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2021-02-06, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- In my library
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Oh god, don't get me started on 'genie' and 'djinni' having two separate meanings in D&D. One's just a corruption of the other. Which goes mean it should logically be a soft g there.
You've never seen the 'how is drow pronounced' thread, have you? Rhymes with bow, for the record.
Actually I think we've had more than one of those? Gygax apparently used a shorter o, so it rhymed with know, but the longer o to rhyme with plough might actually be more common.
Did you know that the Clan in Vampire the Masquerade is pronounced Brew-zhah? Even Bloodlines gets that one wrong but it's specified in the 1e core.
The one I see often is mispronouncing 'daemon' as 'demon'. Which is not without precedent, see encyclopaedia, so I'll switch to demon if corrected, but it's notably widespread (the word is technically 'day-mun' with a short u, at least in my accent).
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2021-02-06, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2020
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- Right behind you
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Well, I think we all agree it rhymes with bow; we just might disagree on whether it's bow, the weapon, or bow, the courtly movement to greet someone. I always went with the latter.
Personally, I pronounce it "SI-gill", as in fish gills. "Sijil" still sounds way better than "Siggle" though, in my opinion.Last edited by Taevyr; 2021-02-06 at 07:44 PM.
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2021-02-06, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
The point I was making is that the way a word is used in the word whose initial is part of the acronym has no bearing on the actual pronunciation in that acronym, which still stands.
...Not that this has any real bearing on "Sigil" anyway, although much of the rest of the gif discussion (like trying to find words like "give", "gift", "giant" or "giraffe" and then realising that they don't really support a precedent one way or the other) is more pertinent to this discussion.
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2021-02-06, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
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- The Old West
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
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2021-02-06, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Personally, I pronounce it as rhyming with "giggle" - both because that matches the seriousness of Planescape, and because a magic sigil is something that is already a thing.
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2021-02-06, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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- Sharangar's Revenge
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Sigil the city in Planescape? I rhyme it with giggle.
Sigil the magical rune: gets the 'j' sound. Rhymes with vigil.
Drow: Yes, I know BG II rhymed it with cow, but I rhyme it with snow.
Here's the link to the old thread Anonymous Wizard was talking about: Drow like snow
(It's dead, so don't post in it unless you want a Thread Necromancy warning from the Mods.)Last edited by Lord Torath; 2021-02-06 at 09:30 PM.
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My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2021-02-06, 09:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Actually, Genie is probably from Latin Genius, so it is different from Arabic Jinn.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2021-02-07, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Again, linguistically speaking, the idea that a made-up fantasy word has a."correct pronunciation" is as hilarious as it is incorrect.
Language doesn't care how the creator wanted it pronounced. That's not how it works.
If people pronounce Drow so it rhymes with "Snow" or rhymes with "Plow," at this point both are probably right. So long as you know what they're talking about, all is well.
Getting into a tiff over which way is "correct" is kind of a holdout from a lot of... iffy and uncomfortable historical information about the English Language.
(Ain't was perfectly acceptable,.high-brow English for nearly 100 years. Then the poors started using it too much and it was removed from proper English. I wish I was joking.)
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2021-02-07, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
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2021-02-07, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- I'm on a boat!
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Well, D&D appropriated the word "genie" to be the greater umbrella under which "djinni", "efreeti" and "marids" are related.
D&D appropriated lots of words. "Medusa" shoudl not be a creature type, and should not be plural, if you want to get down to it.
And I see your point about genasi, but that's the way it's pronounced in official sources.
I did not know that. I was still new to VtM when I played Bloodlines. I've always assumed "BROO-hah" was correct.
And yet, "S" isn't ever really "soft" like "G" is. It's always a hard consonant sound. When you say "hard G", you really just mean "G that sounds like a G" as opposed to "G that sounds like a J". Or how a "C" is either "sounds like a K" or "sounds like an S", or "combined with another letter to make a new sound (like CH)".
Also, this:
Actually, that's exactly how that works. Especially if you are referring to it within the same wheelhouse as the creator intended it for.
If I was talking about Harry Potter lore with Harry Potter fans, and referred to Voldemort's Horcrux, pronouncing "hor-KRUZH", I would actually be objectively wrong.
That standards change and the bar of "acceptable" or "correct" changes doesn't mean that bar doesn't exist.Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
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2021-02-07, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
The specific ways that specific letters are pronounced has literally no bearing on the fact that it is still true and will be forever true that the pronunciation of letters in individual words in an acronym hs no connection to the pronunciation of the letters in that acronym.
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2021-02-07, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Sweden
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2021-02-07, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
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2021-02-07, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
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- Albuquerque, NM
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Full disclosure, I pronounce GIF as "Gift". But I can see a case for pronouncing it like the peanut butter Jif, if only to avoid confusion with the word "gift". Especially early on in their development/utilization.
Now a days, if you're not using jpegs (pronounced gee-pigs, obviously) you're imaging wrongTrollbait extraordinaire
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2021-02-07, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Monster names in D&D are a complete mess, 'medusas' should be 'gorgons' as a passing similarity with Greek myth would reveal. I occasionally try to fix it for settings, in which case Djinni, Efreeti, Marid, and Dao become the four main species of Elemental Lord.
And I see your point about genasi, but that's the way it's pronounced in official sources.
I did not know that. I was still new to VtM when I played Bloodlines. I've always assumed "BROO-hah" was correct.
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2021-02-07, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Waterdeep
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I purposely pronounce it wrong and revel in the chaos
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2021-02-08, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
The ordinary word is pronounced "sijil," so I pronounce the name the same way. (Likewise "vigil," which came from the same Latin root and underwent the same sound change.)
However, I also recognize the "dah-tuh" vs. "day-tuh" thing. Sometimes, a name is a word, and sometimes it's apart from that word. If it belongs to a specific person or authority, you ask them if you're unsure, clean and simple. But since Sigil doesn't belong to anyone IRL the way that "day-tuh" belongs to a specific Soong-type positronic android in Star Trek, it's our choice as content creators, and thus messy and individual.
I would generally be confused if someone spoke "siggle" and expected me to know that it referred to the city, just as I would be confused if someone told me to be "viggle-ant" for criminal activity. I could probably figure it out from context clues or just thinking about it, but it would need that "thinking about it" moment before I figured it out.
Because the authors were English speakers originally writing in English. To turn the question around: why should I expect to pronounce words the way a French person would (just to make up a language; I have no idea what your native tongue is, so if it's French, I promise this isn't targeted at you) if I'm reading a work originally written in English? Why should I expect English pronunciations if I'm (say) playing a game made in Poland, Germany, or Japan? (The last there can be complicated, since many terms or names in Japanese are merely transliterated Engl, e.g. the recurring FF entity Bahamut is literally バハムート, Bahamūto, but for the sake of argument I'll say I'm only thinking about names of actual Japanese origin, not transliterated names.)
Hard G is also present in English (giggle, for example, or give, or vogue), so it's not like this is an allophonic difference issue like with liquid consonants in Japanese vs. European languages.Last edited by ezekielraiden; 2021-02-08 at 11:29 AM.
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2021-02-08, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I thought the quote was a joke. The Guvners are rules fetishists who are all about following the letter of the law to screw people over, so being pedantic about the pronunciation of "Sigil" would be par for the course with them. It's not necessarily the correct pronunciation or even one most inhabitants of Sigil would use.
There's another bit in the Planesacape books somewhere about the Guvners discovering that the are 18 distinct levels of strength in everyone in the multiverse, and trying to discover if the other attributes can be rated similarly and decide how they can use this information.
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2021-02-08, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
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2021-02-08, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
All of this is missing the more important question -- does 'Flind' rhyme with sinned or blind?
Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2021-02-09 at 08:38 AM.
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2021-02-08, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
There is a difference between slight vowel shifts - as most of those examples are - and a complete consonant-switch that is only ambiguous because a vaguery of English spelling lets the same symbol make either sound.
Pronouncing "D&D" to sound exactly like the word "dandy" would, in fact, be incorrect, in no small part because it would create needless confusion as nobody would know to what you were referring (and might make incorrect assumptions), for example.
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2021-02-09, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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- Sharangar's Revenge
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
It rhymes with wind, obviously!
I personally rhyme it with 'binned' as well.Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2021-02-09, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
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2021-02-09, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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2021-02-09, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- Somewhere over th rainbow
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2021-02-10, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
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2021-02-10, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-10, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- San Antonio, Texas
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I have never understood the difference between Hard and Soft G
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2021-02-10, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Last edited by ezekielraiden; 2021-02-10 at 11:24 AM.
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2021-02-10, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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