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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    The DM.

    1 0 c h a r
    That would be rare enough that as DM I would go for fraternal twins and have one of each!

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    "Fiendish" is more "creature that has adapted to the Lower Planes" - a fiendish cat isn't a cat with one fiend parent - it's a cat whose ancestors migrated to the Lower planes and became tainted with Lower Plane energy.

    A fiend, by contrast, is a creature that's native to the Lower Planes, not the descendants of an immigrant.

    And a half-fiend has one fiend parent - the template is called half-fiend, not half-fiendish.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    That article explicitly says it's false.
    My mistake! Looks like my own DM of times past fell for that urban legend, and I just followed along and didn't read the article too carefully.

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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Fiendish" is more "creature that has adapted to the Lower Planes" - a fiendish cat isn't a cat with one fiend parent - it's a cat whose ancestors migrated to the Lower planes and became tainted with Lower Plane energy.

    A fiend, by contrast, is a creature that's native to the Lower Planes, not the descendants of an immigrant.

    And a half-fiend has one fiend parent - the template is called half-fiend, not half-fiendish.
    Oh, okay.

    Guess that's the same with half-celestial and celestial creatures, but still a little stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    This is reminding me of the whole "If a Dragon and a Celestial mate, is the result a Dragon with Half-Celestial or a Celestial with Half-Dragon?" question.

    Up to the GM I suppose.

    But its funny to imagine both results happening from the same coupling, that would be really strange.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Wasn’t there a hierarchy of creature types somewhere that determined what creature type would “trump” the other in template cases? I think outsider wins out.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ottriman View Post
    This is reminding me of the whole "If a Dragon and a Celestial mate, is the result a Dragon with Half-Celestial or a Celestial with Half-Dragon?" question.

    Up to the GM I suppose.

    But its funny to imagine both results happening from the same coupling, that would be really strange.
    I rather like that idea - it expresses different traits being inherited differently - the "randomness of genetics".

    For comparison, look at the three half-dragons depicted in the Draketooth family tree. They all look very different:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Wasn’t there a hierarchy of creature types somewhere that determined what creature type would “trump” the other in template cases? I think outsider wins out.
    There was - in Savage Species, a 3.0 book. The "type pyramid" never made it into 3.5 though.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-22 at 09:34 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Eh, I'm fine with that one... I mean a half-fiend troll is a troll with fiend traits and a half-troll fiend is a fiend with troll traits I guess.

    Though the "half" part is kinda silly I guess, especially since "half-fiendish" is actually a stronger template than "fiendish" and so on.
    The way I think about it: A half-fiend is half a fiend.

    a fiendish creature is a fiend... ish.

    It is not a fiend, but it's like a fiend. For whatever reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Wasn’t there a hierarchy of creature types somewhere that determined what creature type would “trump” the other in template cases? I think outsider wins out.
    Except a Half-Troll Bearded Devil, the example given in the book, is a Giant, not an Outsider.

    Anyway, an odd thing that occurred to me while writing this:

    A half-fiend is the offspring of a non-fiend creature and an Outsider with the Evil Subtype.

    A half-fiend is, assuming that template stacking shenanigans aren't in play, an outsider with the Evil Subtype.

    Thus, by RAW a Half-Fiend's offspring will always be a Half-Fiend even generations later.

    Which does make a bit of sense if we consider that, as an outsider with the Evil Subtype, the Half-Fiend is literally made of evil and their non-fiend parent is just providing a template to base off of instead of it being "proper" sexual reproduction, but...

    Tieflings are, in 3.5, the result of humans intebreeding with fiends until such a point in time as they are a true-breeding species, with the human aspects being dominant over the diluted fiend traits.

    By RAW, this is literally impossible.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    A half-fiend is the offspring of a non-fiend creature and an Outsider with the Evil Subtype.
    Actually it's not - it has "Always X evil" but not the Evil subtype.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm

    It's also a Native Outsider rather than an Extraplanar Outsider,
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Actually it's not - it has "Always X evil" but not the Evil subtype.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm

    It's also a Native Outsider rather than an Extraplanar Outsider,
    ...Huh, there really isn't anything forcing a half-fiend to be evil(or a half-celestial to be good) then, is there? I mean, if extraplanar outsiders literally comprised of their alignments can very occasionally change...

    Heck, they wouldn't even incorrectly ping as the wrong alignment if they don't have a subtype then. Of course there'd be the standard prejudice and whatnot but if you're in the camp of "sentient mortals with free will are not inherently forced into alignments" like Eberron does(and even more "standard" settings often have exceptions) then it should be at least possible in theory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I rather like that idea - it expresses different traits being inherited differently - the "randomness of genetics".

    For comparison, look at the three half-dragons depicted in the Draketooth family tree. They all look very different:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html
    That variance is pretty neat I agree.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    ...Huh, there really isn't anything forcing a half-fiend to be evil(or a half-celestial to be good) then, is there? I mean, if extraplanar outsiders literally comprised of their alignments can very occasionally change...

    Heck, they wouldn't even incorrectly ping as the wrong alignment if they don't have a subtype then. Of course there'd be the standard prejudice and whatnot but if you're in the camp of "sentient mortals with free will are not inherently forced into alignments" like Eberron does(and even more "standard" settings often have exceptions) then it should be at least possible in theory.
    Yup. "Always Evil" allows for rare exceptions, so does the [Evil] subtype. "Always Evil" without the [Evil] Subtype is probably more likely to change, than "Always Evil" with the subtype.


    For that matter, there's beings with the [Evil] subtype that are only usually Evil (cambions From Expedition to the Demonweb Pits - which are what you get if you cross a fiend, specifically a demon, with a planetouched, most often a tiefling).

    It's kind of hilarious that 1/2 fiends are "always evil" (meaning only a miniscule fraction are Not Evil) whereas cambions, which are typically 5/8 fiend or so, are only "usually evil" with the statistic for Not Evil cambions, being 10%.

    Another half-fiend variant is in Heroes of Horror - the Unholy Scion. Like Cambions they have the [evil] subtype, but unlike Cambions they are "Always Evil". They look much more like their non-fiend parent than regular half-fiends do - no wings or scales - only a hint of menace about the eyes, is typical. Typically they are what happens when a fiend attempts to possess an unborn infant - they end up merging with it permanently. The other source of unholy scions, is when the conception occurs in a "tainted" area.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-22 at 10:06 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Yup. "Always Evil" allows for rare exceptions, so does the [Evil] subtype. "Always Evil" without the [Evil] Subtype is probably more likely to change, than "Always Evil" with the subtype.


    For that matter, there's beings with the [Evil] subtype that are only usually Evil (cambions From Expedition to the Demonweb Pits - which are what you get if you cross a fiend, specifically a demon, with a planetouched, most often a tiefling).

    It's kind of hilarious that 1/2 fiends are "always evil" (meaning only a miniscule fraction are Not Evil) whereas cambions, which are typically 5/8 fiend or so, are only "usually evil" with the statistic for Not Evil cambions, being 10%.

    Another half-fiend variant is in Heroes of Horror - the Unholy Scion. Like Cambions they have the [evil] subtype, but unlike Cambions they are "Always Evil". They look much more like their non-fiend parent than regular half-fiends do - no wings or scales - only a hint of menace about the eyes, is typical. Typically they are what happens when a fiend attempts to possess an unborn infant - they end up merging with it permanently. The other source of unholy scions, is when the conception occurs in a "tainted" area.
    Huh, I figured "cambion" was another word for half-fiend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    The definition of "cambion" tends to vary from edition to edition.

    https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Cambion

    In 1st- and 2nd-edition Dungeons & Dragons, and by extension the Forgotten Realms, "cambion" was a term that meant the always-male offspring of a demon and a human female. In 3rd edition, it was a synonym for any humanoid half-fiend (according to the Monster Manual 3rd edition). The Expedition to the Demonweb Pits adventure threw in a third definition, claiming that a cambion was the child of a demon and a tiefling. Then, with 4th edition a fourth meaning was given: the child of a human and a devil. In the 5th Edition Monster Manual, cambions are simply the offspring of any variety of fiend with any humanoid.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Oh right, the Wall of the Faithless was still around in 3.5e.

    I hear in 5e they don't mention it much now, and when they did they specifically said that you have to seriously hate all the gods to count as Faithless(which I believe was not the case originally).

    Personally it made sense as "Myrkul was an asshat" but the BS really started when Ao/the other gods(I have seen claims for both) said that it had to stay when Kelemvor sent in the demolishing team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post

    I hear in 5e they don't mention it much now, and when they did they specifically said that you have to seriously hate all the gods to count as Faithless(which I believe was not the case originally).
    If so, 5e may have gotten the idea from 3.0's Deities and Demigods, which emphasised that it was "actively opposing the worship of the gods" that got you classified as "Faithless". Though 5e appears to conflate the False (those who betray their deities) with the Faithless, giving them the same punishment:


    The exact phrasing in 5e's Sword Coast Adventurer Guide:

    "Souls that are unclaimed by the servants of the gods are judged by Kelemvor, who decides the fate of each one. Some are charged with serving as guides for other lost souls, while others are transformed into squirming larvae and cast into the dust. The truly false and faithless are mortared into the Wall of the Faithless, the great barrier that bounds the City of the Dead, where their souls slowly dissolve and begin to become part of the stuff of the Wall itself."
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    If so, 5e may have gotten the idea from 3.0's Deities and Demigods, which emphasised that it was "actively opposing the worship of the gods" that got you classified as "Faithless". Though 5e appears to conflate the False (those who betray their deities) with the Faithless, giving them the same punishment:


    The exact phrasing in 5e's Sword Coast Adventurer Guide:

    "Souls that are unclaimed by the servants of the gods are judged by Kelemvor, who decides the fate of each one. Some are charged with serving as guides for other lost souls, while others are transformed into squirming larvae and cast into the dust. The truly false and faithless are mortared into the Wall of the Faithless, the great barrier that bounds the City of the Dead, where their souls slowly dissolve and begin to become part of the stuff of the Wall itself."
    I believe that was actually removed in the errata.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Regardless, there are no actual rules for heredity past the first half.

    It's entirely possible to have a gigantic, scaled, musclebound berserker that's technically a human because his ancestors kept breeding with powerful creatures.

    Abobmination(Bob to his friends) would have been a perfectly average human, straight 10s across the board... except he's half-fey, half-troll, half-minotaur, half-fiend, and half red dragon.

    Meaning that as a "perfectly average" person of his rich, mixed ancestry, he has:

    str: 32
    dex: 18
    con: 18
    int: 10
    wis: 12
    cha: 14

    And a hoard of other special powers. And this is both rules legal and consistent with how various half templates are applied.
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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Regardless, there are no actual rules for heredity past the first half.

    It's entirely possible to have a gigantic, scaled, musclebound berserker that's technically a human because his ancestors kept breeding with powerful creatures.

    Abobmination(Bob to his friends) would have been a perfectly average human, straight 10s across the board... except he's half-fey, half-troll, half-minotaur, half-fiend, and half red dragon.

    Meaning that as a "perfectly average" person of his rich, mixed ancestry, he has:

    str: 32
    dex: 18
    con: 18
    int: 10
    wis: 12
    cha: 14

    And a hoard of other special powers. And this is both rules legal and consistent with how various half templates are applied.
    I'm fairly sure that realistically at least two or three of those would get diluted down the line. So like fiendish and draconic and stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I'm fairly sure that realistically at least two or three of those would get diluted down the line. So like fiendish and draconic and stuff.
    Maybe his mother had an...interesting love life?

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I'm fairly sure that realistically at least two or three of those would get diluted down the line. So like fiendish and draconic and stuff.
    Realistically yes, but by RAW no.

    Also for the record half-fiend and half-dragon are applied last so they'd be the least likely to be diluted.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Material components were mentioned a little bit earlier. I'd say they're up there for "silliest material." Material components are a joke - literally. They're all puns and awful "dad jokes." Fireball: bat guano and sulfur (-> gunpowder). Message: a short piece of copper wire (->telegraph line). Hideous Laughter: throw tarts at the target and wave a feather (->pie to the face and tickle them).
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    ...Oh god you're right.
    Some of them, sure, but definitely not all of them. Animal Messenger: A morsel of food the animal likes. Animate Dead: Onyx worth 25 gp per HD of the creature animated. Acid Fog: Powdered Peas mixed with Powdered Animal Hoof. Antimagic Field: A pinch of iron filings or iron powder. Arcane Eye: A bit of Bat Fur. Arcane Lock: Gold dust worth 25 gp. Atonement: Burning Incense. Augury: A set of marked bones, sticks, or similar tokens worth 25 gp. Banishment: Any item that is distasteful to the target.

    They're all thematic, rather than puns and dad jokes. For arcane eye, I can see the connection between bat fur and an invisible sensor that sends you information when you concentrate. But I'm not really seeing a pun or joke there, rather just an attempt to make the material component fit the spell.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Poor Bob. With an ECL so high I wonder how he survived long enough to get the xp (from super high cr opponents) to get past his first class level, if ever.

    Wait wasn’t the multiply templated villain in Order of the Stick in “Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails” a similar idea?

    Interesting that one can apply the fiendish template and its cognates to humanoids. A city of axiomatic humans could be a rogue pack’s worst nightmare. Sneak attacks would be hard to get!
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Leaving aside the question of whether angel summoner and BMX kid should adventure in the same party, I'd say the idea that a 19th level monk or fighter and a 19th level wizard are considered to have the same level, have acquired the same number of experience points, be allotted the same ECL, have the DMG suggest the same WBL, contribute to the party's average/net character level (for purposes of XP for given CR of encounter), and of course be able to multiclass into a 1st level version of each other instead of take the 20th level of the class, all speak to a silly level of 'declaring the unequal to be equal by fiat.'

    Another silliness being the undead creature type, because deathknights, liches, ghosts, vampires, and zombies all make sense as getting the same BAB, avg. hp/hd, saves, and skill points per hd, despite filling decidedly distinct iconic roles.

    The game suddenly deciding it needed to enforce 'realism' in not giving nonliving monsters such as undead and constructs constitution scores -- leading to all sorts of wackiness such as needing to make your giant zombies 20+ HD (and thus unturnable at the level used, even though the PCs just turned their vampire boss or such) just to give them the hp needed to fill the 'wall of meat' role you intended.

    Honestly, just about every time 3rd Ed decided it was the enforcer of realism is when it proverbially tripped over a rake. 'But it just makes sense' that drawing a weapon or getting up from prone would provoke an AoO leads to martial combat ending up looking like a Three Stooges short (since tripping and disarming your opponents, then attacking when they try to recover, is an optimal strategy that must be spammed until the end of time). 'If you move during the 6-second round [that no one forced the designers to make the 3e rounds], you have less time to make attacks' leads to the no-full attack if more than 5' move rule which (frex) makes monks basic class building blocks inherently at war with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Tagging on to say this only works really well when you apply the "text trumps table" rule even though the RAI on spell progression is extremely clear here, because otherwise you're losing plenty of caster levels for that flexibility.
    You know, given that the edition is closed, we're pretty much stuck with it. However, BitD when it was still the current edition, someone should have come forward and said something like 'No. when text and table contradict each other, the fanbase should recognize this as an error, and demand errata, clarifying which was the intended outcome.' I understand the reasoning for generalized rules for the case of rules contradiction (and general v. specific and later publication date make sense, although they too have lead to much silliness), but contradiction within a single product ought to have been treated like an error to be corrected.

    Most of the other errors that come to mind require reading the rules in bad faith or switching between game and IRL physics or similar, although if one goes there the railgun or commoner chicken-summoning black hole ones are amusingly silly.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Oh yeah, chicken infested.

    Honestly, that only makes sense if you assume it's a curse.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Oh yeah, chicken infested.

    Honestly, that only makes sense if you assume it's a curse.
    True. The silly (well, silliest) way to use it is to take quickdraw (making drawing a weapon a free action, of which you have 'infinite' per round). This means you can create an infinite number of chickens in your 5' space during a round, creating a black hole. Works the same with the craft skill and creating an infinite number of 0 gp quarterstaves requiring 0 base materials. Both require reading the rules in bad faith or switching between game and IRL physics, which is why I included the disclaimer.

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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Honestly, I always preferred a necromancer build with destructive retribution.

    It requires a bit of build-up, but chickens use the same stats as ravens. You build up a hell of a lot of chicken skeletons and use them as suicide bombers.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    True. The silly (well, silliest) way to use it is to take quickdraw (making drawing a weapon a free action, of which you have 'infinite' per round). This means you can create an infinite number of chickens in your 5' space during a round, creating a black hole. Works the same with the craft skill and creating an infinite number of 0 gp quarterstaves requiring 0 base materials. Both require reading the rules in bad faith or switching between game and IRL physics, which is why I included the disclaimer.
    I'm pretty sure choking up a valley with chickens(for example) doesn't require either of them, at least. Plus a lot of hungry monsters won't bother killing you if you can feed them enough.
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    Default Re: Silliest Material in 3.5e?

    The most reliable ways to live forever, a Lich of one persuasion or another or a ghost with 15 or more hit dice, both involve dying first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The most reliable ways to live forever, a Lich of one persuasion or another or a ghost with 15 or more hit dice, both involve dying first.
    I'm guessing becoming an elan doesn't count.

    Also why 15 or more HD?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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