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2021-02-16, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 11:38 AM.
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2021-02-16, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
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2021-02-16, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
True, but after 1 hour of "fashioning" the phrase "not crafted to be a weapon" may no longer be applicable.
An improvised weapon with 1 hour of fashioning isn't an improvised weapon any more in this paradigm.
Presumably, each "fashioned" improvised weapon of a different shape would require a separate Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.
So you'd get "Exotic Weapon Proficiency - fashioned rock", "Exotic Weapon Proficiency - fashioned branch" and so forth.
My view is that even improvised weapons that haven't undergone the "fashioning process" that this PRC can put them through, are still weapons - and that the Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon and Holy Sword and Keen Edge spells, will all work on them, if the damage is right (Keen Edge only works on slashing weapons). Slashing improvised weapons can be conceived, so do exist, even if this character cannot fashion them.
This, IMO, sums it up best.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 12:31 PM.
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2021-02-16, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-16, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
For the maker it is, possibly (as an exception to "not crafted to be thrown"). For anyone else it's an exotic weapon.
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 01:10 PM.
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2021-02-16, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-16, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
One modified by a character with that PRC, yes. All it takes to remove the "improvised" trait is a little crafting work.
A little crafting work (maybe taking a bit longer?) can even turn a branch (improvised weapon) into a club (simple weapon).Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2021-02-16, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Can you or can you not use a hammer to deal spiked gauntlets to someone wearing a starmantle cloak?
Did this thread finally find the answer?Last edited by noob; 2021-02-16 at 01:21 PM.
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2021-02-16, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
except the end result is still an "improvised weapon". you cant call a nonimprovised weapon an improvised weapon. your not crafting anything. there are no stats for the "fashioned improvised weapon".
thread found an answer a long time ago. its only one person that disagrees. well two since doctor joined.
rules compendium says improvised weapons are a category of weapons
we got multiple prcs that says improvised weapons are exotic weapons. (surprises me that people say "exotic weapon proficiency: improvised weapons" is a "prc exclusive". since when is "exotic weapon proficiency" a prc exclusive?)
hamishspence pointed out the rules dont differentiate between manufactured, natural, or improvised weapons unless it specifically calls them out.
its open and shut.
and the one person disagreeing is yelling "primary source rule!" in order to ignore everything except the one phrase "not crafted to be a weapon" and then is trying very very very hard to make it sound like only things crafted to be weapons are weapons and try to somehow include natural weapons into this category and whatever.
i stopped reading. whenever someone yells "primary source rule!" when there is no conflict, i no longer read their posts.Last edited by newguydude1; 2021-02-16 at 05:17 PM.
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2021-02-16, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 01:50 PM.
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2021-02-16, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
thats what i meant. you have to use the guidelines to come up with it. it has no stats like dagger or spear.
the other prc shows "exotic weapon proficiency" can be selected for specific improvised weapons. manacles. ladder. chair. and exotic weapon master's fashioned improvised weapons are just another type of improvised weapon. its still an improvised weapon.
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2021-02-16, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
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2021-02-16, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
and your saying that manacles is not an exotic weapon but is viable target for exotic weapon proficiency because a prc has somehow the ability to turn normal manacles into exotic weapons. when there is literally no mechanical benefit for being an exotic weapon.
if manacles and other improvised weapons are not exotic weapons then the prc would just say "no longer suffers the standard -4 non-proficiency penalty to hit when using a manacle as an improvised weapon" instead of calling it an exotic weapon and giving you the feat for free.
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2021-02-16, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The PRC turns normal manacles into exotic weapons (for the character) along with giving proficiency in them.
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 02:11 PM.
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2021-02-16, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Last edited by newguydude1; 2021-02-16 at 02:09 PM.
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2021-02-16, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
"Counts as an exotic weapon that you are proficient in" - in short, unlocking other feats that require proficiency. So a Justicar can take Weapon Focus (manacles), Weapon Specialisation (manacles) and so on.
But a character with no levels in the PRC, cannot take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (manacles) or any feats that require proficiency.
They still have the stats of a club (or, for the masterwork one, a light flail).
"exotic weapon proficiency" is in the description of the ability. That means it is a "PRC class ability version" of the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 02:13 PM.
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2021-02-16, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
i dont see this text in the prc anywhere. you cant just make up rules and try to pass them off as 1st party.
clubs and light flails are not exotic weapons. theyre simple weapons.
the prc doesnt say manacles count as exotic weapons nor does it say you can wield it as an exotic weapon.
without your made up rules, the conclusion is simple. no special treatment from the prc. improvised weapons are exotic weapons.
show me the rules man. where in the prc does it treat manacles as something other than normal improvised weapons?
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2021-02-16, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
I was going by the title of the ability.
It's worth noting that Monks don't get proficiency with light flails by default.
So if you interpret it as only "they may be used as a light flail"
rather than
"They get the virtual feat "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (masterwork manacles)" -
then, a Monk/Justiciar, instead of having the "improvised weapon penalty", has the "Not proficient with this particular simple weapon" penalty instead, when using masterwork manacles.
"It grants two virtual feats - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (manacles) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (masterwork manacles)."
IMO works better.
Virtual feats can't be traded away with "embrace the dark chaos" and "shun the dark chaos" though.
Masters of the Wild details the concept of virtual feats:
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-16 at 02:46 PM.
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2021-02-16, 10:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Wrong. Manufactured Weapons are a subtopic of the "Weapons" topic. Weapons and their use in combat are "rules that you need to play the game" and the Primary Source Rule explicitly states that the PHB takes precedence in this chases. Read and apply the Primary Source Rule.
The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
Have you even read the Primary Source Rule? You are pointing us to a more specific situation, where a PRC may trump general rules for its own niche, but can't make any changes on a global/general level. For that an explicit intention needs to be mentioned as permission (as shows in the examples of my last post if you did bother to read it). The Primary Source doesn't support the assumed general rules that the ability talks about. As such it only works for its niche.
If you want to argue about designer intends (RAI), that could be used as argument. Bot not if we talk about RAW. RAW is an abstract that doesn't care for intends or functionality (see: healing by drowning).Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-16 at 10:47 PM.
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2021-02-16, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Then where is the word "Manufactured" in the "Weapons topic" section of the rules?
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm
I've compared the SRD version to the PHB version, and as far as I can tell, neither uses the word "Manufactured" anywhere. Thus, for a definition of the word "Manufactured" in the context of D&D, the MM version is valid.
Your definition of "Manufactured weapon" is "Object crafted to be a weapon" - and while you might be able to argue that it's RAI - it's not RAW, because the word "Manufactured" is not used in the PHB "Weapons" section.
The MM places "Manufactured" as the counterpart to Natural - any weapon that is not part of the creature's body, is a manufactured weapon. And that's a perfectly valid thing for the MM to do.
Using the MM as a guide, the tree of categories would be:
Weapon
Within this, "Manufactured" and "Natural"
Within Natural Weapon - "Melee" and "Ranged"
Within Manufactured Weapon "Improvised" and "crafted to be a weapon".
Within Improvised - "Melee" and "Ranged"
Within "crafted to be a weapon" - "Melee" and "Ranged".
This tree of categories, ensures that spells that say "Weapon" or "Melee weapon" work on Natural weapons unless the spell specifically states otherwise (like the Magic Weapon spell).Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-17 at 01:32 AM.
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2021-02-17, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
I guess we can agree that the weapons in the "weapons" list consists of "unarmed strike" and otherwise that what in real life is defined as manufactured weapons. If you dislike the term "manufactured weapon", we can switch it to the term "Weapons from the weapon list" to be more precise and we would have the same result from the rules. Any other book which presents additional weapons has text that show the intent to "add new weapon to the game" or something like that. As such, Improvised Weapons would still lack any positive wording regarding their status as weapons.
The MM is still not the Primary Source for Weapons. The Errata explicitly divides the topics for the PHB and MM in:
The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2021-02-17, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The Rules Compendium, however, does "explicitly call out that intention" at the start of the book.
Page 5, Rules Compendium: "When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence."
Page 150, Rules Compendium: Weapons: "Some creatures employ manufactured weapons when they attack. In essence, a manufactured weapon is any weapon that isn't intrinsic to the creature".
Weapon Categories:
Simple, Martial, and Exotic
Melee and Ranged
Light, One, and Two-Handed
Weapon Size
Nonlethal
Improvised
"Improvised" is a weapon category in the Rules Compendium. "Manufactured weapons" is defined in the Rules Compendium.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-17 at 12:31 PM.
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2021-02-17, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Improvised Weapons is lacking any positive wording regarding their status as weapons? It's literally in the name and is specifically expressed as a category of "weapon" in the PHB. How do you define weapon? "A weapon is a weapon meant to kill things." That is not how definitions work. A proper definition wouldn't use the word being defined to define itself. "A weapon is an object used or created to be used to inflict harm to a body or another object." Improvised weapons is providing rules for weapons that were not created for that purpose, but are functioning as weapons. It is not a misnomer.
RAW clearly states they are in fact weapons. Using the definition of a weapon to try and prove that a weapon is not a weapon just because it doesn't state it is a weapon in its own definition is misguided.Last edited by Darg; 2021-02-17 at 02:58 PM.
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2021-02-17, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
To be fair, some things with the word "weapon" in the name are not weapons even in the D&D sense - but not many.
Most notable of these is "breath weapon". You cannot take Weapon Focus (breath weapon), cannot cast Magic Weapon or Magic Fang on your breath weapon, etc - because a breath weapon does not make attack rolls.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2021-02-17, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Sorry but you still make the same mistake and ignore the more specific definition of "Improvised Weapons" on the very same page in the Rules Compendium (p150). There is an identical definition of Improvised Weapon, that can also be found in the PHB and SRD. Improvises Weapons is still the most specific general rule and thus trumps all other general weapon rules in that regard.
Try to train to apply the Primary Source Rule pls instead of ignoring it constantly.
We already had that argument and the counterargument is: "weapon-like spell". So next, you are going to enhance your Ice Axe or Elritch Glaive, because "weapon" is part of the "weapon-like spell"?^^ Sorry it doesn't work that way. This is 3.5 and we have rules to suppress common sense of that kind. The very definition of a word/term sets its boundaries. And that definition prevents interpretations like you try here.
Further I have shown similar thought loops like this with "Special Abilities and Natural Abilities":
While Natural Abilities is listed in the Special Abilities page, it is at the same time (more specific) excluded as Special Ability. The same can be said about "Improvised Weapons" too. While the category is part of "weapons" the actual "Improvised Weapons" themselves don't count as weapons. They are defined as objects used in combat. Try to accept this non-intuitive concept pls.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-17 at 06:09 PM.
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2021-02-18, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
And that definition "not crafted to be a weapon" does not necessarily disqualify it from being one.
This is not a case of "Rules as Written" vs "Rules as Intended" - this is a case of differing interpretations of Rules as Written.
The rules are that some feats that can only be applied to weapons, can be applied to "weaponlike spells" (Weaponlike is all one word, not "Weapon-like"). Such as Weapon Focus, and Point Blank Shot.Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-18 at 12:36 AM.
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2021-02-18, 02:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
It ("not crafted to be weapon") doesn't qualify your either. Where is the text part in the "definition of Improvised Weapons" that qualifies them as weapons? The definition carefully avoids to call em weapon directly and only talks about objects used in combat. It's not defined as weapon! Remember that 3.5 is permission based and the very definition of the term didn't give you the permission to use/count em as weapons. Only to use "objects" in "combat". And depending on their shapes, you may use em like a light weapon, thrown weapon, 2h-weapon (the text refers to pick a similar weapon from the weapon list for the stats).. Still no permission to count em as "weapon".
Sorry, but this is sole a chase of RAW vs RAI. Cause RAW is pretty clear on this. Your arguments need to ignore the most important rule in 3.5: The Primary Source Rule. The rule that tells you how to use all the other rules. If you use that rule correctly, there is sole one way to interpret it. As long as you ignore the Primary Source Rule, your assumptions are RAI and not RAW based. RAW doesn't just mean, take the plain text in the books. RAW means, take the plain text in the books + the plain text in the ERRATA (including the Primary Source Rule).
And yeah, as said, the designers have failed big with not including it in the PHB in the first place. All their rules did base on this assumption (which is later known as the Primary Source Rule in the ERRATA). This caused us to learn the rules the wrong way for years. I myself didn't know about it for roughly my first 7 years. Then another 3 years until I started to slowly (!) realize what is does and why it is there (and mandatory). Suddenly many parts of the FAQ (not all, just many) did make sense: e.g. the size stacking ruling explained in the FAQ, which was heavily attacked by the community at first. Many thought that "they failed once again..". I was one of em. Until I realized how the Primary Source Rule affects the situation. That solved the mystery behind it. Now another 10 years later it defines how I view 3.5 rules and rules overall. All rulings are based on this kind of primary source rule assumption in real life: games, laws.. everything). What I try to tell here is, that the Primary Source Rule is the most important rule and you shouldn't ignore it lightly. It is your navigator for the rule hierarchy map.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-18 at 02:19 AM.
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2021-02-18, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
So I guess after 5 pages, the answer is "Ask your DM".
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2021-02-18, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-02-18, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
My vote goes for "ask the Primary Source Rule" ;)
5 pages of Primary Source Rule and you still ignore it ;)
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“Our Primary Source Rule in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on table as it is in books.
Give us this day our daily rules,
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And lead us not into overoptimization,
but deliver us from Xp loss.”
Amen ^^Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-18 at 07:51 PM.
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