OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

...Can't Tsukiko teleport?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yes she could. If she memorized the spell that day.

[Metastachydium]

Oh, I'm not denying her academic credentials at all but, she had proof that Redcloak was a traitor and when discovered snooping around in his study she decided to confront him right there despite knowing that he had a mind-control-the-undead spell. she was rather foolish.

In actual fact, Redcloak used his Command Undead ability (which every single Evil cleric has and needs no preparing) rather than a spell, but otherwise yes, Tsukiko is a fine example of how a high INT and WIS score can sometimes have difficulty keeping one from being extremely stupid.

...Can't Tsukiko teleport?

That room was dimensionally locked?

[Fyraltari]

...Can't Tsukiko teleport?

She tried to (Page 2, 7th panel).

[danielxcutter]

So unless the room's under antimagic or a dimensional lock then she'd be able to escape.

That's why the Azure City prison managed to hold her incidentally; like the Empire of Blood it had antimagic.

Wait, how do you make an antimagic field permanent again?

[Fyraltari]

So unless the room's under antimagic or a dimensional lock then she'd be able to escape.

That's why the Azure City prison managed to hold her incidentally; like the Empire of Blood it had antimagic.

Wait, how do you make an antimagic field permanent again?

Regular castings of the spell?

[Ron Miel]

I thought "schmuck" was a negative assesment of someone's mental might. Is it not?

No, you're thinking of schmendrick. A schmuck is an obnoxious or contemptible person.

[Peelee]

Homebrewed Permanency also works.

Anyway, the point is, "doors are for schmucks in this world" is not a hard and fast rule at all.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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And the one time we did see a no-door-prison, the prisoners still escaped.

[Fyraltari]

No, you're thinking of schmendrick. A schmuck is an obnoxious or contemptible person.

Merriam-webster says otherwise.

Edit: also I don't speak Yiddish.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If the forum's nanny filters did, we couldn't use the word schmuck.

[Riftwolf]

See I thought Schmuck was a gullible person, but that might be my interpretation of a word I don't often encounter outside 80s spoof films.

[Dion]

See I thought Schmuck was a gullible person, but that might be my interpretation of a word I don't often encounter outside 80s spoof films.

Is this a spaceballs thread now?

[Peelee]

Is this a spaceballs thread now?

Nah, it's a Spaceballs 2 thread.

[Riftwolf]

Is this a spaceballs thread now?

Here's hoping!
(I've seen Spaceballs maybe twice and read the novelisation as a kid but if it derails another Sequel Trilogy Grumble-Mill I'M ALL FOR IT)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Water...water

Oil...oil

Room service...room service




I may have watched that movie an unhealthy amount of times.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, she got out, didn't she? And having the dungeon in an otherwise remote and inaccessible location would probably have avoided that.

So guess the azurites were kinda schmuks for being so traditional in their detainment conceptions. :P

[Kornaki]

Don't forget the snarl perpetually escapes its prison, which also doesn't come with a door. Coupled with the SoD event, and I think we have multiple data points of prisons without doors failing to contain prisoners, and no data points where it works, suggesting a 100% failure rate.

On the other hand prisons with doors also haven't contained anyone until their agreed upon release date in the comic, so I'm not sure what the takeaway is. Don't try to imprison people?

[Peelee]

Well, she got out, didn't she? And having the dungeon in an otherwise remote and inaccessible location would probably have avoided that.

By virtue of being asked if she wanted to get out by her captors, yes. That does not make a terribly compelling argument about doors, though. Neither does the "remote and inaccessible location" part.

[Jasdoif]

So unless the room's under antimagic or a dimensional lock then she'd be able to escape.

That's why the Azure City prison managed to hold her incidentally; like the Empire of Blood it had antimagic.

Wait, how do you make an antimagic field permanent again?

In this particular scenario, you get out Stronghold Builder's Guidebook and craft sigils of antimagic.

[Goblin_Priest]

Don't forget the snarl perpetually escapes its prison, which also doesn't come with a door. Coupled with the SoD event, and I think we have multiple data points of prisons without doors failing to contain prisoners, and no data points where it works, suggesting a 100% failure rate.

On the other hand prisons with doors also haven't contained anyone until their agreed upon release date in the comic, so I'm not sure what the takeaway is. Don't try to imprison people?

Survivor bias, maybe. Following characters that are stuck in their prison and never get to escape would make for a boring story.

Dorukan and Lirian could technically be said to be in a door-less prison.

And I guess our sample size of what people in the OotS setting do is rather small. That said, a door means that even a level 1 commoner can potentially escape.

Lirian's prison had an important loophole, though a rather small one. It took a high level caster turning undead via an obscure ritual thanks to the aid of a high level cleric in order to bypass. Pretty much no one else could have pulled off this escape. A more generic anti-magic zone as the azurites did would have solved this issue, though. You cite it as an example of failure, but it took the biggest baddest team in the world to break out, pretty much.

Also, I never meant to imply that the lack of a door was sufficient. Just that the presence of a door is a needless security flaw, once you have the magical means to go without one. Locks can be picked, doors can be broken, schedules of regular door openings can be exploited, etc. It also means that the location of the cell is more or less obvious, easing break-ins, compared to something hidden miles away, buried far from prying eyes.

By virtue of being asked if she wanted to get out by her captors, yes. That does not make a terribly compelling argument about doors, though. Neither does the "remote and inaccessible location" part.

Oh, I got mixed up. Was thinking of whoever got released by the boulder hit. I think that was Nale, then?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yes, followed shortly by Sabine and Thog.

[Kornaki]

Also, I never meant to imply that the lack of a door was sufficient. Just that the presence of a door is a needless security flaw, once you have the magical means to go without one. Locks can be picked, doors can be broken, schedules of regular door openings can be exploited, etc. It also means that the location of the cell is more or less obvious, easing break-ins, compared to something hidden miles away, buried far from prying eyes.

Spoiler

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To play devil's advocate, if there was a door on that cave Lirian could have looked in and seen they were doing the ritual and stopped it ahead of time.
So maybe being able to see inside the cell has advantages.

[Ruck]

I agree that this room is clearly multi-purpose and that you don't have to be a schmuck not to have a prison with no doors.

I also was idly wondering if Cliffport even *has* the resources to maintain that sort of thing. We've only seen a few prisons, and sure, Azure City has a secret order of paladins and clerics, but how common is that in the Stickverse?

[danielxcutter]

I agree that this room is clearly multi-purpose and that you don't have to be a schmuck not to have a prison with no doors.

I also was idly wondering if Cliffport even *has* the resources to maintain that sort of thing. We've only seen a few prisons, and sure, Azure City has a secret order of paladins and clerics, but how common is that in the Stickverse?

Cliffport's jail is easy enough that pre-development Elan and Thog could break out of it with nothing but the prison clothes on their back. Heck, the only reason Elan couldn't do that himself is because he didn't know the right spells(or know how to apply them); someone with proper blasting spells or even Dimension Door could get out faster than it'd take to lock them up.

[Ruck]

Cliffport's jail is easy enough that pre-development Elan and Thog could break out of it with nothing but the prison clothes on their back. Heck, the only reason Elan couldn't do that himself is because he didn't know the right spells(or know how to apply them); someone with proper blasting spells or even Dimension Door could get out faster than it'd take to lock them up.

Yeah, I started thinking about this in relation to the schmuck comment, because I was wondering how many places in the Stickverse would even have anything like the resources necessary to maintain a prison with no doors. Lots of Commoners out there.

[hroþila]

I think Elan would always have found escaping from the Cliffport prison exactly as hard regardless of his level. The universe quite literally adapts itself to the PCs to provide an adequate challenge, that's built into the setting.

[The MunchKING]

In a world like this one, if you want to make a prison, and you aren't a schmuk detaining other smuks, you'd more likely than not avoid having doors.

The opposite really. A door can be reinforced or guarded or other stuff. If you're REALLY not keeping small-timers, you want to stop the possibility of NON-door based escapes. Specifically teleporting. Also probably gaseous forms, and stone shape/pass. So Antimagic zones.

[danielxcutter]

Are there creatures that can slip through cracks even in an AMF? Might want to make the doors airtight if so, though the only methods I can think of are supernatural or magical anyways.

[The MunchKING]

No, you're thinking of schmendrick. A schmuck is an obnoxious or contemptible person.

With a name like Smuckers, it HAS to be good.

[Hotu]

Quick question - why is everyone assuming this character has already appeared? I'm assuming it's a comment that Rich made but, I'm out of the loop on this one.