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  1. - Top - End - #1351
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that if the kid goes home and tells their parents "the teacher gave me a detention because I left classroom when class was over so I could get to my next class/the bus on time" and the parents go to the office and complain that the school will back down on the detention.
    [lukeskywalker] Your overconfidence is your weakness. [/lukeskywalker]

    ETA: Also, as far as a lawsuit... For what? What damages would be claimed?
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  2. - Top - End - #1352
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [lukeskywalker] Your overconfidence is your weakness. [/lukeskywalker]

    ETA: Also, as far as a lawsuit... For what? What damages would be claimed?
    those detentions and suspensions go on your transcript.

    Those transcripts are used when applying to college.

    One would make a legitimate argument that giving a student an unfair detention, suspension, or expulsion is actively preventing them from furthering their education after high school, and thus limiting their future opportunities.

    Suspending a child because they consistently leave the classroom when class is over so they can get to their next class on time, when there is a bell thats sole purpose is to announce the beginning and end of class time and that you have five minutes to get to the next class is pretty much the definition of unfair.

    The only way it would be more clear cut that the school is in the wrong is if a kid get the absolute crap kicked out of them by another student, without in any way provoking the fight or fighting back, and then got expelled because of the School's zero tolerance policy.
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  3. - Top - End - #1353
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Suspending a child because they consistently leave the classroom when class is over so they can get to their next class on time, when there is a bell thats sole purpose is to announce the beginning and end of class time and that you have five minutes to get to the next class is pretty much the definition of unfair.
    Unfair does it equate to illegal.

    Also, that's not what goes on a transcript. That's a disciplinary record, which colleges may or may not ask for, and when they do they may only ask about major offenses, usually criminal ones. And if they request literally everything (which will be rare because they have a lot of applicants and limited time. They typically have neither the time nor the inclination), then they would also get the full context.

    Short version, again, what damages? Keeping in mind you typically have to prove damages and.ot simply say "well things might have been different".
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  4. - Top - End - #1354
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Unfair does it equate to illegal.
    Doesn't have to be, we're talking a civil suit, not a criminal trial.

    "The school is blatantly mistreating my child, I want a court order to make them stop" is a valid enough reason to get lawyers involved.

    Also, on damage, the parent could be losing wages becuase they have to call off work to pick up the kid, watch the kid when they would have been in school, or go down to the school to argue with the school staff about the bullcrap that comes from the kid repeatedly being given unfair detentions and suspensions for the crime of wanting to arrive to and depart from class at the times specified

    Edit: and likewise, it doesn't have to be a solid enough cas to win, just solid enough case that your lawyer will serve papers.

    Schools don't want bad publicity and school Boards even ess so. Once papers are served they rather settle or offer concessions in exchange for you dropping it than let it go to court.

    Assuming they don't drop th ensue when a rightfully pissed off parent comes in and exhaling at they will not allow the school to mistreat the child.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-03-20 at 05:26 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #1355
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Doesn't have to be, we're talking a civil suit, not a criminal trial.

    "The school is blatantly mistreating my child, I want a court order to make them stop" is a valid enough reason to get lawyers involved.

    Also, on damage, the parent could be losing wages becuase they have to call off work to pick up the kid, watch the kid when they would have been in school, or go down to the school to argue with the school staff about the bullcrap that comes from the kid repeatedly being given unfair detentions and suspensions for the crime of wanting to arrive to and depart from class at the times specified.
    Again, "illegal" does not equate to "criminal". You've previously claimed it was illegal and have, to my knowledge, not walked that back.

    Secondly, yes, you could file civil suit for that, but lawyers aren't cheap, and either case you're describing based on their merits is not terribly convincing. Also, did you mean to jump to two different potential cases? Because you've jumped to two completely different cases.
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  6. - Top - End - #1356
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    If a parent complains, the school will often back down/pressure the teacher to change their behavior, because schools ultimately exist by the permission of parents. If they don't the parent can pull their child out of school anyway (though depending on the state that can eventually lead to other issues with truancy laws).

    But you can't generally sue a teacher for disciplinary practice. Here's a quote from the legal code of the jurisdiction my schooling took place in:

    Quote Originally Posted by Limitation on civil damages for disciplining student
    No educator shall be liable for any civil damages for, or arising out of, any act or omission concerning, relating to, or resulting from the discipline of any student or the reporting of any student for misconduct, except for acts or omissions of willful or wanton misconduct.
    You're going to have a hard time convincing a judge that "spend 3 minutes after the bell finishing a lecture" constitutes "willful or wanton misconduct".

    Obviously I'm not a lawyer so who knows, maybe there is something you could do with enough legal resources, but it seems to me like this falls firmly into the category of "people are jerks sometimes, and the law can't really stop them".

  7. - Top - End - #1357
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Again, "illegal" does not equate to "criminal". You've previously claimed it was illegal and have, to my knowledge, not walked that back.

    Secondly, yes, you could file civil suit for that, but lawyers aren't cheap, and either case you're describing based on their merits is not terribly convincing. Also, did you mean to jump to two different potential cases? Because you've jumped to two completely different cases.
    You insisted on possible damages. If "the School id blatantly mistreating my child by punishing them for wanting to get to class on time."

    See my edit, don't gotta go to trial, just has to e convincing enough that papers get filed.

    Nobody wants the bad publicity that comes with schools getting sued because of a teacher as mistreating a student. If a teacher is consistently refusing to let students leave class on time and punishing students who leave anyway(becuase they need to get to their next class on time) and the school administration/other teachers don't step in to put a stop to that bullcrap, then the school would be in big trouble if that got out to the public.

    Once papers are served, the school will probably settle, if not by itself then when the school board forces the issue.

    As it is, the lawsuit is the last resort. first, it's the parent giving the school a stern talking to/strongly worded letter. Then it's a threat to take it to the court of public opinion. If it gets out to the public and the school still refuses to do the right thing and put a stop to the bullcrap/overturn the unfair punishments, then you get a lawyer to draft a statement.

    Edit @Hyoi: We're not talking about staying after for 3 minutes.

    Were talking about "teacher consistently refuses to end class on time, making students repeatedly late for class, and students are being punished either for being late or for leaving anyway to avoid being late, to the point that students are now being given long detentions of being suspended over things that are the fault of this one teacher rather than the fault of the students."
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-03-20 at 05:38 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #1358
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    it seems to me like this falls firmly into the category of "people are jerks sometimes, and the law can't really stop them".
    Exactly. Now, one could argue against this, but it's high cost for low reward, and poor odds of getting that low reward to boot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    You insisted on possible damages. If "the School id blatantly mistreating my child by punishing them for wanting to get to class on time."
    See above. It's not worth it unless you like wasting money, and that's even assuming you even find a lawyer willing to take it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Once papers are served, the school will probably settle, if not by itself then when the school board forces the issue.
    Settle for what? What are the damages you wish to recoup? Is it simply "make them stop it!"? If so, see above.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-20 at 05:39 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #1359
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Exactly. Now, one could argue against this, but it's high cost for low reward, and poor odds of getting that low reward to boot.
    Not only that, the same code I quoted also specifies later on that if you lose the case and the judge finds it "frivolous, not meritorious, or without just cause", you have to pay the school/teacher's legal expenses.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    Not only that, the same code I quoted also specifies later on that if you lose the case and the judge finds it "frivolous, not meritorious, or without just cause", you have to pay the school/teacher's legal expenses.
    Again, if it actually makes it to the point where you're calling a lawyer and drafting peppers the school is probably going to settle once they've been served rather than let it go to court.
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  11. - Top - End - #1361
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    Not only that, the same code I quoted also specifies later on that if you lose the case and the judge finds it "frivolous, not meritorious, or without just cause", you have to pay the school/teacher's legal expenses.
    And if you hired a lawyer who was willing to take it on, things don't bode well for them either. Which is why it'd be even more unlikely for a lawyer to take it on.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    @Hyoi: We're not talking about staying after for 3 minutes.

    Were talking about "teacher consistently refuses to end class on time, making students repeatedly late for class, and students are being punished either for being late or for leaving anyway to avoid being late, to the point that students are now being given long detentions of being suspended over things that are the fault of this one teacher rather than the fault of the students."
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Again, if it actually makes it to the point where you're calling a lawyer and drafting peppers the school is probably going to settle once they've been served rather than let it go to court.
    In this situation, you would complain to the principal, or failing that, the school board, and most likely the teacher would be told to start ending class on time or the students would be told they would no longer be penalized for being late. If that didn't happen, the parents could talk to each other and some of them would probably run for school board and make the existing board sweat in the next election. But that's private dispute resolution, possibly escalating to local politics, not a matter of law. The courts would not be involved.

    At least that is how it would work in the community where I live. I obviously don't know anything about the circumstances of your specific personal experiences.
    Last edited by Hyoi; 2021-03-20 at 05:46 PM.

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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Again, the lawyer is the last resort for if the school's absolute refusal to stop enabling one teacher's bull**** escalates to particularly egregious levels after talking to them and taking it to the court of public opinion fail to make it stop.

    "The school is mistreating my child to the point of actively damaging their academic career and is costing me money as I keep having to take off work to deal with it, all becuase my child wanted to follow the rules and make it to class on time. We have spoken with school officials about it and made the issue known to the public but the school refuses to be reasonable. We have tried everything else but it's looking like we might have to litigate."

    I'm not talking about a Karen walking in with a lawyer the next day after a teacher held up class one time.
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  14. - Top - End - #1364
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    And again, the way you hold schools accountable is through school board elections, not law. Which brings us back to my original point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Today I learned that any teacher who says "I dismiss you, not the bell" and tries to hold the entire class after the class period has officially ended is technically breaking the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    What law would they be breaking? At least where I live teachers can't physically stop students from leaving the classroom at any time of day, bell or no bell. But teachers are allowed tell students to stay after the bell as a consequence for misbehavior or as an expectation of respect when the day's work isn't quite done. That's a matter of classroom management and school policy, not a matter of law.
    If a school's policy is not serving the interests of students, and they refuse to budge when parent's complain about the policy, you vote in a new school board who will make new policies. The actual law does not prohibit teachers keeping a class after the bell and punishing those who leave with academic sanctions, or at least the assertion that it does runs against everything I have read on the subject and requires evidence for me to believe it.
    Last edited by Hyoi; 2021-03-20 at 06:00 PM. Reason: one day I'll learn to be legible on the first pass

  15. - Top - End - #1365
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Again, the lawyer is the last resort for if the school's absolute refusal to stop enabling one teacher's bull**** escalates to particularly egregious levels after talking to them and taking it to the court of public opinion fail to make it stop.

    "The school is mistreating my child to the point of actively damaging their academic career and is costing me money as I keep having to take off work to deal with it, all becuase my child wanted to follow the rules and make it to class on time. We have spoken with school officials about it and made the issue known to the public but the school refuses to be reasonable. We have tried everything else but it's looking like we might have to litigate."
    What construed egregious levels of refusal? You ask the school to stop, they refuse. You ask the school board, they say no. That's.... it. It's hardly egregious, but that's the point where you've hit a brick wall and need to resort to lawsuit. Which, again, will have a wildly disproportionate cost/reward ratio even if you win, which is far from certain. Its not worth it for the most part. The legal system is pay-to-play.

    And, again, you have talked about two very different cases without differentiating them.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-20 at 05:56 PM.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Since I've been quarantined (stay at home, don't leave due to covid) with kids for over than a month now, we've developed an afternoon "ritual" of me running them through different exercises & simple games (my experience from kids' camps is relatively extensive and I'm good at improvising). Usually I create a simple map with the tasks shown on them and I try to keep it within certain theme.

    We've done a trip through desert to the pyramids (of course including exploring them), a hunting expedition to Alaska, expedition to Aztec temple...

    So, any ideas what to do next? I'm not out of ideas - but it's enough to think of the games. So, creative folks... what to do next?

    ...definitely scratching US high school :D
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Changing topics.

    I like the idea of cybernetic enhancement, but as I've said before I'm squeamish about replacing perfectly good limbs and organs without a good reason. It just sounds like you're asking for dysphoria, dysmorphia, or phantom pain. Implants are better, but you're still going under the knife.

    Nanomachine injections are better, but there's only so much they can do and anything particularly complex might require them to be connected to a server so if the wifi goes down... Or the manufacture decides they don't want to support your model... Or some hacker decides to screw with you...

    Honestly, the best way to become a cyborg, from what I can see, would be something like a benign version of the Transmmode or Techno-Organic viruses. Itty bitty microscopic mechanical organisms that infect your cells and convert them into living machinery at the molecular level.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    I think what's interesting about this entire teacher discussion is that, at least in Canada, it is the bell that dismisses you, 100%, because we actually acknowledge that not everyone has personal chaffer's that can take you too and from school.

    If you're a kid who takes the buss, or kids with parents who can only afford so much time to get you home, when the bell rings you just leave. Don't bolt off like you're doing the 100 meter dash of course, but when the bell rings the teacher's time is over.

    Honestly the idea that a teacher would be like "no, you have to stay I have more to say, I dismiss you" is horrifying to me. The teacher wants to go home too **** that. And if someone does like, try to do that, you can just... leave. What're they going to do, throw hands at a middle schooler?

    Also just as quick aside; striking back when struck (in as simple terms as I can muster) shouldn't be punished and schools that push the mentality of "conflict requires two sides" doesn't understand a single god damn thing about what they're doing.
    My memory from school (admittedly nearly 2 decades old at this point) was that you generally had about 10 minutes from when the final bell rang until when the buses would even think about leaving. It might have been more like 20 in high school. Passing times between classes were only about 5 minutes, so even if you were kept a minute late (unlikely at the end of the day for the reasons you describe), you still had almost 2 full passing times to get to your locker and get to the bus (or nearly 4 if my memory of high school is correct).

    As for punishing people who fight back, I can't remember if they did that to me. Both times I got suspended (i.e. told not to come to school for a few days) in high school I technically threw the first punch. I am still not sure what the optimal solution to the bullies would have been, but losing 3 days of class was a decent price to pay to have them stop bothering me.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    Winter coats should extend into an insulated kilt in order to help keep the legs warm without restricting leg movement the way that snow pants do.
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    Default Re: DataNinja's Scintillating Digital Random Banter #231

    I just realised one of the reasons I dislike D&D, and it's because of the wizard archetypes it allows. Specifically the way it sets up most caster classes means that I can't really play a wizard who dedicated their life to studying plant magic, or the healing arts, or a few other disciplines locked up by ;divine casters', at least until relatively high levels. Having just finished a game where I played a rather specialised plant/earth wizard (yeah, Warhammer Jade Wizard) I found the experience to be much nicer than D%D's grab bag of assorted powers I had no need to link thematically (at least Priests used to do that).

    I'm starting to like the Cleric just because it has more clear space to move into alternate archetypes, as does the Sorcerer now subclasses are getting more spells known. I really want to build a setting where Clerics are the only casters, but that basically means cutting out most of the latest edition's character classes. Maybe I could worm Warlocks and Artificers in there somewhere...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Winter coats should extend into an insulated kilt in order to help keep the legs warm without restricting leg movement the way that snow pants do.
    I wholeheartedly agree. That or we should just bring cloaks back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoi View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree. That or we should just bring cloaks back.
    Cloaks are more of an "it's chilly" thing than a "it's winter" thing. Wear the cloak over a sweater or something.

    Of course, in an emergency situation, a cloak runs into the same problem as capes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Of course, in an emergency situation, a cloak runs into the same problem as capes.
    ...It gets sucked into a jet-engine?
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    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    ...It gets sucked into a jet-engine?
    Among other things.

    Loose-fitting cloth gets caught on stuff. You'd want the cloak tied with a clasp that will come undone if it's yanked on really hard, but then it might not stay fastened when you want it fastened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Winter coats should extend into an insulated kilt in order to help keep the legs warm without restricting leg movement the way that snow pants do.
    As with many things, Canada's got you covered Rater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    I just realised one of the reasons I dislike D&D, and it's because of the wizard archetypes it allows. Specifically the way it sets up most caster classes means that I can't really play a wizard who dedicated their life to studying plant magic, or the healing arts, or a few other disciplines locked up by ;divine casters', at least until relatively high levels. Having just finished a game where I played a rather specialised plant/earth wizard (yeah, Warhammer Jade Wizard) I found the experience to be much nicer than D%D's grab bag of assorted powers I had no need to link thematically (at least Priests used to do that).

    I'm starting to like the Cleric just because it has more clear space to move into alternate archetypes, as does the Sorcerer now subclasses are getting more spells known. I really want to build a setting where Clerics are the only casters, but that basically means cutting out most of the latest edition's character classes. Maybe I could worm Warlocks and Artificers in there somewhere...
    The problem here does not lay in DND but in your DM not discussing your spell list with you and helping you reflavour and alter spells in slight ways that allows you to evoke the feeling you're searching for, so you can properly play the game.

    Not to like, put them on blast or anything. I'm sure they ran a good game. But if it was me and someone said "I want to be a plant/nature based mage" my next immediate thought would be to help them work out how to do so.


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    Though that kind of thing is why I more and more prefer freeform games over defined systems for roleplaying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Though that kind of thing is why I more and more prefer freeform games over defined systems for roleplaying.
    That's an entirely reasonable opinion, but for me I need some sort of structure to things.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    I just realised one of the reasons I dislike D&D, and it's because of the wizard archetypes it allows. Specifically the way it sets up most caster classes means that I can't really play a wizard who dedicated their life to studying plant magic, or the healing arts, or a few other disciplines locked up by ;divine casters', at least until relatively high levels. Having just finished a game where I played a rather specialised plant/earth wizard (yeah, Warhammer Jade Wizard) I found the experience to be much nicer than D%D's grab bag of assorted powers I had no need to link thematically (at least Priests used to do that).
    I don't play D&D so I'm probably missing something basic, but isn't that a druid?
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I don't play D&D so I'm probably missing something basic, but isn't that a druid?
    A Druid is either a Divine Caster(Gets powers from a deity or personified concept) or a Primal Caster(get power from nature) depending on the edition of the game.

    A wizard is an arcane caster: You spent years of you life studying and from it gained the power to manipulate the fundamental forces of reality.

    Telling someone who wants to play a nature wizard to be a druid instead is like telling someone who wants to be a brain surgeon that they should go to nursing school. While they are technically doing a lot of the same stuff, one is more prestigious(which isn't exactly fair but thems the breaks) and past the superficial similarities("both use magic" "both work in a hospital") the skill sets and expected duties are quite different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The problem here does not lay in DND but in your DM not discussing your spell list with you and helping you reflavour and alter spells in slight ways that allows you to evoke the feeling you're searching for, so you can properly play the game.

    Not to like, put them on blast or anything. I'm sure they ran a good game. But if it was me and someone said "I want to be a plant/nature based mage" my next immediate thought would be to help them work out how to do so.
    It goes a bit beyond that, the character I was playing in a campaign that just finished was a wizard, and as we are using a homebrew system and a Warhammer alternate timeline I was allowed free reign on my spells as long as I restrained myself to one lore, of which I picked Life. After deciding that the image of the most prosperous and infrastructure associated college being crazy druid types was stupid I instead presented my character as a botanist and geologist and slid firmly into the 'wizard' archetype.


    Now a good GM would also allow some modification of your spell list or a homebrew subclass with access to desired spells as a (relatively costly) feature, but D&D does put some barriers in the way and strongly hints you should conform to class archetype.

    Weirdly I'd be happier if it made archetyping stronger and made playing to it explicit. I like games which are willing to have strict classes with little crossover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Though that kind of thing is why I more and more prefer freeform games over defined systems for roleplaying.
    Eh, if defined systems have enough content and avoid too many limits it's not a massive problem, I can comfortably build whatever GURPS magician I want. But I am starting to prefer lighter systems for other reasons (number one being 'why will nobody else read the bloody book').

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I don't play D&D so I'm probably missing something basic, but isn't that a druid?
    No, druids are hard to get into because of historical context, but considering the last game I played in I was a nature-wizard who completely rejected any druidic trappings (he wore a greatcoat for warmth and kept his hair and beard neat) there is a difference. Druids are priests, you could say they're nature Clerics, and have baggage I tend not to like or want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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