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2021-02-13, 03:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Dunno, this feels like.. the 10+th time I repeat the Primary Source rule here. Are you still dismissing it?^^
1. "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Manacles)" is not part of the Primary Source
2. As such, it can only makes specific exceptions to the general rules. Which it does do. It only gives you the permission for its specific niche, not for everything else. It's "Specific trumps General" and not"Specific becomes General". You are doing the same mistakes over and over again by ignoring the Primary Source rule.
I don't wanna sound rude, so no ill intentions here: But pls try to get used to the Primary Source rule.
I feel a bit dizzy here from repeating it over and over again. I'm not a parrot ;)Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-13, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
A case could be made that you are reading too much into "not crafted to be weapons".
If natural weapons are weapons, despite not being crafted to be weapons, maybe, even by RAW, improvised weapons are weapons despite not being crafted to be weapons.
"Natural" is a prefix to "weapon" that opens up certain rules. "Improvised" is a prefix to "weapon" that opens up certain other rules.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-13 at 04:22 AM.
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2021-02-13, 04:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Primary source rules says improvised weapons are a category of weapons whether they are crafted to be one or not.
Even if we stick to just English here, something not crafted to be a weapon can still be a weapon. Farming equipment have been used as weapons throughout history. Ninjas went out of their way to create fighting styles with farming equipment.
Gruftzwerg is just desperate at this point.Last edited by magicalmagicman; 2021-02-13 at 04:33 AM.
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2021-02-13, 04:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Works for me.
It's fairly safe to say that if you are caught attacking someone with a piece of farming equipment, you will be charged with "carrying a deadly weapon" and "assault with a deadly weapon" if the equipment is sufficiently dangerous.
And for less deadly ones, there is "offensive weapon" - you can be charged with "carrying an offensive weapon" in these sorts of cases.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-13 at 04:52 AM.
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2021-02-13, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
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2021-02-13, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The argument is that it's only an exotic weapon in the hands of that particular PRC,
and that under normal circumstances, you can't have the feat "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Manacles)" or, if you're attempting to emulate Riddick, the feat "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Teacup)".Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-13 at 04:44 AM.
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2021-02-13, 04:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
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2021-02-13, 04:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Good point. This does indicative that the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat can be taken for any improvised thrown weapon that has been fashioned by an Exotic Weapon Master.
Can it be taken for improvised melee weapons though, or thrown ones bigger or smaller than the ones described? That's trickier.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2021-02-13, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Imho you are ignoring the clear statement "not crafted to be weapons". "not be" is a clear denial of that status. The text refers to "objects" used in "combat". It doesn't say "used as weapons".
And as already said regarding Natural Weapons. NW make a clear positive statement that they are "weapons".
To "be" or "not to be", that is here the question ;)
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat.Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature.
1. The Primary Source for Improvised Weapons is the "weapons" topic in the PHB.
2. The Improvised Weapon rules are part of this primary source and are more specific for its own topic. As such they may trump any general statements made before in the very same Primary Source. "Specific Trumps General"
3. As such, the definition in the "Improvised Weapons" is the rule that counts here the most. And as said several times, these specific primary source rules say "not crafted to be weapon".
As said, the Primary Source rule works the same with real life rules and laws:
1. You have a general definition of weapons. These have to face all the special treatment that the law enforces on "real weapons" (carry, usage..). (general)
2. Then you have specific situation where the rules/laws threat objects as weapons. But that doesn't start to enforce all weapon rules/law on them. A farmer may still carry his "potentially deadly weapon" farming tools around while working. While a store owner of a store the farmer enters, can make their houserules to not allow "potentially weapons" to be carried into the store (specific).
Primary Source rule works in two ways. Denying other sources to make new global rules, but allows on the same moment that you may create more specific rules. "Improvised Weapons" in the weapons section of the PHB did this. It gives specific rules for em. While on the same time it is the general rule for "Improvised Weapons", so any other source that tries to make any changes can only do that for their specific niche (like Improvised Weapon does as sub-topic of weapons).
.. in the Primary Source rule we believe. Amen! ;)Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-13, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
An improvised weapon is a normal object that is being used as a weapon.
Once you're actually using it as a weapon, it is a weapon, legally. So why not mechanically?
As pointed out earlier, an ordinary object carried with intent to use it as a weapon, will ping the Detect Weaponry spell.
Specific trumps general - and the specific situation - intent to use the object as a weapon, trumps the general situation for objects.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-13 at 06:48 AM.
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2021-02-13, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Where does the rules tell you that you use em as weapons? Would you call out that statement in the Improvised Weapon rules in the Primary Source? As far as I can see that rule only talks about improvised weapons being used in combat.
see use in combat
using an object in combat != using a weapon in combat
Edit:As pointed out earlier, an ordinary object carried with intent to use it as a weapon, will ping the Detect Weaponry spell.
Primary Source Rule, Amen...Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-13 at 06:52 AM.
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2021-02-13, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
It's how nonproficiency, in combat, works:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment...rovisedWeapons
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.
Click on the nonproficient link, and it takes you to "Weapon, armor and shield proficiency".
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/co...eldProficiency
Weapon, Armor, and Shield Proficiency
A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-13 at 06:54 AM.
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2021-02-13, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
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2021-02-13, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
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2021-02-13, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
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2021-02-13, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
IMO that's not how the Primary Source rule applies to this situation.
The general rule for objects used in combat, is that they're weapons, and the specific rule for improvised weapons is that they get a -4 penalty because they're not designed to be used in combat, not because they're not weapons at all.
The specific situation "Improvised" applies the -4 nonproficiency penalty. It doesn't do anything else.
This is especially self-evident with ranged attack rolls and ranged weapons. The definition of "ranged attack roll" (on page 311 of the PHB) is "attack with a ranged weapon". If you're making an attack roll with an object, at a distance, it's a ranged weapon, no ifs, ands, or buts.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-13 at 07:59 AM.
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2021-02-13, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Would have been better if it were spelled out as: "Improvised weapons are a category of weapon that includes objects not designed to be used in combat?"
That's literally how the PHB lays it out in front of you. Would that have changed your perspective if WotC said it straight up like that?
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2021-02-13, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
No, you are trying to take a statement as a clear negative on Weapon status, when the statement makes no such claim. You are ignoring the "crafted" part of the sentence to make your point. However, being "crafted to be a weapon" is not actually a necessary condition to BE a weapon. Case in point, Natural Weapons (which by RAW are weapons) cannot be crafted (in most cases), and therefore are not "crafted to be a weapon".
Note:
Manufactured Weapons:
Are Mechanically Objects
Are Crafted to Be Weapons
Have Stats as Weapons
Natural Weapons:
Are not Mechanically Objects (they are part of the Creature, not a distinct Object)
Are NOT Crafted to be Weapons (due to not being crafted)
Have Stats as Weapons
Improvised Weapons
Are Mechanically Objects (like Manufactured Weapons)
Are NOT Crafted to be Weapons (by Definition) (like Natural Weapons)
Have Stats as Weapons (sometimes explicitly (such as Manacles, and Crowbars), other times via the guidelines set out in the Improvised Weapons section). (Like All Weapons)
The only real difference between Improvised Weapons and the commonalities between the two other categories of Weapons is a lack of an explicit means of gaining proficiency.ARRRRGH, I'm a pirate, ninjas are no match for me, Yargh!
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2021-02-15, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The most "specific" "general rule" is the definition of "Improvised Weapons" in the Primary Source "Weapons". The definition never did give us the permission to count improvised weapons as "weapons". The definition talks about objects. The sole part where weapon is mentioned is the "not crafted to be weapon"-part. And that is not how you make a positive statement about something counting as "weapons". We have sole permission for "using objects in combat", not more not less.
_________________________
If this statement would have been part of the definition of "Improvised Weapons" itself yeah. But sadly it is not part of it. The "Improvised Weapons" definition is the most specific general rule and as such trumps any regular general rule.
I'll try to give another 3.5 example where we have a similar situation: Special Abilities and Natural Abilities
1. The entire page is called Special Abilities
2. Natural Abilities is defined as:This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.
With Improvised Weapons, we have a similar situation. Despite "Improvised Weapons" being categorized as weapon category, the actual improvised weapons theirselves are ruled as "objects being used in combat".
_________________________
The difference is, that we have positive statements for being a weapon for:
1. unarmed strikes
2. manufactured weapons
3. natural weapons
The definition of Improvised Weapon itself lacks the positive statement as the other categories have. "Objects not crated to be weapon" is not a positive statement that they "are" or "count" as weapons. It's "objects ... used in combat" and not "objects... used as weapons".
_______________________
@ everybody
Where do you see a positive statement in the definition of Improvised Weapons? Does it say, they are or count as weapons?
Originally Posted by Improvised WeaponsExtended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-15, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
I looked into this a while ago and I kept referring back to this ruling from the Player's Handbook, on page 113, under the Improvised Weapons description:
Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.
The only answer I could arrive at is that you can't because it's not actually a weapon. So they can't be the enchanted nor the target of spells that only target weapons.Resident Mad Scientist...
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2021-02-15, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
you can. exotic weapon proficiency lets you select specific objects as weapons. i posted two quotes somewhere earlier in the thread.
one prc gives you exotic weapon proficiency manacles as a feat
another prc says your party members can take exotic weapon proficiency improvised throwing weapon to use the throwing weapons you craft.
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2021-02-16, 01:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
You are taking the lack of a positive statement as a negative, when the default (when no positive or negative is given) is to default to real-world logic. An improvised weapon is a weapon by real-world standards, improvised being a modifier upon the term weapon. Natural Weapons has a positive statement as part of its definition because the verbiage allows for it. Improvised weapons could not use the word weapon instead of object in its game definition, because the inclusion would have resulted in the inclusion of Natural Weapons (because Natural Weapons aren't crafted for combat).
There is also actually a positive statement that improvised weapons are at least sometimes actually weapons. From the SRD (and PHB pg. 114):
"An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2)."
and a melee weapon is defined as a "A handheld weapon designed for close combat." (PHB pg. 310).
Or because no class/feat grants that proficiency. The ability to become proficient in its use is never given as a necessary quality of being a weapon. If Exotic Weapon Proficiency no longer existed, Exotic Weapons wouldn't cease to be weapons.ARRRRGH, I'm a pirate, ninjas are no match for me, Yargh!
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2021-02-16, 02:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Specific beat General but doesn't become a general rule. Those are specific exception to the norm and don't set any new global rules. They only count for their own niche.
This shows that you are still ignoring the primary source rule..
Even by real word standards "improvised weapons" aren't treated as "weapons" in general. Only under "specific circumstances" they count as weapon in real life. In 3.5 it works the similar. You are allowed to use em in combat with the mentioned rules. Full Stop. Nothing mentions that they are weapons.
And the definition of "improvised Weapons" in the PHB "weapons" section is what counts here. And that very passage avoids a postive statement about "being or counting as a weapon" and sole talks about "objects". The sole thing that could be treated as indicator is the "not crafted as weapon" part which would deny it rather than confirming it.
3.5 is permission based and the very definition of the term didn't give you this permission in any kind. We have positive statements for all the other weapon categories.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-16 at 02:47 AM.
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2021-02-16, 04:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The arrow example isn't providing an exception to the general rule however, but outlining how to treat an arrow used as an improvised melee weapon (giving an explicit 'weight' category for its use). It shows an intent that improvised weapons are weapons, because it does not call out an exception, but rather sets up an equivalency (arrow as a melee weapon = one-handed improvised weapon).
It doesn't need an explicit positive statement to begin with because, by the actual definition of Manufactured Weapons, improvised weapons are a subset of Manufactured Weapons. The definition of Manufactured Weapons calls out "found items" such as rocks and logs as being considered manufactured weapons when wielded as weapons.
By the definition of improvised weapons (objects that were not crafted for combat), "found items" such as logs and rocks are improvised weapons since they are objects not crafted for combat. They are also explicitly manufactured weapons by the definition of manufactured weapons given by the glossary of the Monster Manual. That shows a clear intent that improvised weapons should be considered manufactured weapons.
It is very clear that the designers intended for Improvised Weapons to be considered weapons. There is also enough circumstantial evidence to show that they should be treated as such.ARRRRGH, I'm a pirate, ninjas are no match for me, Yargh!
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2021-02-16, 06:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Improvised Weapons are never a subset of manufactured weapons. It's a subset of "weapons". But Improvised weapons defines itself as object used in combat and not as weapons. As such it trumps all other general rules, since it is the most specific general rule. (see Special Abilities and Natural Abilities as mentioned above).
The arrow example is a specific example. As such, it can only create specific rules for its niche. It doesn't set new general/global rules (it never had the permission for that thanks to the Primary Source Rule). It gives you the specific exception to use arrows as melee weapons. Nowhere does it say that they count as melee weapon, nor that they are melee weapons. The text is not saying what you try to interpret into it.
Again you try to turn specific rules into general rules without any permission. You are constantly doing this and I assume your next argument will again ignore the Primary Source rule and I will once again refer you back to it...Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-16, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The MM says otherwise, by defining "manufactured weapons" so broadly as to include rocks and logs.
Given that almost every PC race is in the MM - it's not a case of "the PHB is general, the MM is specific" - rather, all three books, united, are the "primary source" for D&D - not "PHB is primary, MM and DMG are secondary compared to it"Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 07:49 AM.
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2021-02-16, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
You don't get the Primary Source Rule:
When you find a disagreement between two... rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
"Improvised Weapons" is defined in those general rules and as such the definition is more specific than any general "weapon" rule. But since it is still part of the general "weapon" rules in the PHB, it can't be changed on a general/global level by other sources. Other sources (than the weapon section in the PHB) can only make specific exceptions for their own niche (Specific trumps General). But it doesn't become a general rule. E.g. when a specific spell rule things different than the general rules, those rules only count for that specific spell and don't become a new general rule. As such, MM has no permission to make or change any general rules for improvised weapons. It could only make exceptions for it's niche, if the wording of the rule explicitly calls that out. (e.g. Invisibility changes what counts as an attack for itself. it doesn't become a general rule).
Primary Source Rule strikes again..^^Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-16, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
It does not. The Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat asks you to choose a type of exotic weapon to become proficient in. This specifically limits the feats functionality to weapons labeled as exotic by the rules. Improvised weapons are distinct and do not have this label.
Prestige classes which grant such proficiency are quite clearly an exception to this general rule. You are trying to treat an exception as new rules text to support your conclusion.Resident Mad Scientist...
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2021-02-16, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Given the many occasions where table makes more sense than text, it's quite clear that the "primary source rule" shouldn't be taken too seriously.
In any case, MM isn't changing a specific "Manufactured Weapons" rule in the PHB, because the PHB has no definition of "Manufactured Weapons". All the text in the "Weapon" entry does not use the word "Manufactured".
The inclusion of Improvised weapons within the "general weapon rules" indicates that the "general weapon rules" cover them - and therefore, that they are weapons.
If they weren't weapons, the Improvised Weapon rules would be somewhere else.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 11:00 AM.
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2021-02-16, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
And you left what is defined as Rules As Written and admitted that you talk about Rules As Intended (or How the Rules should work). If you want to make RAI assumptions, that is fine with me. If you want to make houserule suggestion, I have no problem either (I would maybe even support it at my own tables..). But stop calling your assumption RAW, when you ignore actual rules for the sake of whatever..
In any case, MM isn't changing a specific "Manufactured Weapons" rule in the PHB, because the PHB has no definition of "Manufactured Weapons". All the text in the "Weapon" entry does not use the word "Manufactured".
I'll give you a few 3.5 examples where this is the chase:
1. Errata description itself
2. Primary Source Rule in the Errata
3. Draconomicon
4. Rules Compendium
5. Spell Compendium
All these examples have rule text that shows a clear intent to change or set rules on a global/general level.
Your Manufactured Weapons section in the MM lacks any wording to show a clear intent to change or add rules on a global/general level. It is in the wrong book to make new rules or to change em on a global level without the explicit mention of the intent to change/add. It doesn't work that way, since we have the Primary Source Rule..Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-16 at 11:15 AM.
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)