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2021-02-12, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- In my library
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
That's... not far from the truth. Combined with changing fashions and accents, and occasional chanting pronunciation or spelling from one language to another.
It's the same reason that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland becomes the United Kingdom, or UK, and in a few hundred years might actually corrupt to be pronounced 'ook'*.
* I'm trying my hardest at least.
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2021-02-12, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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2021-02-12, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2019
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2021-02-12, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
To be fair, I would also love a cooler coat of arms than mine.
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2021-02-12, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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2021-02-12, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
IIRC, "hard g" is considered "hard" because it is the voiced equivalent of "k," which is considered among the hardest consonants. "Soft g" is considered soft, by comparison, because it is the voiced version of "ch" as in "cheese" or "chalk," which doesn't articulate as hard as "k" does.
It is an actual, straight-up Latin word still used in languages today; it has no "soft" pronunciation, but if we're holding things to their original Latin root, it should be pronounced "wak-oo-um," not "vak-yoom."
My point was mostly that your reasoning is rather ad-hoc and arbitrary; you adhere to the Latin origin in certain cases, and the modern contextual usage in other cases (such as pronouncing Caesar as "seizer"). If, as you noted, it's simply a matter of unfamiliarity--fine. But it came across as an applied principle, rather than a rule-of-thumb for words not previously seen in context.
English likes to insert some i-sound between the c and the first u to make the transition easier.
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2021-02-12, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
The Cranky Gamer
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2021-02-12, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2021-02-13, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I missed this, and I gotta do it to 'em.
ARE YOU SUUUUURE?
Spoiler: large image
Because Merriam Webster ACTUALLY accounts for these two, plus one additional pronunciation.
Sorry, my guy, but Dictionaries are linguistically *descriptive* documents. They don't dictate what it correct. They explain how words are currently used. That is why dictionaries are updated yearly.
Other pronunciations are due to regional dialect differences. Variations of a correct way to pronounce a word.
Any "correct" way to pronounce a word must be chosen arbitrarily from a vast range of English Dialects, with one of them declared King Dialect with no objective reasoning behind it.
This doesn't cause Linguistic Etiquette to stop existing, it just doesn't grok with linguistics.
Saying "both are correct" or "there's no correct way to pronounce a word" is like saying "there's no such thing as an accent". Hell, I'm from Michigan, and like most Michiganders, when I say the word "both", it comes out sounding kind of like there's an "L" in it ("bolth"). Does that mean it's "correct" to put an invisible L in the word? No. It's a regional dialect. And it's just how it sounds. Michiganders tend to use a lot of nasal cavity resonating in our pronunciation. Has something to do with the humidity of the region.
Accounting for multiple common pronunciations of a word and having them all be acceptable is literally the exact OPPOSITE of accent erasure.
It ensures that you can't label an entire accent as "wrong English." Which is an absurd proposition.
Also wrong. One does not drive a "kyoop" De Ville. One does not overthrow a ruler in a "kyoop" (or "kyoo") d'etat. A "Blow of Mercy" is not a "kyoop" or "kyoo" de grace*. It's pronounced "Koo-pon".
Spoiler: large image
Twice now Merriam Webster disagrees with you.
I am a former English Teacher, so I can't help but be bombastic about this. I apologize if I'm being a tad... Extra.
*On that note, the last word of that is not pronounced "grah". "Coup De Grace" is not pronounced "koo de grah". THAT would be spelled "Coup De Gras", and would mean "Blow Of Fat". "Coup De Grace" means "Blow Of Mercy" and is pronounced "koo de grahs".
This one caused debate, because it is an acronym. I still maintain that pronouncing the letter that stands for a "hard G" word with a "soft G" is...bizarre, if not blatantly stupid, but I can't find any fault with saying "G-I-F" letter by letter.
But the "underlying word" argument is a bit silly. If that was the rule, "Scuba" would be pronounced "SCUH-ba" with the "a" sounding like the one in "Apple"
Which, while somewhat fun to say, would be ridiculous to employ in daily speech.
OK I'M DONE NOW
I'm sorry for being extra.Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2021-02-13 at 10:23 AM.
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2021-02-14, 05:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- I'm on a boat!
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
That's because those names are holdovers from the original peoples of the British Isles. You want some of the best evidence for this in people's names? Look at some Irish names sometimes*. There's even a really funny YouTube video "when you order coffee with an Irish name"
*For example, one of the names my wife and I are considering if/when we have a girl is "Aoife". Which is pronounced "EEE-fa".
I knew a teacher that did this. Or at least it seemed like it. Her maiden name was "Urt" or something.
Married a Greek guy. Seven-syllable last name. It's been awhile, but I wanna say it was pronounced "pop-in-ah-sta-stohp-a-los"
I don't know how you pulled something from supposedly the same source. I pulled up Webster's Dictionary and got only ONE pronunciation for both of those words. SO I don't know what to tell you.
Literally, only ONE pronunciation for both words.
That's actually literally just French. "Coup De Grace" is not an English phrase, it's straight-up French. And there's one way to pronounce it. Pronouncing "koo de grah" in French would be spelled "Coup De Gras" and would mean "Blow of Fat". Same word found in Mardi Gras (Fat Tuesday).
For example, take a Spanish word with the double-r. Burro. A lot of Americans have trouble rolling their "R"s. Does it mean saying "burro" without the "rolling r" is correct? No the F- it isn't.
You don't? The "A" is a short "A" sound. "Apparatus" (as in Self Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus) is the same "a" sound at the end of "SCUBA". It sounds slightly different because the transition to the "double p" that follows requires a slight increase in inflection, as opposed to ending a word with it. But they're both a short "a".
Also, I not that you didn't respond to this, in regards to your claims about fantasy words. You said:
"Again, linguistically speaking, the idea that a made-up fantasy word has a."correct pronunciation" is as hilarious as it is incorrect.
Language doesn't care how the creator wanted it pronounced. That's not how it works."
TO which I said: "Actually, that's exactly how that works. Especially if you are referring to it within the same wheelhouse as the creator intended it for.
If I was talking about Harry Potter lore with Harry Potter fans, and referred to Voldemort's Horcrux, pronouncing "hor-KRUZH", I would actually be objectively wrong."Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
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Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
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2021-02-14, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Multiple pronunciation results are shown when I pull it up, though comparing different online dictionaries has often shown differences in certain details. More to ImNotTrevor's point, though, is that regionally based Internet searches yield regionally based results, and I suspect that Webster adjusts their results based on where you are and your most common regional pronunciation.
I've never heard scuba pronounced with a-as-in-apple at the end, nor have I ever heard apparatus pronounced without a-as-in-apple at the beginning. I have with my own ears heard at least three ways to say coupon and even more for crayon, and in no case did I not understand the speaker.“Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
Golem Arcana
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2021-02-14, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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- Earth and/or not-Earth
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
The difference between language and Harry Potter is that the latter has a creator who is in a position of authority over the subject*, while the former does not. You can't be "objectively wrong" in how you pronounce words, because there's no one who is able to set an "objectively right" pronunciation. The same for spelling, or usage, or creating new words, or any other issue.
*At least, according to some. Death of the Author says otherwise.I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2021-02-14, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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- Israel
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I pronounce the G letter as in the word "ghost".
see-GHIL
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2021-02-14, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
yeah, scuba is absolutely pronounced Skoo-bah as a standard. With the "bah" the same as apple and apparatus.
Maybe the question should instead be: does everyone pronounce apple as ah-pull? Or ah-pah-rah-tus?
Edit: I realized "ah" can either be ah as in apple, or ah as in ah-nold schwarzenegger. And when I look up apple on wiktionary, the "US" pronunciation is far harder than I'm used to hearing or saying it. More like the UK one. Ditto for apparatus, the a is far to hard.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apple
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apparatus
Either way it's not "a" in scuba, apple or apparatus, which is ay instead of ah.Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-02-14 at 11:27 AM.
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2021-02-14, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
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- I'm on a boat!
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
That's interesting. I'm on an aircraft carrier right now. I wonder if where the boat is getting signal from has affected which results I get.
So...do you not pronounce it "Skoo-bah"? How do you pronounce SCUBA?
I quite agree. That was my point.
Perhaps you missed what I was responding to. I'mNotTrevor said, ver batim:
Again, linguistically speaking, the idea that a made-up fantasy word has a."correct pronunciation" is as hilarious as it is incorrect.
Language doesn't care how the creator wanted it pronounced. That's not how it works.Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
Where do you fit in? (link fixed)
RedMage Prestige Class!
Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
"Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."
Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.
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2021-02-14, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I am firmly of the opinion that since language is primarily a tool for communication, pronunciation is correct if it is understood as the same thing by both the speaker and the listener.
That said, on the SCUBA question, it seems to me that A is always pronounced in the way that the underlying word intends, so it is an odd choice of example - especially when the U stands for Underwater, and therefore the word should be pronounced ‘scubba’ if we were taking each letter as representative of its underlying word.
I pronounce gif with a ‘Guh’.Last edited by Marcelinari; 2021-02-14 at 12:23 PM.
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2021-02-14, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2014
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- Colorado
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
soft g for me. even if the hard g is canon I couldnt convince myself to change it. Any time I hear it with the hard G I find it jarring and uncomfortable
Last edited by VincentTakeda; 2021-02-14 at 12:54 PM.
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2021-02-14, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
SKOO-bə is quite probably the only pronunciation I have ever heard, and leastways the only way I remember having heard it in person and in media, and the only way I've ever uttered it, even after having learned it was an acronym. I may have tested saying SKUBB-ah out loud in the wake of new knowledge and promptly abandoned it in favor of the norm on the reasoning that for all the more I'll ever be inclined to use the term it should be in the way most likely to be understood. A hillbilly don't s'much go divin'.
“Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
Golem Arcana
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2021-02-14, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Good call there. In skoo-bah, the bah is like ah-pah-rah-tus, but the oo is definitely not like un-der-wah-ter.
Where (roughly) are you from? Because it's not that way in the western USA. Nor for that matter on anything I can find when I google "SCUBA pronunciation". Even the top hit, which is written skoo-buh, is actually pronounced skoo-bah when you listen to it.
I'd love to get a link where I can hear it the way you normally expect it to be said. I'm really curious now.Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-02-14 at 01:20 PM.
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2021-02-14, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
The lumpy part of PA. First result for me is:
scu·ba
/ˈsko͞obə/
Edit to add: there is a 'learn to pronounce' button that takes me to a page with skoo•buh, and the audio definitely accentuates the buh more. There is also a pull down to select between American and British pronunciation. Both of these begin differently and end the same.
Edit #2: Webster has \ ˈskü-bə \ and that man sounds correct to me.Last edited by Imbalance; 2021-02-14 at 01:56 PM.
“Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
Golem Arcana
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2021-02-14, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Yes https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scuba
Clearly "skoo-bah", with the same ah as in ah-pull or ah-puh-rah-tus.
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2021-02-14, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I pronounce the G like a j (Sijil) but I have heard lots of people use the hard g sound.
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2021-02-14, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Nope. That's the exact same page, but nowhere is "skoo-bah" written, nor does the man's voice sound like the short a in apple. I'm debating if it's worth the effort to takes screen caps, because I can't grab a direct link to the four different audio files.
Edit: see if this redirects you to what I see:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...&file=scuba001Last edited by Imbalance; 2021-02-14 at 02:48 PM.
“Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
Golem Arcana
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2021-02-14, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
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- Somewhere over th rainbow
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2021-02-14, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
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2021-02-14, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
It absolutely does not. That dictionary describes "scuba" as /ˈskü-bə/ and "apple" as /ˈa-pəl/. If they had the same sound, they wouldn't have different pronunciation symbols: /ə/ and /a/ are not the same sound. Unless you think "apple" rhymes with "couple", the "a" in "apple" is not the same as the one in "scuba".
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2021-02-14, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I don't care about supposed symbols. I know what I'm hearing, and it sounds the same. You can test it yourself.
Say scuba with the "bə" as pronounced in the link. Then say scubapple. Then say scubapperatus. They all sound the same.
Also I highly recommend trying this when friends or family are in the same room so they wonder what the heck you are reading
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2021-02-14, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
You're hearing incorrectly. The sounds are clearly different. The dictionary people can hear the difference and wrote the pronunciation with different symbols to indicate that. I can hear the difference too. These are two different sounds.
You can argue about how those words should be pronounced because that's a matter of opinion. If you want to claim those recordings are making the same sound, that's factually wrong. The "a" in the recorded example of "scuba" is /ə/; the one in "apple" is /æ/. Different dialects may say those words differently, but that doesn't change the fact that the recordings you're referring to as "the same" are actually using these two different sounds. You can listen to the sounds of each Vowel symbol of the IPA on the Wikipedia page for "Vowel". Check if they all the sound the same to you.Last edited by Xuc Xac; 2021-02-14 at 09:13 PM.
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2021-02-14, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I listened to the /ə/ on iPA (on Wikipedia) and it's not the sound in the linked dictionary scuba. I also listened to IPA /a/ and it's not the sound in any example of apple or apparatus I've listened to today, not even the ones I linked that I disagreed with earlier.
Those are dramatically different sounds, but they don't seem to match actual examples being given by any of us.
What's interesting is before I listened to them, I was prepared to accept I might not just be able to hear a very minor difference, since examples given thus far mostly sounded the same to me. But now I've listened to the "correct" way to say those symbols, it's clear to me they're just not being correctly used, since they don't match the sound recordings.Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-02-14 at 09:22 PM.
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2021-02-14, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Yes, it is.
The sound in apple and apparatus isn't /a/, it's /æ/. If you can't hear the difference, the problem is you and not the professional linguists and speech mechanics experts.
The Merriam-Webster dictionary doesn't use the IPA symbols, so don't get that mixed up. Maybe the problem is that you're hearing the sounds and thinking "it sounds like an A", but the letter A represents a lot of sounds. Each IPA symbol only has one sound, which is why they're used to describe sounds. For example, the E in "pen" can vary between dialects, but there's only one way to pronounce /e/ in IPA.Last edited by Xuc Xac; 2021-02-14 at 09:42 PM.