Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

[Millstone85]

I just came across this compilation of Chris Perkins and Planescape: Torment pronouncing Sigil with a hard G.

So it is official that the city isn't pronounced the same as the symbol. Some characters even take offense if you forget that.

We can excuse the fact that you slaughtered two yugoloths before you realized where you were, outsider, but you pronounced the name of our fair city 'Sijil,' not 'Sigil,' and there can be no excuse for that!

But how is it actually played, in your experience? Did you follow or ignore "Siggle" lore?

Bonus question: And you, fellow French players, have you ever played in "Siguil"?

[Mastikator]

To me Sigil is one of those things that only exists on the internet, I thought it was Sijil but I guess Sigil with a hard g is the correct way to say it. Sounds kinda ugly though.

[Xervous]

Sounds kinda ugly though.

Similar to Jif as a file extension?

[Millstone85]

Similar to Jif as a file extension?

I found a GIF of a gith fighting a giff bearing the sigil of a faction of Sigil.

[Lacco]

Sidžil.

What...?

[RedMage125]

The confusion arises because "sigil" as in "the floor of the wizard's lab contained a summoning circle lined with arcane sigils for conjuration and abjuration"...that is pronounced "sijil".

"Sigil" as in "the City of Doors" is correctly pronounced "siggle".

It does sound ugly.

But so does pronouncing "Demogorgon" as "DEE-mo-gor-gun". But that's what's technically correct.

Planar stuff often has weird pronunciation. I go with official sources as much as possible. The Baldur's Gate games were what helped me learn to pronounce "drow" (rhymes with "how", as in "how do you do?"), "tiefling" (TEE-fling), and "genasi" ("gen-AH-see", hard "g").

As an aside, "GIF" as a file extension...I know the guy who made them said it's pronounced "jif", but the first letter stands for "graphic", not "juraphic".

[Eldan]

I just don't care about how English people pronounce obviously non-English stuff like Demogorgon. That's a perfectly phonetic word with a pretty clear etymology. I mean, if we let English speaker have their say, we'd pronounce Acheron as Esheron and Asgard as Æsgard.

Same for Sigil. Sijil is weird. Though, to be fair, Siggle is even weirder and it never occured to me before today that anyone could pronounce it like that.

[Unavenger]

I just came across this compilation of Chris Perkins and Planescape: Torment pronouncing Sigil with a hard G.

So it is official that the city isn't pronounced the same as the symbol. Some characters even take offense if you forget that.

But how is it actually played, in your experience? Did you follow or ignore "Siggle" lore?

Bonus question: And you, fellow French players, have you ever played in "Siguil"?

I always pronounced the symbol with a soft G but the city with a hard G - mainly because I heard it spoken before I saw it written down, so I copied the correct pronunciation.

[KillianHawkeye]

I've always pronounced it with a hard G because that's how the guys in my first D&D group said it the first time I ever heard of Planescape.

[Lord Raziere]

I call it Sijil no matter what people say or think it is. Thats what it is to me and those inhabitants who insist otherwise can deal with it, insisting on proper pronunciation is on par with those peoples who insist on linguistic purity in terms of not mattering.

[icefractal]

I always thought it was "Sijil" (pronunciation-wise), and that still sounds better to me, but in fact I think I've only discussed it in writing, not speech.

[Tanarii]

Sigil not sijil. OTOH I mispronounce the word sijil as sigil anyway, so it already sounds "correct" to me. Like many D&D words, they're ones you never hear in real life, so it's easy to get them wrong when you only ever read them.

As a teen I spent an entire session calling the alcoves in a module "ack-lowves" before my friends had enough and corrected me.

is it Vaas or vayce?
Is it Bra-zier or Bray-zer?
Is it boo-lay or bull-ette?

(About the only one that gets my goat is when people call dark elves drough instead of drow.)

[ImNotTrevor]

In this thread:
The GitP forum discovers linguistics for the first time.

Ok guys, I have shocking news for you:
The idea of each word having one objectively correct pronunciation is LAUGHABLE. And in many instances, wrong.

For instance, the following word:
Crayon.
Some pronounce it "CRAY-on"
Some pronounce it "Cran"

Both are correct.

How about "Coupon?"
Some pronounce it "COOP-on"
Some pronounce it "KYOO-pon"

Again, both are correct.

How about the ever-debated "GIF?"
Welp, according to how linguists do things, (Go look at how people say it, and then describe how people actually pronounce it) the most common is hard-G "GIF", by a fairly big margin.
"JIF" is in second place
And pronouncing it "G-I-F," letter-by-letter is the rarest.

So you'll get fewer odd looks with hard G. But those top two are still both correct for now. The bottom one is weird but probably not wrong.

[KillianHawkeye]

For instance, the following word:
Crayon.
Some pronounce it "CRAY-on"
Some pronounce it "Cran"

Both are correct.

How about "Coupon?"
Some pronounce it "COOP-on"
Some pronounce it "KYOO-pon"

Again, both are correct.

I object! On the grounds that "cran" and "kyoopon" are both ridiculous.

[Mastikator]

In this thread:
The GitP forum discovers linguistics for the first time.

Ok guys, I have shocking news for you:
The idea of each word having one objectively correct pronunciation is LAUGHABLE. And in many instances, wrong.

For instance, the following word:
[examples]
So you'll get fewer odd looks with hard G. But those top two are still both correct for now. The bottom one is weird but probably not wrong.

If there's no wrong way to pronounce a word then maybe there can be no rong waj to spell them aythr?

[Seto]

I've always pronounced it with a soft "dj". And in French, as "Sigille", as in "vigile".

[GeoffWatson]

If they wanted it pronounced with a hard g, they should spell it differently from the real word that is pronounced with a soft g.

[Taffimai]

If they wanted it pronounced with a hard g, they should spell it differently from the real word that is pronounced with a soft g.

My thoughts exactly. There are so many options: Siggil, Síguil, even Sigill (because fish have gills not jills)... This isn't a case of a city name that has existed for hundreds of years where the original spelling is still kept even though the pronunciation has evolved over time, it was knowingly created in a language with non-transparent orthography. Imo if you're creating a situation where casual fans are highly likely to mispronounce your fictional name and those more familiar with the work must either put up with that or sound like pedants, then you're committing a creator faux pas.

[RedMage125]

Sigil not sijil. OTOH I mispronounce the word sijil as sigil anyway, so it already sounds "correct" to me. Like many D&D words, they're ones you never hear in real life, so it's easy to get them wrong when you only ever read them.

As a teen I spent an entire session calling the alcoves in a module "ack-lowves" before my friends had enough and corrected me.

is it Vaas or vayce?
Is it Bra-zier or Bray-zer?
Is it boo-lay or bull-ette?

(About the only one that gets my goat is when people call dark elves drough instead of drow.)

I just had someone the other day talking about Simulacrum (pronounced it "simm-ul-AY-crum"). Had to remind them that it's the same root word as "simulate" or "simulation". If anyone's curious, it's "si-myuh-LA-kruhm".

Brazier is "brei-zhr". It's not supposed to sound like "brassiere".

Bulette, according to the 2e Monstrous Manual, is pronounced "boo-lay". That's the only pronunciation I've ever noticed in an official book.

And I must confess I used to say "drough". Baldur's Gate 2 made me realize I was wrong. There was an official pronunciation guide on the old wotc site back in the day. I, regrettably, no loner have the link.

In this thread:
The GitP forum discovers linguistics for the first time.

Ok guys, I have shocking news for you:
The idea of each word having one objectively correct pronunciation is LAUGHABLE. And in many instances, wrong.

For instance, the following word:
Crayon.
Some pronounce it "CRAY-on"
Some pronounce it "Cran"

Both are correct.

Nope. Neither is "crown" (and yes, some people say it like that).

It's "KREI-aan".

Webster's Dictionary is very specific about that. Other pronunciations are due to regional dialect differences. Variations of a correct way to pronounce a word.

Saying "both are correct" or "there's no correct way to pronounce a word" is like saying "there's no such thing as an accent". Hell, I'm from Michigan, and like most Michiganders, when I say the word "both", it comes out sounding kind of like there's an "L" in it ("bolth"). Does that mean it's "correct" to put an invisible L in the word? No. It's a regional dialect. And it's just how it sounds. Michiganders tend to use a lot of nasal cavity resonating in our pronunciation. Has something to do with the humidity of the region.

How about "Coupon?"
Some pronounce it "COOP-on"
Some pronounce it "KYOO-pon"

Again, both are correct.

Also wrong. One does not drive a "kyoop" De Ville. One does not overthrow a ruler in a "kyoop" (or "kyoo") d'etat. A "Blow of Mercy" is not a "kyoop" or "kyoo" de grace*. It's pronounced "Koo-pon".

*On that note, the last word of that is not pronounced "grah". "Coup De Grace" is not pronounced "koo de grah". THAT would be spelled "Coup De Gras", and would mean "Blow Of Fat". "Coup De Grace" means "Blow Of Mercy" and is pronounced "koo de grahs".

How about the ever-debated "GIF?"
Welp, according to how linguists do things, (Go look at how people say it, and then describe how people actually pronounce it) the most common is hard-G "GIF", by a fairly big margin.
"JIF" is in second place
And pronouncing it "G-I-F," letter-by-letter is the rarest.

So you'll get fewer odd looks with hard G. But those top two are still both correct for now. The bottom one is weird but probably not wrong.

This one caused debate, because it is an acronym. I still maintain that pronouncing the letter that stands for a "hard G" word with a "soft G" is...bizarre, if not blatantly stupid, but I can't find any fault with saying "G-I-F" letter by letter.

[Yuki Akuma]

Fun fact: trying to spell things out phonetically just using normal letters doesn't work, because different dialects and accents pronounce those letter combinations differently than you do. Use the IPA, guys. Or just stop trying to do this.

Anyway, yeah, words can be pronounced differently, but place names generally have one accepted pronounciation in any given language.

You'd be more used to this if you lived in the UK, I'd wager.

Source: I actually went to college for this stuff.

[Unavenger]

My thoughts exactly. There are so many options: Siggil, Síguil, even Sigill (because fish have gills not jills)... This isn't a case of a city name that has existed for hundreds of years where the original spelling is still kept even though the pronunciation has evolved over time, it was knowingly created in a language with non-transparent orthography. Imo if you're creating a situation where casual fans are highly likely to mispronounce your fictional name and those more familiar with the work must either put up with that or sound like pedants, then you're committing a creator faux pas.

Weirdly, even WotC themselves now have a policy of ignoring the origins of the words when they decide on the pronunciations of places, which is why you get M:tG planes like Ixalan (Pronounced "IX-a-lon" rather than "EE-sha-lon") and Ravnica (Pronounced "RAV-ni-ca" rather than "Rav-NEETS-a").

I still maintain that pronouncing the letter that stands for a "hard G" word with a "soft G" is...bizarre, if not blatantly stupid

The S in laser stands for a word beginning with a soft S but I have never heard anyone pronounce it "Lacer" rather than "Lazer" under any circumstances for as long as I've lived. I pronounce it gif rather than jif too, but the logic here is clearly faulty.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GeoffWatson
If they wanted it pronounced with a hard g, they should spell it differently from the real word that is pronounced with a soft g.

Yeah, this.

I have a feeling that the hard-g variant was a mispronunciation that became fixed for some reason—probably because, like Tanarii, someone hadn’t heard it spoken before, and they ended up reinforcing it in their social circle.

Although that quote from the Planescape Campaign Setting seems more than a little tongue-in-cheek, approaching GotG levels, so I wonder if they’re just not making fun of their own mispronunciation. I know very little about Planescape, but it never occurred to me not to pronounce it with a soft g, just like the real word.

Originally Posted by Unavenger
Weirdly, even WotC themselves now have a policy of ignoring the origins of the words when they decide on the pronunciations of places, which is why you get M:tG planes like Ixalan (Pronounced "IX-a-lon" rather than "EE-sha-lon") and Ravnica (Pronounced "RAV-ni-ca" rather than "Rav-NEETS-a").

As policies go that’s not too impressive, although I do wonder if one blog post counts as a comprehensive statement.

But something like Ixalan, which so plainly echoes Nahuatl, is almost made ridiculous by the “official” mispronunciation. There’s an opportunity here to give people an introduction to the real-world inspiration behind the lore, but they seem to be going for the lowest common denominator.

For instance, I assumed Ravnica was something like "rav-NEEK-ah," since I've never heard it pronounced by anyone; but "rav-NEETS-a" sounds much more interesting. That gives it a little more depth than just a random fantasy word.

[anthon]

Sick Jill sans 'ck'

I ran Planescape when it came out, had all the box sets - even the many useless ones - and the audio disk. Sigil like the idea of a symbol. Rhymes with Vigil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigil

one of the best designed settings in the history of AD&D. It managed to do what Spelljammer tried to do, but failed, and what Ravenloft managed to do by pissing off players - without pissing off players:

gather a bunch of people from different campaign settings together into a new, strangely familiar, but somehow unique world.

Sigil was like the Gaming Convention version of a Setting, complete with cosplay.

[RedMage125]

The S in laser stands for a word beginning with a soft S but I have never heard anyone pronounce it "Lacer" rather than "Lazer" under any circumstances for as long as I've lived. I pronounce it gif rather than jif too, but the logic here is clearly faulty.

Wait a tick. Can you name even ONE word that starts with an "S" that uses a "z" sound?

But when used in the middle of a word (like "laser"), a single "s" can sometimes have that sound.

[Tanarii]

Wait a tick. Can you name even ONE word that starts with an "S" that uses a "z" sound?

But when used in the middle of a word (like "laser"), a single "s" can sometimes have that sound.

Not to mention plenty of people say "Lay-ser" and not "Lay-zer". I've even heard it pronounced something like "Lay-shure".

[Millstone85]

I have a feeling that the hard-g variant was a mispronunciation that became fixed for some reason—probably because, like Tanarii, someone hadn’t heard it spoken before, and they ended up reinforcing it in their social circle. Although that quote from the Planescape Campaign Setting seems more than a little tongue-in-cheek, approaching GotG levels, so I wonder if they’re just not making fun of their own mispronunciation.

I read somewhere that it is exactly what happened. The Planescape writers made the hard g canon as an in-joke regarding someone on the team.

[137beth]

I've always pronounced Sigil with a soft G.

[Luccan]

If there's no wrong way to pronounce a word then maybe there can be no rong waj to spell them aythr?

Historically speaking, no, not as long as people knew what you meant. Before we started printing dictionaries that could be spread all over the place it was very hard to get consistent spellings, even from people who wrote a lot. Even for their own names.

Edit: I've always pronounced it like sijil, like the word (at least how it is for English speakers I've known). I don't think I'd make that big a deal out of it, but if I'm running Planescape I'm not going to have anyone complain about how it's really pronounced. That's obnoxious enough in real life. I assume people don't know how the city's name is "really" said because the early material didn't come with a pronunciation guide.

[SleepyShadow]

Since I'm currently running a Planescape game, I have NPCs pronounce it both "Siggle" and "Sijil", and some of them get cranky if you "mispronounce" it

[Eldan]

The original Latin has a hard g. So that's what I use. Don't care what English does.