Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

[RedMage125]

Also I highly recommend trying this when friends or family are in the same room so they wonder what the heck you are reading

This made me laugh. I'm just imagining what their responses were like.

I also listened to IPA

I prefer to drink mine.

[Lord Torath]

I've never heard SCUBA pronounced with the 'a' sounding like apple, and I live in the Mountain West. I have only ever heard SCUBA pronounced with the 'a' sounding like the 'u' in "up". That's the upside-down 'e' symbol. It's also how the 'a' sounds in "about".

[ezekielraiden]

I've never heard SCUBA pronounced with the 'a' sounding like apple, and I live in the Mountain West. I have only ever heard SCUBA pronounced with the 'a' sounding like the 'u' in "up". That's the upside-down 'e' symbol. It's also how the 'a' sounds in "about".

100% agreed. The whole "a as in apple or apparatus" thing deeply confused me when first mentioned. I get a mental logjam if I try to say "scubapple." For it to work, "apple" would have to rhyme with "supple," which it does not in my dialect of English (nor in any dialect I'm aware of). Whereas I can certainly say "scubabout." I find the resulting portmanteau humorous, but not at all difficult to speak.

Let's see if this helps. This is the Dictionary.com audio pronunciation file available to me when I look up "scuba." It very clearly is a "buh" sound, which is nothing like the much higher-in-the-throat "ah" sound from "apple" and "apparatus."

[Tanarii]

100% agreed. The whole "a as in apple or apparatus" thing deeply confused me when first mentioned. I get a mental logjam if I try to say "scubapple." For it to work, "apple" would have to rhyme with "supple," which it does not in my dialect of English (nor in any dialect I'm aware of). Whereas I can certainly say "scubabout." I find the resulting portmanteau humorous, but not at all difficult to speak.

Wow! Some good comparisons to make here:
'about' and 'apple' and 'apparatus' all use the same 'a' sound. None sound like 'up'. I agree that scuba sounds like about ... as well as apple and apparatus.

Let's see if this helps. This is the Dictionary.com audio pronunciation file available to me when I look up "scuba." It very clearly is a "buh" sound, which is nothing like the much higher-in-the-throat "ah" sound from "apple" and "apparatus."

Another perfect example of skoo-bah like apple and apparatus ... and about. Thank you.

[ezekielraiden]

Wow! Some good comparisons to make here:
'about' and 'apple' and 'apparatus' all use the same 'a' sound. None sound like 'up'. I agree that scuba sounds like about ... as well as apple and apparatus.

Another perfect example of skoo-bah like apple and apparatus ... and about. Thank you.

If I may ask, what region did you grow up in? Because this is deeply baffling. I have literally never heard of any dialect or variant where "apple" rhymes with "supple," nor where "apparatus" and "upperatus" would be pronounced identically.

Edit: Also, just as a test...this is the sound file for apple. Does its initial sound truly sound completely identical to the final sound of "scuba" to you?
Edit 2: Heck, here's the sound file for apparatus for good measure.

[Tanarii]

If I may ask, what region did you grow up in? Because this is deeply baffling. I have literally never heard of any dialect or variant where "apple" rhymes with "supple," nor where "apparatus" and "upperatus" would be pronounced identically.

I didn't say those rhyme. But about doesn't sound like supple or upperstus either. About, apple, scuba, and apparatus all use the same a, and it sounds nothing like up.

In other words, it isn't uh-bout, it's ah-bout. It isn't uh-pull, it's ah-pull. It isn't skoo-buh, it's skoo-bah.

Unless you're from Canada and say uh-boot I guess.

Edit: Also, just as a test...this is the sound file for apple. Does its initial sound truly sound completely identical to the final sound of "scuba" to you?
Edit 2: Heck, here's the sound file for apparatus for good measure.

No, but neither of those are how the words are said in common English usage. That's far too hard and loud an a in the ah, It's being disproportionately stressed. No one would ever never say it like that: I want an Ah-pull.

If that's how you think it should be said, it's no wonder you don't think anyone would say skoo-bAh. Because they wouldn't.

Edit:Honestly this entire debate is missing the bear in the room. Scuba to apparatus is either the same or far closer to each other than scuba to underwater.

[ezekielraiden]

I didn't say those rhyme. But about doesn't sound like supple or upperstus either. About, apple, scuba, and apparatus all use the same a, and it sounds nothing like up.

I agree they don't sound like "up," but completely disagree that they use the same sound.

In other words, it isn't uh-bout, it's ah-bout. It isn't uh-pull, it's ah-pull. It isn't skoo-buh, it's skoo-bah.

It's definitely "uh" as far as I'm concerned, for skoo-buh. That's what I've been trying to say.

Unless you're from Canada and say uh-boot I guess.

Not uh-boot. Just uh-bout.

No, but neither of those are how the words are said in common English usage. That's far too hard and loud an a in the ah, It's being disproportionately stressed. No one would ever never say it like that: I want an Ah-pull.

That IS how it's said in common English usage. That is what we've been trying to tell you this whole time. It is NOT "far too hard and loud an a." It is EXACTLY how the vast majority of English speakers say "apparatus" and "apple."

[Imbalance]

I don't know, like, how to even continue this. There is an entire company, might of heard of them, called Apple, named after the fruit. People say the name on the news and stuff. Somehow, it sounds like Ahpple? Serious question: are you trolling?

[Hytheter]

The 'a' in apple is the same as in cat, which is clearly very different from about or scuba.

[Xuc Xac]

I didn't say those rhyme. But about doesn't sound like supple or upperstus either. About, apple, scuba, and apparatus all use the same a, and it sounds nothing like up.

In other words, it isn't uh-bout, it's ah-bout. It isn't uh-pull, it's ah-pull. It isn't skoo-buh, it's skoo-bah.

If you think "apple" has the same "a" sound as "scuba", then "apple" rhymes with "supple".

"About" IS uh-bout. Nobody who speaks English like a native speaker says "skoo-bah". I don't know why you think those different A sounds are the same, but it reminds me of when a friend insisted that a red car was black and learned that he was colorblind. "It's as black as that stop sign!"

[Tanarii]

After digging around online, I found out what's going on here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//æ/_raising

I'm not raising the æ sound.

[Xuc Xac]

After digging around online, I found out what's going on here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//æ/_raising

I'm not raising the æ sound.

That still doesn't explain why you think "scuba" ends with æ when it's a schwa.

[ImNotTrevor]

I don't care about supposed symbols. I know what I'm hearing, and it sounds the same. You can test it yourself.

Say scuba with the "bə" as pronounced in the link. Then say scubapple. Then say scubapperatus. They all sound the same.

Also I highly recommend trying this when friends or family are in the same room so they wonder what the heck you are reading

No. Just. No.
https://voca.ro/15rsy8OdYVCq

Trying your recommendation in this link:
https://voca.ro/122iPRyM1gkZ

So... no.

Those are not the same sound. Wtf is wrong with y'alls ears?

---

Edit:

If Tanarii is british, and speaks with a british accent, that MAY cause them to sound similar...?

But even that seems a stretch. I'd have to hear british and australian pronunciations of it.

Which would be FASCINATING, honestly, but I'm very curious as to what area of the world this pronunciation is hailing from.

[Necroticplague]

I always pronounced it as sig-ill, because that’s how it’s spelt. Why would I pronounce if sij-ill?

It now occurs to me that that’s how it works in ‘ginger’ and ‘region’, though, so perhaps some further reflection into the sanguine mess that is English is required of me.

[Xuc Xac]

I always pronounced it as sig-ill, because that’s how it’s spelt. Why would I pronounce if sij-ill?

Because "sigil" is a real word that rhymes with "vigil".

[RedMage125]

I have been baffled by people claiming the "a" sound in SCUBA is different than the "a" in "apple" or "apparatus".

I think the key is the distinction between the stress on the word. And short vowels are often affected by the letters that come after, as the sound leads into the next consonant. But Tanarii and I are solely focusing on the vowel sound itself.

"Apple" is "AH-pull", it's "APP-ull"

"Apparatus" is "app-uh-RAT-uss"

"SCUBA" is "SKOO-bah"

If you only listen to the sound the "a" makes, instead of folding in the stress on the word and the flow of the "a" into the "double p", then yes, indeed the end of "SCUBA" is the same sound as the beginning of "apple" and "apparatus".

I had thought that should be obvious, but it might not be.

[Necroticplague]

I have been baffled by people claiming the "a" sound in SCUBA is different than the "a" in "apple" or "apparatus".

I think the key is the distinction between the stress on the word. And short vowels are often affected by the letters that come after, as the sound leads into the next consonant. But Tanarii and I are solely focusing on the vowel sound itself.

"Apple" is "AH-pull", it's "APP-ull"

"Apparatus" is "app-uh-RAT-uss"

"SCUBA" is "SKOO-bah"

If you only listen to the sound the "a" makes, instead of folding in the stress on the word and the flow of the "a" into the "double p", then yes, indeed the end of "SCUBA" is the same sound as the beginning of "apple" and "apparatus".

I had thought that should be obvious, but it might not be.

???
I’m really not seeing how you can believe those two are the same. To borrow in the expression this sight uses, scuba is an ‘uh’ sound, like Another or tuba, while apple is an ‘aa’, like rap or past.

[ezekielraiden]

I have been baffled by people claiming the "a" sound in SCUBA is different than the "a" in "apple" or "apparatus".

I think the key is the distinction between the stress on the word. And short vowels are often affected by the letters that come after, as the sound leads into the next consonant. But Tanarii and I are solely focusing on the vowel sound itself.

"Apple" is "AH-pull", it's "APP-ull"

"Apparatus" is "app-uh-RAT-uss"

"SCUBA" is "SKOO-bah"

If you only listen to the sound the "a" makes, instead of folding in the stress on the word and the flow of the "a" into the "double p", then yes, indeed the end of "SCUBA" is the same sound as the beginning of "apple" and "apparatus".

I had thought that should be obvious, but it might not be.

The stress still doesn't make /æ/ become /ə/. That's the whole point. The /æ/ sound is the "near-open front unrounded vowel," while the /ə/ is the mid central vowel (effectively the "default" vowel of just vocalizing without any effort at articulation).

"Scuba" is pronounced / ˈsku bə /. "Apple" in most dialects of English is pronounced / ˈæp əl /. I have given sound files, which have been dismissed as incorrect despite coming straight from Dictionary.com; so here's a youtube video of an ACTUAL LIVING PERSON pronouncing "apple" the exact same way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phT22oBa8TU

[Xuc Xac]

I think the key is the distinction between the stress on the word. And short vowels are often affected by the letters that come after, as the sound leads into the next consonant. But Tanarii and I are solely focusing on the vowel sound itself.

No, you're really not. The vowel sounds are completely different. This is not a matter of opinion. They can be objectively measured. I've spent nearly 15 years studying speech mechanics and teaching people how to use a British RP accent or a General American accent. You can argue about which pronunciation is "correct" as a matter of opinion, but the actual sound in a recording is not up for debate. The frequencies of the sound are what they are and your opinion doesn't matter.

"Apple" is "AH-pull", it's "APP-ull"

"Apparatus" is "app-uh-RAT-uss"

"SCUBA" is "SKOO-bah"

If you only listen to the sound the "a" makes, instead of folding in the stress on the word and the flow of the "a" into the "double p", then yes, indeed the end of "SCUBA" is the same sound as the beginning of "apple" and "apparatus".

I had thought that should be obvious, but it might not be.

No, it absolutely is not. In music, you can say "I think those two notes sound the same", but if one is 440 hertz (A) and one is 466 (A#) then you're just wrong and it's not up for debate. I am listening to the sound of the vowel. I have 15 years experience in speech mechanics and teaching people how to emulate General American or British RP accents. I've had to transcribe spoken sounds into the International Phonetic Alphabet to record the sounds precisely (not, approximations like "ah" or "uh" that depend on your own dialect). I know the difference between a schwa and an ash.

In the recordings linked in this thread, the "a" in "scuba" is /ə/ and the "a" at the beginning of "apple" and "apparatus" is /æ/. They don't sound the same. They don't even look the same: a deaf person could watch your mouth and see the difference because your mouth is much more open for /æ/.

Let me ask you this: Do you think ALL of the "a" sounds in "apparatus" sound the same? They don't. Some people say those 3 "a" sounds in 3 different ways (/æ/, /ə/, /eɪ/) or (/æ/, /ə/, /ɑː/). Some only use two sounds, like my own preferred pronunciation of /æ pə ɹæ təs/ with the ash sound for the first and third and schwa for the second. You said "apparatus" is "app-uh-RAT-uss", so you clearly don't think all those "a" sounds are the same. I'm guessing you mean to say it sounds like the way I say those three (/æ/ /ə/ /æ/).

As far as I know, every dialect of English pronounces "scuba" as /skuːbə/ (although I wouldn't be surprised if some Australians said /skjuːbə/). I'm sure you say /skuːbə/ too. If you actually said /skuːbæ/ as you are describing, everyone around you would think you sounded strange and were probably joking.

"Apple" in most dialects of English is pronounced / ˈæp əl /.

In every dialect I'm aware of, everyone pronounces the "a" in "apple" the same way. Dialect differences show up in the second syllable, but they're really minor. Most use a "schwa +l" as you describe, but some (like mine) use a "dark l" instead. Most people can't hear the difference anyway because it all sounds like "the letter L" to the them.

[ImNotTrevor]

No, you're really not. The vowel sounds are completely different. This is not a matter of opinion. (TRUNCATED FOR SPACE)

It is really amusing to me that 2 internet randos are trying to argue against an entire academic field of study and its findings in order to not be wrong.

Even down to when someone uses actual audio recordings to demonstrate the sound differences, they have to insist that *literally every English speaker on the planet except for them must be wrong* in one case.


I am reminded of when someone tried to argue that English is a Latin-based language. And when I informed them that no scholar of English nor Linguistics had ever called English anything other than a Germanic language, and cited multiple sources, insisted my sources were wrong compared to the one thing they read, one time, but couldn't share.

I am greatly enjoying this.

[Wizard_Lizard]

It is really amusing to me that 2 internet randos are trying to argue against an entire academic field of study and its findings in order to not be wrong.

Even down to when someone uses actual audio recordings to demonstrate the sound differences, they have to insist that *literally every English speaker on the planet except for them must be wrong* in one case.


I am reminded of when someone tried to argue that English is a Latin-based language. And when I informed them that no scholar of English nor Linguistics had ever called English anything other than a Germanic language, and cited multiple sources, insisted my sources were wrong compared to the one thing they read, one time, but couldn't share.

I am greatly enjoying this.

Well I mean with the latin thing, to argue that english does not have any latin based words is plain silly, not just coz of the romans, but also the french, who's language is definetly based on latin. Although English is just a weird amalgamation language anyhow. And with my two second research that is definetly definitively correct I found "English is a Germanic language, with a grammar and a core vocabulary inherited from Proto-Germanic. ... The influence of Latin in English, therefore, is primarily lexical in nature, being confined mainly to words derived from Latin roots." SO uh. it's kinda both? A germanic language with latin words shoved in?

[quinron]

It is really amusing to me that 2 internet randos are trying to argue against an entire academic field of study and its findings in order to not be wrong.

Even down to when someone uses actual audio recordings to demonstrate the sound differences, they have to insist that *literally every English speaker on the planet except for them must be wrong* in one case.


I am reminded of when someone tried to argue that English is a Latin-based language. And when I informed them that no scholar of English nor Linguistics had ever called English anything other than a Germanic language, and cited multiple sources, insisted my sources were wrong compared to the one thing they read, one time, but couldn't share.

I am greatly enjoying this.

Well I mean with the latin thing, to argue that english does not have any latin based words is plain silly, not just coz of the romans, but also the french, who's language is definetly based on latin. Although English is just a weird amalgamation language anyhow. And with my two second research that is definetly definitively correct I found "English is a Germanic language, with a grammar and a core vocabulary inherited from Proto-Germanic. ... The influence of Latin in English, therefore, is primarily lexical in nature, being confined mainly to words derived from Latin roots." SO uh. it's kinda both? A germanic language with latin words shoved in?

Wizard_Lizard is right, as far as I can tell - Germanic grammar and structure, primarily Romantic vocabulary.

That said, I 100% agree, ImNotTrevor - this ridiculous argument has been providing me with little seratonin boosts for days.

[Imbalance]

I consider it good practice for when I'm elderly and my children attempt to gaslight me.

[ImNotTrevor]

Well I mean with the latin thing, to argue that english does not have any latin based words is plain silly, not just coz of the romans, but also the french, who's language is definetly based on latin. Although English is just a weird amalgamation language anyhow. And with my two second research that is definetly definitively correct I found "English is a Germanic language, with a grammar and a core vocabulary inherited from Proto-Germanic. ... The influence of Latin in English, therefore, is primarily lexical in nature, being confined mainly to words derived from Latin roots." SO uh. it's kinda both? A germanic language with latin words shoved in?

It has *some* latin words thrown in from aboit 400 years of French occupation of the british isles.

But saying it is in the same family as Spanish and Portuguese is just.... not correct.

Wizard_Lizard is right, as far as I can tell - Germanic grammar and structure, primarily Romantic vocabulary.

That said, I 100% agree, ImNotTrevor - this ridiculous argument has been providing me with little seratonin boosts for days.

It is not primarily romantic in vocabulary.
Basically, the french influence as conquerors and nobility meant that the fancy term for things comes from french, and the normal version from germanic.

A poor person lives in?
A House.
(From germanic "haus")

A rich person lives in?
A Mansion
(From Middle French "Maison")

A peasant ate Cow.

A nobleman ate Boef. (Eventually, beef.)

How do you eat?
Well, you'd normally "Chew" (germanic)
But if you're pretentious you "masticate" (latin)

There are a lot of old french words thrown in, but English is still a thoroughly Germanic language in the eyes of every linguist on the planet.

Their contention was NOT that there was latin influence. I asked if that's what they meant. It was not. They insisted English was a Romance Language, not a Germanic language.

In any case, this would mean this person had a better case than that "Scuba" is pronounced with the "u" from "underwater" and the "a" from "smack".

[Caelestion]

What little it's worth, as a British person with a fairly generic "polite" accent, I say SCUBA as "sk-you-buh", with a schwa at the end and the "sk-you" as in the UK pronunciation of skew, dew and duke.

(I also say "apparatus" with three different A sounds, as in cat, schwa and case, but that's neither here nor there.)

[Xuc Xac]

Basically, the french influence as conquerors and nobility meant that the fancy term for things comes from french, and the normal version from germanic.

A poor person lives in?
A House.
(From germanic "haus")

A rich person lives in?
A Mansion
(From Middle French "Maison")

A peasant ate Cow.

A nobleman ate Boef. (Eventually, beef.)

How do you eat?
Well, you'd normally "Chew" (germanic)
But if you're pretentious you "masticate" (latin)

In some cases, English has three registers or levels of fanciness: Germanic, French, and Latin. For example, "kingly", "royal", and "regal". Sometimes we default to Germanic as "plain" and treat the others as "fancy", but sometimes we default to the "more polite" upper registers because the Germanic is too direct. It's ok to call your boss a "manager" or "supervisor", but just calling them "overseer" is rude (in a "true, but you shouldn't say it" way).

[Batcathat]

In some cases, English has three registers or levels of fanciness: Germanic, French, and Latin. For example, "kingly", "royal", and "regal". Sometimes we default to Germanic as "plain" and treat the others as "fancy", but sometimes we default to the "more polite" upper registers because the Germanic is too direct. It's ok to call your boss a "manager" or "supervisor", but just calling them "overseer" is rude (in a "true, but you shouldn't say it" way).

Stuff like that is pretty interesting. I remember being fascinated when a teacher told me that what language my native Swedish had borrowed from depended on what part of society the word was about. Basically, words to do with economy and trading was borrowed from Germany (thanks to the Hanseatic League and other German traders), words to do with industry was borrowed from England (thanks to the industrial revolution starting there) and, as with English, the fancy and luxurious words were borrowed from France (thanks to it being the language of royalty and nobles for a long time. Our current line of royalty being imported from France probably didn't hurt either).

[Tanarii]

???
I’m really not seeing how you can believe those two are the same. To borrow in the expression this sight uses, scuba is an ‘uh’ sound, like Another or tuba, while apple is an ‘aa’, like rap or past.

Scuba, another, tuba, apple, rap and past all have the same a sound though.

Unless you're raising your a, per my link above.

Edit: actually, it sounds like you mean you're dropping the a into a uh sound, my bad. That's a different thing. Like the poster earlier that said about was uh-bout.

[Unavenger]

Scuba, another, tuba, apple, rap and past all have the same a sound though.

Meanwhile in my accent, three of them are shwas, two are short a sounds, and one is a long a sound.

[Xuc Xac]

Scuba, another, tuba, apple, rap and past all have the same a sound though.

Unless you're raising your a, per my link above.

"Scuba", "another", and "tuba" all use /ə/ (if you have a non-rhotic accent, "another" starts and ends with it). "Apple", "rap", and "past" use /æ/ (for most dialects). If you're "raising your a", you turn /æ/ into /æᵊ/. That changes how you say "apple", "rap", and "past", but "scuba", "tuba", and "another" are still /ə/. The /ə/ doesn't get changed because it's already the simplest vowel. The schwa /ə/ is what you turn other vowels into when you don't speak clearly, slur your words, or just drop the stress. (In fact, it's really hard to stress a /ə/ without turning it into another vowel like /ʌ/.)