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2021-02-26, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
1. If your tongue is in a different position at the end of the "I" vowel than at the start, then congrats, you've confirmed for yourself that it is a dipthong, and we can be done here.
2. Different accents can achieve the same general sound in a few different ways, for some sounds. For an American accent (As Has Been Shared Already, and Ignored) the primary way of making the |i| sound is by raising the back of the tongue.
So again, this is stuff I, at least, have already shared. None of this is unwalked territory that hasn't been presented to you.
You just ignored it, and pretended it didn't get shared.
:|
Meanwhile, I'm the unreasonable one for getting frustrated. This forum, sometimes, I swear...
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2021-02-26, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
It's simply how articulation works. The matter aren't the teeth themselves, it's how open the jaws are. There are three main factors in articulating a vowel, how open your mouth is, the shape of your lips, and where your tongue interacts with the airflow. In a simplified diagram:
Code:jaw less open, tongue up back of tongue, u i forward tongue, rounded lips o e tense lips a jaw more open, tongue down
Last edited by Vinyadan; 2021-02-26 at 01:03 PM.
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2021-02-26, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2021-02-26, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
>for the record:
A 9 minute video which explains that the primary difference in American English is that |a| is done with the tongue down, and |i| is done with the tongue raised, has been posted, and I'm calling out again that this is being ignored to continue the narrative that no one has brought this up before, even though it has been.
{scrubbed}
---
One of the reasons why the jaw tends to move up and down in normal speech is because that serves the same function of elevating the tongue within the mouth, without moving the tongue independently, allowing the tongue to be free to move into sounds that will be soon to follow.
Hence, linguists paying close attention to people speaking normally will describe that movement for producing the |ai| sound. It's DESCRIPTIVE.
If you want to be technical, the sound is primarily produced by tongue position, though since the tongue is more or less attached to your bottom jaw, your jaw movememt has an effect on your tongue position, because of how objects-being-connected works. For instance, hold the tip of your tongue against the roof of your mouth. Try to keep it there as you open your jaw as much as you can. I can't keep it there for the entire range of motion of my jaw. I don't have a particularly long tongue, so some might be able to, for sure, but there will be a noticeable need to stretch the tongue upwards to maintain that contact. Because the tongue is, as I said, more or less attached to the bottom jaw.
So is it shocking that it would be a common, observable human practice to use the motion of the jaw to raise and lower the tongue rather than raise and lower the tongue on its own?
Since we've got both of you agreeing that |a| and |i| require two different tongue positions, and the way that long I can be held in music has been demonstrated using actual music with timestamps, can we now be done with attempting to debunk hundreds of years of linguistic science based on personal incredulity and a personal dislike of some presentations of the IPA? Please?Last edited by Peelee; 2021-02-27 at 10:31 PM.
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2021-02-26, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-26, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
It's a simplified version of the IPA. See is /si:/ in IPA, /i:/ meaning that it's a long /i/ sound. I don't try to use the other method (ah and so on) because I'm not used to it and I would surely screw up. Call is /kɔːl/, which is, indeed, the same vowel as /ɔːr/ = or.
About the IPA, this version with sound strikes me as pretty good: IPA English Vowel Sounds Examples - Practice & Record (speechactive.com) there are some vowels in the upper part of the page and more if you scroll down.Last edited by Vinyadan; 2021-02-26 at 05:44 PM.
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2021-02-26, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
The words I'd choose would probably be:
Alias is the A (or as the Fonz says aaayyye)
Eel is the E
Ivory for I
Ogre for the O
Usurp for the U (or just: you)
By the way, speaking of the Fonz and pronunciation, check out this at 1:56 :)
https://youtu.be/zO_sP6ioQYU?t=117Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-02-26 at 06:18 PM.
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2021-02-26, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
To clarify, "/iː/ is a long /i/" means that /iː/ is the same sound as /i/ but with a greater duration. The mark that looks like a colon with triangular dots indicates that the duration is extended. The /i/ sound is what English speakers call a "long e".
(The symbol for an English "long e" is /i/ because English uses the Latin alphabet to represent vowels in a different way than most other languages that use it because the few literate English speakers didn't change their spelling after the Great Vowel Shift and we've been paying for it ever since.)The Curse of the House of Rookwood: Supernatural horror and family drama.
Ash Island: Personal survival horror in the vein of Silent Hill.
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2021-02-26, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
It's usually whatever initial sound you are using for the diphthong (mostly /a/ or /ɑ/ though maybe there are some other options).
Try extending (really extending, for a couple of seconds at least) "sigh" or "bye". Then do the same with "bra", "spa" or "shah". Record, isolate only the middle, and compare.
Technically you can try extending /ɪ̯/ but then you get the same result from "sigh", and "may" and I think the sounds are supposed to be different, unless there is a dialect with a "pry-pray" merger.
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2021-02-26, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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2021-02-27, 03:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
I'll post this again, because earlier I added it to my post when there were already new ones after it:
A pretty good IPA guide with sounds: https://www.speechactive.com/english...etic-alphabet/ it's aimed to English, the speaker is a native Anglophone, and it sounds like she's a professional, unlike the Wikipedia one.Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2021-02-27, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
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2021-02-27, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
You can compare the pronunciations on the Cambridge Dictionary: pat about right below the word you can click on the loudspeaker icons to hear them.
Pat for me is said with tenser lips, about with more rounded lips. The point I'm trying to make however isn't that Cambridge reports the pronunciations everyone uses (accents and varieties exist and we probably wouldn't need the IPA if everyone pronounced the same way), but simply that these are the sounds represented by the symbols æ for pat and ə for about.
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2021-02-27, 05:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Then all we keep doing is showing that in your accent, those two sounds have merged, as in the pin-pen debate. After all, if pat had a schwa in it (the a in about), then it would be putt (the golf term) instead.
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2021-02-27, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
The Curse of the House of Rookwood: Supernatural horror and family drama.
Ash Island: Personal survival horror in the vein of Silent Hill.
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2021-02-27, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Remember how I tried to describe the "silent breath" or "tiny little puff of breath" when I tried to explain what was going on mechanically with my "long I"?
If I stretch "sigh" waaaaaaay out, there's a moment between S and I where I'm not making any noise.
Hmmm... for me, pat rhymes with cat, while about starts with an "uh" sound.
For me, despite the being different vowels, I don't feel any difference in lip tenseness.. which links back to the earlier thing with many vowels not involving lips or jaw position for me, just the tongue.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2021-02-27 at 09:26 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2021-02-27, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-27, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
No, because about is not pronounce uh-bout (or eh-bout), it's pronounce ah-bout. Just like pat is pronounce pah-t
The only difference in tenseness comes from a proceeding consonant. The vowel is the same. Paaaaah-t is the same as pat is the same as aaaaah-bout is the same as about.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say uh-bout, but I definitely say ah-bout. Which sounds like pat and cat.
Listened, and apart from some overemphasis (spitting the word out) in the word pat, they're the same a sound.Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-02-27 at 12:00 PM.
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2021-02-27, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Are you trying to be funny, now?
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2021-02-27, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2021-02-27, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
“Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
Golem Arcana
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2021-02-27, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
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2021-02-27, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
About -- əˈbaʊt -- https://www.dictionary.com/browse/about?s=t
ə -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid_central_vowel
That's the "uh" sound we're talking... about.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2021-02-27 at 12:50 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2021-02-27, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
So I can only conclude that you hear differently to other people. This is hardly unprecedented, given that the brain tricks us daily in any number of ways, and our use of language affects our very senses. Persistently saying that everyone is wrong, though, is really not the way to go about things though.
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2021-02-27, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
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2021-02-27, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
“Rule is what lies between what is said and what is understood.”~Raja Rudatha, the Spider Prince
Golem Arcana
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2021-02-27, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Last edited by Saint-Just; 2021-02-27 at 03:22 PM.
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2021-02-27, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Then it wouldn't be a word with only one vowel like I was talking about.
I can't think of any examples of a stressed schwa in English. If a "schwa sound" is stressed, it's almost always a /ʌ/ instead. Most English speakers can't hear the difference because English treats them as equivalent (which is why people think things like "sun" and "Anderson" rhyme). Some languages use schwas as distinct sounds. For example, Vietnamese has a long schwa (written "ơ" and pronounced /ə/) and a short schwa (written "â" and pronounced /ə̆/), so they can clearly recognize the difference between a schwa and another vowel.
Speaking of Vietnamese, I could probably get a whole paper out of people being unable to recognize that the sounds actually coming out of their mouths are not the ones they think they're saying because they've internalized a simplified explanation (like all the English speakers who think "long i" is one sound because it's written with one letter).
Vietnamese spelling is almost entirely phonetic (various accents pronounce words differently, but each speaker has one non-ambiguous reading for any given word) and there are no "silent letters", but there are "invisible sounds" that aren't written down. They learned the sounds of the alphabet and how to match the written and spoken words, but they never realize that they're saying additional sounds that aren't in the word.
I met a woman named Lộc who pronounced her name in way that sounded like "Lope". When i asked her to sound it out slowly, she said each letter sound separately then said the word together: "Luh Oh Kuh. Lope." She was completely oblivious to the "P" sound. Other people tried to help explain and they did the same thing. They all pronounce the /p/ but it wasn't written down and they were never instructed to say it or not say it, so they didn't notice it (but they noticed it sounded wrong if I didn't say it). It took a Vietnamese linguist to point out that they close their lips and produce a bilabial consonant in addition to the written sound after a rounded vowel, so "Lộc" is actually pronounced /lok͜p/ (and "Phúc Long" sounds like "foop lom" so they don't know why you're laughing at the sign on the noodle shop).The Curse of the House of Rookwood: Supernatural horror and family drama.
Ash Island: Personal survival horror in the vein of Silent Hill.
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2021-02-27, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-24, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?
Food for thought.
https://youtu.be/nhOhZ5HSd54?t=220It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.