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    Default can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    stuff like spells with target:weapon or weapon enchantments. turn an improvised weapon into a mwk improvised weapon and apply weapon enchantments.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Unless the spell says it gets treated as a magic item then it doesn't make it a "magic item" for the purpose of being masterwork.

    WotC uses weapon as "weapon" or "category of weapon" freely without standardized text to differentiate them. In the case of the magic weapon spell for example, there is the implication of targeting manufactured weapons. An improvised weapon can't also be manufactured to be a weapon otherwise it would not be an improvised weapon.

    That said, there is no rule preventing an item actively being used as an improvised weapon from being targeted by target: weapon spells.

    That said, I've read that dragon's brawler class gives you the ability to choose improvised weapon for feats like weapon focus. This would let you qualify it to be a kensai's signature weapon. This would make it a magic weapon and thus a masterwork item.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Unless the spell says it gets treated as a magic item then it doesn't make it a "magic item" for the purpose of being masterwork.
    i think you misunderstood. i was asking if i could turn a improvised weapon like a chair and turn it into a mwk improvised weapon using the normal mwk weapon crafting rules, and then use the magic weapon enchanting rules to turn it into a +1 flaming improvised weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    WotC uses weapon as "weapon" or "category of weapon" freely without standardized text to differentiate them. In the case of the magic weapon spell for example, there is the implication of targeting manufactured weapons. An improvised weapon can't also be manufactured to be a weapon otherwise it would not be an improvised weapon.

    That said, there is no rule preventing an item actively being used as an improvised weapon from being targeted by target: weapon spells.
    so your saying i can cast magic weapon on a chair? cause i want to do something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    That said, I've read that dragon's brawler class gives you the ability to choose improvised weapon for feats like weapon focus. This would let you qualify it to be a kensai's signature weapon. This would make it a magic weapon and thus a masterwork item.
    drunken master also does something like that iunno.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    i think you misunderstood. i was asking if i could turn a improvised weapon like a chair and turn it into a mwk improvised weapon using the normal mwk weapon crafting rules, and then use the magic weapon enchanting rules to turn it into a +1 flaming improvised weapon.
    You can't make a masterwork improvised weapon because then it would be designed to be a weapon and no longer improvised. At best it would be a custom masterwork weapon. That's why I mentioned a work around if it was important to you. Since you can't make a masterwork improvised weapon, find a way to classify it as one.


    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    so your saying i can cast magic weapon on a chair? cause i want to do something like that.
    Technicality says you can. If you use it as a weapon it is a weapon. I personally wouldn't prevent it from happening, and I don't know a DM that would prevent it. That said, it might not be much of a benefit considering the non-proficiency penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    drunken master also does something like that iunno.
    Drunken Master doesn't give you proficiency and doesn't make the improvised weapon capable of being a masterwork weapon. Without proficiency you take a -4 penalty to attack rolls. Brawler removes that penalty and lets you chose "improvised weapon" as the beneficiary of weapon specific feats.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Technicality says you can. If you use it as a weapon it is a weapon. I personally wouldn't prevent it from happening, and I don't know a DM that would prevent it. That said, it might not be much of a benefit considering the non-proficiency penalty.
    the real purpose is to use animate weapon or personal weapon augmentation to get a humanoid animated object instead of a sword or a quarterstaff animated object. damage is gonna be worse cause improvised weapon damage is horrible but numbers isnt everything. it came up in a previous thread i made and everyone there all unanimously pummeled me saying improvised weapons are not weapons.

    so i thought id make a proper thread about it.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    While an improvised weapon may be used in combat almost like a real weapon, it ain't a real weapon. As such it isn't a valid target for things (spells / effects /enhancements..) that "target weapons".

    Note that special attacks like sunder and disarm can also be used against items (which includes improvised weapons). e.g.
    Quote Originally Posted by Disarm
    If the item you are attempting to disarm isn’t a melee weapon the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can’t attempt to disarm you in return if your attempt fails.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sundering a Carried or Worn Object
    You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC.
    And as already mentioned: Something can't be improvised and masterwork at the same time. Their definitions exclude each other. As such no weapon enhancement for improvised weapons.

    You can however use anything that buffs your attacks directly (targeting your attack/dmg stats not your weapon). E.g. "Bless"

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    "Masterwork" isn't a weapons-only thing. You can have masterwork armour, masterwork artisan's tools, and so on.

    So, you could be hitting someone with a masterwork shield, and it would be both improvised and masterwork, in that sense.
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    While an improvised weapon may be used in combat almost like a real weapon, it ain't a real weapon. As such it isn't a valid target for things (spells / effects /enhancements..) that "target weapons".

    Note that special attacks like sunder and disarm can also be used against items (which includes improvised weapons). e.g.



    And as already mentioned: Something can't be improvised and masterwork at the same time. Their definitions exclude each other. As such no weapon enhancement for improvised weapons.

    You can however use anything that buffs your attacks directly (targeting your attack/dmg stats not your weapon). E.g. "Bless"
    Except an improvised weapon is a real weapon. Weapon is not a defined term in 3.5. While it may not be crafted for such a reason, the fact of its use as one makes it a weapon by definition. Therefore it is a legal target as a weapon. For good or ill. The fact it has "weapon" in it's name should be a dead giveaway. If improvised weapons aren't weapons then natural weapons can't be weapons for the same reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    So, you could be hitting someone with a masterwork shield, and it would be both improvised and masterwork, in that sense.
    Not actually true. RAW, a shield is both a weapon and armor. Therefore a masterwork shield is at the same time masterwork armor and weapon. It cannot be an improvised weapon.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Except an improvised weapon is a real weapon. Weapon is not a defined term in 3.5. While it may not be crafted for such a reason, the fact of its use as one makes it a weapon by definition. Therefore it is a legal target as a weapon. For good or ill. The fact it has "weapon" in it's name should be a dead giveaway. If improvised weapons aren't weapons then natural weapons can't be weapons for the same reason.
    Weapons are defined in 3.5.

    And improvised weapons reads:
    Quote Originally Posted by Improvised Weapons
    Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, ...
    It's clear that improvised weapons are not weapons and sole can be used similar to weapons in combat. Just because you use something like a weapon doesn't turn it into a weapon in 3.5 terms. And the permission the rule gives is a specific exception that is sole limited to the use of improvised weapons as weapons in combat and ain't a general rule what is and what is not a weapon. As such, improvised weapons are not a legal target for effects that target "weapons".

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post

    Not actually true. RAW, a shield is both a weapon and armor. Therefore a masterwork shield is at the same time masterwork armor and weapon.
    It doesn't count as a masterwork weapon for "weapon enhancement purposes"

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment...asterworkArmor

    Shield Bash Attacks
    You can bash an opponent with a light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.



    The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment...terworkWeapons

    Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.


    An artisan's tool is a better example of "masterwork" combined with "improvised weapon", true. Still, in an emergency I could see somebody using a chain shirt as an improvised bludgeoning weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    improvised weapons are not a legal target for effects that target "weapons".
    That might be RAI in your opinion, but it it RAW, that, for example, it is impossible to cast Magic Weapon on an improvised weapon?

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post

    The masterwork quality of a suit of armor or shield never provides a bonus on attack or damage rolls, even if the armor or shield is used as a weapon.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment...terworkWeapons

    Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can’t create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.
    Specific trumps General:
    Quote Originally Posted by Armor Spikes
    An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes’ effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shield Bash Attack
    An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiked Shield
    An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
    While armor and shields can't be masterwork weapons, they still can be enhanced as magic weapons. Note that these are specific rules and may not be extrapolated to other things like e.g. Improvised Weapons. (It doesn't become a general rule!)




    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence
    An artisan's tool is a better example of "masterwork" combined with "improvised weapon", true. Still, in an emergency I could see somebody using a chain shirt as an improvised bludgeoning weapon.



    That might be RAI in your opinion, but it it RAW, that, for example, it is impossible to cast Magic Weapon on an improvised weapon?

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm
    See above. The rules for improvised rules are clear that they are not weapons: "...not crafted to be weapons.. "
    As such, they can't be targeted as weapons.

    Compare it with monk's unarmed strike ability:
    Regular (non-monk) unarmed strike ain't a weapon. But it behaves like a light weapon for certain things (twf, disarm/sunder...).
    The monk's unarmed strike has the specific exception to be affected by spells and effects that target manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
    Further, unarmed strikes aren't enhanced (crafting) the same way as a normal magical weapon. You enhance unarmed strikes via other items that can specifically target your unarmed strikes.(e.g. Necklace of Natural Attacks)
    As such, you bypass the masterwork requirement for normally enhancing a weapon magically.

    Improvised Weapons, as said, disqualify themselves as weapons in general and I don't know any way to enhance em in any other way (like with unarmed strikes).

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    "Not crafted to be weapons" explains why they always have a nonproficiency penalty (unless you're a Brawler).

    But they have everything else. They can be light, one handed, or two handed. They have a critical threat range, and do double damage on a Critical hit. They can have a range increment.

    It's reasonable, IMO, to interpret their inclusion under "Weapons" as meaning that they are a specific subset of weapon.


    Take the disarm action, for example. If you try to disarm someone of their "improvised melee weapon" and fail - do they get to disarm you, or not, because an improvised weapon isn't a real weapon? if you're the one using the improvised weapon to do the disarming, does their weapon end up on the ground, or not, because "you're not doing so with a weapon"?

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/sp...cks.htm#disarm

    Disarm
    As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand.

    If you’re attempting to disarm a melee weapon, follow the steps outlined here. If the item you are attempting to disarm isn’t a melee weapon the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can’t attempt to disarm you in return if your attempt fails.

    Step 1
    Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to disarm. (If you have the Improved Disarm feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a disarm attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your disarm attempt fails.

    Step 2
    Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a -4 penalty on the roll.

    Step 3
    Consequences. If you beat the defender, the defender is disarmed. If you attempted the disarm action unarmed, you now have the weapon. If you were armed, the defender’s weapon is on the ground in the defender’s square.

    If you fail on the disarm attempt, the defender may immediately react and attempt to disarm you with the same sort of opposed melee attack roll. His attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from you. If he fails his disarm attempt, you do not subsequently get a free disarm attempt against him.
    "Improvised weapons don't count as weapons" opens up a real can of worms.
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It's reasonable, IMO, to interpret their inclusion under "Weapons" as meaning that they are a specific subset of weapon.
    Well.. imho Improvised Weapons are already kinda a "specific subset of weapons".
    It's just that this subset explains how non-weapon objects can be misused in combat.
    Just because you can misuse something as a weapon, doesn't turn it into a real weapon.

    To give you a real life example:
    In many countries when you are in your last years of school, you have a few weeks of practical training in a local company to have an impression how working as an adult is.
    While you work in the company for a few weeks like any other worker, you aren't an official worker there. You are just a school kid on his practical training. Not more, not less.

    The same can be said here with the "Improvised Weapon rules". This rule allows you to use non-weapons in combat. Not more, not less.

    I hope I could clear up your thought. If you still have doubts, feel free to ask more questions^^

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Well.. imho Improvised Weapons are already kinda a "specific subset of weapons".
    It's just that this subset explains how non-weapon objects can be misused in combat.
    Just because you can misuse something as a weapon, doesn't turn it into a real weapon.
    The word "misused" is not present in the rules description.

    And, as I mentioned, there's lots of cases where it being treated as a weapon will be relevant - such as the aforementioned disarming scenario.
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The word "misused" is not present in the rules description.

    And, as I mentioned, there's lots of cases where it being treated as a weapon will be relevant - such as the aforementioned disarming scenario.
    I used "misused" here due to the penalty they receive and the fact that they aren't weapons. Sorry if it was confusing.

    And regarding disarm/sunder..:
    In these situations your improvised weapon is what it really is: "a non-weapon item/object" and not a weapon and thus receives the entire non-weapon treatment in these chases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disarm
    If the item you are attempting to disarm isn’t a melee weapon the defender may still oppose you with an attack roll, but takes a penalty and can’t attempt to disarm you in return if your attempt fails.
    The penalty the text is talking about is the standard -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    And regarding disarm/sunder..:
    In these situations your improvised weapon is what it really is: "a non-weapon item/object" and not a weapon and thus receives the entire non-weapon treatment in these chases.
    Sunder doesn't have a "using a nonweapon to make a sunder attempt" option.

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/sp...cks.htm#sunder

    Sunder
    You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)

    Step 1
    Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target whose weapon or shield you are trying to sunder. (If you have the Improved Sunder feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making the attempt.)

    Step 2
    Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.

    Step 3
    Consequences. If you beat the defender, roll damage and deal it to the weapon or shield. See Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points to determine how much damage you must deal to destroy the weapon or shield.

    If you fail the sunder attempt, you don’t deal any damage.

    So you're arguing that a giant holding a massive pole (say, a lamp post) and using it as an "improvised bludgeoning weapon" can't make sunder attempts with it, no matter how solid the pole is?
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Sunder doesn't have a "using a nonweapon to make a sunder attempt" option.




    So you're arguing that a giant holding a massive pole (say, a lamp post) and using it as an "improvised bludgeoning weapon" can't make sunder attempts with it, no matter how solid the pole is?
    No that is not what I tried to say.

    You can make disarm/sunder attempts with an improvised weapon. The improvised Weapon rules give you the permission to use em in combat. But that still doesn't turn em into weapons. But that is not what I was referring to.

    I was talking about the situation, when you try to disarm/sunder an improvised weapon. (the opposite).

    Sorry if it was misleading.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post

    You can make disarm/sunder attempts with an improvised weapon. The improvised Weapon rules give you the permission to use em in combat. But that still doesn't turn em into weapons.
    If it RAW counts as a weapon for the purpose of answering the question "can it be used to make Sunder attempts at all", why can't it count as a weapon for other purposes as well?

    Think of all the feats that have "weapon" or "melee weapon" or "ranged weapon" in their language - do they all work with improvised weapons of the appropriate type?

    Can Improved Precise Strike:

    "In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen."

    or Rapid Shot

    "You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat."


    be used with a few thrown rocks?

    How about Deflect Arrows used to Deflect Rocks?

    "You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed."

    Or Two Weapon Defence

    "When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

    When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2."


    with a pair of bowling pins used in Skittles?

    And so forth.

    If improvised weapons are weapons for most purposes - why shouldn't it be all purposes?

    Why shouldn't Truevenom Weapon or Prevenom Weapon, work on the metal ruler that the psychic warrior picked up and is using as an improvised slashing weapon, for example?

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/p...enomWeapon.htm

    Or Holy Sword, for a paladin?

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    I used "misused" here due to the penalty they receive and the fact that they aren't weapons. Sorry if it was confusing.

    And regarding disarm/sunder..:
    In these situations your improvised weapon is what it really is: "a non-weapon item/object" and not a weapon and thus receives the entire non-weapon treatment in these chases.


    The penalty the text is talking about is the standard -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
    The penalty is the nonproficiency penalty...:

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB, pg 113
    Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.
    This way you don't get a -8 penalty. And should be proof enough as you can only be nonproficient with weapons and armor.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    If it RAW counts as a weapon for the purpose of answering the question "can it be used to make Sunder attempts at all", why can't it count as a weapon for other purposes as well?

    have a look at the rules and notice that nowhere the rules tell you that improvised weapons "count as weapons". It's the opposite. They talk about how you can use anything "not crafted as weapon" in combat.
    We have rules how non-weapons behave in combat. But we don't have any rules telling you that they count as weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Improvised Weapons

    Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
    And just because it can have a size category like light weapon, doesn't turn it into a weapon either by the rules. It doesn't work like that, sry.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Do you agree or disagree with the notion that Rapid Shot can be used with improvised throwing weapons like rocks?

    And how about Power Attack for improvised melee weapons?


    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack

    If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    The penalty is the nonproficiency penalty...:



    This way you don't get a -8 penalty. And should be proof enough as you can only be nonproficient with weapons and armor.
    Yeah, your right. Sorry for not being precise here..^^
    But still ain't a proof here. Improvised Weapons is a specific rule (for non-weapons) which makes explicit use (again specific) of the nonproficiency rules.


    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Do you agree or disagree with the notion that Rapid Shot can be used with improvised throwing weapons like rocks?
    Disagree. By RAW the rocks are just mere improvised throwing weapons and not ranged weapons.

    in 3.5 by RAW we have a finite number of weapons published in the books. In the PHB/SRD you can find the most common weapons in 3.5. Weapon are defined. Each weapon is presented in the "Weapon:" lists and has a description.

    The description of improved weapons however still denies that they are weapons.

    edit:
    Power Attack targets your melee attack rolls and not your weapon. It denies anything that counts as a light weapon (except unarmed strikes and natural weapons). Thus unless you have an improvised weapon that would count as "light weapon" sized, you can use Power Attack with it.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post

    The description of improved weapons however still denies that they are weapons.
    It says they weren't crafted to be weapons - not that they aren't weapons, when being used as them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    By RAW the rocks are just mere improvised throwing weapons and not ranged weapons.

    I can understand Rapid Shot not working because the rule is that it takes a standard action to throw one light or one-handed improvised weapon.

    But I can't see why Deflect Arrows would not work on a small thrown object.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Power Attack targets your melee attack rolls and not your weapon.
    But it functions differently depending on what weapon is being used. An improvised weapon that is "a two-handed weapon" will do extra damage equal to 2x Power Attack number.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-08 at 01:41 PM.
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It says they weren't crafted to be weapons - not that they aren't weapons, when being used as them.

    I can understand Rapid Shot not working because the rule is that it takes a standard action to throw one light or one-handed improvised weapon.

    But I can't see why Deflect Arrows would not work on a small thrown object.


    But it functions differently depending on what weapon is being used. An improvised weapon that is "a two-handed weapon" will do extra damage equal to 2x Power Attack number.
    "Improvised Weapons" is a sub-rule of the weapon rules. And it talks about how non-weapon objects can be used in combat. Nowhere is even the slightest suggestion that they count as weapons. The size rules for improvised weapons is needed for the use in combat and therefore mentioned. The size rules don't give you the permission to count improvised weapons as weapons.

    edit: Deflect Arrows
    Yeah, you may not deflect stones unless they are fired from a sling. Maybe stones who are use as improvised weapons are harder to predict because they aren't balanced weapons? Who knows why they didn't go for Ranged Attacks overall here (I guess because of ranged spell attack..^^).

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    If you're going to use "improvised weapons" in combination with feats or spells, you need to treat "weapon" in a feat or spell's description consistently.

    If an improvised weapon can be "a two-handed weapon" for Power Attack, or "a light, off-hand weapon" for Two-Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Defence,

    why is it not "a weapon" for the purposes of, say, the Keen Edge spell?

    You can't have it both ways - counting as a weapon for some things and not for others, when there's no clear demarcation. Pick one.
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    i think you misunderstood. i was asking if i could turn a improvised weapon like a chair and turn it into a mwk improvised weapon using the normal mwk weapon crafting rules, and then use the magic weapon enchanting rules to turn it into a +1 flaming improvised weapon.



    so your saying i can cast magic weapon on a chair? cause i want to do something like that.



    drunken master also does something like that iunno.
    Making a chair flaming is easy. Just set it on fire.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    If you're going to use "improvised weapons" in combination with feats or spells, you need to treat "weapon" in a feat or spell's description consistently.

    If an improvised weapon can be "a two-handed weapon" for Power Attack, or "a light, off-hand weapon" for Two-Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Defence,

    why is it not "a weapon" for the purposes of, say, the Keen Edge spell?

    You can't have it both ways - counting as a weapon for some things and not for others, when there's no clear demarcation. Pick one.
    Just having a weapon size category for combat uses doesn't turn it into a weapon.
    Power Attack affects your melee attacks overall and doesn't care if you use a weapon or not for the attack (compare with Rapid Shot which does call out the use of Ranged Weapons). It only cares for the "effective size category as weapon" of the object you use.
    The rule lets Improvised Weapons count as having those size categories, since these are required to use em in combat (e.g for PA, TWF, Special Attacks..). But this doesn't let em count overall as weapons.

    I'm repeating myself here. The rules never tell you that they count as weapons. The permission to count as having weapon size categories for combat doesn't change that.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    It's in the name - Improvised weapon.

    Take the Psionic Weapon feat:

    Psionic Weapon [Psionic]
    You can charge your melee weapon with additional damage potential.

    Prerequisite
    Str 13.

    Benefit
    To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus.

    Your attack with a melee weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus.
    Would you ban players from using it with improvised weapons?
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 01:03 AM.
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It's in the name - Improvised weapon.
    It's in the definition of Improvised Weapons:
    objects not crafted to be weapons
    They are defined as "not crafted to be weapons". "not ...to be" should be clear here.

    edit: Psionic Charge
    By RAW prionic charge only works with melee weapons, not with melee attacks overall. As such improvised weapons get a NO here.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    It simply explains why they're not as good as regular weapons. It doesn't mean that they're


    "not weapons at all for any Weapon Targeting purposes."
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    By RAW prionic charge only works with melee weapons, not with melee attacks overall. As such improvised weapons get a NO here.
    I believe this this is an unnecessarily restrictive reading of "RAW" - and a good example of how different people can interpret "what is RAW" differently.

    You agreed that Sunder works with improvised weapons - despite the fact that it specifically says "melee attack with a weapon" not "melee attack" on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post

    You can make disarm/sunder attempts with an improvised weapon.
    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/sp...cks.htm#sunder

    Sunder
    You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 01:13 AM.
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