rings and they just have a sentence or two to get out. Or there will be times where time gets away from the teacher and they are surprised by the bell, then they need to quickly find a way to wrap up the lesson. Sometimes, teachers will take a moment after the bell to remind students of what homework or after-class activities they need to perform, or what material they need to take home with them, so that it's fresh in their mind as they walk out.

    If a large number of students get up and start to leave as soon as the bell rings, it's highly disruptive.

    If you want to end every lesson exactly on the bell every single class, you do need to watch that clock like an absolute hawk. If you want to end it approximately on the bell, and give the best education you can to your students, you will go over the timeslot frequently enough.

    Remember too that a teacher can't just let every student out before the bell rings, that causes problems in other ways, so if they are running five minutes ahead (for example), they need to find an activity that will last approximately five minutes, then they need to wrap that unplanned activity up.

    Looking at your university example only from a time management standpoint (the rest is so different as to not apply), I'm not sure how that changes things. They still have the same issues of occasionally running out of time and needing a little extra to finish up, just without a centralised bell system.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    It's the responsibility of the teacher to finish approximately on time. Not exactly on time. They are monitoring that clock for the approximate finish time, not the exact time. There will be times when a teacher will be in the middle of a sentence when the bell rings and they just have a sentence or two to get out. Or there will be times where time gets away from the teacher and they are surprised by the bell, then they need to quickly find a way to wrap up the lesson. Sometimes, teachers will take a moment after the bell to remind students of what homework or after-class activities they need to perform, or what material they need to take home with them, so that it's fresh in their mind as they walk out.

    If a large number of students get up and start to leave as soon as the bell rings, it's highly disruptive.

    If you want to end every lesson exactly on the bell every single class, you do need to watch that clock like an absolute hawk. If you want to end it approximately on the bell, and give the best education you can to your students, you will go over the timeslot frequently enough.

    Remember too that a teacher can't just let every student out before the bell rings, that causes problems in other ways, so if they are running five minutes ahead (for example), they need to find an activity that will last approximately five minutes, then they need to wrap that unplanned activity up.

    Looking at your university example only from a time management standpoint (the rest is so different as to not apply), I'm not sure how that changes things. They still have the same issues of occasionally running out of time and needing a little extra to finish up, just without a centralised bell system.
    This is both anecdotal as well as appeal to authority, but my dad held a Doctorate of Education and both taught and wrote textbooks on educational philosophy (teaching teachers how to be teachers at a graduate level), and I never got the impression from him that what you say would be correct.

    This is also vague on top of those. I'm fully aware of how it's not a great argument, but since I can't ask my dad directly that's what I gotta go with.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This is both anecdotal as well as appeal to authority, but my dad held a Doctorate of Education and both taught and wrote textbooks on educational philosophy (teaching teachers how to be teachers at a graduate level), and I never got the impression from him that what you say would be correct.

    This is also vague on top of those. I'm fully aware of how
    It's not a great argument, but since I can't ask my dad directly that's what I gotta go with.
    I'll PM you why that particular appeal to authority won't work in this specific instance.

    (In short, I'm not talking from a basis of just theory either.)

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I'll PM you why that particular appeal to authority won't work in this specific instance.

    (In short, I'm not talking from a basis of just theory either.)
    Then to pure anecdotal evidence it is! I can't remember the last time a class I had ran over time, especially since there would nearly always be the assignments for practice given at the end of class (where the professors would choose from the pre-made lost based on what seemed to give issues to the students or what may not have been covered as deeply as expected that day).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    See, this is what is supposed to happen. Everyone follows the rules and gets punished for breaking them.
    Interestingly, it only happens once both sides become civilized enough. I remember that this started even in later primary school classes, where we were informed that the fact that the bell has rung has no bearing on the presence of the teacher.

    The other part was the swift action of each teacher during first classes in high school - once the bell rung, we started to be loud and not care about the teacher, he swiftly put us back in line. After two or three repeats, we knew this was no winning battle - and instead started to respect that only when the teacher says the lesson ended, we are free to have our break.

    Once we did respect it, they had no reason to further "abuse" us as you call it. I call it discipline.

    Also, on personal anecdote basis: it worked best with teachers that put a list of rules on the table first class of the year. We had 3 of those, very systematic. The rules were followed and everybody did well.

    Once we even called out one of our teachers (each class had a "class teacher" in addition to subject teachers - the class teacher was a person responsible for disciplinary activities) on unfairness of the system when he required that we greet him formally, but he only nodded back often. We agreed that we'll be bowing low to each other - we all bowed to him, he bowed to us. It was a lot of fun - but that was the last year and the respect went both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    In the American public school system, "I dismiss you, not the bell" is universally an excuse used by abusive teachers to punish students who did nothing wrong while the teacher gets away scot-free. If a good teacher has a valid reason to hold up the class, they will say soinstead of acting like they're an omnipotent authority whose every whim must be obeyed even to the detriment of the students.
    And due to my personal experiences... while you may feel like the students did nothing wrong, I could give you a wagon of good reasons to be curt and require more discipline.

    Why? I have been on both sides of the fence - even if not for too long. I enjoyed being a teacher. And I have certainly used some methods you would not like - because they work. And they work without issues. Talked to my students once they were out of the UNI and they told me my classes were fun and even if I was strict, it was fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    "I dismiss you, not the bell" is an accurate statement. We can discuss the accuracy of the statement "I dismiss you, not the bell" without discussing the inappropriate behaviour of some teachers.
    I feel that this is not the point the other side wishes to discuss. Or that this is expected to be discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I should say that it's not relevant to the specific thing I was addressing, who or what dismisses the students. Rater202 appears to have had some experience with teachers they weren't fond of, so it may be relevant to that (as long as you can keep it peaceful).
    I'll try. If I feel I can't, I'll bow out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide View Post
    I'll PM you why that particular appeal to authority won't work in this specific instance.
    I have the feeling I know what the content of the PM will be . But would like to know.

    So, back to the original question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Why do I only learn that the bullcrap myself and others had to deal with is a crime after it's too late for me to use that valuable information.
    Because nobody likes bullies and while getting back at the bully feels great, it makes you a bully on your own - and that means, you would be even a bigger target.

    And while I have the feeling that you would be on the slippery slope of the dark side the moment you got this information, I don't think you would enjoy it.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    I think what's interesting about this entire teacher discussion is that, at least in Canada, it is the bell that dismisses you, 100%, because we actually acknowledge that not everyone has personal chaffer's that can take you too and from school.

    If you're a kid who takes the buss, or kids with parents who can only afford so much time to get you home, when the bell rings you just leave. Don't bolt off like you're doing the 100 meter dash of course, but when the bell rings the teacher's time is over.

    Honestly the idea that a teacher would be like "no, you have to stay I have more to say, I dismiss you" is horrifying to me. The teacher wants to go home too **** that. And if someone does like, try to do that, you can just... leave. What're they going to do, throw hands at a middle schooler?

    Also just as quick aside; striking back when struck (in as simple terms as I can muster) shouldn't be punished and schools that push the mentality of "conflict requires two sides" doesn't understand a single god damn thing about what they're doing.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    What're they going to do, throw hands at a middle schooler?
    Detention. If you don't go, suspension.

    Also like all public schools are school-bussed and outside of private schools or high schools where the kids learn to drive and might have their own cars, most American schoolchildren also dont have their own personal chauffeurs either.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Detention. If you don't go, suspension.

    Also like all public schools are school-bussed and outside of private schools or high schools where the kids learn to drive and might have their own cars, most American schoolchildren also dont have their own personal chauffeurs either.
    No school is going to successfully argue "they come to school every day, do all their work, but when the bell rings they just leave and don't listen, so we're kicking them out".

    I know, that was just me exaggerating towards the teachers who DO think they can just, hold students back for whatever reasons.


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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I think what's interesting about this entire teacher discussion is that, at least in Canada, it is the bell that dismisses you, 100%, because we actually acknowledge that not everyone has personal chaffer's that can take you too and from school.
    Time of day is also a factor (the only time I had it happen was when we had a break immediately after), and while I've never heard of kids at that school being kept behind on the last lesson of the day every school I know of either specifically provided later services (if relatively remote) or relied on local bus routes anyway. Heck my school both provided later buses for those in after school clubs (mainly football and rugby) and detention and was near relatively regular services to most nearby villages if you could cough up the fare.

    But yeah, being kept behind at end of day is much worse.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I think what's interesting about this entire teacher discussion is that, at least in Canada, it is the bell that dismisses you, 100%, because we actually acknowledge that not everyone has personal chaffer's that can take you too and from school.

    If you're a kid who takes the buss, or kids with parents who can only afford so much time to get you home, when the bell rings you just leave. Don't bolt off like you're doing the 100 meter dash of course, but when the bell rings the teacher's time is over.

    Honestly the idea that a teacher would be like "no, you have to stay I have more to say, I dismiss you" is horrifying to me. The teacher wants to go home too **** that. And if someone does like, try to do that, you can just... leave. What're they going to do, throw hands at a middle schooler?

    Also just as quick aside; striking back when struck (in as simple terms as I can muster) shouldn't be punished and schools that push the mentality of "conflict requires two sides" doesn't understand a single god damn thing about what they're doing.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    No school is going to successfully argue "they come to school every day, do all their work, but when the bell rings they just leave and don't listen, so we're kicking them out".
    Oh of course not. It would be "they keep skipping detention to the point that they have been suspended". Unless they go to all the detentions, in which case it might just be easier to stay until the teacher dismisses them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh of course not. It would be "they keep skipping detention to the point that they have been suspended". Unless they go to all the detentions, in which case it might just be easier to stay until the teacher dismisses them.
    I'm pretty sure that if the kid goes home and tells their parents "the teacher gave me a detention because I left classroom when class was over so I could get to my next class/the bus on time" and the parents go to the office and complain that the school will back down on the detention.

    If not by themselves, then when the parent threatens to take it to the community or get lawyers involved over the school's blatantly unfair treatment of a child over a very petty matter when the student has a valid reason to want to leave when class is over instead of when the teacher says they can leave.

    Schools don't like bad publicity and the school board will throw an entire administration under the bus to avoid a lawsuit if that's what it takes.

    In general, if the parents make it clear that they will not tolerate a child being punished for something that the parent doesn't think is fair, the school will back down. This is a good thing because if the kid is being screwed over a good parent can put a stop to it... But it's also a bad thing because Karens exist.

    Personally, I'm willing to tolerate the Karens abusing this if it means innocent kids aren't being punished over bullcrap.
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