Why is D&D still Medieval?

[CharonsHelper]

And D&D is utterly bad at "medieval". Hardly any of the books actually helps to flesh out a feudal society based on personal bond, privileges, titles and obligations. Instead adventurers are basically treated as the same social class whatever their background. The D&D world is full of untamed wilderness full of monsters where in medieval europe every bit of territory had its owner or might be constested by multiple ones. Power in D&D does not come from your ability to call in allies to field an army, it comes from individuals powerful enough to take on an army by themself.

Really early D&D leaned pretty heavily towards what would now be considered a "points of light" setting, with the implication that civilization's existence was somewhat on a razor's edge, and things had been better in the past. (Which is where all of the dungeons with better magic gear etc. came from.)

The Keep of the Borderlands definitely had that vibe.

Which makes sense that it couldn't really just transplant Feudalism wholesale into D&D. Historical Feudalism is based on the idea that the lord and his men are the toughest around and can keep the peasantry in line and have full control of the land. That often doesn't work so well if there are dragons and other beasties around. A lot of Feudalism is really designed to keep control of the peasantry and isn't actually the most efficient way to have a military force, which I'm not sure that you'd bother with if there are monsters to worry about. etc.

[Mutazoia]

Probably because D&D is D&D. If you want Sci-Fi there are hundreds of other options. You want your magic with a heaping side of technology? Go play Shadowrun? Or Star Wars. Or pick up a generic system and homebrew your own setting.

Kings, queens, dragons, dwarves, horses, fortresses, magic, and swords, that's what D&D is made of. You want something different, go pick up a different game.

[Satinavian]

Really early D&D leaned pretty heavily towards what would now be considered a "points of light" setting, with the implication that civilization's existence was somewhat on a razor's edge, and things had been better in the past. (Which is where all of the dungeons with better magic gear etc. came from.)

The Keep of the Borderlands definitely had that vibe.

I am aware. That is part of what i meant with postapocalyptic nonsense.

Which makes sense that it couldn't really just transplant Feudalism wholesale into D&D. Historical Feudalism is based on the idea that the lord and his men are the toughest around and can keep the peasantry in line and have full control of the land. That often doesn't work so well if there are dragons and other beasties around. A lot of Feudalism is really designed to keep control of the peasantry and isn't actually the most efficient way to have a military force, which I'm not sure that you'd bother with if there are monsters to worry about. etc.

Historical feudalism is not for keeping control of the peasantry, it is for providing protection and large scale administration for very cheap when most of your population barely produces beyond sustenance. It was a success model for a reason.
And the decentralised structure of feudalism would actually work pretty well with random monsters. The local knigth and his retainers can be there in a day to kill it and might call on local militia and if it is too big, he could call on his liege and so on. That is way better than have to move units of a centralised army all the time.

[Hopeless]

Why is d&d still medieval?

Because that's often where the game starts unless you're one of those that likes to establish how good things were BEFORE the fall like they did with Cyre in Eberron or Dale in the Hobbit.

When a game commonly starts is after that situation so you have your players understanding where they are, what they know is going on, what they can do and then ask them what do they want to do?

Its entirely possible now to have a character start off with a firearm and the means to maintain and build more ammunition but that doesn't mean they will have the funds to continue doing so and that means finding work or the means to pay for their lifestyle and occupation whether that means working as a guard or occasionally going on missions for their own livelihood.

That doesn't mean you can't run Traveller style scenarios or superhero games using d&d its just another genre you might find easier using a different game system but that's on the dm and their players.

To me the story is the most important part of the game for others its to kick somethings backside and loot their remains so they can get more powerful, rinse and repeat.

What is the most important part of d&d is to you?

[Imbalance]

I feel like most people who are asking for these wondrous magic and creature effects in their shows also skipped the Warhammer and Monster Hunter flicks which had wondrous magic and creature effects.

[Bugbear]

Can someone explain the supposed connection between movie special effects and why D&D should or should not be medieval fantasy? I seriously have no idea why the OP kept mentioning special effects.

Well, I was a bit all over the place, so I'll try to clean it up.

Most DMs, when making a campaign don't want anything even close to a before 1500 Earth setting. they want a much more 'modern' setting for society and business and trade and travel. Life in even 1500 AD was very alien to anyone alive in 2021. And that says a lot as life in even 1990 is alien to life in 2021.

Most players like a setting that is just like 2021. When a player has a character goes into a tavern, they expect it to be a hip modern place like Applebees with modern food and drinks, ice, and so on. They sure don't want a 1400 AD tavern with only local game food like birds and squirrels, things like Baby Mice Wine(this is a real thing..and then you eat the mice too) and no ice (unless it's cold wintertime).

Most players expect the Law to be a lot like the 2021 law with rights and fair treatment and lawyers....but any near historical law before, oh 1900, was...an unbelievably harsh nightmare. Tossed in a jail for no reason, chained to a wall, not given any regular food or water....yea, if your lucky.

Building even a simple house took a good amount of time back in 1400 AD, plus it likely had no glass windows, pluming, easy heating, easy waste disposal, and for sure had no electricity and machines. And things like to make a cup of tea you had to first go outside and get some water. Then go outside and get some wood and make a fire. Then heat the water, then finally make your tea. Sure is a far cry from pushing the 'tea' button on the microwave and waiting.

Most games and even settings just ignore all the 'old stuff' or just have everything almost just like 2021. When the characters stay at an inn they "just have" hot running water" in their rooms...somehow. When working a job characters somehow just get to work 9 to 5 with a lunch break and OSHA rules.

So why do the makes of D&D keep it in the "old times" when just about no one wants that?

---

So I tried to tie the above to popular culture and the way it has changed over time. In the 70's and 80's fans were fine with tough guy fights with no special effects, other then real stunts. A typical Clint Eastwood movie of the era, for example. Getting into the 90's you get the "Mortal Combat' special effects....where a character punches with a glowing fist, making a glowing arc of light and hits the foe with a glow of power. This has the cap stone of the Matrix with it's impossible martial arts. And into the 2000 and 2010 and up to today. Where far too many fights are just a mess of CGI spam. Thor does not just 'hit foes with a hammer', he lights up like a holiday tree of the fourth of July and fires off a storm of lightning bolts. Captain American even does the whole lightning bit in Avengers Endgame.

And for combat, D&D has followed. A 2E fighter could mostly just swing a weapon. By 3E they had tons of feats and classes and items. By 5E everyone has magic effects where they can use 'lightning spin whirlwind attack' in each encounter.

But the setting stays locked in "oh if your character is cold you must build a fire by hand" and it takes "years and years to construct a castle".

Why?

[Tanarii]

By 5E everyone has magic effects where they can use 'lightning spin whirlwind attack' in each encounter.

Uh, what? That's nothing like 5e.

[MoiMagnus]

So why do the makes of D&D keep it in the "old times" when just about no one wants that?

Because peoples want it. They just don't want the old times you're describing. They want their fantasied version of the old time, and don't care for historical accuracy as it is medieval fantasy.

You're focussing yourself on law, social structures, commodities, etc. They don't care about those, and that's why they use modern equivalents. You don't need to introduce modern concept, so they are the default.

They want to play in a universe where the main weapon is the sword, peoples live in castles, and wilderness is still very present.

If you want to describe what is medieval fantasy, especially what it means for newer generations, I think that World of Warcraft is a better starting point than any work of literature (including LotR).

[Luccan]

Another important factor is that both TSR and WotC have had separate RPG products from mainline D&D for other genres. Despite D&D's occasional genre mixing, as noted previously, changing everything to be, say, a nuclear apocalypse game wouldn't have even made sense prior to 4e. They had other games for that.

[kyoryu]

D&D is actually a medieval Western, with gunslingers and saloon towns, not a pseudo-medieval settings. Notice the general lack of farming or population? Tatooine and Forgotten Realms have more in common with Stagecoach then they do to Heinlein or mythology.

Somewhere between a western and a post-apocalyptic setting.

Look at Mad Max - isolated towns holding their walls against an untamed and uncivilized wilderness. Sounds about right. It's just a post apocalypse at medieval tech level.

At least in the initial versions, the dungeons and how spells were acquired made more sense from the perspective of people scrabbling for existence on the ruins of a previous, more advanced, society. A lot of artifacts/etc. kinda point this way too.

[Tanarii]

Somewhere between a western and a post-apocalyptic setting.

Look at Mad Max - isolated towns holding their walls against an untamed and uncivilized wilderness. Sounds about right. It's just a post apocalypse at medieval tech level.

At least in the initial versions, the dungeons and how spells were acquired made more sense from the perspective of people scrabbling for existence on the ruins of a previous, more advanced, society. A lot of artifacts/etc. kinda point this way too.

I mean, that's exactly what the Middle Ages were, at least in pop culture. Post-apocalyptic collapse of the world empire, with invading hordes from the outside trying to finish the deal. Or, yknow, descendants of the initial hordes defending against the next invading horde.

[Telok]

Another important factor is that both TSR and WotC have had separate RPG products from mainline D&D for other genres. Despite D&D's occasional genre mixing, as noted previously, changing everything to be, say, a nuclear apocalypse game wouldn't have even made sense prior to 4e. They had other games for that.

Well, back in TSR times Gamma World and D&D were close enough that crossover adventures were very easy to do and players didn't have to change character sheets or learn new rules to take the trip. And early on in the WotC days Alternity originally looked like it was shaping up that way.

TSR's setting & offshoot game spam had some issues, but it did put out some real gems that people still use 30 years later. WotC's 30 year legacy is looking like its going to be Ebberon and the 3.5s Bo9S splat. Everything since has been increasingly restrained and limited. That's probably better for the business cost/return accounting, but people who like more variety than a "faux-dark ages with plate armor & superhero spell casters" are spending time & money elsewhere.

[Satinavian]

Well, I was a bit all over the place, so I'll try to clean it up.

Most DMs, when making a campaign don't want anything even close to a before 1500 Earth setting. they want a much more 'modern' setting for society and business and trade and travel. Life in even 1500 AD was very alien to anyone alive in 2021. And that says a lot as life in even 1990 is alien to life in 2021.

Most players like a setting that is just like 2021. When a player has a character goes into a tavern, they expect it to be a hip modern place like Applebees with modern food and drinks, ice, and so on. They sure don't want a 1400 AD tavern with only local game food like birds and squirrels, things like Baby Mice Wine(this is a real thing..and then you eat the mice too) and no ice (unless it's cold wintertime).

Most players expect the Law to be a lot like the 2021 law with rights and fair treatment and lawyers....but any near historical law before, oh 1900, was...an unbelievably harsh nightmare. Tossed in a jail for no reason, chained to a wall, not given any regular food or water....yea, if your lucky.

Building even a simple house took a good amount of time back in 1400 AD, plus it likely had no glass windows, pluming, easy heating, easy waste disposal, and for sure had no electricity and machines. And things like to make a cup of tea you had to first go outside and get some water. Then go outside and get some wood and make a fire. Then heat the water, then finally make your tea. Sure is a far cry from pushing the 'tea' button on the microwave and waiting.

Most games and even settings just ignore all the 'old stuff' or just have everything almost just like 2021. When the characters stay at an inn they "just have" hot running water" in their rooms...somehow. When working a job characters somehow just get to work 9 to 5 with a lunch break and OSHA rules.

So why do the makes of D&D keep it in the "old times" when just about no one wants that?

Your experiences seem to be very different from mine. At all of my tables people actually are playing as if at setting appropriate tech levels and are fully aware of all the differences.

[Willie the Duck]

Spoiler: Most DMs, when making a campaign don't want anything even close to a before 1500 Earth setting.

Show

they want a much more 'modern' setting for society and business and trade and travel. Life in even 1500 AD was very alien to anyone alive in 2021. And that says a lot as life in even 1990 is alien to life in 2021.
Most players like a setting that is just like 2021. When a player has a character goes into a tavern, they expect it to be a hip modern place like Applebees with modern food and drinks, ice, and so on. They sure don't want a 1400 AD tavern with only local game food like birds and squirrels, things like Baby Mice Wine(this is a real thing..and then you eat the mice too) and no ice (unless it's cold wintertime).
Most players expect the Law to be a lot like the 2021 law with rights and fair treatment and lawyers....but any near historical law before, oh 1900, was...an unbelievably harsh nightmare. Tossed in a jail for no reason, chained to a wall, not given any regular food or water....yea, if your lucky.
Building even a simple house took a good amount of time back in 1400 AD, plus it likely had no glass windows, pluming, easy heating, easy waste disposal, and for sure had no electricity and machines. And things like to make a cup of tea you had to first go outside and get some water. Then go outside and get some wood and make a fire. Then heat the water, then finally make your tea. Sure is a far cry from pushing the 'tea' button on the microwave and waiting.

Most games and even settings just ignore all the 'old stuff' or just have everything almost just like 2021. When the characters stay at an inn they "just have" hot running water" in their rooms...somehow. When working a job characters somehow just get to work 9 to 5 with a lunch break and OSHA rules.

There is quite a lot of assumption about what ‘most’ people want with which I fundamentally do not agree. I don’t think there are a lot of people that want their D&D taverns to be Applebees (wait, you consider Applebees to be hip?) or to have plumbing, or anything else. I think this misrepresents other gamers to a huge degree. What I do think is accurate is that a lot of people want the differences between now and the past to be relatively straightforward. Using your tea water example-- that tea water is heated over a fire is taken as a granted; that tea might not be the beverage of choice maybe – maybe a group doesn’t care. Same with construction – yes people recognize that indoor plumbing and glass windows wouldn’t be a thing, but do they care overly about thinking through that downstream ramifications of that? Well, depends on the group.
I think that feeds into Tanarii’s point about “Middle Ages were, at least in pop culture.” – people want (and I am also leaning heavily into generalization here) want ‘the Middle Ages, but sufficiently divorced from the truth as to 1) be exceedingly convenient to facilitating activities that the PCs want to do (travel about the countryside to conveniently located subterranean combat funhouses lined with traps, treasures, and troglodytes), and 2) facilitating to a variety of pop culture power fantasies (so swords and spells and arrows and armor because that can facilitate knights errant, Merlin-eque mages, swashbucklers, skulking rogues, pirates, or if you allow some cultural genre mixing samurai and ninja as well).

So why do the makes of D&D keep it in the "old times" when just about no one wants that?

Seriously, what don’t they want? Do they not want to have to roleplay their PCs doing their business in the pre-indoor plumbing era? Sure. Likewise, if the game were sci fi, very few games treat going into space (much less interplanetary travel, or space combat, or anything else) entirely realistically. This isn’t more true for medieval fantasy than any other form of fiction.

So I tried to tie the above to popular culture and the way it has changed over time. In the 70's and 80's fans were fine with tough guy fights with no special effects, other then real stunts. A typical Clint Eastwood movie of the era, for example. Getting into the 90's you get the "Mortal Combat' special effects....where a character punches with a glowing fist, making a glowing arc of light and hits the foe with a glow of power. This has the cap stone of the Matrix with it's impossible martial arts. And into the 2000 and 2010 and up to today. Where far too many fights are just a mess of CGI spam. Thor does not just 'hit foes with a hammer', he lights up like a holiday tree of the fourth of July and fires off a storm of lightning bolts. Captain American even does the whole lightning bit in Avengers Endgame.

You are mixing genres for this comparison. Clint Eastwood was a western (also, 20th century western movies were chock full of anachronisms). Modern westerns might CG out the starbuck cups and modern buildings in the background, but would otherwise be much the same. Sci fi and superhero movies of the time used high tech special effects of their relevant time. Christopher Reeve chroma key flying looks pretty tame nowadays since your average local weather forecaster uses the same technology, but it is hi tech special effects of the time just the same. There was 'high tech special effects' then, and 'high tech special effects now.

And for combat, D&D has followed. A 2E fighter could mostly just swing a weapon. By 3E they had tons of feats and classes and items. By 5E everyone has magic effects where they can use 'lightning spin whirlwind attack' in each encounter.

Very much not the case. In 2e the fighter didn’t have any in-built expendable resource mechanics* like a 5e battlemaster fighter might have in ‘superiority dice,’ but they were much more likely to have a whole bevvy of magic items with X/day abilities, or similar. Beyond that, magic users have existed in the game since before it was fully D&D, and they have always had such things. The overall distance between oD&D and 3e or 5e is trivial, when including nonmedieval fantasy games into the comparison.

[Garimeth]

What would be amazing would be if they did Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive.

Agreed! I'd hate to have them do it before he finishes though. I would totally not mind seeing the original Mistborn done though, as long as it wasn't some low-budget affair.

[Tanarii]

Agreed! I'd hate to have them do it before he finishes though. I would totally not mind seeing the original Mistborn done though, as long as it wasn't some low-budget affair.

Agreed, as asoiaf demonstrated, starting a show before the series is done is a recipe for ruining the book series.

Mistborn would be pretty cool too. And really should come before stormlight anyway.

[Anonymouswizard]

Aren't there like seven Mistborn books in the 'coming soon, but not that soon' phase? It's pretty much the only Sanderson series I'm still interested in though, and even own the game (interesting little system).

On the thread topic, it's not like there isn't competition in the fantasy RPG market, my copy of Advanced Fighting Fantasy arrived today and my copy of Jaxckals arrives tomorrow. Sot it's certainly a market people are interested in, and as people want to play this D&D they've heard so much about it has little reason to change (even if many games are so much better).

[Garimeth]

Aren't there like seven Mistborn books in the 'coming soon, but not that soon' phase? It's pretty much the only Sanderson series I'm still interested in though, and even own the game (interesting little system).

There is, but I think the first trilogy is contained enough to do on its own. The Alloy of Law western style stuff could be neat too.

TBH though, ALOT happens in just that first book. You could make just that first book into a trilogy of movies.

[SandyAndy]

Why do they need to update it? Why not just flavor it your way. I run a space campaign and the magic is just people being mentally linked to the machinery in such a complex way that the common man can't really grasp how it works. Do all the same things only in space, and an added bonus is that if I don't want them using a certain spell then I can come up with an in-game reason pretty quick.

[t209]

And D&D is utterly bad at "medieval". Hardly any of the books actually helps to flesh out a feudal society based on personal bond, privileges, titles and obligations. Instead adventurers are basically treated as the same social class whatever their background. The D&D world is full of untamed wilderness full of monsters where in medieval europe every bit of territory had its owner or might be constested by multiple ones. Power in D&D does not come from your ability to call in allies to field an army, it comes from individuals powerful enough to take on an army by themself.

I think they try to do that with Birthright and AD&D Oriental Adventure, the latter being controversial for associating that aspect with Faux-Asian culture (or the misfortune of trying to make an expansion pack while compromising with Zeb Cook's want for his fondness of Kung Fu and Samurai movies, also maybe Gygax's "human-centric sword-and-sorcery fantasy" against the demihuman-heavy Tolkienian fantasy genre by his colleagues if you believe the story that he had to be "encouraged" to include Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings).

[Theodoxus]

Somewhere between a western and a post-apocalyptic setting.

Look at Mad Max - isolated towns holding their walls against an untamed and uncivilized wilderness. Sounds about right. It's just a post apocalypse at medieval tech level.

At least in the initial versions, the dungeons and how spells were acquired made more sense from the perspective of people scrabbling for existence on the ruins of a previous, more advanced, society. A lot of artifacts/etc. kinda point this way too.

This is so deeply ingrained, when I started worldbuilding my own campaign, I originally thought of going with an 'in the beginning' type setting, where the campaign was basically ~50 years or so after the gods had formed everything and then left with fledgling humanoid races vying for land and glory... and then I quickly realized that there weren't any bones of old civilizations to explore, nor dungeons to explore... just vast regions of untamed wilderness... and I wasn't really interested in running a Kingmaker style campaign just then.

So, I fast-forwarded my own world, generating histories, civilizations and civ-ending events and plopped my players into a half-baked world that was still cooling out of the oven. They enjoyed it, but they really got a kick when I fast-forwarded again and their next campaign took place on the bones of their previous campaign's civilization! When they went dungeon delving and found themselves walking the streets of the city they had helped build up... the shock on their faces was priceless. Whenever we get over this Covid crap, I've already advanced the world again, now with a more overt post-apoc feel... I suspect they'll once again run around looking for clues to their former character's lives. I can't wait.

[t209]

Interesting that you say DnD being based on elements of wild west but in medieval fantasy.
I kinda had the idea, but with less arid desert and more "a local sheriff or mayor called you up for deputies and helping out", "place where outlaws and exiles can make fresh start", or "forming rangers, as in cowboy law enforcement than character class".

[Roger_Druid]

Hi all!

Whereas, of course, once upon a time TSR tried... Amazing Machine (TSR 2700s):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Engine

Roger Druid

[KillianHawkeye]

I mean, I'll obviously agree that big budget special effects driven action movies have gotten bigger and better special effects over the last two or three decades.

But for every flashy X-Men or Avengers movie, there's a Jason Bourne or Mission Impossible or The Expendables that's totally focused on nitty gritty fist fights, shoot outs, and gasoline explosions. For every character throwing around a lightning hammer or a laser sword, there are dozens of characters who are CIA operatives or buddy cop duos or retired ex-military/mercenary types. For every film about a giant monster or wacky space army, there are probably a hundred about casino heists, spy thrillers, organized crime, or modern depictions of war.

[Lord Raziere]

If you want to describe what is medieval fantasy, especially what it means for newer generations, I think that World of Warcraft is a better starting point than any work of literature (including LotR).

As former WoW player, I find it ironic that WoW of all things is being held up as a medieval standard.

WoW is full of technology beyond medieval era:
-gnomes just to start has the entire city of Gnomeregan full of gears, radiation, robots and the like
-there are airships between continents made by goblins
-in Burning Crusade we had the Draenei crashing in a space ship and Outland instances of Draenei tech being more advanced
-goblins eventually became the Horde's tech base to even them out with the gnomes with rockets and explosives and by the time of Cataclysm both sides basically had modern planes and vehicles, musket rifles, cannons and robots to fight each other with
-Azeroth is full of Titan ruins which have more advanced technology
-the Burning Legion is a basically a space fleet of demons traveling the stars to destroy all of existence
-you the player can craft things like dynamite, bombs, helicopters, motorcycles, guns, goggles, various toy-like inventions and so on
-by the time of Battle for Azeroth, the Alliance basically has a spaceship beyond anything the horde can make that can cause massive destruction, I forget how much but people complained that if people remembered it existed, the Alliance would basically win.
-like there is just multiple kinds of technology, magitech and so on going on in WoW: goblin tech, gnome tech, titan tech, demon magitech, blood elf magitech, human/dwarf/gnome combined built tech, forsaken tech, draenei/naaru tech, not only it is in a lot of places, much of it just seems to work on completely different principles without any explanation why there are so many ways to become an advanced technological society.

like there is tech in a lot of places, its just very very schizo and inconsistent. one storyline you'll be doing a quest that makes sense for a wandering adventurer with little tech base. next you'll be in a modern war story piloting some machine for the alliance or horde war effort as if your on the front as apart of the military. another story you'll do some weird magical solution when you just came out of a quest that might invalidate the need it with some gadget. like your statement might've been true back when WoW came out, but these days its pretty all over the place in terms of technological capability.

[MoiMagnus]

but these days its pretty all over the place in terms of technological capability.

That's also the case for D&D if you include the different settings. Both D&D and WoW hover around the different variation of medieval fantasy (sometimes forgetting the medieval part), it's just that WoW put them in different regions while D&D put them in different books (and the different settings might or might not be part of the same multiverse).

[Lord Raziere]

That's also the case for D&D if you include the different settings. Both D&D and WoW hover around the different variation of medieval fantasy (sometimes forgetting the medieval part), it's just that WoW put them in different regions while D&D put them in different books (and the different settings might or might not be part of the same multiverse).

Eeeeeeeeeh....

I dunno. maybe its because I don't have much visual representation of DnD vs. WoW since I only have still pictures of DnD stuff versus WoW being an entire digital world, but to me DnD just doesn't have that level of technological insanity. Eberron is pretty minimalist with the author explicitly writing against steampunk or guns, Spelljammer I couldn't read through for some reason but it seems to center around mostly the spelljammer with nothing much else being advanced, and I don't have much knowledge of other settings to really say anything about them. overall DnD or at least many of the DMs who run it are pretty against guns or other tech is the impression I got from people talking about this, so my picture of DnD as a whole is being more medieval than WoW.

like its one thing to say they're similar, but I'm not convinced. I need more than that to really believe it.

[Scots Dragon]

Dungeons & Dragons retains the heroic fantasy standard because it is and always has been a heroic fantasy game. All this talk about science fiction that got popular, but it ignores stuff like Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, the Witcher, and countless anime (the entire Isekai genre), cartoons (Dragon Prince), novels, comics, etc.

And of course the enduring popularity of D&D itself in the pseudo medieval heroic fantasy form it most commonly takes. Why wouldn’t it remain as it was?

Other games exist to scratch different itches. If I wanted something like the Matrix, I’d be playing Shadowrun. If I wanted space opera, I’d play Traveller or WEG Star Wars.

D&D is where I get my swords and castles and wizards and weird monsters fix.

[Mutazoia]

If you want Sci-Fi in your D&D, you really should just go play Starfinder.

[kyoryu]

This is so deeply ingrained, when I started worldbuilding my own campaign, I originally thought of going with an 'in the beginning' type setting, where the campaign was basically ~50 years or so after the gods had formed everything and then left with fledgling humanoid races vying for land and glory... and then I quickly realized that there weren't any bones of old civilizations to explore, nor dungeons to explore... just vast regions of untamed wilderness... and I wasn't really interested in running a Kingmaker style campaign just then.

So, I fast-forwarded my own world, generating histories, civilizations and civ-ending events and plopped my players into a half-baked world that was still cooling out of the oven. They enjoyed it, but they really got a kick when I fast-forwarded again and their next campaign took place on the bones of their previous campaign's civilization! When they went dungeon delving and found themselves walking the streets of the city they had helped build up... the shock on their faces was priceless. Whenever we get over this Covid crap, I've already advanced the world again, now with a more overt post-apoc feel... I suspect they'll once again run around looking for clues to their former character's lives. I can't wait.

I played in a game in the 90s where there were two games running - one was in the "Kingmaker" period, effectively, and the other was the later game.

I've actually considered running a game like that, where there were various periods of history (empire building, the rise of the decadent empire, the fall of the decadent empire, the immediate post-apocalyptic period, and the later "recovery" period), where the last would be the closest to "typical" D&D. I figured starting with the last would be the most interesting. Never got it off the ground, though.