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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post

    Does the text mention any intent to change rules on a global level?
    It doesn't need to, because there is no PHB "Manufactured Weapons" rule to change, in the first place.


    Reread your PHB. Check the Glossary for the word "Manufactured". It's not there. Check the Index for the word "Manufactured". It's not there.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 11:38 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #122

    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    It does not. The Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat asks you to choose a type of exotic weapon to become proficient in. This specifically limits the feats functionality to weapons labeled as exotic by the rules. Improvised weapons are distinct and do not have this label.

    Prestige classes which grant such proficiency are quite clearly an exception to this general rule. You are trying to treat an exception as new rules text to support your conclusion.
    have you even read the quote
    Quote Originally Posted by exotic weapon master
    Improvised Throwing Weapons: At 3rd level, the exotic weapon master can use artisan's tools to fashion a usable throwing weapon from any object (rock, branch, melee weapon, or the like) that she can lift. This process takes at least 1 hour, or more if conditions are poor. The range increment for such an improvised weapon is 10 feet. It deals 1d6 points of damage (×2 on a critical hit), and its threat range is 20. The exotic weapon master is automatically proficient with her improvised throwing weapon; anyone else who wishes to use it must spend an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat to avoid the —4 nonproficiency penalty. Most objects do bludgeoning damage; sharp items do piercing damage instead.
    you see the part where the party members without the prc can select improvised weapons as exotic weapon proficiency right?

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    you see the part where the party members without the prc can select improvised weapons as exotic weapon proficiency right?
    True, but after 1 hour of "fashioning" the phrase "not crafted to be a weapon" may no longer be applicable.

    An improvised weapon with 1 hour of fashioning isn't an improvised weapon any more in this paradigm.


    Presumably, each "fashioned" improvised weapon of a different shape would require a separate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

    So you'd get "Exotic Weapon Proficiency - fashioned rock", "Exotic Weapon Proficiency - fashioned branch" and so forth.




    My view is that even improvised weapons that haven't undergone the "fashioning process" that this PRC can put them through, are still weapons - and that the Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon and Holy Sword and Keen Edge spells, will all work on them, if the damage is right (Keen Edge only works on slashing weapons). Slashing improvised weapons can be conceived, so do exist, even if this character cannot fashion them.

    Quote Originally Posted by smasher0404 View Post
    treating Improvised Weapons as weapons for the purposes of effects and adjudication closes many more logical dysfunctions than it creates. Disarm, as previously mentioned, completely breaks if you do not allow Improvised Weapons to be treated as weapons since Disarm specifically requires attack rolls between weapons (except in the case of snatching worn items). If improvised weapons cannot be classified as weapons, you wouldn't be able to disarm someone using an improvised weapon. Logically, it makes no sense that I could disarm someone attacking me with a club, but couldn't disarm someone attacking me with a crowbar (which is explicitly treated as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to a club of its size).
    This, IMO, sums it up best.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 12:31 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #124

    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    True, but after 1 hour of "fashioning" the phrase "not crafted to be a weapon" may no longer be applicable.

    An improvised weapon with 1 hour of fashioning isn't an improvised weapon any more in this paradigm.


    Presumably, each "fashioned" improvised weapon of a different shape would require a separate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

    So you'd get "Exotic Weapon Proficiency - fashioned rock", "Exotic Weapon Proficiency - fashioned branch" and so forth.




    My view is that even improvised weapons that haven't undergone the "fashioning process" that this PRC can put them through, are still weapons - and that the Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon and Holy Sword and Keen Edge spells, will all work on them, if the damage is right (Keen Edge only works on slashing weapons). Slashing improvised weapons can be conceived, so do exist, even if this character cannot fashion them.


    This, IMO, sums it up best.
    the result of "fashioning" is "improvised throwing weapon". you telling me an "improvised throwing weapon" is not an improvised throwing weapon?

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    For the maker it is, possibly (as an exception to "not crafted to be thrown"). For anyone else it's an exotic weapon.
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  6. - Top - End - #126

    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    For the maker it is, possibly (as an exception to "not crafted to be thrown"). For anyone else it's an exotic weapon.
    so you really are saying an improvised throwing weapon is not an improvised throwing weapon but an exotic weapon despite its name as improvised throwing weapon.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    One modified by a character with that PRC, yes. All it takes to remove the "improvised" trait is a little crafting work.


    A little crafting work (maybe taking a bit longer?) can even turn a branch (improvised weapon) into a club (simple weapon).
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Can you or can you not use a hammer to deal spiked gauntlets to someone wearing a starmantle cloak?
    Did this thread finally find the answer?
    Last edited by noob; 2021-02-16 at 01:21 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #129

    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    One modified by a character with that PRC, yes. All it takes to remove the "improvised" trait is a little crafting work.


    A little crafting work (maybe taking a bit longer?) can even turn a branch (improvised weapon) into a club (simple weapon).
    except the end result is still an "improvised weapon". you cant call a nonimprovised weapon an improvised weapon. your not crafting anything. there are no stats for the "fashioned improvised weapon".

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Can you or can you not use a hammer to deal spiked gauntlets to someone wearing a starmantle cloak?
    Did this thread finally find the answer?
    thread found an answer a long time ago. its only one person that disagrees. well two since doctor joined.

    rules compendium says improvised weapons are a category of weapons
    we got multiple prcs that says improvised weapons are exotic weapons. (surprises me that people say "exotic weapon proficiency: improvised weapons" is a "prc exclusive". since when is "exotic weapon proficiency" a prc exclusive?)
    hamishspence pointed out the rules dont differentiate between manufactured, natural, or improvised weapons unless it specifically calls them out.

    its open and shut.

    and the one person disagreeing is yelling "primary source rule!" in order to ignore everything except the one phrase "not crafted to be a weapon" and then is trying very very very hard to make it sound like only things crafted to be weapons are weapons and try to somehow include natural weapons into this category and whatever.

    i stopped reading. whenever someone yells "primary source rule!" when there is no conflict, i no longer read their posts.
    Last edited by newguydude1; 2021-02-16 at 05:17 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    there are no stats for the "fashioned improvised weapon".
    Sure there are.

    Thrown Weapon, 1d6 bludgeoning damage, range increment 10 ft, Crit x2

    OR

    Thrown Weapon, 1d6 slashing damage, range increment 10 ft, Crit x2

    Weight - up to the DM and the player.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 01:50 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #131

    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Sure there are.

    Thrown Weapon, 1d6 bludgeoning damage, range increment 10 ft, Crit x2

    OR

    Thrown Weapon, 1d6 slashing damage, range increment 10 ft, Crit x2

    Weight - up to the DM and the player.
    thats what i meant. you have to use the guidelines to come up with it. it has no stats like dagger or spear.

    the other prc shows "exotic weapon proficiency" can be selected for specific improvised weapons. manacles. ladder. chair. and exotic weapon master's fashioned improvised weapons are just another type of improvised weapon. its still an improvised weapon.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    thats what i meant. you have to use the guidelines to come up with it.
    Those specific numbers are given in the PRC.

    I would tentatively agree that "fashioning" is not "crafting" and thus that the process of fashioning doesn't remove the "improvised" trait - it only adds the "exotic" trait.
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  13. - Top - End - #133

    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Those specific numbers are given in the PRC.

    I would tentatively agree that "fashioning" is not "crafting" and thus that the process of fashioning doesn't remove the "improvised" trait - it only adds the "exotic" trait.
    and your saying that manacles is not an exotic weapon but is viable target for exotic weapon proficiency because a prc has somehow the ability to turn normal manacles into exotic weapons. when there is literally no mechanical benefit for being an exotic weapon.

    if manacles and other improvised weapons are not exotic weapons then the prc would just say "no longer suffers the standard -4 non-proficiency penalty to hit when using a manacle as an improvised weapon" instead of calling it an exotic weapon and giving you the feat for free.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    The PRC turns normal manacles into exotic weapons (for the character) along with giving proficiency in them.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 02:11 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #135

    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The PRC turns normal manacles into exotic weapons (for the character) along with giving proficiency in them.
    where does it say it turns manacles into exotic weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by justiciar
    Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Manacles): Intimately familiar with the capture of criminals, justiciars have learned to do more with a pair of manacles than restrain a lawbreaker. A justiciar of 3rd level or higher can swing a pair of metal manacles in one hand as if they were a club without taking a penalty for using an improvised weapon. Masterwork manacles can be wielded as if they were a masterwork light flail.
    all i see is it giving you a free feat.

    does it say "wield manacles as if it were an exotic weapon" anywhere?
    Last edited by newguydude1; 2021-02-16 at 02:09 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    where does it say it turns manacles into exotic weapons



    all i see is it giving you a free feat.

    does it say "wield manacles as if it were an exotic weapon" anywhere?
    "Counts as an exotic weapon that you are proficient in" - in short, unlocking other feats that require proficiency. So a Justicar can take Weapon Focus (manacles), Weapon Specialisation (manacles) and so on.


    But a character with no levels in the PRC, cannot take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (manacles) or any feats that require proficiency.

    They still have the stats of a club (or, for the masterwork one, a light flail).

    "exotic weapon proficiency" is in the description of the ability. That means it is a "PRC class ability version" of the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 02:13 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #137

    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Counts as an exotic weapon that you are proficient in"
    i dont see this text in the prc anywhere. you cant just make up rules and try to pass them off as 1st party.

    clubs and light flails are not exotic weapons. theyre simple weapons.
    the prc doesnt say manacles count as exotic weapons nor does it say you can wield it as an exotic weapon.

    without your made up rules, the conclusion is simple. no special treatment from the prc. improvised weapons are exotic weapons.

    show me the rules man. where in the prc does it treat manacles as something other than normal improvised weapons?

  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    show me the rules man. where in the prc does it treat manacles as something other than normal improvised weapons?
    I was going by the title of the ability.

    It's worth noting that Monks don't get proficiency with light flails by default.


    So if you interpret it as only "they may be used as a light flail"


    rather than


    "They get the virtual feat "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (masterwork manacles)" -


    then, a Monk/Justiciar, instead of having the "improvised weapon penalty", has the "Not proficient with this particular simple weapon" penalty instead, when using masterwork manacles.


    "It grants two virtual feats - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (manacles) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (masterwork manacles)."


    IMO works better.


    Virtual feats can't be traded away with "embrace the dark chaos" and "shun the dark chaos" though.

    Masters of the Wild details the concept of virtual feats:


    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Despair View Post
    Masters of the Wild p. 20:

    If a character has a class feature or special ability that exactly duplicates the effects of a feat, then he or she can use that “virtual feat” as a prerequisite for other feats, as well as prestige classes, and so forth. [...] If the character ever loses the virtual prerequisite, he or she also loses access to any feats or other benefits acquired through its existence. For example, a ranger who wears armor heavier than light loses access to the virtual feats noted above, and thereby to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as well. Acquiring a virtual feat does not give a character access to its prerequisites.
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  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It doesn't need to, because there is no PHB "Manufactured Weapons" rule to change, in the first place.


    Reread your PHB. Check the Glossary for the word "Manufactured". It's not there. Check the Index for the word "Manufactured". It's not there.
    Wrong. Manufactured Weapons are a subtopic of the "Weapons" topic. Weapons and their use in combat are "rules that you need to play the game" and the Primary Source Rule explicitly states that the PHB takes precedence in this chases. Read and apply the Primary Source Rule.
    The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
    Note that the rule only gives a few examples and that by the wording you have to think further and apply it to everything else that fits the patterns mentioned. As such, the PHB is the Primary Source for "Weapons" and all of its subtopics. Unless another source is more "specific" it may not add rules. Unless another source calls out the intention to add or change general rules, it may not do so. Any rules that other sources assume or refer to must be supported by the Primary Source or they don't count.

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    have you even read the quote


    you see the part where the party members without the prc can select improvised weapons as exotic weapon proficiency right?
    Have you even read the Primary Source Rule? You are pointing us to a more specific situation, where a PRC may trump general rules for its own niche, but can't make any changes on a global/general level. For that an explicit intention needs to be mentioned as permission (as shows in the examples of my last post if you did bother to read it). The Primary Source doesn't support the assumed general rules that the ability talks about. As such it only works for its niche.

    If you want to argue about designer intends (RAI), that could be used as argument. Bot not if we talk about RAW. RAW is an abstract that doesn't care for intends or functionality (see: healing by drowning).

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Wrong. Manufactured Weapons are a subtopic of the "Weapons" topic.
    Then where is the word "Manufactured" in the "Weapons topic" section of the rules?


    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

    I've compared the SRD version to the PHB version, and as far as I can tell, neither uses the word "Manufactured" anywhere. Thus, for a definition of the word "Manufactured" in the context of D&D, the MM version is valid.


    Your definition of "Manufactured weapon" is "Object crafted to be a weapon" - and while you might be able to argue that it's RAI - it's not RAW, because the word "Manufactured" is not used in the PHB "Weapons" section.

    The MM places "Manufactured" as the counterpart to Natural - any weapon that is not part of the creature's body, is a manufactured weapon. And that's a perfectly valid thing for the MM to do.

    Using the MM as a guide, the tree of categories would be:

    Weapon

    Within this, "Manufactured" and "Natural"

    Within Natural Weapon - "Melee" and "Ranged"

    Within Manufactured Weapon "Improvised" and "crafted to be a weapon".

    Within Improvised - "Melee" and "Ranged"

    Within "crafted to be a weapon" - "Melee" and "Ranged".


    This tree of categories, ensures that spells that say "Weapon" or "Melee weapon" work on Natural weapons unless the spell specifically states otherwise (like the Magic Weapon spell).
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  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Then where is the word "Manufactured" in the "Weapons topic" section of the rules?


    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm

    I've compared the SRD version to the PHB version, and as far as I can tell, neither uses the word "Manufactured" anywhere. Thus, for a definition of the word "Manufactured" in the context of D&D, the MM version is valid.


    Your definition of "Manufactured weapon" is "Object crafted to be a weapon" - and while you might be able to argue that it's RAI - it's not RAW, because the word "Manufactured" is not used in the PHB "Weapons" section.

    The MM places "Manufactured" as the counterpart to Natural - any weapon that is not part of the creature's body, is a manufactured weapon. And that's a perfectly valid thing for the MM to do.

    Using the MM as a guide, the tree of categories would be:

    Weapon

    Within this, "Manufactured" and "Natural"

    Within Natural Weapon - "Melee" and "Ranged"

    Within Manufactured Weapon "Improvised" and "crafted to be a weapon".

    Within Improvised - "Melee" and "Ranged"

    Within "crafted to be a weapon" - "Melee" and "Ranged".


    This tree of categories, ensures that spells that say "Weapon" or "Melee weapon" work on Natural weapons unless the spell specifically states otherwise (like the Magic Weapon spell).
    I guess we can agree that the weapons in the "weapons" list consists of "unarmed strike" and otherwise that what in real life is defined as manufactured weapons. If you dislike the term "manufactured weapon", we can switch it to the term "Weapons from the weapon list" to be more precise and we would have the same result from the rules. Any other book which presents additional weapons has text that show the intent to "add new weapon to the game" or something like that. As such, Improvised Weapons would still lack any positive wording regarding their status as weapons.

    The MM is still not the Primary Source for Weapons. The Errata explicitly divides the topics for the PHB and MM in:
    The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
    The Errata makes clear, that it is not the Primary Topic of the MM and as such it has no right to add or change rules unless it explicitly call out that intention (which it doesn't).

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post

    The Errata makes clear, that it is not the Primary Topic of the MM and as such it has no right to add or change rules unless it explicitly call out that intention (which it doesn't).
    The Rules Compendium, however, does "explicitly call out that intention" at the start of the book.

    Page 5, Rules Compendium: "When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence."

    Page 150, Rules Compendium: Weapons: "Some creatures employ manufactured weapons when they attack. In essence, a manufactured weapon is any weapon that isn't intrinsic to the creature".

    Weapon Categories:

    Simple, Martial, and Exotic

    Melee and Ranged

    Light, One, and Two-Handed

    Weapon Size

    Nonlethal

    Improvised


    "Improvised" is a weapon category in the Rules Compendium. "Manufactured weapons" is defined in the Rules Compendium.
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    If you dislike the term "manufactured weapon", we can switch it to the term "Weapons from the weapon list" to be more precise and we would have the same result from the rules. Any other book which presents additional weapons has text that show the intent to "add new weapon to the game" or something like that. As such, Improvised Weapons would still lack any positive wording regarding their status as weapons.
    Improvised Weapons is lacking any positive wording regarding their status as weapons? It's literally in the name and is specifically expressed as a category of "weapon" in the PHB. How do you define weapon? "A weapon is a weapon meant to kill things." That is not how definitions work. A proper definition wouldn't use the word being defined to define itself. "A weapon is an object used or created to be used to inflict harm to a body or another object." Improvised weapons is providing rules for weapons that were not created for that purpose, but are functioning as weapons. It is not a misnomer.

    RAW clearly states they are in fact weapons. Using the definition of a weapon to try and prove that a weapon is not a weapon just because it doesn't state it is a weapon in its own definition is misguided.
    Last edited by Darg; 2021-02-17 at 02:58 PM.

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    To be fair, some things with the word "weapon" in the name are not weapons even in the D&D sense - but not many.


    Most notable of these is "breath weapon". You cannot take Weapon Focus (breath weapon), cannot cast Magic Weapon or Magic Fang on your breath weapon, etc - because a breath weapon does not make attack rolls.
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The Rules Compendium, however, does "explicitly call out that intention" at the start of the book.

    Page 5, Rules Compendium: "When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence."

    Page 150, Rules Compendium: Weapons: "Some creatures employ manufactured weapons when they attack. In essence, a manufactured weapon is any weapon that isn't intrinsic to the creature".

    Weapon Categories:

    Simple, Martial, and Exotic

    Melee and Ranged

    Light, One, and Two-Handed

    Weapon Size

    Nonlethal

    Improvised


    "Improvised" is a weapon category in the Rules Compendium. "Manufactured weapons" is defined in the Rules Compendium.
    Sorry but you still make the same mistake and ignore the more specific definition of "Improvised Weapons" on the very same page in the Rules Compendium (p150). There is an identical definition of Improvised Weapon, that can also be found in the PHB and SRD. Improvises Weapons is still the most specific general rule and thus trumps all other general weapon rules in that regard.

    Try to train to apply the Primary Source Rule pls instead of ignoring it constantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Improvised Weapons is lacking any positive wording regarding their status as weapons? It's literally in the name and is specifically expressed as a category of "weapon" in the PHB. How do you define weapon? "A weapon is a weapon meant to kill things." That is not how definitions work. A proper definition wouldn't use the word being defined to define itself. "A weapon is an object used or created to be used to inflict harm to a body or another object." Improvised weapons is providing rules for weapons that were not created for that purpose, but are functioning as weapons. It is not a misnomer.

    RAW clearly states they are in fact weapons. Using the definition of a weapon to try and prove that a weapon is not a weapon just because it doesn't state it is a weapon in its own definition is misguided.
    We already had that argument and the counterargument is: "weapon-like spell". So next, you are going to enhance your Ice Axe or Elritch Glaive, because "weapon" is part of the "weapon-like spell"?^^ Sorry it doesn't work that way. This is 3.5 and we have rules to suppress common sense of that kind. The very definition of a word/term sets its boundaries. And that definition prevents interpretations like you try here.

    Further I have shown similar thought loops like this with "Special Abilities and Natural Abilities":
    While Natural Abilities is listed in the Special Abilities page, it is at the same time (more specific) excluded as Special Ability. The same can be said about "Improvised Weapons" too. While the category is part of "weapons" the actual "Improvised Weapons" themselves don't count as weapons. They are defined as objects used in combat. Try to accept this non-intuitive concept pls.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    There is an identical definition of Improvised Weapon, that can also be found in the PHB and SRD. Improvises Weapons is still the most specific general rule and thus trumps all other general weapon rules in that regard.
    And that definition "not crafted to be a weapon" does not necessarily disqualify it from being one.

    This is not a case of "Rules as Written" vs "Rules as Intended" - this is a case of differing interpretations of Rules as Written.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post


    We already had that argument and the counterargument is: "weapon-like spell". So next, you are going to enhance your Ice Axe or Elritch Glaive, because "weapon" is part of the "weapon-like spell"?^^ Sorry it doesn't work that way.
    The rules are that some feats that can only be applied to weapons, can be applied to "weaponlike spells" (Weaponlike is all one word, not "Weapon-like"). Such as Weapon Focus, and Point Blank Shot.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-18 at 12:36 AM.
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  27. - Top - End - #147
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    And that definition "not crafted to be a weapon" does not necessarily disqualify it from being one.

    This is not a case of "Rules as Written" vs "Rules as Intended" - this is a case of differing interpretations of Rules as Written.

    The rules are that some feats that can only be applied to weapons, can be applied to "weaponlike spells" (Weaponlike is all one word, not "Weapon-like"). Such as Weapon Focus, and Point Blank Shot.
    It ("not crafted to be weapon") doesn't qualify your either. Where is the text part in the "definition of Improvised Weapons" that qualifies them as weapons? The definition carefully avoids to call em weapon directly and only talks about objects used in combat. It's not defined as weapon! Remember that 3.5 is permission based and the very definition of the term didn't give you the permission to use/count em as weapons. Only to use "objects" in "combat". And depending on their shapes, you may use em like a light weapon, thrown weapon, 2h-weapon (the text refers to pick a similar weapon from the weapon list for the stats).. Still no permission to count em as "weapon".

    Sorry, but this is sole a chase of RAW vs RAI. Cause RAW is pretty clear on this. Your arguments need to ignore the most important rule in 3.5: The Primary Source Rule. The rule that tells you how to use all the other rules. If you use that rule correctly, there is sole one way to interpret it. As long as you ignore the Primary Source Rule, your assumptions are RAI and not RAW based. RAW doesn't just mean, take the plain text in the books. RAW means, take the plain text in the books + the plain text in the ERRATA (including the Primary Source Rule).

    And yeah, as said, the designers have failed big with not including it in the PHB in the first place. All their rules did base on this assumption (which is later known as the Primary Source Rule in the ERRATA). This caused us to learn the rules the wrong way for years. I myself didn't know about it for roughly my first 7 years. Then another 3 years until I started to slowly (!) realize what is does and why it is there (and mandatory). Suddenly many parts of the FAQ (not all, just many) did make sense: e.g. the size stacking ruling explained in the FAQ, which was heavily attacked by the community at first. Many thought that "they failed once again..". I was one of em. Until I realized how the Primary Source Rule affects the situation. That solved the mystery behind it. Now another 10 years later it defines how I view 3.5 rules and rules overall. All rulings are based on this kind of primary source rule assumption in real life: games, laws.. everything). What I try to tell here is, that the Primary Source Rule is the most important rule and you shouldn't ignore it lightly. It is your navigator for the rule hierarchy map.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    biggrin Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    So I guess after 5 pages, the answer is "Ask your DM".

  29. - Top - End - #149

    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    So I guess after 5 pages, the answer is "Ask your DM".
    No, the answer is yes. And it only took 2 pages.

  30. - Top - End - #150
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    So I guess after 5 pages, the answer is "Ask your DM".
    My vote goes for "ask the Primary Source Rule" ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    No, the answer is yes. And it only took 2 pages.
    5 pages of Primary Source Rule and you still ignore it ;)

    _____________

    “Our Primary Source Rule in heaven,
    hallowed be your name.
    Your kingdom come,
    your will be done,
    on table as it is in books.
    Give us this day our daily rules,
    and forgive us our misinterpretations,
    as we also have forgiven our teammates.
    And lead us not into overoptimization,
    but deliver us from Xp loss.”
    Amen ^^

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