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2021-02-09, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
You can assume that this wasn't the intention of the designers (RAI=rules as intended). But RAW is clear and precise here. Nothing conflicts from a pure RAW reading. Just because RAW doesn't reflect common sense or how you want the rules to work doesn't change RAW in any way.
You can make claims for RAI and I would totally support this in an actual game anyone plays. But it ain't RAW. Just remind yourself of "healing by drowning" to have a vague concept of what RAW in 3.5 means. Nobody plays RAW (there are only people pretending that they play RAW, but they never do it to 100%. otherwise everybody would play pun pun or at least would have always a bucket of water for emergence heals when someone is "dying" (status -1 till -9).
edit: Sunder
The Improvised Weapon rules allow you to threat certain types of em as slashing or bludgeoning weapon. This is the same situation as with weapon size categories. Just because IW have damage types doesn't turn em into "weapons".
And if you sunder an Improvised Weapon, you threat em as non-weapon objects that are held (see rules for attacking held objects).Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-09 at 01:28 AM.
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2021-02-09, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 01:29 AM.
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2021-02-09, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
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2021-02-09, 01:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Sorry, but we disagree on the interpretation of certain phrases.
All "not crafted to be a weapon" means, for rules purposes, is "guarantees a nonproficiency penalty when used as a weapon, wielded as a weapon, etc.", in a D&D context.
"Improvised weapon" is a subset of the larger category, "weapon".
And "not crafted to be a weapon" identifies that subset.
The Glossary definition of "melee weapon" in the PHB might say "handheld weapon designed for close combat" but it oversimplifies. Armour Spikes prove that a melee weapon does not have to be handheld, for example.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 09:27 AM.
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2021-02-09, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Armor Spikes:
The spikes count as a martial weapon.
The Improvised Weapon paragraph does the opposite. It talks about "objects not crafted to be weapons".
It gives you rules how things not intended to be weapons behave in combat.
Your interpretation implies that everything is a weapon. Sure, even in real life we can weaponize everything. But do we call em weapons and apply rules/laws for weapons on em? Only if they really are weapons. A forest worker doesn't need a weapon license for a chainsaw just because you can use it as weapon. That is what you are trying to tell us here. Just because something can be weaponized, you try to forcefully apply all weapon rules to it without any rule text that backs that up.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-09, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
There is phrasing in the Rules Compendium which I think is informative.
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to actual weapons to find a reasonable matchNeed a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2021-02-09, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
I can understand "Melee Weapon" (as opposed to just "Weapon") being limited.
The Weapon Focus feat just says "Weapon" and can be used with all Weapons, even Natural Weapons. Many monsters have Weapon Focus (Bite) or Weapon Focus (claw).
Things like that, which just say "Weapon" apply to everything - Natural, Improvised, and "Designed to be used as a Weapon"
Things that say "Melee Weapon" never work on a Natural Weapon by contrast - so a case could be made that the "designed" bit is important.
Deflect Arrows has a specific "Does not work on spells" exception.
Given that "Weaponlike spells" do qualify as "ranged weapons" for the purposes of feats like Point Blank Shot (see Complete Arcane), I would say that "ranged weapon" does not need to have been specifically designed that way, and that an "improvised ranged weapon" is still a ranged weapon. Same with "natural ranged weapon" - any creature that fires quills or needles.
If you can block an arrow, you can block a quill.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 11:26 AM.
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2021-02-09, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Here's my take. The definition of improvised weapon states an item not crafted to be a weapon. This precludes it from being enchanted as a weapon as that is crafting it for use as a weapon.
However, when an improvised weapon is held as a weapon, it does, in fact, count as a weapon and can be sundered or affected by other effects that targets weapons as it is being used as a weapon despite it not being crafted as such.
A broken bottle can be smacked with a sword. A chair leg wielded as a club can be struck and shattered. A billboard can be knocked from someone's hand.
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2021-02-09, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
And conversely, it can be used to do the sundering, or the disarming:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/sp...cks.htm#disarm
Disarm
As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand.
A tiger could plausibly "attempt to disarm their opponent" - slapping the weapon out of their hand with a swipe of the paw - so why not a guy with a chair leg?
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/sp...cks.htm#sunder
Sunder
You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here.
Similarly a swipe from an elephant's trunk or a tiger's claws - or an improvised slashing/bludgeoning weapon, should be able to break an enemy's weapon or shield.
Makes sense in the context of creating a "+1 chair leg".
But lots of spells and powers have "Melee Weapon" or even, just "Weapon" as the target, from Magic Weapon to Prevenom Weapon to Holy Sword, to Keen Edge, and so forth.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 12:11 PM.
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2021-02-09, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
since rules compendium came up
Originally Posted by rules compendium
using english baseball bats are weapons but in d&d they are improvised weapons.
broken bottles are weapons but in d&d they are improvised weapons.
there are manufactured and natural weapons
there are melee, reach, and ranged weapons
there are lots of types of weapons. so when something says "weapon" instead of manufactured weapons, it encompasses all weapons.
case in point weapon focus doesnt say manufactured weapons, so you see monsters with weapon focus claw or bite.
case in point, starmantle doesnt restrict itself to manufactured weapons so natural weapons get damage halved too.Last edited by newguydude1; 2021-02-09 at 12:18 PM.
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2021-02-09, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
It's right there in the PHB under the title "Weapon Categories."
Weapon focus could be used with improvised weapons. The problem is that it requires proficiency. Which is why I mentioned the brawler class as it basically gives you proficiency. And if it doesn't because the DM is stuck up, dragon also has an improvised weapon proficiency feat.
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2021-02-09, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2021-02-09, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
In D20 Modern, a club is the sort of thing used by police - nightsticks and so on. A hockey stick, by contrast, comes under Improvised weapons.
Might depend just how well-balanced the club is, for whether "regular club" stats are appropriate.
Remember that a regular club is designed to be thrown - it has a listed range increment.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 01:24 PM.
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2021-02-09, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
A regular club isn't particularly "designed" at all, as indicated by the PHB description and image. A baseball bat is considerably more aerodynamic and controllable than your average hunk of wood, and for throwing purposes I would expect more consistent than the traditional T-shaped nightstick.
I don't think a hockey stick is an appropriate point of comparison - comparing regulation equipment, hockey sticks have half the mass, not distributed for hitting, while baseball bats are for exactly that purpose.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2021-02-09, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The D20 Modern club is wood though- more of a "policeman's truncheon". Aren't the T-shaped nightsticks metal?
Baseball bats are Large (in D20 Call of Cthulhu) - basically Greatclubs, not clubs, but without any of the spikes or metal bands D&D Greatclubs are normally shown with.
Whether it's a baseball bat, a cricket bat, a hockey stick, or a golf club, the point is that it's not designed for hitting heads, but balls.
That's how "things with range increments" work.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment...#thrownWeapons
It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll.
Anything that does have a range increment, is designed to be thrown.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 01:58 PM.
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2021-02-09, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Wouldn't know, not in law enforcement. I assume they would use various metals or other modern materials preferentially to wood, though I have certainly seen those batons in wood before, though not necessarily in use by law enforcement.
Baseball bats are Large (in D20 Call of Cthulhu) - basically Greatclubs, not clubs, but without any of the spikes or metal bands D&D great clubs are normally shown with.
In any event, this has become work rather than enjoyment, so I will bow out.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2021-02-09, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 02:03 PM.
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2021-02-09, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
I never disputed that. All I did was quote the Rules Compendium as regards improvised weapons.
As far as I am concerned, from a DM standpoint, this is one of those things where the same word is being used to mean multiple things that often but not always travel together, hence the role of the DM in adjudicating when it gets silly. Animate weapon should actually have a target of "manufactured weapon which can be wielded by the caster without nonproficiency or size penalties", but does not, which could technically result in your hands shooting out from your hands, or a Colossal spiked chain that you drag around suddenly shrinking. The editors rode pretty hard on the fact that the game comes with an adjudicator to patch RAW holes.
Anyway, that's my position. Tiger sundering with claws, absolutely. +1 flaming bust of Mozart, no.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2021-02-09, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-09, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 02:45 PM.
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2021-02-09, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2021-02-09, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
I'm interested in hearing if you think "RAW" is sometimes ambiguous and "a matter of opinion" rather than "there is only one RAW answer".
And if you agree that "ranged weapon" covers more than just manufactured ones, or not - just as "melee weapon" might cover more than just manufactured weapons, or not.
Why might I care? Feedback. I'd like to know if several people on the forums with a reputation for reasonableness, think I'm just "blinding myself to How Things Work" or not.
The title of this thread is "can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?"
I'm looking at it from the perspective
"can you do things with improvised weapons that can only be done with weapons"
And extending the question to natural weapons as well, at least in some cases.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-09 at 03:39 PM.
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2021-02-09, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Detect Weaponry can detect improvised weapons, but "only if the wielder actively intends to use such an item as a weapon".
Still, that spell is a cone-shaped emanation, so not really something that directly affects weapons.My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2021-02-09, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
"Something is only a weapon if the wielder actively intends to use it as a weapon" is pretty logical.
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2021-02-09, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
While technically not an improvised weapon, I do love War Mug of the Ogre Magi (Dragon Compendium p.143): a magic mug that essentially acts as a +2 club, and deals nonlethal damage. Also, drinks never spill from the mug!
100% will be dropping this as loot at some point in my games.My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2021-02-10, 02:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
I never made the claim that "weapons" only covers manufactured weapons. What I do is, showing you that all other categories make positive claims about being an actual weapon.
The Weapon Descriptions section does this for weapons found on the "weapons"-list: (includes unarmed strike and manufactured weapons)
Weapons found on Table: Weapons ...
Natural weapons are weapons that are ...
If we look at Improvised Weapons, the rules only makes a negative claim about them counting as weapons:
Originally Posted by Improvised Weapons
As such, you can make Sunder attempts with an Improvised weapon too, since it only requires "a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon". And the damage types (in our chase bludgeoning weapon) is part of the "damage potential" Improvised Weapons get.
But they are still not "weapons". As such, when you try to Sunder an Improvised Weapon, it counts as "an object held":
Originally Posted by Sunder
"Specific trumps General, but doesn't become General", even in real life. Since real life rules & laws also follow a rule hierarchy and keywords like 3.5 does, nothing from my point of view changed here.
There are some situations in 3.5 where the rules don't provide enough information or indicators that only one possible interpretation remains. But imho, I've shown enough evidence that "Improvised Weapons", while being a weapon category, are still not "weapons", since their definition in 3.5 is the exceptional rule how to use non-weapons in combat. A clear denial of the "weapon" status. This category never claims them to be "weapons" as e.g. Natural Weapons does.
And if you agree that "ranged weapon" covers more than just manufactured ones, or not - just as "melee weapon" might cover more than just manufactured weapons, or not.
Ranged Weapons != manufactured weapon
As already shows, Natural Weapons make positive claims that they are "weapons". And there are a few natural ranged weapons (e.g. Spitting abilities or Spikes that can be used as ranged weapons by some monster).
Improvised Weapons can be ranged weapons to. Remember that the Improvised Weapons provides rules for "improvised thrown weapon" (and thrown weapons count as Ranged Weapons).
Why might I care? Feedback. I'd like to know if several people on the forums with a reputation for reasonableness, think I'm just "blinding myself to How Things Work" or not.
3.5 is a mess of rules scattered over different books and chapters. It is a pain for anyone to get used to em imho. The biggest problem is that all rules assume the Primary Source Rule as given to prevent dysfuntions. And most of us play for years without even knowing the existence of this important part of the rule puzzle. This leads to many wrong assumptions and bad habits about how the rules work by RAW.
I'm not claiming to be perfect here, just that I somehow got used to the Primary Source rules after years of struggle. So, welcome to the club of people who care about rules ;)
The title of this thread is "can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?"
I'm looking at it from the perspective
"can you do things with improvised weapons that can only be done with weapons"
And extending the question to natural weapons as well, at least in some cases.
_______________
RAW: As always.. Nobody plays 100% RAW and nobody (should) suggest to do so. We just need RAW as a starting point for our forum debates, build showcases and competitions.
What rule interpretation suits your table best is something you have decide for yourselves (with the DM and other players at your table).
But an interest in RAW is always a good thing to have imho. Because getting used to rule hierarchy will help you to understand rules and laws (!) in real life. It helps to see possible exploits and weaknesses in rules/laws and thus helps with better decision making (personal life, business or politics).Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-10 at 06:16 AM.
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2021-02-10, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Then why did you argue that improvised thrown weapons don't count as ranged weapons?
The PHB glossary entry for "ranged weapons" only covers ones that are "designed for ranged attacks".
Yet if you're prepared to agree now that natural ranged weapons and improvised ranged weapons are still "ranged weapons" for the purposes of feats like Deflect Arrows, or spells that say "Ranged Weapon", then why can't the same logic apply to melee?
If you're going to say an "improvised ranged weapon is still a ranged weapon for all feat and magic purposes" then why not
"an improvised melee weapon is still a melee weapon for all feat and magic purposes".Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-10 at 09:33 AM.
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2021-02-10, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
When I said, "Improvised Weapons can be ranged weapons ", I meant for the purpose of using them in combat under the Improvised Weapon rules. The rules give this permission to "any creature that uses one" (Improvised Weapon)!
They still don't count as ranged weapon for other purposes. Sorry for the misleading wording.
e.g.:
You throw a rock at me as improvised weapon with the permission to throw it (like a ranged weapon).
When I try to deflect the attack with Deflect Arrow, I can't. Because I don't use em and thus can't profit from the Improvised Weapon rules. The permissions as what it counts are very limited by the rule text of Improvised Weapons.
It's a ranged attack, yeah.. but still not a ranged weapon for all purposes that try to "target" it.
This is what I mean with that 3.5 is a pile of messy rules. It is sometimes hard to make a statement without causing irritation or conflicts because you used the wrong words (a 3.5 keyword)..
I just needed several minutes to gasp the situation regarding your last question and to get back into the thought loops of my last post. It's a headache.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-10 at 11:31 AM.
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2021-02-10, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Sometimes a feat description switches from "ranged weapon" to "ranged attack", or specifically nominate "thrown weapons".
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows
Deflect Arrows [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit
You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed.
Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#reflectArrows
Reflect Arrows [Epic]
Prerequisites
Dex 25, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit
When you deflect an arrow or other ranged attack, the attack is reflected back upon the attacker at your base ranged attack bonus.
IMO the whole idea that "Ranged Weapon" is a keyword, defined in the glossary, and anything that does not match the glossary definition exactly, is excluded, is problematic. For one thing, it would exclude all "ranged natural weapons" because they're not designed, strictly speaking - making it impossible to use Deflect Arrows on a manticore's spikes.
"Improvised weapons are weapons, because the word "weapon" is in the very description" IMO works better. "Weapon" is the important part, and "improvised" is a modifier to "weapon" - enforcing the nonproficiency penalty - just as "natural" is a modifier to "weapon".
I don't see anything about, say, a thrown rock or other clunky thing, that would make it impossible to deflect, or even catch (with Snatch Arrows), when other things the same mass are easy to deflect, even if they fly much faster.
Why would one be able to snatch a speeding arrow out of the air, but not a much slower-moving thrown rock?Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-10 at 12:32 PM.
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