New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 181 to 210 of 276
  1. - Top - End - #181
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ezekielraiden's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2018

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Yes, but links (top hits for the search term I used first) came up saying it was ah-oo "two syllables".

    It did seem really weird to me too, and that's even with all the other things we've disagreed on.
    Some dipthongs do in fact originate this way, where a syllable ending in a vowel merges with one starting with a vowel, e.g. [CV][VC][CV] => [CWC][CV], with the handy symbolism of the W as two conjoined Vs. The reasons why one word generates a dipthong and another fails to can be quite idiosyncratic.

  2. - Top - End - #182
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    I quite assure you, that the way a lot of Midwesterners pronounce "SCUBA", the "a" at the end sounds just like the "a" at the beginning of "apple" (at least with our pronunciation of "apple", anyway).
    Cool. Prove it. You'll have to provide a recording of someone who talks like that, because I lived in the Midwest (and traveled all over it for work) for decades and never heard an accent like that.

    It's possible that there's some small pocket of people somewhere who say /skuː bæ/ instead of /skuː bə/ or /skjuː bə/ like everyone else, but I think it's more likely that you just can't hear the difference in those sounds. It's also possible that you're over-emphasizing the sound and pronouncing it differently when you test it than you do in normal use when you're not paying attention to it (like saying "thee" instead of "the" when you stress it).
    The Curse of the House of Rookwood: Supernatural horror and family drama.
    Ash Island: Personal survival horror in the vein of Silent Hill.

  3. - Top - End - #183
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuc Xac View Post
    It's also possible that you're over-emphasizing the sound and pronouncing it differently when you test it than you do in normal use when you're not paying attention to it (like saying "thee" instead of "the" when you stress it).
    Oh come on now, everyone knows "the" is pronounced "da". Like apple and scuba.

    Just to be double clear, this is in fact a joke

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    GMT +1

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    As a non-native speaker I have to say weird english pronunciation is weird...
    As an example I always pronounced tier like tie, not like tear. It is especially weird because Tier (pronounced like tear) means animal in german.
    (The Chaos, poem about english pronunciation by G. Nolst Trenité:
    https://pages.hep.wisc.edu/~jnb/charivarius.html)
    I'm seldom sure how to pronounce stuff right, so I just go with my gut-feeling and most of the time people understand what I want to say. That is the only really important part.

    Oh and hard G in sigil AND Sigil because I didn't even think of a soft G....

  5. - Top - End - #185
    Banned
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    smile Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    I missed this. Let's crack on, shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    I'm enjoying your towering condescension. Especially because you've been so caught up in overwhelming smugness that you're contradicting yourself, issuing mutually exclusive statements, and still acting like everyone who disagrees with you must be mentally defunct.
    My current theory is that you can't tell the difference between those two sounds.

    Do you think "Up" and "Apple" have the same starting sound?

    If not, then I can't explain your position at all.

    Case in point. You support Xuc Xac and his statements, supporting the audio recordings as "only correct way", and yet, earlier...
    OOF. Wrong.

    I never called it correct. I don't use prescriptive terms to describe language. What I DID say was that no, the vast majority of people DO NOT pronounce those words that way. Your response was to insist that everyone else in the thread disagreeing with you was just objectively wrong about what sounds they were hearing.

    Meanwhile, linguists developed the IPA to better *describe* the sounds people pronounce words with. The recognized IPA renderings of the words Scuba and Apple show two different sounds being made by the same letter. This is not a prescribed "this is the correct pronunciation" documentation. It is "we listened to a bunch of English speakers pronounce this word, and here is how the majority pronounce it."

    At some point, someone saying patently ridiculous things without any genuine backup is just going to be a source of humor.

    [QUOTE]
    I quite assure you, that the way a lot of Midwesterners pronounce "SCUBA", the "a" at the end sounds just like the "a" at the beginning of "apple" (at least with our pronunciation of "apple", anyway).[QUOTE]
    Please provide a recording of a midwesterner pronouncing scuba in the following way:
    https://voca.ro/16DcP8szFNB7

    Or pronouncing Apple in the following way:
    https://voca.ro/11GojO8zIvEj

    Because I work with several minnesotans, and never have they ever requested an Apple such that the first syllable rhymed with "Up."

    So, labeling accents as "wrong English" is an absurd proposition...and yet Tanarii and I are "objectively wrong" in how we pronounce things. These are mutually exclusive statements.
    I sincerely, sincerely hope you really do pronounce Scuba like how I do in the recording. Please, for the love of pete, find a wiki article about scuba diving and record it via Vocaroo.

    Like Tanarii said, you are advocating SCUBA as "SKOO-buh", and we (and the people where we come from) do not drop it into an "uh" sound. It sounds more like "SKOO-bah". Which is, in fact, the same as the beginning of "Ahpp-ull". So, if that's just our Midwestern accent...then by your own admission, it is not wrong English, and all your condescension is misplaced.
    Lemme give another recording, because this is a SOUND question, and using non-IPA writing doesn't help.

    https://voca.ro/1hCV41RvW6Ma

    OTOH, if there is only one right way to pronounce it, then all your condescension is hypocrisy, because it was you who said labeling accents as "wrong English" is absurd.
    I never labelled anything as wrong english. Far from current understanding of how the vast majority of English speakers speak? Sure.


    Wow, we sure are lucky to have the only right-thinking person on this thread. Us idiots don't know how good we have it! Thank you for being the only person who is capable of making intelligent conversation.
    *rolls eyes*
    Xuc Xac is in here too, my man. Give the guy who *literally studies speech* some credit.

    So, which is it? Is your condescending tone misplaced because our accent isn't wrong? Or is your condescending tone misplaced because it was you who made the assertion that even saying our accent could be wrong was "an absurd proposition"?
    Neither, because I never claimed your accent is wrong.
    In fact, this is the FIRST TIME the "it's my accent" defense has popped up. Before this, you guys told another poster that HE must be speaking a strange dialect because he pronounced it in the most common way.

    And I've yet to get a response to when you said:

    To which I said,
    "Actually, that's exactly how that works. Especially if you are referring to it within the same wheelhouse as the creator intended it for.

    If I was talking about Harry Potter lore with Harry Potter fans, and referred to Voldemort's Horcrux, pronouncing "hor-KRUZH", I would actually be objectively wrong."
    Lemme address this, then.

    Language is a game of The Majority Wins.

    The way MOST people pronounce things is going to communicate accurately to the largest number of people. Saying "hor-KRUZH" isn't wrong because JK Rowling said it is. It's wrong because that's not how people pronounce it.

    Now, it can be said that people pronounce it that way because Rowling said so, and that's fine. It can happen that way. But that has tangential relation to how language functions.

    The creator of the GIF didn't let everyone know how it is pronounced until years later. So hard-g GIF sticks around and is the majority pronunciation (and is gaining market share, as it were, year by year.)

    The intention of the creator does not determine which pronunciations are accepted and communicative. They can influence that process, but they do not COMMAND it.

    If Rowling had said that "Horcrux" should be pronounced like "Hoorcroox" and nobody paid any attention and just pronounced it how it looked, well guess what? It's now pronounced how it looks!

    At least, that is the Descriptive lens. Nobody COMMANDS language. But you can describe what it does.

    That's why I never mentioned your accent. Hell, YOU didn't mention your accent until JUST NOW, as a lame attempt to paint me into a corner I'm not even standing in.

    I took issue not with your personal accent, but your insistence that *the entire linguistic field* was just WRONG about the different sounds in Scuba and Apple as spoken by the majority of English speakers, with no mention of you having a particular accent *at all.* Hell, you even wrote off the IPA, one of the most important tools in understanding the sounds used by ALL human languages.

    So please, spare me the histrionics. If YOUR accent really does have the same sound in both words, PLEASE send us some audio because that's very interesting to me, linguistically.

    I wanna hear all about your Opples.

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Caelestion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Baator (aka Britain)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    An upple a day keeps the doctuh uhway, you know?

  7. - Top - End - #187
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedMage125's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    I'm on a boat!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    I missed this. Let's crack on, shall we?


    My current theory is that you can't tell the difference between those two sounds.

    Do you think "Up" and "Apple" have the same starting sound?

    If not, then I can't explain your position at all.
    No, I pronounce "SCUBA" as "SKOO-bah" and not "SKOO-buh". I've been very clear on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    OOF. Wrong.

    I never called it correct. I don't use prescriptive terms to describe language. What I DID say was that no, the vast majority of people DO NOT pronounce those words that way.
    You quoted him saying that, and just entirely agreed with it, while also adding a bunch of snide and condescending remarks. So that is how you were perceived. Take some responsibility for how you come across.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Your response was to insist that everyone else in the thread disagreeing with you was just objectively wrong about what sounds they were hearing.
    I actually never once told anyone "you're hearing it wrong". I also can't follow any of the links anyone has been posting. I'm on an aircraft carrier right now, and my internet is limited. Amazed this site comes up, really.

    But no, I only expressed amazement that others pronounce it differently, and hypothesized that it was the focus on the way the "a" transitions into the "double p" as why they were insisting that "apple" and "apparatus" are different from the end of "SCUBA". But apparently, it's because you all say "SKOO-buh", and I say "SKOO-bah".

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Meanwhile, linguists developed the IPA to better *describe* the sounds people pronounce words with. The recognized IPA renderings of the words Scuba and Apple show two different sounds being made by the same letter. This is not a prescribed "this is the correct pronunciation" documentation. It is "we listened to a bunch of English speakers pronounce this word, and here is how the majority pronounce it."

    At some point, someone saying patently ridiculous things without any genuine backup is just going to be a source of humor.
    And someone saying contradicting things while acting superior and condescending is amusing to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Because I work with several minnesotans, and never have they ever requested an Apple such that the first syllable rhymed with "Up."
    I'm from Michigan, not Minnesota. As I understand it, we tend to sound a lot more nasal to others. Supposedly has something to do with how humid it is in Michigan. Most of my accent has faded from 14 years in the military, but there's still a few words where it holds true.

    To my friend from Virginia, I apparently still sound like I say "bolth" when I say "both".

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    I never labelled anything as wrong english. Far from current understanding of how the vast majority of English speakers speak? Sure.
    You have, several times now, stated that the "a" at the end of SCUBA is different from the "a" at the beginning of "apple", and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. And you keep citing the IPA as the authority that prescribes such.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Xuc Xac is in here too, my man. Give the guy who *literally studies speech* some credit.
    You do know blue text indicates sarcasm, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Neither, because I never claimed your accent is wrong.
    In fact, this is the FIRST TIME the "it's my accent" defense has popped up. Before this, you guys told another poster that HE must be speaking a strange dialect because he pronounced it in the most common way.


    That's why I never mentioned your accent. Hell, YOU didn't mention your accent until JUST NOW, as a lame attempt to paint me into a corner I'm not even standing in.
    You know what else I find amusing?

    In addition to being all arrogant and condescending while saying contradicting things, you've also taken to saying blatantly untrue things, while still being condescending.

    You're right, this is very amusing.

    Post #19, the post of mine you responded to when you first brought up SCUBA, I discuss my accent.

    And when I responded, I expressed amazement that you don't pronounce it like I do. It's not a word that comes up a lot in conversation. But I definitely say "SKOO-bah" and not "SKOO-buh".

    Another poster mentioned that it rhymed with "tuba". Which is funny, because I agree. I also say "TOO-bah" and not "TOO-buh".
    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Lemme address this, then.

    Language is a game of The Majority Wins.

    The way MOST people pronounce things is going to communicate accurately to the largest number of people. Saying "hor-KRUZH" isn't wrong because JK Rowling said it is. It's wrong because that's not how people pronounce it.

    Now, it can be said that people pronounce it that way because Rowling said so, and that's fine. It can happen that way. But that has tangential relation to how language functions.
    By that logic, "irregardless" is a word, then, because a bunch of people say it. Even though, if it was a word, it would mean the exact opposite of how they use it, since they use it as a synonym for "regardless", and the prefix "ir-" denotes negation.


    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    I took issue not with your personal accent, but your insistence that *the entire linguistic field* was just WRONG about the different sounds in Scuba and Apple as spoken by the majority of English speakers, with no mention of you having a particular accent *at all.* Hell, you even wrote off the IPA, one of the most important tools in understanding the sounds used by ALL human languages.
    And now you're putting words in my mouth.

    The only, time I have mentioned the IPA was to make a beer joke.

    Try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    So please, spare me the histrionics. If YOUR accent really does have the same sound in both words, PLEASE send us some audio because that's very interesting to me, linguistically.

    I wanna hear all about your Opples.
    Again, I can't do something like that because I can't connect any non-authorized device into a government computer to upload in the first place, nor can I even visit sites like the ones you've been linking.

    And I never said I pronounce "opples", either.

    I can describe it. The second syllable of "SKOO-bah" sounds like Ebenezer Scrooge. "Bah...humbug". That make more sense?

    And feel free to tone down the overwhelming condescension any time now.
    Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.

    Where do you fit in? (link fixed)

    RedMage Prestige Class!

    Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
    "Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."

    Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

  8. - Top - End - #188
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Caelestion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Baator (aka Britain)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    Another poster mentioned that it rhymed with "tuba". Which is funny, because I agree. I also say "TOO-bah" and not "TOO-buh".
    Well, it does, but then I say both with a u-glide (sk-you) and a schwa at the end.

  9. - Top - End - #189
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imbalance's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2018

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Yinz oll jes' sand gewfy t'me.
    “Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”
    ~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
    Golem Arcana

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    No, I pronounce "SCUBA" as "SKOO-bah" and not "SKOO-buh". I've been very clear on that.
    Same. And I definitely do not have a Midwest accent.

    Speaking of 'a' words, there's a word with a different 'a'. Accent does not start with the same 'a' as apple or apparatus.

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Banned
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    No, I pronounce "SCUBA" as "SKOO-bah" and not "SKOO-buh". I've been very clear on that.
    Does the "A" in apple rhyme with the O in Opera?
    (The singing play, not the lady who had a talk show)

    Does the "A" in Apple rhyme with the one in "Cat?"

    You quoted him saying that, and just entirely agreed with it, while also adding a bunch of snide and condescending remarks. So that is how you were perceived. Take some responsibility for how you come across.
    *sigh*
    I wasn't aware that agreeing with a post means that I have fully adopted all statements within as things I myself have said.

    I actually never once told anyone "you're hearing it wrong". I also can't follow any of the links anyone has been posting. I'm on an aircraft carrier right now, and my internet is limited. Amazed this site comes up, really.
    So in a discussion where sound is pretty critical and people have attempted to use sound to clarify what's going on (as I did, in the recordings) you're a bit crippled, eh?


    But no, I only expressed amazement that others pronounce it differently, and hypothesized that it was the focus on the way the "a" transitions into the "double p" as why they were insisting that "apple" and "apparatus" are different from the end of "SCUBA". But apparently, it's because you all say "SKOO-buh", and I say "SKOO-bah".

    "If you only listen to the sound the "a" makes, instead of folding in the stress on the word and the flow of the "a" into the "double p", then yes, indeed the end of "SCUBA" is the same sound as the beginning of "apple" and "apparatus".

    I had thought that should be obvious, but it might not be."

    I mean, you DID assert that the sounds are the same aside from stress and that this should be obvious. (They aren't, and it isn't)


    And someone saying contradicting things while acting superior and condescending is amusing to me.
    You've claimed contradictions and haven't shown any yet.

    I'm from Michigan, not Minnesota. As I understand it, we tend to sound a lot more nasal to others. Supposedly has something to do with how humid it is in Michigan. Most of my accent has faded from 14 years in the military, but there's still a few words where it holds true.
    From what I've dug up, the michigan accent uses the short-a (as found in the word "cat") as well as the schwa (as found in the word "up")

    Make the sound of the "A" from "cat", and then the sound of the "u" from "up." Are those the same sound?

    Those are the two sounds in contention within Scuba and Apple.



    You have, several times now, stated that the "a" at the end of SCUBA is different from the "a" at the beginning of "apple", and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. And you keep citing the IPA as the authority that prescribes such.
    that's incorrect on both counts. It's one thing to call me condescending (It is a fault of mine) and another to insist I'm doing things I'm not doing.

    The IPA is descriptive. It is being used here for clarity because it is describing two different sounds in the most common pronunciations of both of those words.

    There are resources to hear what sound each IPA symbol represents, as well. (Though, again, you admittedly have no access to any such resources)

    The IPA is about SOUNDS not PRONUNCIATION. Words are sets of sounds in a particular order that have been assigned meaning by human brains. The IPA has a symbol for every sound found in human language. (Which includes a large number not found in English, because it wasn't made to tell English speakers what to do)

    When we reference the IPA, we're saying "hey, someone has documented every sound in human language. Here are the sounds identified to be occuring in Scuba and Apple in the VAST majority of pronunciations."

    That you indicate it's a stress thing tells me you can hear a difference in the SOUND, but might be fixated on the LETTER.

    You do know blue text indicates sarcasm, right?
    The best way to respond to sarcasm is sincerity.

    You know what else I find amusing?

    In addition to being all arrogant and condescending while saying contradicting things, you've also taken to saying blatantly untrue things, while still being condescending.

    You're right, this is very amusing.

    Post #19, the post of mine you responded to when you first brought up SCUBA, I discuss my accent.
    Yes. And then you never bring it up again as a reason you might hear or pronounce things differently. You just assert that your accent is How It Is, hence the response of "no, that's highly unusual."

    And when I responded, I expressed amazement that you don't pronounce it like I do. It's not a word that comes up a lot in conversation. But I definitely say "SKOO-bah" and not "SKOO-buh".
    This is where the IPA comes in handy. Does "ah" mean a sound like the "a" in "Cat?" Or does it mean a sound like the "a" in "awful?" (Which is the same sound as the "o" in "opera" or "Golf" or "octopus")

    Another poster mentioned that it rhymed with "tuba". Which is funny, because I agree. I also say "TOO-bah" and not "TOO-buh".
    AGAIN, this is where the IPA is useful as a tool to describe and identify sounds.

    By that logic, "irregardless" is a word, then, because a bunch of people say it. Even though, if it was a word, it would mean the exact opposite of how they use it, since they use it as a synonym for "regardless", and the prefix "ir-" denotes negation.
    Given that word meanings change and there are words with "false prefixes" where it just happened to have a sound similar to a prefix at the front, which then spawned an un-prefixed version of the word which hadn't existed before....
    Prefixes aren't a hard-and-fast linguistic constant.

    Also, given that a word is, according to Merriam Webster:
    " a speech sound or series of speech sounds that symbolizes and communicates a meaning..."
    The question becomes:
    Is "irregardless" a set of speech sounds?
    Yes.
    Do you understand what people mean when they say it? (Irregardless of you being purposefully obtuse about it)
    I sure do.

    Given what words are... it passes the two criteria to be a word.

    And now you're putting words in my mouth.

    The only, time I have mentioned the IPA was to make a beer joke.

    Try again.
    You are right. That was Tanarii. My B.

    Again, I can't do something like that because I can't connect any non-authorized device into a government computer to upload in the first place, nor can I even visit sites like the ones you've been linking.

    And I never said I pronounce "opples", either.

    I can describe it. The second syllable of "SKOO-bah" sounds like Ebenezer Scrooge. "Bah...humbug". That make more sense?
    The "O" in Opples is intended to use the same sound as the "ah" in "bah humbug." As would the O in Octopus. The same as the sound you make when the doctor says "say aaah."
    (Yes, english has sounds that cross over between letters.)

    And feel free to tone down the overwhelming condescension any time now.
    But that would be terribly off-brand!
    Nothing is more important than my brand.
    Last edited by ImNotTrevor; 2021-02-24 at 10:46 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #192
    Banned
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Same. And I definitely do not have a Midwest accent.

    Speaking of 'a' words, there's a word with a different 'a'. Accent does not start with the same 'a' as apple or apparatus.
    *in your accent

    Which, please, share how you pronounce those words. Smart phones can use Vocaroo just fine.

    Use Vocaroo to say each of these:

    Scuba
    Apple
    Opera
    Accent
    Apparatus
    Octopus
    Application
    Honest
    Cat
    Calm


    --

    And that's actually a good question:
    Do "Cat" and "Cot" sound the same?

    Because the "ah" sound you're referencing exists in the words cot, bottle, launch, top, pop, drop, slop, honest, slaw, raw, and the surname of one Tim McGraw.

    Hell, do these on Vocaroo, too.

  13. - Top - End - #193
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Caelestion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Baator (aka Britain)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTrevor View Post
    Or does it mean a sound like the "a" in "awful?" (Which is the same sound as the "o" in "opera" or "Golf" or "octopus")
    You think that offal and awful sound the same?

  14. - Top - End - #194
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    You think that offal and awful sound the same?
    For me:

    Offal is "oh-full", awful is "awe-full".

    Golf is "Gawlf".

    Opera is "ah-perr-uh" (ah-purr-uh?).

    Octopus is "ahk-toe-puss", or "ahk-tuh-puss" if I'm very tired.

    Octavian would be "ahk-tave-ian".


    Don't ask me to use IPA, the vowel system in that thing is a wretched mess missing half the vowel sounds I actually use (evidently they're "between sounds" / diphthongs, so use double-symbols... which seems very arbitrary given some of the sounds that they do give distinct symbols to... and every audio guide to IPA makes all the vowels sound like a stereotypical French guy from a Money Python sketch choking on a mouth full of marbles while trying to pronounce the sounds).
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2021-02-24 at 04:45 PM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  15. - Top - End - #195
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Lord Torath's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Sharangar's Revenge
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    You think that offal and awful sound the same?
    I pronounce them with the same leading vowel sound. The short "o" sound from pop and off. I confess I have not looked up the pronouciation of offal, so I just looked at the word and guessed/sounded it out.
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2021-02-24 at 02:02 PM.
    Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
    My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
    Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season

  16. - Top - End - #196
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Don't ask me to use IPA, the vowel system in that thing is a wretched mess missing half the vowel sounds I actually use (evidently they're "between sounds" / diphthongs, so use double-symbols... which seems very arbitrary given some of the sounds that they do give distinct symbols to...
    The IPA has one symbol for each sound that a human mouth can produce. The jaw, tongue, and lips have a limited range of motion and can only be combined in a large but finite number of combinations. Some of which can be made simultaneously because they happen in different parts of the mouth and some which can't because they overlap. The "T" sound /t/ is made with the tip of your tongue. The "SH" sound /ʃ/ is made with the sides of your tongue. The "CH" sound /tʃ/ is not an "in-between" sound: it's just what happens when you say /t/ and /ʃ/ at the same time. The "T" and "D" sounds /t/ and /d/ are both made in the same way inside your mouth (the difference is in your throat). Because they both occur in the same spot in your mouth, you can't do them simultaneously. That's why the "-ed" verb ending in English sounds like "T" after unvoiced consonants (because it's hard to switch to a voiced /d/ in the middle of a consonant cluster) and "D" after voiced consonants or vowels, but turns into a separate syllable like "ID" /Id/ after a T or D sound. The "-ed" sounds like "t" in "pushed", "d" in "showed", but it sounds like "id" in "ended".

    Diphthongs (and triphthongs in some languages) are multiple vowels pronounced one after the other. A vowel is one sound made by the mouth in one position. The variations in vowels are determined by how open your jaws are, how far forward your tongue is, and how high your tongue is, and how rounded your lips are. If your lips, tongue, or jaw move during the "vowel" then it's not one vowel. Watch your mouth in the mirror while you say "ah" (like when the doctor says "open up and say ah"). Your mouth will be open and your jaw doesn't open wider or close because it's one vowel /a/. Then say "eye". Your mouth will be open the same way as "ah" but then it will close to make the second part of the diphthong, which is why the IPA indicates that diphthong as /aI/. You start by saying /a/ then close your jaw to the position that makes the /I/ sound. It's even more obvious when you say "boy" because you not only close your jaw but your lips go from a rounded to an unrounded position.

    Saying that diphthongs are one vowel because you don't have a consonant break between the separate mouth positions is like saying a slide guitarist only plays one note when moving around the fretboard. A person who doesn't understand music might call that one continuous sound a "note" but musicians (and physicists who deal in frequencies) know that it's a glide across multiple notes.
    The Curse of the House of Rookwood: Supernatural horror and family drama.
    Ash Island: Personal survival horror in the vein of Silent Hill.

  17. - Top - End - #197
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuc Xac View Post
    The IPA has one symbol for each sound that a human mouth can produce. The jaw, tongue, and lips have a limited range of motion and can only be combined in a large but finite number of combinations. Some of which can be made simultaneously because they happen in different parts of the mouth and some which can't because they overlap. The "T" sound /t/ is made with the tip of your tongue. The "SH" sound /ʃ/ is made with the sides of your tongue. The "CH" sound /tʃ/ is not an "in-between" sound: it's just what happens when you say /t/ and /ʃ/ at the same time. The "T" and "D" sounds /t/ and /d/ are both made in the same way inside your mouth (the difference is in your throat). Because they both occur in the same spot in your mouth, you can't do them simultaneously. That's why the "-ed" verb ending in English sounds like "T" after unvoiced consonants (because it's hard to switch to a voiced /d/ in the middle of a consonant cluster) and "D" after voiced consonants or vowels, but turns into a separate syllable like "ID" /Id/ after a T or D sound. The "-ed" sounds like "t" in "pushed", "d" in "showed", but it sounds like "id" in "ended".

    Diphthongs (and triphthongs in some languages) are multiple vowels pronounced one after the other. A vowel is one sound made by the mouth in one position. The variations in vowels are determined by how open your jaws are, how far forward your tongue is, and how high your tongue is, and how rounded your lips are. If your lips, tongue, or jaw move during the "vowel" then it's not one vowel. Watch your mouth in the mirror while you say "ah" (like when the doctor says "open up and say ah"). Your mouth will be open and your jaw doesn't open wider or close because it's one vowel /a/. Then say "eye". Your mouth will be open the same way as "ah" but then it will close to make the second part of the diphthong, which is why the IPA indicates that diphthong as /aI/. You start by saying /a/ then close your jaw to the position that makes the /I/ sound. It's even more obvious when you say "boy" because you not only close your jaw but your lips go from a rounded to an unrounded position.

    Saying that diphthongs are one vowel because you don't have a consonant break between the separate mouth positions is like saying a slide guitarist only plays one note when moving around the fretboard. A person who doesn't understand music might call that one continuous sound a "note" but musicians (and physicists who deal in frequencies) know that it's a glide across multiple notes.
    What is the IPA symbol for the vowel sound of a "long I" as in "sight" or "try"?

    Because I can't find it in the table of sounds that all blur together into a French guy making rude noises. And when I pronounce "long I", it's a single sound, not two sounds in sequence.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vo...art_with_audio
    https://www.internationalphoneticalp...t-with-sounds/

    I can hear other people use a "T" sounds for "ed" at the end of some words, but for whatever reason I only make a clear "T" sound there when I'm very tired.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2021-02-24 at 04:50 PM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  18. - Top - End - #198
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imbalance's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2018

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Ooh! Ooh! What's the IPA for the sound I make when I hum and whistle at the same time? Or the one where you simultaneously gurgle, trill your tongue, and blabber your lips until your teeth rattle?
    “Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”
    ~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
    Golem Arcana

  19. - Top - End - #199
    Banned
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    You think that offal and awful sound the same?
    That is one of the accepted pronunciations, yeah:

    /ˈôfəl,ˈäfəl/

    It's the second of those two, and as it happens it's the default pronunciation that Google uses here in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    For me:

    Offal is "oh-full", awful is "awe-full".

    Golf is "Gawlf".

    Opera is "ah-perr-uh" (ah-purr-uh?).

    Octopus is "ahk-toe-puss", or "ahk-tuh-puss" if I'm very tired.

    Octavian would be "ahk-tave-ian".


    Don't ask me to use IPA, the vowel system in that thing is a wretched mess missing half the vowel sounds I actually use (evidently they're "between sounds" / diphthongs, so use double-symbols... which seems very arbitrary given some of the sounds that they do give distinct symbols to... and every audio guide to IPA makes all the vowels sound like a stereotypical French guy from a Money Python sketch choking on a mouth full of marbles while trying to pronounce the sounds.
    That's now 2 people objecting to one of the most useful linguistic tools in existence based on, as Xuc Xac explained, not understanding what it is for or how it works.

    It's basically like walking up to a microscope, looking through the lens, and calling it worthless because you can't see anything. (Meanwhile you didn't add a slide and didn't turn on the light.)


    ---

    On the IPA and weird mouth sounds:

    Burps are not in the IPA. They aren't a speech sound. They aren't used to make words as part of legitimate communication. (Schoolyard antics aside, there is no language that requires speakers to be able to burp on command.)

    The IPA is used to identify Phonemes. The building blocks that make up words. If you want to make a language consisting of strange sounds, be my guest.

    I spent time amongst a group called the Nivakle while I was in Paraguay, and the Nivakle word for "yes" is just a sharp, audible inhale. It took me a while to normalize to myself that people weren't surprised, they just agreed with me. But that sound, if I recall correctly, is in the IPA, even though it is a rare sound, linguistically.

    And the sputtering lips sound I am 100% certain is in the IPA due to a conlang video that discussed that sound and had its IPA symbol included.


    In short:
    Jeezum jones, there's a lot of armchair linguists trying to disprove or dismiss a major portion of linguistic science for... no apparent reason.

  20. - Top - End - #200
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Got one for you guys to try.

    Say the following and see if you think the a in scuba remains the same or changes:
    I'm not a fan of scuba.
    Do you guys want to go scuba diving?

  21. - Top - End - #201
    Banned
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Got one for you guys to try.

    Say the following and see if you think the a in scuba remains the same or changes:
    I'm not a fan of scuba.
    Do you guys want to go scuba diving?
    Scuba is the same between the two instances of "Scuba."

    "Fan" has the A from Apple and Cat, but not from Scuba.

    https://voca.ro/11eQZnRvW1qC

  22. - Top - End - #202
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Got one for you guys to try.

    Say the following and see if you think the a in scuba remains the same or changes:
    I'm not a fan of scuba.
    Do you guys want to go scuba diving?
    The A at the end of SCUBA stays the same in both sentences for me.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  23. - Top - End - #203
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    What is the IPA symbol for the vowel sound of a "long I" as in "sight" or "try"?

    Because I can't find it in the table of sounds that all blur together into a French guy making rude noises. And when I pronounce "long I", it's a single sound, not two sounds in sequence.
    It's /aɪ̯/ (or /ɑɪ̯/ if you have an Australian accent). It's two vowels in one syllable. That little curve under the second vowel means it's not a separate syllable (there's also a diacritic mark to represent when a sound is a separate syllable when you might expect it not to be). Your mouth starts open for the /a/ and then closes near the end to /I/. If you don't close your mouth, you'll just stretch the /a/ to /aː/. That pair of triangles that looks like a colon means the vowel is longer (meaning "you spend more time saying it", not like what English teachers usually call a "long vowel", which is really just a different vowel altogether). Pronouncing /aɪ̯/ as /aː/ is what a "Southern drawl" sounds like (or "sounds lahk"). Being in Michigan, you probably don't have a Southern drawl but you may be doing what's called "Canadian rising" which would change the /aɪ̯/ to /ɐɪ̯/. It's still two vowels but they are closer together so the movement between them is less obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    Ooh! Ooh! What's the IPA for the sound I make when I hum and whistle at the same time? Or the one where you simultaneously gurgle, trill your tongue, and blabber your lips until your teeth rattle?
    The "hum" sounds that English speakers use are the nasals /m ɱ n ɳ ɲ ŋ/ depending on where you put your tongue. I don't have the whistle symbols in my keyboard (they aren't part of the IPA, but they are in the IPA extensions used for describing speech deformities like lisps and cleft palates). Whistles can be represented by an arrow-shaped diacritic mark under another symbol that describes the point of articulation and extra symbols to indicate pitch and tone. There are a lot of tongue trill symbols depending on where in your mouth it happens. "Blabbering your lips" is the bilabial trill /B/. You'll have to be a lot more specific for "gurgle" because that could be about 20 different post-velar consonants.

    There are some "whistled languages", but they aren't really languages in themselves. They are more like codes for transmitting another language, like Braille or Morse code aren't separate languages. For example, Silbo Gomero is a whistled language in the Canary Islands that is mostly just Spanish with high or low pitched whistles in place of the normal spoken sounds. There aren't as many whistle sounds as there are Spanish phonemes, so you need to know Spanish first to "fill in the blanks" and understand the Silbo whistles from context. You couldn't learn Silbo without knowing Spanish first.
    The Curse of the House of Rookwood: Supernatural horror and family drama.
    Ash Island: Personal survival horror in the vein of Silent Hill.

  24. - Top - End - #204
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Caelestion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Baator (aka Britain)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Say the following and see if you think the a in scuba remains the same or changes:
    I'm not a fan of scuba.
    Do you guys want to go scuba diving?
    It's a schwa either way for me, though sometimes the u-glide disappears. Then again, whilst you Americans are apparently busy collapsing A and O together, we Brits like to turn unstressed vowels into schwas as much as possible.
    Last edited by Caelestion; 2021-02-24 at 07:49 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #205
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Imbalance's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2018

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    I wanted to be a silbador as a kid, but gave it up long before my two years of high school Spanish. The other weird noises I made only got me detention.
    “Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”
    ~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
    Golem Arcana

  26. - Top - End - #206
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuc Xac View Post
    It's /aɪ̯/ (or /ɑɪ̯/ if you have an Australian accent). It's two vowels in one syllable. That little curve under the second vowel means it's not a separate syllable (there's also a diacritic mark to represent when a sound is a separate syllable when you might expect it not to be). Your mouth starts open for the /a/ and then closes near the end to /I/. If you don't close your mouth, you'll just stretch the /a/ to /aː/. That pair of triangles that looks like a colon means the vowel is longer (meaning "you spend more time saying it", not like what English teachers usually call a "long vowel", which is really just a different vowel altogether). Pronouncing /aɪ̯/ as /aː/ is what a "Southern drawl" sounds like (or "sounds lahk"). Being in Michigan, you probably don't have a Southern drawl but you may be doing what's called "Canadian rising" which would change the /aɪ̯/ to /ɐɪ̯/. It's still two vowels but they are closer together so the movement between them is less obvious.
    Odd... I don't have to close my mouth to make or sustain the sound I'm talking about, and the closest it comes to "two sounds" is a minuscule pop of breath if I don't lead into it from another letter... if I say "sigh" and just kinda hold the sound there's no starting /a/ and no need to close the mouth... or I could stretch the middle of "fright" out for however long doing the same thing.

    I went through this last fall when trying to work on a conlang (with help from someone who was offering as a way to practice for their linguistics degree)... spent three days trying to find the symbols for "long I", etc, before we figured out I meant sounds that don't have single symbols even though I don't hear any hint of "two sounds".

    And like I said, all the IPA vowel charts sound like 75% variations on the same sort of grunting pained sound.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2021-02-24 at 11:16 PM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  27. - Top - End - #207
    Banned
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Odd... I don't have to close my mouth to make or sustain the sound I'm talking about, and the closest it comes to "two sounds" is a minuscule pop of breath if I don't lead into it from another letter... if I say "sigh" and just kinda hold the sound there's no starting /a/ and no need to close the mouth... or I could stretch the middle of "fright" out for however long doing the same thing.

    I went through this last fall when trying to work on a conlang (with help from someone who was offering as a way to practice for their linguistics degree)... spent three days trying to find the symbols for "long I", etc, before we figured out I meant sounds that don't have single symbols enough though I don't hear any hint of "two sounds".

    And like I said, all the IPA vowel charts sound like 75% variations on the same sort of grunting pained sound.
    Any chance you can record your self saying:

    I ride bikes on the side lines?

    Then someone with some audio editing software could compare the initial start of the sound to the end of the sound, to see if eliminating the bit in the middle helps clarify the difference between where it starts and where it ends.

    And IPA sound banks are meant to produce a single vowel sound, so I'm not sure what you're expecting them to sound like. Some have the speaker lead into it with a consonant (so less "ah" and more "bah") but that can be confusing if you just want to know what sound is represented by each symbol.

  28. - Top - End - #208
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Odd... I don't have to close my mouth to make or sustain the sound I'm talking about, and the closest it comes to "two sounds" is a minuscule pop of breath if I don't lead into it from another letter... if I say "sigh" and just kinda hold the sound there's no starting /a/ and no need to close the mouth... or I could stretch the middle of "fright" out for however long doing the same thing.
    Is this the same sound as the word "eye"? Because definitely no mouth closing there, just a tongue position change near the back of the throat as the vowel changes from one noise to the other in the process.

    At least, that's the same sound that I'd use for try, fright, sight, etc. Although going by this thread that apparently doesn't mean much.

  29. - Top - End - #209
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ezekielraiden's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2018

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Got one for you guys to try.

    Say the following and see if you think the a in scuba remains the same or changes:
    I'm not a fan of scuba.
    Do you guys want to go scuba diving?
    The pronunciation does not change, and remains the "a" of "about."

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The Lakes

    Default Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Is this the same sound as the word "eye"? Because definitely no mouth closing there, just a tongue position change near the back of the throat as the vowel changes from one noise to the other in the process.

    At least, that's the same sound that I'd use for try, fright, sight, etc. Although going by this thread that apparently doesn't mean much.
    Evidently I'm cutting off or silent on the starting bit of the "proper" pronunciation. /s

    The closest I'm getting to that first part everyone is talking about is a little nearly-silent "pop" or "puff" of breath as the tongue moves into position for the actual "I" sound, or if the "I" follows another letter in a word there's a tongue position shift from that letter to the "I" itself. (I don't know how else to describe it... there's a silent movement of air during the part where I'm being told there "should" be another sound leading into the sustained "I" sound.)

    And yeah, it's try, fright, sight, sigh, eye, kite...
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2021-02-25 at 09:30 AM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •