Do YOU pronounce Sigil with a hard or soft G?

[ImNotTrevor]

Teeth wide open. Or teeth together.

A, e, and i vowels, as in the sound made for their names in the alphabet English, does not require any jaw movement or corners of the mouth movement, just tongue movement, and can be recognizably made with jaw as open as possible or teeth together.

Tested multiple times and confirmed.

Same here, not sure where this involvement of the lips and teeth thing is coming from for most vowels.

1. If your tongue is in a different position at the end of the "I" vowel than at the start, then congrats, you've confirmed for yourself that it is a dipthong, and we can be done here.

2. Different accents can achieve the same general sound in a few different ways, for some sounds. For an American accent (As Has Been Shared Already, and Ignored) the primary way of making the |i| sound is by raising the back of the tongue.

So again, this is stuff I, at least, have already shared. None of this is unwalked territory that hasn't been presented to you.

You just ignored it, and pretended it didn't get shared.

:|

Meanwhile, I'm the unreasonable one for getting frustrated. This forum, sometimes, I swear...

[Vinyadan]

It's simply how articulation works. The matter aren't the teeth themselves, it's how open the jaws are. There are three main factors in articulating a vowel, how open your mouth is, the shape of your lips, and where your tongue interacts with the airflow. In a simplified diagram:

                jaw less open, tongue up



back of tongue,        u           i      forward tongue,
rounded lips              o     e         tense lips
                             a       


 
                  jaw more open, tongue down

You can probably check this in the mirror by saying the sounds in father (a), call (o), loot (u), met (e), see (i).

[Max_Killjoy]

It's simply how articulation works. The matter aren't the teeth themselves, it's how open the jaws are. There are three main factors in articulating a vowel, how open your mouth is, the shape of your lips, and where your tongue interacts with the airflow. In a simplified diagram:

                jaw less open, tongue up



back of tongue,        u           i      forward tongue,
rounded lips              o     e         tense lips
                             a       


 
                  jaw more open, tongue down

You can probably check this in the mirror by saying the sounds in father (a), call (o), loot (u), met (e), see (i).

Evidently some of us are "doing it wrong", then.

Oh well.

[ImNotTrevor]

Evidently some of us are "doing it wrong", then.

Oh well.

>for the record:

A 9 minute video which explains that the primary difference in American English is that |a| is done with the tongue down, and |i| is done with the tongue raised, has been posted, and I'm calling out again that this is being ignored to continue the narrative that no one has brought this up before, even though it has been.

{scrubbed}

---

One of the reasons why the jaw tends to move up and down in normal speech is because that serves the same function of elevating the tongue within the mouth, without moving the tongue independently, allowing the tongue to be free to move into sounds that will be soon to follow.

Hence, linguists paying close attention to people speaking normally will describe that movement for producing the |ai| sound. It's DESCRIPTIVE.

If you want to be technical, the sound is primarily produced by tongue position, though since the tongue is more or less attached to your bottom jaw, your jaw movememt has an effect on your tongue position, because of how objects-being-connected works. For instance, hold the tip of your tongue against the roof of your mouth. Try to keep it there as you open your jaw as much as you can. I can't keep it there for the entire range of motion of my jaw. I don't have a particularly long tongue, so some might be able to, for sure, but there will be a noticeable need to stretch the tongue upwards to maintain that contact. Because the tongue is, as I said, more or less attached to the bottom jaw.

So is it shocking that it would be a common, observable human practice to use the motion of the jaw to raise and lower the tongue rather than raise and lower the tongue on its own?

Since we've got both of you agreeing that |a| and |i| require two different tongue positions, and the way that long I can be held in music has been demonstrated using actual music with timestamps, can we now be done with attempting to debunk hundreds of years of linguistic science based on personal incredulity and a personal dislike of some presentations of the IPA? Please?

[Caelestion]

You can probably check this in the mirror by saying the sounds in father (a), call (o), loot (u), met (e), see (i).

Call isn't an o sound, as much as it is or instead. Likewise, I don't know why you're representing see as an i sound.

[Vinyadan]

Call isn't an o sound, as much as it is or instead. Likewise, I don't know why you're representing see as an i sound.

It's a simplified version of the IPA. See is /si:/ in IPA, /i:/ meaning that it's a long /i/ sound. I don't try to use the other method (ah and so on) because I'm not used to it and I would surely screw up. Call is /kɔːl/, which is, indeed, the same vowel as /ɔːr/ = or.

About the IPA, this version with sound strikes me as pretty good: IPA English Vowel Sounds Examples - Practice & Record (speechactive.com) there are some vowels in the upper part of the page and more if you scroll down.

[Tanarii]

You can probably check this in the mirror by saying the sounds in father (a), call (o), loot (u), met (e), see (i).

Call isn't an o sound, as much as it is or instead. Likewise, I don't know why you're representing see as an i sound.

The words I'd choose would probably be:

Alias is the A (or as the Fonz says aaayyye)
Eel is the E
Ivory for I
Ogre for the O
Usurp for the U (or just: you)


By the way, speaking of the Fonz and pronunciation, check out this at 1:56 :)
https://youtu.be/zO_sP6ioQYU?t=117

[Xuc Xac]

See is /si:/ in IPA, /i:/ meaning that it's a long /i/ sound.

To clarify, "/iː/ is a long /i/" means that /iː/ is the same sound as /i/ but with a greater duration. The mark that looks like a colon with triangular dots indicates that the duration is extended. The /i/ sound is what English speakers call a "long e".

(The symbol for an English "long e" is /i/ because English uses the Latin alphabet to represent vowels in a different way than most other languages that use it because the few literate English speakers didn't change their spelling after the Great Vowel Shift and we've been paying for it ever since.)

[Saint-Just]

What sustained sound is someone making if they say "sigh" or "bye" and just stretch the vowel out for several seconds? It's not any of the other vowels as far as I can tell, and doesn't appear on any of the IPA vowel sample charts I've found.

If it can be sustained, why can't it be made in isolation?

If it can be made in isolation, how is it accurately represented by a symbol that implies TWO sounds?

(I'll try recording it again later today if my throat feels better, right now anything I say is too full of scratch and sniffle to be useful.)

It's usually whatever initial sound you are using for the diphthong (mostly /a/ or /ɑ/ though maybe there are some other options).

Try extending (really extending, for a couple of seconds at least) "sigh" or "bye". Then do the same with "bra", "spa" or "shah". Record, isolate only the middle, and compare.

Technically you can try extending /ɪ̯/ but then you get the same result from "sigh", and "may" and I think the sounds are supposed to be different, unless there is a dialect with a "pry-pray" merger.

[ImNotTrevor]

The words I'd choose would probably be:

Alias is the A (or as the Fonz says aaayyye)
Eel is the E
Ivory for I
Ogre for the O
Usurp for the U (or just: you)


By the way, speaking of the Fonz and pronunciation, check out this at 1:56 :)
https://youtu.be/zO_sP6ioQYU?t=117

Alias starts with a dipthong, too.

/ei/, specifically.

English puts a lot of dipthongs into single letters.

[Vinyadan]

I'll post this again, because earlier I added it to my post when there were already new ones after it:

A pretty good IPA guide with sounds: https://www.speechactive.com/english...etic-alphabet/ it's aimed to English, the speaker is a native Anglophone, and it sounds like she's a professional, unlike the Wikipedia one.

[Tanarii]

I'll post this again, because earlier I added it to my post when there were already new ones after it:

A pretty good IPA guide with sounds: https://www.speechactive.com/english...etic-alphabet/ it's aimed to English, the speaker is a native Anglophone, and it sounds like she's a professional, unlike the Wikipedia one.

Interesting most of the vowel names are classified as diphthongs.

But once again, it shows two identical 'a' words with two different symbols. Pat and about have the exact same 'a' sound in them.

[Vinyadan]

Interesting most of the vowel names are classified as diphthongs.

But once again, it shows two identical 'a' words with two different symbols. Pat and about have the exact same 'a' sound in them.

You can compare the pronunciations on the Cambridge Dictionary: pat about right below the word you can click on the loudspeaker icons to hear them.

Pat for me is said with tenser lips, about with more rounded lips. The point I'm trying to make however isn't that Cambridge reports the pronunciations everyone uses (accents and varieties exist and we probably wouldn't need the IPA if everyone pronounced the same way), but simply that these are the sounds represented by the symbols æ for pat and ə for about.

[Caelestion]

Interesting most of the vowel names are classified as diphthongs.

But once again, it shows two identical 'a' words with two different symbols. Pat and about have the exact same 'a' sound in them.

Then all we keep doing is showing that in your accent, those two sounds have merged, as in the pin-pen debate. After all, if pat had a schwa in it (the a in about), then it would be putt (the golf term) instead.

[Xuc Xac]

After all, if pat had a schwa in it (the a in about), then it would be putt (the golf term) instead.

The vowel in the golf term "putt" is actually /ʌ/, not /ə/. The schwa /ə/ only occurs as the only vowel in "weak" words like the articles "an" and "the" (and not even in every instance of those words).

[Max_Killjoy]

It's usually whatever initial sound you are using for the diphthong (mostly /a/ or /ɑ/ though maybe there are some other options).

Try extending (really extending, for a couple of seconds at least) "sigh" or "bye". Then do the same with "bra", "spa" or "shah". Record, isolate only the middle, and compare.

Technically you can try extending /ɪ̯/ but then you get the same result from "sigh", and "may" and I think the sounds are supposed to be different, unless there is a dialect with a "pry-pray" merger.

Remember how I tried to describe the "silent breath" or "tiny little puff of breath" when I tried to explain what was going on mechanically with my "long I"?

If I stretch "sigh" waaaaaaay out, there's a moment between S and I where I'm not making any noise.

Interesting most of the vowel names are classified as diphthongs.

But once again, it shows two identical 'a' words with two different symbols. Pat and about have the exact same 'a' sound in them.

Hmmm... for me, pat rhymes with cat, while about starts with an "uh" sound.

You can compare the pronunciations on the Cambridge Dictionary: pat about right below the word you can click on the loudspeaker icons to hear them.

Pat for me is said with tenser lips, about with more rounded lips. The point I'm trying to make however isn't that Cambridge reports the pronunciations everyone uses (accents and varieties exist and we probably wouldn't need the IPA if everyone pronounced the same way), but simply that these are the sounds represented by the symbols æ for pat and ə for about.

For me, despite the being different vowels, I don't feel any difference in lip tenseness.. which links back to the earlier thing with many vowels not involving lips or jaw position for me, just the tongue.

[Caelestion]

The vowel in the golf term "putt" is actually /ʌ/, not /ə/. The schwa /ə/ only occurs as the only vowel in "weak" words like the articles "an" and "the" (and not even in every instance of those words).

What about the start of about? That has three vowels. Then there's place names that end in -ham, such as Birmingham and Buckingham, that end in that swallowed vowel sound?

[Tanarii]

Then all we keep doing is showing that in your accent, those two sounds have merged, as in the pin-pen debate. After all, if pat had a schwa in it (the a in about), then it would be putt (the golf term) instead.

No, because about is not pronounce uh-bout (or eh-bout), it's pronounce ah-bout. Just like pat is pronounce pah-t

Pat for me is said with tenser lips, about with more rounded lips.

The only difference in tenseness comes from a proceeding consonant. The vowel is the same. Paaaaah-t is the same as pat is the same as aaaaah-bout is the same as about.

Hmmm... for me, pat rhymes with cat, while about starts with an "uh" sound.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say uh-bout, but I definitely say ah-bout. Which sounds like pat and cat.

You can compare the pronunciations on the Cambridge Dictionary: pat about right below the word you can click on the loudspeaker icons to hear them.

Listened, and apart from some overemphasis (spitting the word out) in the word pat, they're the same a sound.

[Caelestion]

Are you trying to be funny, now?

[Max_Killjoy]

Are you trying to be funny, now?

I think I've heard about pronounced "ah-bowt" with a quick first vowel.

What I'm rather incredulous about is a claim to have never heard "uh-bowt" (much like the U in "duh" or "sum" or the "un" prefix) -- that's common across many US dialects/accents.

[Imbalance]

Are you trying to be funny, now?

"Because you have been down there, Neo. You know that road. You know exactly where it ends. And I know that's not where you want to be."

I don't know, like, how to even continue this. There is an entire company, might of heard of them, called Apple, named after the fruit. People say the name on the news and stuff. Somehow, it sounds like Ahpple? Serious question: are you trolling?

[Tanarii]

I think I've heard about pronounced "ah-bowt" with a quick first vowel.

What I'm rather incredulous about is a claim to have never heard "uh-bowt" (much like the U in "duh" or "sum" or the "un" prefix) -- that's common across many US dialects/accents.

Given that the link for the word provided most recently had ah-bout, and not uh-bout for Uk nor US ...

[Max_Killjoy]

Given that the link for the word provided most recently had ah-bout, and not uh-bout for Uk nor US ...

About -- əˈbaʊt -- https://www.dictionary.com/browse/about?s=t

ə -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid_central_vowel

That's the "uh" sound we're talking... about.

[Caelestion]

So I can only conclude that you hear differently to other people. This is hardly unprecedented, given that the brain tricks us daily in any number of ways, and our use of language affects our very senses. Persistently saying that everyone is wrong, though, is really not the way to go about things though.

[Tanarii]

About -- əˈbaʊt -- https://www.dictionary.com/browse/about?s=t

ə -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid_central_vowel

That's the "uh" sound we're talking... about.

Whelp. I listened. As in my opinion, the first link is "ah-bout" and does not use the sound from the second link.

[Imbalance]

Whelp. I listened. As in my opinion, the first link is "ah-bout" and does not use the sound from the second link.

Please understand, I don't mean to pick on you, but you prolly wanna go ahead and make an ear doctor appointment. Up to you. Just a suggestion.

[Saint-Just]

Remember how I tried to describe the "silent breath" or "tiny little puff of breath" when I tried to explain what was going on mechanically with my "long I"?

If I stretch "sigh" waaaaaaay out, there's a moment between S and I where I'm not making any noise.

So it seems you claim to produce two sounds, it's just the first is not is what others seem to think. (not /a/, /ɑ/, /ɐ/, or even /ä/). All in all it seems highly unlikely. So I will say "give me the auricular proof" and bow out for now.

[Xuc Xac]

What about the start of about? That has three vowels.

Then it wouldn't be a word with only one vowel like I was talking about.

I can't think of any examples of a stressed schwa in English. If a "schwa sound" is stressed, it's almost always a /ʌ/ instead. Most English speakers can't hear the difference because English treats them as equivalent (which is why people think things like "sun" and "Anderson" rhyme). Some languages use schwas as distinct sounds. For example, Vietnamese has a long schwa (written "ơ" and pronounced /ə/) and a short schwa (written "â" and pronounced /ə̆/), so they can clearly recognize the difference between a schwa and another vowel.

Speaking of Vietnamese, I could probably get a whole paper out of people being unable to recognize that the sounds actually coming out of their mouths are not the ones they think they're saying because they've internalized a simplified explanation (like all the English speakers who think "long i" is one sound because it's written with one letter).

Vietnamese spelling is almost entirely phonetic (various accents pronounce words differently, but each speaker has one non-ambiguous reading for any given word) and there are no "silent letters", but there are "invisible sounds" that aren't written down. They learned the sounds of the alphabet and how to match the written and spoken words, but they never realize that they're saying additional sounds that aren't in the word.

I met a woman named Lộc who pronounced her name in way that sounded like "Lope". When i asked her to sound it out slowly, she said each letter sound separately then said the word together: "Luh Oh Kuh. Lope." She was completely oblivious to the "P" sound. Other people tried to help explain and they did the same thing. They all pronounce the /p/ but it wasn't written down and they were never instructed to say it or not say it, so they didn't notice it (but they noticed it sounded wrong if I didn't say it). It took a Vietnamese linguist to point out that they close their lips and produce a bilabial consonant in addition to the written sound after a rounded vowel, so "Lộc" is actually pronounced /lok͜p/ (and "Phúc Long" sounds like "foop lom" so they don't know why you're laughing at the sign on the noodle shop).

[Caelestion]

I can't think of any examples of a stressed schwa in English. If a "schwa sound" is stressed, it's almost always a /ʌ/ instead. Most English speakers can't hear the difference because English treats them as equivalent (which is why people think things like "sun" and "Anderson" rhyme).

I can feel a slight difference when I say sun and -son, but in casual speech, I'd never notice the difference.

[Max_Killjoy]

Food for thought.

https://youtu.be/nhOhZ5HSd54?t=220