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Thread: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
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2021-02-07, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Hey folks!
I'm curious what y'all consider to be the most silly, baffling, or bizarre aspects of D&D 3.5e.
These can be in-text things (such as the Acidborn template or the Scion of Tem-Et-Nu feat) or meta-textual things (such as the fact that the best "samurai" are Factotums wielding Gnomish Quickrazors). Essentially: anything goes, as long as its ridiculous.
As a side note—these don't have to be disfunctional things, per se. Busted or illogical rules are definitely silly, but nedz's Completely Disfunctional Handbook already does a great job of cataloguing that sort of stuff.
I'm looking forward to hearing what y'all think!You found the hidden text! Have a cookie.
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2021-02-07, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Does healing by drowning count?
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2021-02-07, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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You found the hidden text! Have a cookie.
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2021-02-07, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
If you want the silliness categorised, there's a significant number of compilation threads of Dysfunctional Rules right here on the forum. As in, not just one thread, eight of them last I counted. Knock yourself out.
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2021-02-07, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
This was my first thought too..^^
______
Other than that, I always did find the lack of synergy the Drunken Master (DM) has with the monk really silly.
DM requires Flurry of Blows which forces you to dip monk (swordsage doesn't give it and most prc doen't give it/progress it). But it doesn't progress any of the monk abilities at all. It gives an entire new set of abilities and even flurry of blows gets totally ignored. Imho this is an error due to the 3.0 to 3.5 changes, since the monks flurry was (in 3.0) a first lvl ability that scaled with your BAB and not with your monk lvls.
The different power scaling between mundanes and caster is another silly issue. You just have a look at the monk's slow fall ability..
I mean, just compare PRCs. When mundanes get higher lvl spell effects the cooldown can easily hit the 1/week mark, where caster PRCs start to be able to persist spells all day long or have devastating abilities on a daily basis.
IMHO, if things like Planar Shepherd would have been non-caster PRCs we would have a more even field. But heck, give the strong T1 base classes the strongest/wrongest PRCs in the game.
Finally infinite loops like Pun-Pun & BoBaFeat demand their own category of silliness..Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-07, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Alignments. Alignments are just dumb. It's all legacy stuff from when the game didn't need to make sense, because you were just kicking in doors and stabbing goblinorckobolds. But by the time of 3e, games regularly had narratives that spanned literal years, and there are hundreds of fully fledged novels going on.
And that shines a big old spotlight on just how little sense alignments make.Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-02-07 at 01:42 AM.
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2021-02-07, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Obligatory mention of how a campfire doesn't deal damage high enough to overcome the hardness of firewood.
Barring that, trollblooded
Step 1: Be troll blooded
Step 2: Take fire damage
Step 3: Have a Crusader friend
Step 4: Have them beat the snot out of you, using their healing abilities to heal you after they attack you
Step 5: Heal your lethal fire damage and let the regeneration heal the nonlethal stabbing damage.
The stupid thing is that this makes sense, cutting off the burnt bits so you can heal.Last edited by Jervis; 2021-02-07 at 02:30 AM.
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2021-02-07, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Windmill slam "Riverine." It's "compressed elemental water," except no it's actually permanent magical force that just happens to have water inside, because apparently they couldn't conceptualize their own compressed water idea without making it not-water.
Oh, you meant "material" as any in game content, not literally materials. Well it's still pretty bad.Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2021-02-07, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
I agree that even as a fantasy material, riverine has always seemed out there.
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2021-02-07, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Hah, I thought the same thing, and thought of riverine as well
Yeah, but the PHB also has this line:
Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: The DM may rule that certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. For example, it’s easy to light a curtain on fire, chop down a tree with an ax, or rip up a scroll. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may (at the DM’s discretion) ignore the object’s hardness.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2021-02-07, 03:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Truenamer.
Ability score pre reqs for feats that you should just know how to do, ie combat expertise.
CR system.
WotC LAs.
WotC ideas, or rather lack thereof, of how the game will be/should be played. Trap options and all.
Inability to move and make multiple attacks, or moving between attacks, without jumping through hoops. Especially when that is exactly how dynamic theatre of the mind combat is described in fluff and intent.
Most feat trees.
The entirety of the ELH, special mention to epic spellcasting.Last edited by Efrate; 2021-02-07 at 03:57 AM.
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2021-02-07, 06:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
They are actually a holdover from when it was a wargame and the alignments were your factions to build army lists from.
Anyway, my nomination is the Silverbeard spell. It's a Paladin only spell that turns your beard (if you don't have one, you grow one. Specifically said that it also works on creatures that don't have facial hair and women.) to noble metal.
What does that do? Why, it gives a +2 bonus to armour (your neck is protected?) and a +2 diplomacy bonus with dwarves.
I love this spell.Last edited by Eldan; 2021-02-07 at 06:37 AM.
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2021-02-07, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
It's pointless: what good make you to be healed, if you die anyway just two rounds later?
Firstly, there is a line from the Oriental Adventures:
Originally Posted by Monk Prestige Classes
Alternately, it's possible to restore the 3.0 version of Drunken Master: it required no Flurry of Blows, and also has full BAB (although with hard limit of no more than 5 attacks per round)
Gandalf and Boromir;
Doctor Strange and Captain America;
Luke Skywalker and Han Solo;
Raistlin and Caramon;
Voldemort and Hagrid;
Katara and Sokka...
Your point?..
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2021-02-07, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Those are all stories written by authors. the mundane persons use is pre-determined by the narrative. the reason why a mundane person can be useful in those is because the author can literally make the entire story bend so that they're useful. Take a guy who can nuke a city but not much else and a guy is just good at social skills at put them in a romance novel, who will be useful? the social guy, because no amount of city-nuking will get you the love of your life, but being a social person who can present and have good conversations and being empathetic will probably do wonders, because the genre and thus what challenges they face has been predetermined long before you ever read them. put them in a political drama and suddenly the nuke guy becomes a lot more important because they can threaten to blow up a society to get this or that and the world's politics has to deal with this disruption of the balance of power.
this doesn't work in an improvisational medium like roleplaying. you could face any number of challenges, social, political, combative, investigative or physical and what not. the mundane character's usefulness is not guaranteed or secure. the GM has to do work to make it so. and while you can argue that is true for all characters, anything that lessens the work they have to do is preferable.
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2021-02-07, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
My point..^^
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Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
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Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
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2021-02-07, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Seconded.
I suspect the point is that it's a silly imbalance from a player perspective, rather than an in-universe one. It would be just as "realistic" to have fighters who are like the Hulk and wizards with nothing but cantrips but it would be rather silly from a player perspective.
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2021-02-07, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
When such situations arise, the primary blame is on the inexperienced DM which is incapable to adequately challenge all the players rather than just a caster; secondary - on a disruptive players who're hogging the spotlights; and only tertiary - on the classes itself
At least, in the 3.5 you're, actually, able to choose what kind of character you're playing (in some other games, you got it at random, as a complete surprise, any pregame preparations are impossible)
Oh, come on, do we seriously comparing somebody who're able to manipulate the very laws of nature with somebody else who hits things - and it's it?
Casters are above Fighters on the very conceptual level
The limiting factors for Casters are spells/day and unexpected challenges - not capabilities of Fighters
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2021-02-07, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Bad example: Doctor Strange is powerful, but that power comes at a price: all Magic has a cost, and the majority of humans don't have enough mystical gas in the tank to cast even the most minor of spells. Even with the Vishanti subsidizing Strange's mystical energy with their own, Strange is still accumulating debt to the various deities and cosmic beings he invokes with his spells and has to work tireless to pay it off less his ability to use the spells be taken away. Their used to be a cult in the Himalayas that took the majority of the Sorcerer Supreme's debt onto themselves, but Strange nixed that when he found out it was part of the deal
And some of those beings aren't very nice: The Crimson Bands of Cytorrek draw on the same power that keeps the Juggernaut going.
Furthermore, years of using magic have ruined Strange's body becuase he's channeling more power than a human body can handle. Externally, he looks healthy enough, but his guts are a Lovecraftian nightmare of tumors and misshapen and misplaced organs. He can't eat normal food anymore, and the things he can eat are slowly killing him.
If you restrict Strange to only the powers he can use without hurting himself or putting him into debt with something that, at best, doesn't pay humanity much mind, then he can read minds and astral project for a few hours a day and he has a couple of interesting gadgets and a sword.
And, well, he also knows karate.
Captain America on the other hand is an immortal powerhouse who is as strong, tough, as hearty, as fast, as agile, as smart, and when it comes to tactics, martial arts, and the use of weapons and vehicles, as skilled as it is possible for a human to be. He has infinite memory capacity and perfect recall. Once he develops a skill, it never degrades from lack of use. His entire body is perfect from the surface of his skin to every last individual peptide bond. All of his body structures, entire systems down to the placement of individual molecules, and all of these perfect structures work in perfect concert. No drawbacks whatsoever.
Strange might have more raw power, but unless you're a Supernatural being or somehow able to cheat the system, Magic's a trap option in the Marvel Universe.
Also a Bad example: Hagrid is a wizard. Considering that he's fully proficient with almost every spell he casts despite using a broken wand, he's a pretty damn good one. He is theoretically capable of everything Voldemort is.
He's also superhumanly strong, superhumanly tough, and impervious to most low and moderate level attack spells.
Basically, two of your examples are cases where, thinking critically, the "martial" is better than the caster.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2021-02-07, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
I'm not sure what your point is. Mine was that the fact that there are stories with magic users more powerful than mundanes doesn't mean an imbalance like that is a good idea for what's supposed to be a cooperative game (and that the opposite imbalance, with mundanes much more powerful than casters, would be just as bad).
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2021-02-07, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Originally Posted by Rater202
Captain America on the other hand is an immortal powerhouse….
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2021-02-07, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Thing is, it's made of planes of force, which have infinite hardness, but it's considered a material, so you can fabricate a shard of it the size of a grain of sand into an object the size of a planet (just with virtually no thickness at all) and lose no hardness for it. It won't weigh any more, but you can still find myriad uses for it, I'm sure. And since it's made of solidified [force] energy and not molecules, you can scale up to infinity and be fine.
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-02-07 at 11:41 AM.
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2021-02-07, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
1 pound of wheat (worth 1 cp) can be crafted into 1.5 ponds of flour (worth 3 cp).
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2021-02-07, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-07, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
In the main Earth 616 comics continuity(so not the MCU) Captain America does not age. He has not aged a day since he got the serum, with various sources citing his genetic perception, his perfect cellular division, and perfect cellular regeneration for his clinical immortality.
Dimension Z is a pocket reality with a heavy time dilation effect: You can in and come out later the same day, but from your perspective, several decades have gone past.
Supporting this, Isaiah Bradley, who received an imperfect version of the Serum was never frozen. He received his version not long after Cap got his and hasn't aged since, and Protocide, a man "killed" becuase he only received the third step of the serum(despite it's name, the Serum isn't one drug but several serums, viruses, other substances, and even radiation treatments... administered in three stages) was clinically dead, but his body did not decade and decades later he was able to be revived.
It's also noted that Steve should not have been able to survive being frozen for decades, particularly as he spent several hours deep underwater when he thawed out. Freezer burn, hypothermia, or drowning, one of those things should have killed him by the time the avengers happened to notice him floating by.
According to the 2011 Miniseries Captain America: Hail Hydra which talks about the predecessor organizations of HYDRA and their 7000-year long quest to "achieve immortality, conquer death, and create a new race of gods" via five encounters between Cap and Hydra through his history, The agelessness of Super SOldiers was not an intended function of Erksine's formula.
During the first issue of that series(which took place during WWII), Captain America was injected, against his will, with something called the "Lazarus Formula" becuase Dr. Geist was curious as to how it would interact with the Super Soldier Serum.
The Lazarus formula is usually injected into a corpse. In a fresh corpse, it brings the person back to life, rebuilds their body to peak human potential, and then grants superhuman strength and toughness(though there are obvious signs that they were dead at somepoint) In an old corpse, you get zombies. Zombies fully aware of who they are and are trapped in the agony of a half-rotten body.
Initially, the people revived by the formula seemed a bit... Thuggish, a bit like the classic Universal version of Frankenstein's monster, but Erkling, one of the subjects, was later shown to be fully functional in a social sense. It's not clear if this was the result of the formula finishing repairing his body or if he got an upgrade at somepoint.
Nobody knows what effect if any, the formula had on Cap: He's had Hank Pym looking into it on and off for years, and the results are inconclusive.
Erlking claims that the Lazarus formula is responsible for Cap's longevity and miraculous survival: He himself eventually fully recovered from all pre and post-death damage and hasn't aged a day since the 40s. Now, since Bradly and Protocide have eternal youth, that is at least partially false, but subjects of the Lazarus formula don't need to eat or breathe and can't be permanently killed by anything short of incineration.
It is entirely possible that the small dose of the formula Cap was given is why he survived being frozen for decades and didn't drown when he thawed out.
While Cap has been killed, it's usually in ways that are inherently temporary(like the 'dimension scrambling bullet' he got shot with at the end of civil war.) or is otherwise quickly undone. He's never really experienced anything that would prove or disprove if he's gotten any benefit of the Lazarus formula.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2021-02-07, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Hard to think of things not covered in the webcomic already. I personally like mismatches between theme and mechanics. Think of the Warlock. In the heat of battle the Warlock activates the Supernatural power known as Fiendish Resilience. . . . and heals one hit point. Kinda felt on hearing the name that there would be more juice there.
This was covered in the comic but the 1000 gp price tag on the humble telescope is funny too. Also in the comic: how enlarge person does nothing to your movement rate.
Funny but kinda horrific is the casual mention in the DMG of the hide of sentient creatures as a special material for armour. You know, mithral, adamantine or the skin of Gargorax the Golden Dragon. If I were a dragon I would hire a team of lawyers!
And special mention to the Green Star Adept, who relentlessly competes with others to eat green space rocks and so become less effective, especially on reaching the capstone of vulnerability at level 10.
And speaking of odd rocks, while I love the Sapphire Hierarch, they basically worship exactly the sort of prognosticating computer that Captain James T. Kirk could logic to death in under a minute.
Also a friend pointed out that most energy types are associated with an elemental or energy plane to in some way metaphysically ground it in most settings. Except sonic, which exists because . . . bards?
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2021-02-07, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2021-02-07, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
My point is: persons of vastly different power levels adventuring together is a well-established trope, and all the "balance" talks should stop long ago.
Situations when player rolled a Fighter or Monk and then complains they're played as a Fighter or Monk are ridiculous and shouldn't be blamed on the system
I don't care how unexperienced players or DM, I would ask: "What's you expected? Come on - by common logic?"
At the second glance, he may be - Sorcerer Supreme shouldn't be used as a measuring stick for a spellcasters
It was just one of the "team's mages" which was relatively easy to remember
But I digress...
Is it the same Doctor Strange we're speaking of?..
years of using magic have ruined Strange's body
Or to Sheev Palpatine...
Heck, Tony Stark died from the very first use!..
And let's not even start about the magic in Warhammer...
Don't get me wrong - Cap is effective in his own segment
But in the Strange' trade - he may be not just inadequate, but, essentially, useless
Really?
How about Brother Voodoo?
Agatha Harkness?
Claire Voyant?
Doctor Druid?
Victor von Doom?
Scarlet Witch?
Every wizard or witch in the Harry Potter universe are "theoretically capable of everything Voldemort is" - there are very few skills which can't be just learned (except for Parseltongue - it, actually, one of rare abilities which can't be learned)
But Hagrid isn't famous for his magic.
On a cursory glance - what we can remember of his spellcasting?
Failed attempt to turn Dudley into a pig? The keyword is "failed".
Next to a hacks like Lockhart he didn't look that bad.
But next to a competent wizards like Flitwick?..
Yes.
But I mentioned Hagrid not just because he's strong and tough (for it, I could use, say, Vincent Crabbe), but because he attended the same school and at the same time as Voldemort
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2021-02-07, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Every last one of them has to be careful how they use their magic becuase in the absence of an external source of energy every spell causes them to accrue debt.
Since they're not Doctor Strange, the debt they accrue hits harder becuase they don't have a trio of Cosmic Tier super gods giving them free magic power to cover most of it.
That's the secret of magic in the Marvel universe: For the vast majority of mortals, it's not your power and if the person whose Mojo you're aping says no, it just gets taken away.
A conflict in the current Excaliber run is that a cult of sorcerers called Coven Akkaba is stirring up trouble and trying to get Britain to riot over a mutant(Betsy Braddock) being the current Captain Britain.
They are doing this becuase Morgan Le Fae usurped control of Avalon, which is the source of all British Magic, and cut them off becuase she herself was having a little bitch-fit becuase Otherworld itself opened up a portal between Avalon and the new Mutant Nation and wanted the mutant nation destroyed for the insult.
Unless you are a god, or a fairy, or a Giant, or a dragon, becoming a Sorcerer in the Marvel universe is a trap option: Every spell puts you in debt to someone and unless you find a way to weasel out of it, eventually they're gonna collect.
Most of them are smart enough not to press their luck, while Doom is an arrogant son of a bitch who probably embraces the thrill and challenge of trying to outsmart beings who could turn him inside out with a thought.Wanda is a mutant with powers of probability and energy control who was exposed prenatally and in her youth to the magical radiation of Mount Wundergore, contained which is the physical body of the Dread Elder God Cthon, and was then in her childhood discretely subjected to experiments by the High Evolutionary to advance her abilities to absurd levels.
Wanda basically stole a significant amount of power from the God of Dark Magic, which means she's cheating the system. She has the energy to cover the costs and does not accrue debt.
She's cheating the system, essentially, but since she's using Chaos magic she's got her own problems to deal with.Last edited by Rater202; 2021-02-07 at 01:47 PM.
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2021-02-07, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
It sure is, but a piece of non-interactive fiction and a cooperative game aren't the same thing. I don't think it's that odd that people want to be able to play different archetypes of characters without being vastly outclassed by other party members in both power and versatility.
Not to mention that in a lot of those stories (though admittedly not all of them), the less powerful people can at least shine in their specific areas, which frequently isn't the case in D&D.
Perhaps they expected that playing any of the options presented to them would enable them to contribute to a roughly equal degree as people who picked other options? How stupid of them.
Casters being able to solve any type of problem and non-casters being lucky to solve on or two types with any skill isn't a law of nature. It's a design choice and while not necessarily a bad one (people do like D&D despite the vast imbalance, after all) it's certainly not the only one.
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2021-02-07, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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