Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

[Vinyadan]

What is the IPA symbol for the vowel sound of a "long I" as in "sight" or "try"?

Because I can't find it in the table of sounds that all blur together into a French guy making rude noises. And when I pronounce "long I", it's a single sound, not two sounds in sequence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vo...art_with_audio
https://www.internationalphoneticalp...t-with-sounds/

I can hear other people use a "T" sounds for "ed" at the end of some words, but for whatever reason I only make a clear "T" sound there when I'm very tired.

UK /traɪ/ US /trɑɪ/ you can check all of these on the Cambridge Dictionary, although it only lists these two pronunciations, presumably going for the ones with the most prestige/most widespread in the two countries.

In practice, it's a diphthong.

About the t sound, it's not unusual for the last d in a word to turn into a t. It's happened in German, and something very similar happened in French (v to f, bovis to boef = beef). In English, you have graphic variants like burnt/burned, learnt/learned, and some other case I currently don't remember (although in English the n has some odd effects on d, so that could also be to blame).

[Hytheter]

I gotta say I'm all for the full-on linguistics discussion this has become.

although in English the n has some odd effects on d

Would you mind elaborating on that?

[ezekielraiden]

in English the n has some odd effects on d, so that could also be to blame

Would you mind elaborating on that?

Listen, man, sometimes a linguist and a consonant get a little...frisky, alright?

[Imbalance]

Handy reference for long i vowel sounds:

https://youtu.be/aOkiG53ituQ

[RedMage125]

Got one for you guys to try.

Say the following and see if you think the a in scuba remains the same or changes:
I'm not a fan of scuba.
Do you guys want to go scuba diving?

Huh. It does sound a little different on the second one. I feel like the "a" at the end of scuba kind of drops.

[ImNotTrevor]

Evidently I'm cutting off or silent on the starting bit of the "proper" pronunciation. /s

The closest I'm getting to that first part everyone is talking about is a little nearly-silent "pop" or "puff" of breath as the tongue moves into position for the actual "I" sound, or if the "I" follows another letter in a word there's a tongue position shift from that letter to the "I" itself.

And yeah, it's try, fright, sight, sigh, eye, kite...

I literally found a 9 minute explanation for you on how the long I works in American English.
https://youtu.be/8uD-GuuSgyk
EDIT: and now I included it.

Basically, if what you're claiming about yourself is true (namely, that you only make one sound) then that means you pronounce words as the following:

Spy and Spa are pronounced the same. OR, Spy sounds like Pea with an S on the front.

Find sounds like Fond, or Fiend.

Because the only way to make the "long-I" sound is with a dipthong, since that's what the sound IS.

It can be admittedly hard to hear the shift, and think of it as one sound. But it is, in fact, two sounds.

The issue is that in order to verify this claim of yours, we have to hear your voice. Otherwise you're claiming to be the first human being to pronounce a sonically pure form of the long-I sound, with the citation of "trust me, bro."

In which case we'll just assume you do the dipthong like the rest of humanity and just can't hear the change, since that is the WAY more likely thing to happen.

(And for what it's worth, the long I sound doesn't require any puffs of air so I dunno wtf that's meant to mean.)

Edit:
I JUST EMBARRASSED MYSELF FOR THIS EXPERIMENT SO PLEASE DO THIS.

Stick two fingers into your mouth and hold down your tongue so it cannot move upwards. Keep it below your teeth. (Please be careful not to make yourself gag.)

Now, try to pronounce the word "guy" without feeling your tongue push up on your fingers.

NEXT,

Say "ah." Hold it, as if singing. One long "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah"
Without doing ANYTHING ELSE, move the back of your tongue up and down. (While it won't sound as clear, you can touch the tip of your tongue to the back of your bottom front teeth and DO NOT LET IT SEPARATE FROM THEM as you move the rest of your tongue up and down.)
Marvel as you begin saying "aye aye aye aye"

If your tongue has to move to make the sound, it's a diphthong.

[Max_Killjoy]

I gotta say I'm all for the full-on linguistics discussion this has become.

Sadly, it's devolving to the stage where the self-proclaimed "experts" accuse people of lying to squelch disagreement.

[ImNotTrevor]

Sadly, it's devolving to the stage where the self-proclaimed "experts" accuse people of lying to squelch disagreement.

We have asked nicely for evidence, since you're making a claim that is, linguistically speaking, extraordinary.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


While I know you have some asinine beef with me personally that has lasted for like 3 years for no reason, that doesn't change that I have offered up:
A 9 minute video directly related to the exact dipthong you are questioning (which you dismiss without acknowledgement)
An experiment to test if there is a movement in the tongue when pronouncing the sound
Multiple actual recordings of my own voice. (For other issues, but I can do this one, too if you like.)

Meanwhile, from you, we have "Nah, bro, I pronounce this diphthong as one pure sound, in defiance of AN ENTIRE FIELD OF SCIENCE THAT IS CENTURIES OLD, as well as in defiance of the physical mechanics of speech. But don't ask me to prove it otherwise you're being a jerk and accusing me of lying. Just trust me, bro."

Come on, now.

I don't need to be an expert. I can point you to an entire field of experts who have spent more collective time studying this sound than you've been alive. If I have to choose between rando making a claim with the source being: "trust me, bro" and a scientific field with thousands of hours spent analyzing the thing he's making a wild claim about...

I'm gonna go with the latter.

(It is also noteworthy that "They claim expertise to try and squelch disagreement" is LITERALLY a Flat Earth talking point. Like... I have heard them use this defense. Please, dude. PLEASE do better than literal flat-earth tier logic)

[Xuc Xac]

Sadly, it's devolving to the stage where the self-proclaimed "experts" accuse people of lying to squelch disagreement.

You're literally claiming to defy the laws of physics. The English "long i" is a diphthong, which is two vowel sounds by definition. Each vowel has its own mouth position. You physically cannot make a "long i" without moving your jaw. If you think you are, then you're actually saying something else. Your understanding of vowels is the "lies to children" version for little kids who are learning to read. The "long a", "long i", and "long o" that you learned in first grade are all diphthongs (along with the vowels in "cowboy").

It's like a musician told you "the C major chord is played by hitting C, E, and G at the same time" and you responded with "Not the way I play it! I play C major in one long note." That's not how it works. If you're playing Cmaj, it's at least 3 notes. If you're really playing one note, it's not Cmaj.

[Max_Killjoy]

You're literally claiming to defy the laws of physics. The English "long i" is a diphthong, which is two vowel sounds by definition. Each vowel has its own mouth position. You physically cannot make a "long i" without moving your jaw. If you think you are, then you're actually saying something else.

What I know is that I can set my mouth in a fixed position (tongue, jaw, lips) and make the sustained I sound that's in the words listed earlier. It's easy. Say "sigh" or similar, and extend the vowel, hold everything in place, and stop... then start again. Stop and start as many times as needed. Put your finger between your teeth to maintain a fixed jaw position if that helps -- and put the tip of your tongue on the finger, too. To my ear, that isolates a "long I" sound without any other sounds, leading or trailing.

My cat is looking at me like I grew a second head because I've been sitting here making noises off and on since this "discussion" started yesterday.

Your understanding of vowels is the "lies to children" version for little kids who are learning to read.

Is that really how you think you will persuade someone?

[Xuc Xac]

Is that really how you think you will persuade someone?

It's literally true. You're claiming to make a sound in a way that is physically impossible. You're either saying the diphthong and don't realize it because you've been taught that it's one sound or you're saying a monophthong that you've misidentified. We won't know until you provide a recording of what you're doing because you lack the vocabulary to describe it. You don't know how to use the IPA and using approximations like "it sounds like 'ah'" depends on the reader sharing your own accent.

[Max_Killjoy]

It's literally true. You're claiming to make a sound in a way that is physically impossible. You're either saying the diphthong and don't realize it because you've been taught that it's one sound or you're saying a monophthong that you've misidentified. We won't know until you provide a recording of what you're doing because you lack the vocabulary to describe it. You don't know how to use the IPA and using approximations like "it sounds like 'ah'" depends on the reader sharing your own accent.

What sustained sound is someone making if they say "sigh" or "bye" and just stretch the vowel out for several seconds? It's not any of the other vowels as far as I can tell, and doesn't appear on any of the IPA vowel sample charts I've found.

If it can be sustained, why can't it be made in isolation?

If it can be made in isolation, how is it accurately represented by a symbol that implies TWO sounds?

(I'll try recording it again later today if my throat feels better, right now anything I say is too full of scratch and sniffle to be useful.)

[Imbalance]

My cat is looking at me like I grew a second head because I've been sitting here making noises off and on since this "discussion" started yesterday.

You attempted the gurgle/trill/babble trifecta, didn't you? Made your nose itch, didn't it?

[ImNotTrevor]

You're literally claiming to defy the laws of physics. The English "long i" is a diphthong, which is two vowel sounds by definition. Each vowel has its own mouth position. You physically cannot make a "long i" without moving your jaw. If you think you are, then you're actually saying something else. Your understanding of vowels is the "lies to children" version for little kids who are learning to read. The "long a", "long i", and "long o" that you learned in first grade are all diphthongs (along with the vowels in "cowboy").

It's like a musician told you "the C major chord is played by hitting C, E, and G at the same time" and you responded with "Not the way I play it! I play C major in one long note." That's not how it works. If you're playing Cmaj, it's at least 3 notes. If you're really playing one note, it's not Cmaj.

{Scrubbed}

[Max_Killjoy]

Just keep in mind which side of this "discussion" has sunk to the level of spewing personal attacks.

[Imbalance]

Did nobody listen to the GN'R song? Lots of sustained long i's in that. Mr. Rose is dipthonging his heart out on that track.

[Xuc Xac]

What sustained sound is someone making if they say "sigh" or "bye" and just stretch the vowel out for several seconds? It's not any of the other vowels as far as I can tell, and doesn't appear on any of the IPA vowel sample charts I've found.

Does it sound like this?

[Vinyadan]

@Max Killjoy, the way you describe holding your mouth and tongue reminds me mostly of an /ae/. If you can put your finger between your teeth it's likely not an /i/sound, and that doesn't sound like the tongue position for an /a/, either.

To be honest, there are some pretty strong accents out there, like I believe people in Philadelphia saying sex instead of socks, and people in Scotland saying sex instead of six. Durkon says mah instead of my, could it be something like that?

@Hytheter, as I understand it, n weakens the following d in English. So you have variants of and where the d isn't pronounced, and I believe it had something to do with how forms in -ing came to be; if I recall correctly, there were two forms, one ending with -ng which was a name from the verb (an action, like "the scouring of the Shire") and one with -nd which was an adjective from the verb (a quality, like "he's ravishing"). But then both g and d pretty much became unrecognizable when pronounced, so the two forms collapsed into one. There are very few forms left with the old -nd, one of them being friend (loving), another one fiend (hating).

[Max_Killjoy]

Does it sound like this?

It's not "long E" -- that's distinct.

In that clip, when she's not just making a random noise, several times she hits what I'd ID as a "long I" for an split instant in the middle of the word, right before the (nasal) "long E" that she sustains.

@Max Killjoy, the way you describe holding your mouth and tongue reminds me mostly of an /ae/. If you can put your finger between your teeth it's likely not an /i/sound, and that doesn't sound like the tongue position for an /a/, either.

To be honest, there are some pretty strong accents out there, like I believe people in Philadelphia saying sex instead of socks, and people in Scotland saying sex instead of six. Durkon says mah instead of my, could it be something like that?

The accent / dialect that sounds most natural to me would be "modern TV news anchor", / that thing called "General American". (The Midwestern Cities Vowel Shift is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.)

[Xuc Xac]

It's not "long E" -- that's distinct.

In that clip, when she's not just making a random noise, several times she hits what I'd ID as a "long I" for an split instant in the middle of the word, right before the (nasal) "long E" that she sustains.

She's saying "long i" and exaggerating it from the diphthong /aɪ/ to the triphthong /aɪi/ and sustaining the final /i/.

/a/ is a front open vowel.
/ɪ/ is front near-close.
/i/ is front close. When closing from /a/ to /ɪ/, it's easy to just go a little further to /i/.

I don't know what sound you're making, but if you're sustaining it without moving anything, then it's not a "long i".

[Tanarii]

@Max Killjoy, the way you describe holding your mouth and tongue reminds me mostly of an /ae/. If you can put your finger between your teeth it's likely not an /i/sound, and that doesn't sound like the tongue position for an /a/, either.

An "eye" sound can be made with the mouth fully open.

Did nobody listen to the GN'R song? Lots of sustained long i's in that. Mr. Rose is dipthonging his heart out on that track.

With screaming to boot.

[Vinyadan]

An "eye" sound can be made with the mouth fully open.

Fully open with lowered tongue normally means /a/, but I would expect the mouth to get less open as you get to the other sounds (unless you change that just by raising your tongue, which doesn't really sound like eye to me, but is part of how you articulate /e/ and /i/, which however also require you to reduce how open the mouth is and pull its corners like when you smile).

I mean, it really depends on what fully open means -- "definitely not closed" vs "as open as possible" .

[Caelestion]

When I try to say the letter I, my mouth has to partially close to complete the sound. The only possible way I can think of that you can say it without closing your mouth is if ice and ass sound the same (or very similar) to you.

[Max_Killjoy]

When I try to say the letter I, my mouth has to partially close to complete the sound. The only possible way I can think of that you can say it without closing your mouth is if ice and ass sound the same (or very similar) to you.

Other than "oh" and "oooo", the only thing pulling my mouth closed at all on any vowel I use is the need to position the tongue. Other than those two sounds, my lips don't do a lot of the work on vowels.

Not that I go around with my mouth wide open making vowel noises most of the time...

(And those two words you noted are different sounds.)

[ImNotTrevor]

When I took singing lessons way back when, to do |ai| on a long note, it was generally best practice to hold the |a| and then shift into the |i| at the very end.

Basically, if you take a bunch of singers and have them sing the word "law" and the word "lie," record it, and cut off the last bit where the dipthong is finished, you'd be unable to reliably distinguish between which word is which based on the sound.

https://youtu.be/12-pQoDO8As

In this song, at 3:02, he holds the |a| sound for a while and moves into the |i| right at the end, and it is very audible.


Some singers do opt to make the split halfway in or if the note changes during the dipthong, but generally, when a singer is holding a long I, they are holding an "ah" sound and then sliding into the "ee" sound at the end.

If you need more, some vocaroo.
https://voca.ro/18jkl9zKkrKc

In what is hopefully useful, in this recording I go from Ah and Ee as distinct sounds, to doing them back to back, to |ai|, making as smooth of a transition into the dipthong as I can and then back again. I couldn't do it in one breath, but if ya can't hear it at this point i dunno what else to do.


Gonna once again point out only one side has been bringing any form of evidence or backing, and the other has said "nah bro" and nothing else.

I shouldn't have gotten frustrated over a dumb internet argument, but at some point it's a bit disingenuous to get high and mighty when there's been a clear and obvious different in effort put in to support points, and that evidence has been dismissed with a longer form of "nah."

Should I be less of a tool about pointing that out? Arguably yes. Does it mean it's not worth pointing out? No.

If we're out here providing evidence and looking up videos and doing our damndest to explain how this stuff works, is it really all that shocking when we get frustrated that the response to this evidence is "its not tho. Citation: trust me?"

Is it asking a ridiculous amount to say "that claim flies in the face of linguistic and acoustic understanding, can you please provide backup for it before we believe it?"

---

Add-on

From the literal 9 minute video I posted on this dipthong, about 1 minute in, it explains that in American english accents, the biggest difference between |a| and |i| is the position of the back of the tongue. (It rises to make the latter sound.)

Hence why I gave the experiment to literally hold the tongue down and try to pronounce the long I without the back of the tongue moving up. (I have done this. For several minutes at a time. I physically cannot make the sound without lifting my tongue.)

Another experiment is to say "ah" and lift the back of your tongue. And marvel as it becomes a long ee, and doing it quickly makes the long I sound.

You can also say "eye" into a mirror while watching your tongue to see if it moves. (It will.) (You may need to hold your mouth unusually open to get a clear view)

Again, I am willing to record myself performing these experiments to the benefit of those here who are curious, and I have provided other materials as well.

My frustration aside, let's not pretend I'm being unreasonable.

[Tanarii]

I mean, it really depends on what fully open means -- "definitely not closed" vs "as open as possible" .

As open as possible.

Aye, eee, and eye can all be said with the mouth as open as possible. Oh and you (and ooo) require closing it at least somewhat.

I do note that trying to say them with a mouth wide open requires raising the tongue more though. They can also be said through closed teeth with drawn drawn back lips.

I'm glad I don't have pets to look at me like I'm crazy.

[ImNotTrevor]

As open as possible.

Aye, eee, and eye can all be said with the mouth as open as possible. Oh and you (and ooo) require closing it at least somewhat.

I do note that trying to say them with a mouth wide open requires raising the tongue more though. They can also be said through closed teeth with drawn drawn back lips.

I'm glad I don't have pets to look at me like I'm crazy.

If your tongue is in a different position at the end of the word "I" than at the start, you've demonstrated that it is a blend of two sounds made with two different mouth shapes.

We can make sounds by changing the shapes of our lips, jaw, tongue, and soft palate, and by having lips and tongue interact with our teeth, and then voicing or not voicing the sound (vocal chords active or not) Each sound is made with a particular combination of these movements. The dipthing we're talking about requires a shift over time of your tongue's position, hence it being a glide between the sounds made when the tongue is low, and when the tongue is raised.

That's literally it.

[Vinyadan]

As open as possible.

Aye, eee, and eye can all be said with the mouth as open as possible. Oh and you (and ooo) require closing it at least somewhat.

I do note that trying to say them with a mouth wide open requires raising the tongue more though. They can also be said through closed teeth with drawn drawn back lips.

I'm glad I don't have pets to look at me like I'm crazy.

Open vertically (the jaws) or horizontally (the corners of the mouth) ? /i/ is definitely very open horizontally, but it's almost closed vertically, as in, the teeth are quite close together.

/o/ and /u/ are indeed said with the mouth less open than /a/, both horizontally and vertically.

Is it possible that you shift your jaw forward when saying eye? Some sounds have alternative articulations that sound more or less the same, I have seen n pronounced with the tongue between the teeth for example.

[Tanarii]

Open vertically (the jaws) or horizontally (the corners of the mouth) ? /i/ is definitely very open horizontally, but it's almost closed vertically, as in, the teeth are quite close together.

/o/ and /u/ are indeed said with the mouth less open than /a/, both horizontally and vertically.

Is it possible that you shift your jaw forward when saying eye? Some sounds have alternative articulations that sound more or less the same, I have seen n pronounced with the tongue between the teeth for example.

Teeth wide open. Or teeth together.

A, e, and i vowels, as in the sound made for their names in the alphabet English, does not require any jaw movement or corners of the mouth movement, just tongue movement, and can be recognizably made with jaw as open as possible or teeth together.

Tested multiple times and confirmed.

[Max_Killjoy]

Teeth wide open. Or teeth together.

A, e, and i vowels, as in the sound made for their names in the alphabet English, does not require any jaw movement or corners of the mouth movement, just tongue movement, and can be recognizably made with jaw as open as possible or teeth together.

Tested multiple times and confirmed.

Same here, not sure where this involvement of the lips and teeth thing is coming from for most vowels.