Results 151 to 168 of 168
-
2021-02-18, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
hamishspence pointed out when the combat rules say the word "weapon" it includes improvised weapons.
Both core and the Rules Compendium explicitly say that improvised weapons are a "category of weapons."
There are spells that target weapons that explicitly address improvised weapons
There are PrCs that allow both the player and his party members to grab Exotic Weapon Proficiency with Improvised Weapons.
There is no wiggle room for other interpretations here. Anything that says "weapons" includes manufactured, natural, and improvised weapons unless explicitly excluded. You can take weapon focus: a type of improvised weapon.
This is as clear as the rules get.
On the other hand, we have one poster who says "weapon" in the combat rules has a different definition than the rest of d&d with no rule support.
One poster who says weapons that are not crafted cannot be "weapons" with no rule support which defies not only d&d's definition of a weapon, but also the English language's definition of a weapon.
One poster who claims "primary source rule" lets him completely disregard all supporting text regarding the subject matter that says he's wrong.
And so forth.
This kind of cherry picking arbitrary... um... whatever you call this. If you think these are valid arguments I guess you could say the answer is "ask your DM". Not at any of my tables though.Last edited by magicalmagicman; 2021-02-18 at 08:11 PM.
-
2021-02-18, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
-
2021-02-18, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
-
2021-02-18, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Again, the more specific definition of "Improvised Weapons" itself may trump other general rules, since it is part of those general rules but more specific. While the "Improvised Weapon - category" may count as a "weapon category", that doesn't mean that the actual "Improvised Weapon" count as weapons. It would carry over, if the definition wouldn't redefine em as "object used in combat".
I guess you still didn't read the Primary Source Rules, cause otherwise you would know that this is a "specific" "exception" and doesn't become a general rule. "Clubs" are "special", not generic improvised weapons.
e.g you have 2 wooden sticks. One might be good enough to be a "club" because it has good physical properties for that. The other may be lacking those good qualities and just be a mere "improvised weapon". The DM decides if you find a "Club" or just a mere "improvised weapon". Because you know, Not any part of a any tree makes a "good club".
You still ignore the Primary Source Rule, Amen..
What should I expect.. you too make the same mistake and try to use a "specific rule" as "general rule". The sling gives you the "specific" permission to use stones as ammunition and gives even more specific rules to handle them (dmg for one size category smaller).
___________
I'm praying here that you at least try to get the Primary Source Rule and stop just ignoring it with every arguments you bring up. 5 pages of total ignorance of the Primary Source Rule that I am constantly pointing out here.
And what do I get? Another "Minority Joker" + another argument that again ignores the Primary Source Rule...
Welcome to hell..Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-18 at 09:14 PM.
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
-
2021-02-19, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-19 at 03:00 AM.
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2021-02-19, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
You mean those weapons that are clearly defined as weapons due to the weapon table(s)? All of those weapons are "explicitly" declared as "weapons" from the Primary Source.
We are still running in circles here. We already had that argument how the manufactured weapons and unarmed strike are clearly defined due to the table. You constantly somehow avoid all "specific" definitions in the Primary Source.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
-
2021-02-19, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Natural weapons are not in the table, yet are "clearly defined as weapons" - just weapons that follow slightly different rules.
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2021-02-19, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
-
2021-02-19, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Pray tell where the books define certain weapons as weapons? Weapons on the table are categorized and ordered on the table for perusal.
Also, please tell us where the books let you take an action to attack with an improvised weapon? Melee attacks are only performed by melee weapons. Ranged attacks are only performed by ranged weapons. The rules for improvised weapons don't provide rules for what action is required to use an improvised weapon. Improvised weapons not being weapons makes them completely unusable as weapons by RAW.
-
2021-02-20, 03:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The "Weapons" label of the table by base logic about tables. The tables defines anything presented there as a weapon. It's called "Table: "Weapons"" for a reason.
Originally Posted by Weapon Descriptions
A 100% clear definition. Compare that with Improvised Weapons which is lacking a positive statement and only talks about "objects used in combat". The difference is clear as day & night.
The "Improvised Weapons" rule gives you the permission to use em in combat and refers the DM to pick a fitting weapon from the weapon list for its assumed stats (piercing/bludgeoning/slashing and light/1-h/2-h/thrown and dmg stats; crit is set to 20/x2 as norm for Improvised Weapons). All permissions given to make attacks are given ("specific" permission to be used in combat = permission to do attacks) and all needed stats are provided (on DM's decision as the rule points out).
I don't get where you did see the problem here (kindly asking)? Seems pretty clear to me at least.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-20 at 03:42 AM.
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
-
2021-02-20, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The rules don't specifically mention that you are permitted to use improvised weapons with melee or ranged attacks. The rules only permit the use of weapons for attacks. "Use in combat" and an attack roll penalty don't tell you what kind of action to take to actually make an improvised weapon attack. Melee attacks only permit using a melee weapon. Ranged attacks only permit using ranged weapons. If improvised weapons are not weapons then it is impossible to make attacks.
So yes, while you can use them in combat with an attack roll penalty there isn't much else you can do if you can't even attack with them..
So if an improvised weapon is functioning as a club, it can make melee attacks? Therefore it satisfies the melee weapon permission to make melee attacks? So it is a weapon by use even if not by classification? Meaning it is a weapon in fashion and therefore an eligible weapon for things that require using a weapon such as disarm? Since it is a weapon in this regard and the target of spells being a weapon don't specifically require the target to be a weapon in all ways but simply considered a weapon. Then spells that target weapons can target improvised weapons.Last edited by Darg; 2021-02-20 at 11:08 AM.
-
2021-02-20, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
The rules for Improvised Weapons give you all the permission needed to attack:
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Primary Source Rule and Specific trumps General. I'm getting motion sickness here from all the circles we are running in this thread..^^
PS: Pls don't be offended here, but it literary takes me zero effort to see each time where you did ignore the Primary Source Rule (or Specific Trumps General which is a byproduct of the same rule). We are reaching slowly the end of the 6. page here, where the same rules get ignored for the sake of a witch hunt here, imho..Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-02-20 at 07:55 PM.
Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
-
2021-02-21, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
Primary source says that a weapon is an object. Primary source does not say that objects not designed as weapons aren't weapons. This is the one thing you have to prove for your point to have validity. Normal language dictates that improvised weapons are weapons. The rules basically require it to make sense.
Primary source tells us that improvised weapons are a category of weapon. You have yet to actually provide convincing evidence that this isn't the case. Text trumps table. Therefore the text saying that improvised weapons are a category of weapon trumps their lack of inclusion in the table.
Please tell us where the rules say they aren't weapons and then your point is proven. It can't be implication as there is text that explicitly says they are weapons.
-
2021-02-22, 05:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
1. As said, all other categories (the weapons and unarmed strike in the weapon list, natural weapons) did all give the property to count/be weapons in their very definition. Improvised Weapons carefully avoid that in its definition.
2. Even in normal language / real life, the "primary source rule" works the same. We have a general definition of (real) weapons. And than we have specific definitions for special niches (e.g. for laws, in certain building/area, in the plane...
But never become these specific definitions general definitions that apply everywhere where weapons are mentioned. Specific beats General, but doesn't become General.
Primary source tells us that improvised weapons are a category of weapon. You have yet to actually provide convincing evidence that this isn't the case. Text trumps table. Therefore the text saying that improvised weapons are a category of weapon trumps their lack of inclusion in the table.
Please tell us where the rules say they aren't weapons and then your point is proven. It can't be implication as there is text that explicitly says they are weapons.
Natural Abilities (NA) is a part of the "Special Abilities" page.
NA are defined as anything that is not EX, SLA, SU.
Then we have a "Special Abilities" paragraph that is defined as EX, SLA, SU and thus excludes NA.
While the category "Natural Abilities" is a "Special Abilities", the actual Natural Abilities themselves are not Special Abilities.
The same mental spaghetti as we have with "Improvised Weapon" and "Weapons".Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
My latest build showcases:
Gaive'Ur, the last Eldritch Knight of Bane (✝)
PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)
-
2021-02-22, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
I would say that they're a weapon while they're being wielded. So you probably can't enhance one the normal way (Craft Magic Arms and Armor), but you could cast Magic Weapon on it.
The potential issue with animating them is that animated weapons don't generally move the same way as general animated objects. They fly/hover rather than walking, and they don't articulate in ways other than those directly related to attacking.
So by that standard, a weapon-animated humanoid statue would fly around with the limbs not bending, and attack by ramming into people. Like a very glitchy video game character.Last edited by icefractal; 2021-02-22 at 06:28 PM.
-
2021-02-22, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
thats not true. animate weapon does not grant animated objects the ability to fly. they need to hop around at 10ft speed
animate object doesnt give animated weapons the ability to fly either so they need to hop around at 10ft speed too.
the only thing that does make animated weapons fly is the flying weapon enchantment.
and there are plently of flexible weapons. whips. flails. spiked chain.
-
2021-02-22, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
So it doesn't, that's pretty goofy. Swords hopping around like hostile pogo sticks.
Now that I look it up, it does work "in most ways as an animated object", so at most you'd need to put joints in. And find a way to wield it.
Incidentally, I wonder if anyone has ever used this spell for its "normal" purpose - a 3rd level spell with Concentration to get a mediocre summon, and the weapon used could get broken? And yeah, I'm sure a lot of Assassins want to use their actions on a minion that's noisier than them and doesn't have Sneak Attack or Death Attack. They even ruled out the one assassination use I could see (animate a needle and have it go through a keyhole or small crack to attack someone inside).Last edited by icefractal; 2021-02-22 at 07:22 PM.
-
2021-02-22, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: can you target improvised weapons with things that only affect weapons?
if you look at the mmi official animated object picture, the objects can get quite bendy despite being made out of metal so i dont think you even need joints. they cant be so bendy that it gives them mechanical benefits like rope's constrict and stuff like that, but they can be bendy enough to wield another weapon imo. cause animated statues wielding a weapon is a staple of animated objects.