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Thread: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
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2021-02-19, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Haven't finished the thread, so sorry of this has been said, but some feats are things Fighters could just do in previous editions. They were made into Feats presumably because that would allow any warrior type to take them, but it probably would've been better off tied to BAB (which I think Grod did). Personally, I don't think they thought Fighter out in 3e. It's like someone thought "if we're gonna make all the fighter subclasses separate classes, then they need to be able to acquire the fighter abilities somehow" and then they realized that means fighters don't have class abilities and so they just slapped a bunch of bonus feat on them and called it a day.
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2021-02-19, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
They also really should have added things like Weapon Supremacy earlier honestly if they really wanted you to invest in the Weapon Focus tree.
Oh actually feat trees in general; because after a few levels you’ve finished the tree and have to go to another. Which is part of the reason I presume core-only Fighter is underwhelming.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-20, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
I can't help but chuckle evilly reading responses from the people who just realized material components are all puns and reference gags.
Oh, that's how it's pronounced? For some reason my brain has always read it yee-NOG-oo and I don't think I ever bothered to ask a gnoll about its religious preferences. TBH, though, lore for true names always seems to stress exactness of pronunciation. So unless you're breaking out the faux-ld English for RP, You-Know-Who is significantly different enough from Yee-know-who or whatever it's supposed to be precisely, that I'd be pretty unconvinced by a DM trying to pull that crap. If every time someone gets close to a demon lord's name they pop out of the abyss, the prime material would be overrun.Last edited by Luccan; 2021-02-20 at 01:40 AM.
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2021-02-20, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Core only fighter is a mess. You get minor bonuses to hit and damage with 1 weapon, then can do it all again with your backup weapon. You can get +4 and no AoO for all combat maneuvers, provided you hit 13 int for combat expertise, but they all suck versus most anything a size category or more larger than you or that does not use manufactured weapons. For a significant feat and stat investment, you can enjoy maybe a bonus that offsets the penalty for language and non humanoid to feint and use your move action to deny your opponent who is probably bigher than you 1 or so AC for an attack by being flatfooted.
So core fighter or fightet in general is up there with being silly. Plus most of their feats and feat trees are stuff you would learn normally and be able to do if you had any actual weapon training.
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2021-02-20, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Even better, Wizard has a single spell (enlarge person) that does almost all of what you mentioned above (bonus to battle maneuvers + no AoOs [from reach]) plus a ton more. Extra reach + the ability to perform maneuvers on creatures of an entire size category larger (rather than auto-failing against Huge+ sized creatures) is crazy-good.
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-02-20 at 02:00 PM.
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2021-02-20, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Yep. First level spell replaces all the improved xxx spells but maybe improved feint, plus arguably mobility. Also is functional spring attack a lot of times since reach fixes a lot.
So saves your stats and we will conservatively say 6 feats. Or all your feats for like 6 levels.
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2021-02-20, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Well the DM that pulled that crap was Gary Gygax:
http://thecampaign20xx.blogspot.com/...-yeenoghu.html
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2021-02-20, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-02-20, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Even if it were true, Gygax wasn't right about everything.
Edit: I would also like to voice a complaint about multiclass penalties and favored classes. Favored classes seem intended to be cultural. Half-Orcs don't get the human/half-elf "Favored Class: All" feature because apparently the baseline assumption is that all half-orcs grow up in societies that favor Barbarians. The problem here is that they aren't assumed automatically to grow up with their Orc parent (who also have Favored Class: Barbarian), so do human Barbarians not have Favored Class: All? I know the actual answer is it's purely mechanical reinforcement of archetypes, but back in the day Half-Orcs and Dwarves not being Magic-Users meant something in the world. Being slightly worse at other classes, but only if you multiclass, doesn't mean anything on a world-building level.Last edited by Luccan; 2021-02-20 at 01:41 PM.
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2021-02-20, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
I understand why Monk can't wear armor - it's, supposedly, restricts their movement during various martial art moves
Thus - even a Mithral Chain Shirt (12.5 lbs) is a no-go
But, on the other hand, our supposed Monk could put on a Royal Outfit (15 lbs.), iron-shod iron-toed boots, knight's girdle, armored gorget, metallic enclosed helmet, and a pair of gauntlets - and still don't suffer any ill effects (as long as all aforementioned didn't encumbered them)
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2021-02-20, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Speaking of armor: The distinction between arcane magic and divine magic seems to exist solely to explain why Wizards can't wear armor but clerics can... except Bards are arcanists. Even though there are a lot of cleric spells with somatic components and many shared spells between the lists.
And there are classes that are meant for Gishes that are just "you have slightly less chance of your spells going wrong" as if being able to cast spells reliably in full-plate is something that's so ridiculously overpowered unless a cleric does it.
It comes across less as "armor interferes with arcane gestures" and more "the gods are jackasses and built reality to make it harder for people who don't worship them and get magic gifted to them to cast spells... Unless they're a bard."I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2021-02-20, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
I've always been driven crazy by another aspect of the same issue - armour penalties.
2 men of identical physique sneak into a castle at bight.
One is wearing black and gray clothes and a lightweight gray cloak over a mail shirt, holding tight a dagger in one hand and a buckler in the other.
The other wears a clown costume, is covered in magical gear (including armour pieces, heavy robes, and jewelry) and is carrying a bright red backpack filled withh cooling utensils.
Guess which one has a harder time sneaking around.
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2021-02-20, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
That really goes all the way back to OD&D. It's a mechanical conceit, at least back in the day, because Clerics were supposed to be healing and supporting as they had fewer "solve encounter" spells, plus they could only use bludgeoning weapons, so they needed something to both make them last a little longer in close combat and to have over Magic-Users. Also, prior to the creation of Paladins, Clerics represented the holy order of knights concept. From a narrative perspective, it could be argued Clerics are bestowed their power by a deity and thus have more time to train other things and Bards* are only dabblers, so they learn a few tricks to let them cast in the least inhibitive armor instead, but their trick means they require vocal components. Wizards, meanwhile, have to spend all their time preparing their minds in study to cast spells through study, but get the "best" spells in exchange. Sorcerers... don't have a great excuse.
*They were also Fighter/Thieves with Druid training originally, so they actually learned spells that could already be cast in some armor.Avatar by linklele
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2021-02-20, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
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2021-02-21, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Another silly thing that comes to mind is just how unbalanced martial combat styles are with each other.
High Tier
Dual wielding: lots of attacks, but it requires lots of feats to work, and still probably does less damage than two handed melee overall.
Two handed melee: big damage dice, x1,5 str mod, doubled power attack benefits, no feats required just to make it work.
Mid Tier
Archery: Range is nice, but the damage output is not that great and it struggles against DR.
Unarmed: Monk sucks, and is the most intuitive option. This is mid tier because there are some not too hard ways to make unarmed fighting work pretty well, and you can't be disarmed which is a neat side bonus.
Weapon and Shield: A bit more protection against the least threatening things (weapon attacks), but your damage output tanks compared to dual wielding or two handed melee.
Low Tier
Grappling: Loads of creatures are basically immune (freedom of movement, incorporeal, too big) and others have huge modifiers, ouchies that trigger on contact or more. Plus, when you grapple your ability to permanently take a creature out of the fight is just underwhelming.
Throwing: Like Archery, but worse. Shorter range and the "ammunition" has to be whole weapons, which skyrockets price since you need loads of magic weapons to chuck to overcome DR.
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2021-02-21, 06:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
...Archery actually worries about DR the least because you can just have a variety of arrows instead of multiple backup weapons. If anything dual wielding worries more about DR.
Also this is a bit more niche but the Bloodstorm Blade PrC and the Telekinetic Boomerang psionic power both help greatly with throwing builds.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-21, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
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2021-02-21, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
To be fair, you can usually do that with archery as well.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-02-21, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-21, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Also true, but once you get to the middle levels I'd say buying a bunch of different arrows is easier than affording half a dozen backup weapons.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-02-21, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
In my experience low to mid Op archers are fine - they go for bows with loads of different extra damage enchantments, they are very vulnerable to losing the bow though.
Grappling can be surprisingly effective low-mid Op - I saw a centaur character successfully grapple a black drgaon several times - every time the draogn then broke free, but it shut-down the dragon's ability to use full-round attacks on the party (very embarrassing for the DM).
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2021-02-21, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
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2021-02-21, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Going unarmed monk (but only for a level or two, up to six or so with ACFs; after that, Tashalatora psychic warrior is heavily suggested, if not mandatory) actually has one of the highest optimization ceilings (if not the highest ceiling) out of any melee option, and it doesn't do at all poorly at ranged, either, with the right setup. It's not hard at all to get a +40 melee/ranged unarmed strike equivalent pre-epic by stacking lots of items and effects that all affect your unarmed strike.
But if you don't do that (for instance, if you're sticking with Core only), yeah, unarmed does suck horribly, and it has a very low optimization floor.Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-02-21 at 03:09 PM.
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2021-02-21, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-21, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
I just wanted to expand upon your point a bit. Yes, I'm agreeing with you, just tossing more detail in as to just how good it can get and why. I could go into even more detail (for instance, pointing out some insane weapon ability combos you can get going when you have +40 or more to work with), but that's not something I can do and not go off-topic here.
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2021-02-21, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
I'd again repeat tht I've heard that Monk/fighter Gestalt is the best option for unarmed combat, assuming core only, and a reason why people like Gestalt.
I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2021-02-21, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Even with gestalt, unless you absolutely have to run a low-tier build and cannot multiclass, there's no reason to take more than one or two monk levels (up to six with ACFs) that can't be done way better by multiclassing.
And if you are stuck in such a build paradigm, monk certainly isn't the worst gestalt half you could do, if you're allowed to properly optimize.⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣
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2021-02-21, 10:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
The half-troll template turns anything it's applied to into a giant.
It can be applied to any creature type.
The example in the book is a half-troll bearded devil.
A being made of evil mating with an ugly giant created a devil that wasn't made of evil instead of a troll that was partially made of evil(half-fiend troll.)
This raises the question... If two creatures that have a "half" template and they mate... What decides what the offspring is?I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
Read my fanfiction here. Homebrew Material Here Rater Reads the Hobbit and Dracula
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2021-02-21, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2021-02-22, 01:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?
Eh, I'm fine with that one... I mean a half-fiend troll is a troll with fiend traits and a half-troll fiend is a fiend with troll traits I guess.
Though the "half" part is kinda silly I guess, especially since "half-fiendish" is actually a stronger template than "fiendish" and so on.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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