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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harrow View Post
    Feats have already been brought up in a general sense, but I'd like to bring special attention to Power Attack. Being able to put a little more "oomph" in an attack, but sacrificing control in doing so makes sense and doesn't seem silly at all to me. But, being a feat, a special technique that you need to dedicate training to in order to pull off, that's just wacky in my book.

    While that's one of the biggest offenders to me, so many of the Fighter feats in the Player's Handbook just feel like they took something every fighter should be able to do, like fire an arrow into melee or bull rush someone, then gated them behind feats. It just all feels like padding. And there still aren't enough feats in core for a 20th level Fighter to have anything to be excited over picking for his "capstone".
    Haven't finished the thread, so sorry of this has been said, but some feats are things Fighters could just do in previous editions. They were made into Feats presumably because that would allow any warrior type to take them, but it probably would've been better off tied to BAB (which I think Grod did). Personally, I don't think they thought Fighter out in 3e. It's like someone thought "if we're gonna make all the fighter subclasses separate classes, then they need to be able to acquire the fighter abilities somehow" and then they realized that means fighters don't have class abilities and so they just slapped a bunch of bonus feat on them and called it a day.
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  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    They also really should have added things like Weapon Supremacy earlier honestly if they really wanted you to invest in the Weapon Focus tree.

    Oh actually feat trees in general; because after a few levels you’ve finished the tree and have to go to another. Which is part of the reason I presume core-only Fighter is underwhelming.
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    I can't help but chuckle evilly reading responses from the people who just realized material components are all puns and reference gags.

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Well if we include stuff that applies across editions there is a demon whose name sounds like “You know who” explicitly so that people trying to talk about other demons without accidentally summoning them through mentioning their names will instead accidentally summon this demon through saying things like “We better be careful not to attract the attention of you know who!”.

    https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/fea...-prince-gnolls

    There is also the gelatinous cube, the only monster I know of that evolved to conveniently fit dungeons mappable in graph paper.
    Oh, that's how it's pronounced? For some reason my brain has always read it yee-NOG-oo and I don't think I ever bothered to ask a gnoll about its religious preferences. TBH, though, lore for true names always seems to stress exactness of pronunciation. So unless you're breaking out the faux-ld English for RP, You-Know-Who is significantly different enough from Yee-know-who or whatever it's supposed to be precisely, that I'd be pretty unconvinced by a DM trying to pull that crap. If every time someone gets close to a demon lord's name they pop out of the abyss, the prime material would be overrun.
    Last edited by Luccan; 2021-02-20 at 01:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Core only fighter is a mess. You get minor bonuses to hit and damage with 1 weapon, then can do it all again with your backup weapon. You can get +4 and no AoO for all combat maneuvers, provided you hit 13 int for combat expertise, but they all suck versus most anything a size category or more larger than you or that does not use manufactured weapons. For a significant feat and stat investment, you can enjoy maybe a bonus that offsets the penalty for language and non humanoid to feint and use your move action to deny your opponent who is probably bigher than you 1 or so AC for an attack by being flatfooted.

    So core fighter or fightet in general is up there with being silly. Plus most of their feats and feat trees are stuff you would learn normally and be able to do if you had any actual weapon training.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    Core only fighter is a mess. You get minor bonuses to hit and damage with 1 weapon, then can do it all again with your backup weapon. You can get +4 and no AoO for all combat maneuvers, provided you hit 13 int for combat expertise, but they all suck versus most anything a size category or more larger than you or that does not use manufactured weapons. For a significant feat and stat investment, you can enjoy maybe a bonus that offsets the penalty for language and non humanoid to feint and use your move action to deny your opponent who is probably bigher than you 1 or so AC for an attack by being flatfooted.

    So core fighter or fightet in general is up there with being silly. Plus most of their feats and feat trees are stuff you would learn normally and be able to do if you had any actual weapon training.
    Even better, Wizard has a single spell (enlarge person) that does almost all of what you mentioned above (bonus to battle maneuvers + no AoOs [from reach]) plus a ton more. Extra reach + the ability to perform maneuvers on creatures of an entire size category larger (rather than auto-failing against Huge+ sized creatures) is crazy-good.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-02-20 at 02:00 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Yep. First level spell replaces all the improved xxx spells but maybe improved feint, plus arguably mobility. Also is functional spring attack a lot of times since reach fixes a lot.
    So saves your stats and we will conservatively say 6 feats. Or all your feats for like 6 levels.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I can't help but chuckle evilly reading responses from the people who just realized material components are all puns and reference gags.



    Oh, that's how it's pronounced? For some reason my brain has always read it yee-NOG-oo and I don't think I ever bothered to ask a gnoll about its religious preferences. TBH, though, lore for true names always seems to stress exactness of pronunciation. So unless you're breaking out the faux-ld English for RP, You-Know-Who is significantly different enough from Yee-know-who or whatever it's supposed to be precisely, that I'd be pretty unconvinced by a DM trying to pull that crap. If every time someone gets close to a demon lord's name they pop out of the abyss, the prime material would be overrun.
    Well the DM that pulled that crap was Gary Gygax:

    http://thecampaign20xx.blogspot.com/...-yeenoghu.html

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Well the DM that pulled that crap was Gary Gygax:

    http://thecampaign20xx.blogspot.com/...-yeenoghu.html
    That article explicitly says it's false.
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Well the DM that pulled that crap was Gary Gygax:

    http://thecampaign20xx.blogspot.com/...-yeenoghu.html
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    That article explicitly says it's false.
    Even if it were true, Gygax wasn't right about everything.

    Edit: I would also like to voice a complaint about multiclass penalties and favored classes. Favored classes seem intended to be cultural. Half-Orcs don't get the human/half-elf "Favored Class: All" feature because apparently the baseline assumption is that all half-orcs grow up in societies that favor Barbarians. The problem here is that they aren't assumed automatically to grow up with their Orc parent (who also have Favored Class: Barbarian), so do human Barbarians not have Favored Class: All? I know the actual answer is it's purely mechanical reinforcement of archetypes, but back in the day Half-Orcs and Dwarves not being Magic-Users meant something in the world. Being slightly worse at other classes, but only if you multiclass, doesn't mean anything on a world-building level.
    Last edited by Luccan; 2021-02-20 at 01:41 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    I understand why Monk can't wear armor - it's, supposedly, restricts their movement during various martial art moves
    Thus - even a Mithral Chain Shirt (12.5 lbs) is a no-go
    But, on the other hand, our supposed Monk could put on a Royal Outfit (15 lbs.), iron-shod iron-toed boots, knight's girdle, armored gorget, metallic enclosed helmet, and a pair of gauntlets - and still don't suffer any ill effects (as long as all aforementioned didn't encumbered them)

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Speaking of armor: The distinction between arcane magic and divine magic seems to exist solely to explain why Wizards can't wear armor but clerics can... except Bards are arcanists. Even though there are a lot of cleric spells with somatic components and many shared spells between the lists.

    And there are classes that are meant for Gishes that are just "you have slightly less chance of your spells going wrong" as if being able to cast spells reliably in full-plate is something that's so ridiculously overpowered unless a cleric does it.

    It comes across less as "armor interferes with arcane gestures" and more "the gods are jackasses and built reality to make it harder for people who don't worship them and get magic gifted to them to cast spells... Unless they're a bard."
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    I understand why Monk can't wear armor - it's, supposedly, restricts their movement during various martial art moves
    Thus - even a Mithral Chain Shirt (12.5 lbs) is a no-go
    But, on the other hand, our supposed Monk could put on a Royal Outfit (15 lbs.), iron-shod iron-toed boots, knight's girdle, armored gorget, metallic enclosed helmet, and a pair of gauntlets - and still don't suffer any ill effects (as long as all aforementioned didn't encumbered them)
    I've always been driven crazy by another aspect of the same issue - armour penalties.

    2 men of identical physique sneak into a castle at bight.

    One is wearing black and gray clothes and a lightweight gray cloak over a mail shirt, holding tight a dagger in one hand and a buckler in the other.

    The other wears a clown costume, is covered in magical gear (including armour pieces, heavy robes, and jewelry) and is carrying a bright red backpack filled withh cooling utensils.

    Guess which one has a harder time sneaking around.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Speaking of armor: The distinction between arcane magic and divine magic seems to exist solely to explain why Wizards can't wear armor but clerics can... except Bards are arcanists. Even though there are a lot of cleric spells with somatic components and many shared spells between the lists.

    And there are classes that are meant for Gishes that are just "you have slightly less chance of your spells going wrong" as if being able to cast spells reliably in full-plate is something that's so ridiculously overpowered unless a cleric does it.

    It comes across less as "armor interferes with arcane gestures" and more "the gods are jackasses and built reality to make it harder for people who don't worship them and get magic gifted to them to cast spells... Unless they're a bard."
    That really goes all the way back to OD&D. It's a mechanical conceit, at least back in the day, because Clerics were supposed to be healing and supporting as they had fewer "solve encounter" spells, plus they could only use bludgeoning weapons, so they needed something to both make them last a little longer in close combat and to have over Magic-Users. Also, prior to the creation of Paladins, Clerics represented the holy order of knights concept. From a narrative perspective, it could be argued Clerics are bestowed their power by a deity and thus have more time to train other things and Bards* are only dabblers, so they learn a few tricks to let them cast in the least inhibitive armor instead, but their trick means they require vocal components. Wizards, meanwhile, have to spend all their time preparing their minds in study to cast spells through study, but get the "best" spells in exchange. Sorcerers... don't have a great excuse.

    *They were also Fighter/Thieves with Druid training originally, so they actually learned spells that could already be cast in some armor.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ottriman View Post
    Yeah you get a +3 bonus at a skill when you put your first point in. This replaces the x4 skill points at level 1, effectively it's the same thing as always maxing a skill when you're making a first level character.

    I like this change because of it stopping the order of multiclassing from changing your skill points total.
    It only applies to CLASS skills. It is called a class skill bonus. There is no such bonus for nonclass skills, but there is also no penalty to such skills. The end result is very definitely an overall positive, but it does result in far less diversity at low levels.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Another silly thing that comes to mind is just how unbalanced martial combat styles are with each other.

    High Tier

    Dual wielding: lots of attacks, but it requires lots of feats to work, and still probably does less damage than two handed melee overall.

    Two handed melee: big damage dice, x1,5 str mod, doubled power attack benefits, no feats required just to make it work.

    Mid Tier


    Archery: Range is nice, but the damage output is not that great and it struggles against DR.

    Unarmed: Monk sucks, and is the most intuitive option. This is mid tier because there are some not too hard ways to make unarmed fighting work pretty well, and you can't be disarmed which is a neat side bonus.

    Weapon and Shield: A bit more protection against the least threatening things (weapon attacks), but your damage output tanks compared to dual wielding or two handed melee.

    Low Tier

    Grappling: Loads of creatures are basically immune (freedom of movement, incorporeal, too big) and others have huge modifiers, ouchies that trigger on contact or more. Plus, when you grapple your ability to permanently take a creature out of the fight is just underwhelming.

    Throwing: Like Archery, but worse. Shorter range and the "ammunition" has to be whole weapons, which skyrockets price since you need loads of magic weapons to chuck to overcome DR.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    ...Archery actually worries about DR the least because you can just have a variety of arrows instead of multiple backup weapons. If anything dual wielding worries more about DR.

    Also this is a bit more niche but the Bloodstorm Blade PrC and the Telekinetic Boomerang psionic power both help greatly with throwing builds.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    ...Archery actually worries about DR the least because you can just have a variety of arrows instead of multiple backup weapons. If anything dual wielding worries more about DR.
    But your damage per arrow is low enough that it hurts a lot when you cannot bypass it.

    And I've never seen anyone play a dual wield build without large sources of extra damage per hit (most popular being sneak attack) that makes DR a relatively minor issue.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    To be fair, you can usually do that with archery as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    To be fair, you can usually do that with archery as well.
    True, though precision damage sources like Sneak attack are usually restricted to 30ft max range, which undercuts the point of being an archer somewhat.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Also true, but once you get to the middle levels I'd say buying a bunch of different arrows is easier than affording half a dozen backup weapons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    In my experience low to mid Op archers are fine - they go for bows with loads of different extra damage enchantments, they are very vulnerable to losing the bow though.

    Grappling can be surprisingly effective low-mid Op - I saw a centaur character successfully grapple a black drgaon several times - every time the draogn then broke free, but it shut-down the dragon's ability to use full-round attacks on the party (very embarrassing for the DM).

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Also true, but once you get to the middle levels I'd say buying a bunch of different arrows is easier than affording half a dozen backup weapons.
    Also the sort of mockery which accompanies a golfbag-of-weapons doesn't apply to a quiver-of-arrows.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ottriman View Post
    Unarmed: Monk sucks, and is the most intuitive option. This is mid tier because there are some not too hard ways to make unarmed fighting work pretty well, and you can't be disarmed which is a neat side bonus.
    Going unarmed monk (but only for a level or two, up to six or so with ACFs; after that, Tashalatora psychic warrior is heavily suggested, if not mandatory) actually has one of the highest optimization ceilings (if not the highest ceiling) out of any melee option, and it doesn't do at all poorly at ranged, either, with the right setup. It's not hard at all to get a +40 melee/ranged unarmed strike equivalent pre-epic by stacking lots of items and effects that all affect your unarmed strike.

    But if you don't do that (for instance, if you're sticking with Core only), yeah, unarmed does suck horribly, and it has a very low optimization floor.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-02-21 at 03:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Going unarmed monk (but only for a level or two, up to six or so with ACFs; after that, Tashalatora psychic warrior is heavily suggested, if not mandatory) actually has one of the highest optimization ceilings (if not the highest ceiling) out of any melee option, and it doesn't do at all poorly at ranged, either, with the right setup. It's not hard at all to get a +40 melee/ranged unarmed strike equivalent pre-epic by stacking lots of items and effects that all affect your unarmed strike.

    But if you don't do that (for instance, if you're sticking with Core only), yeah, unarmed does suck horribly, and it has a very low optimization floor.
    You are pretty much agreeing with me (put it in mid because it can be anywhere from very bad to very good).

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ottriman View Post
    You are pretty much agreeing with me (put it in mid because it can be anywhere from very bad to very good).
    I just wanted to expand upon your point a bit. Yes, I'm agreeing with you, just tossing more detail in as to just how good it can get and why. I could go into even more detail (for instance, pointing out some insane weapon ability combos you can get going when you have +40 or more to work with), but that's not something I can do and not go off-topic here.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    I'd again repeat tht I've heard that Monk/fighter Gestalt is the best option for unarmed combat, assuming core only, and a reason why people like Gestalt.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I'd again repeat tht I've heard that Monk/fighter Gestalt is the best option for unarmed combat, assuming core only, and a reason why people like Gestalt.
    Even with gestalt, unless you absolutely have to run a low-tier build and cannot multiclass, there's no reason to take more than one or two monk levels (up to six with ACFs) that can't be done way better by multiclassing.

    And if you are stuck in such a build paradigm, monk certainly isn't the worst gestalt half you could do, if you're allowed to properly optimize.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    The half-troll template turns anything it's applied to into a giant.

    It can be applied to any creature type.

    The example in the book is a half-troll bearded devil.

    A being made of evil mating with an ugly giant created a devil that wasn't made of evil instead of a troll that was partially made of evil(half-fiend troll.)

    This raises the question... If two creatures that have a "half" template and they mate... What decides what the offspring is?
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    You are a meteor
    Falling star
    You soar your
    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    What decides what the offspring is?
    The DM.

    1 0 c h a r

  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The half-troll template turns anything it's applied to into a giant.

    It can be applied to any creature type.

    The example in the book is a half-troll bearded devil.

    A being made of evil mating with an ugly giant created a devil that wasn't made of evil instead of a troll that was partially made of evil(half-fiend troll.)

    This raises the question... If two creatures that have a "half" template and they mate... What decides what the offspring is?
    Eh, I'm fine with that one... I mean a half-fiend troll is a troll with fiend traits and a half-troll fiend is a fiend with troll traits I guess.

    Though the "half" part is kinda silly I guess, especially since "half-fiendish" is actually a stronger template than "fiendish" and so on.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

    Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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