Captain's shield

[Kyberwulf]

So I thought the shield flying through the air was a factor of captains strength. When did it become a thing anyone could do? It makes him through in the thing somehow.. less impressive.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kyberwuf
So I thought the shield flying through the air was a factor of captains strength. When did it become a thing anyone could do? It makes him [throwing] the thing somehow.. less impressive.

I never had the impression that only Cap could lift or use the shield, since Hawkeye threw it to Cap during their first fight with Ultron. Hawkeye isn't even especially strong, just hyper-accurate. I also seem to recall that Natasha threw it up to Cap from her motorcycle on the freeway in Korea ("I'm always picking up after you boys").

So throwing it doesn't seem to be that special, at least by superhero standards, and I'm guessing the vibranium is actually a lot lighter than steel would be. The real trick is doing all the multiple rebound maneuvers, and as Sam demonstrated, for normal people that takes a lot of practice.

[Rater202]

Remembering the comics Captain America isn't superhuman strong, he's just exceptionally strong and athletic.

Theoretically, anyone who puts in the effort can use it.

The shield flying through the air and bouncing off of things has as much to do with its composition—"Proto-Adamtnium" an accidentally created alloy of Iron, Wakandan Vibranium, and third metal that nobody quite recalls in an unknown ratio—which gives it unique properties vis a vis kinetic energy as It doesn't the athleticism of the person throwing it.

[Dire_Flumph]

Howard Stark describes it as "Stronger than steel, and a third of the weight" when we first see the shield in Captain America: The First Avenger.

[Kyberwulf]

I didn't say pick it up as in its super heavy, nor throw it somewhat. I meant throw it, bounce off three trees and have it bounce back to you. Besides I don't care how many heavy bits of metal you lift or how many pulls up you can do. No one is picking up a motorcycle and using it as a bludgeoning device.. nor stopping a helicopter from lifting off just by holding it.

[Rater202]

I didn't say pick it up as in its super heavy, nor throw it somewhat. I meant throw it, bounce off three trees and have it bounce back to you. Besides I don't care how many heavy bits of metal you lift or how many pulls up you can do. No one is picking up a motorcycle and using it as a bludgeoning device.. nor stopping a helicopter from lifting off just by holding it.

Again, that's a property of the metal, not a property of the guy throwing it.

[Dienekes]

I didn't say pick it up as in its super heavy, nor throw it somewhat. I meant throw it, bounce off three trees and have it bounce back to you. Besides I don't care how many heavy bits of metal you lift or how many pulls up you can do. No one is picking up a motorcycle and using it as a bludgeoning device.. nor stopping a helicopter from lifting off just by holding it.

Think of it as a baseball pitcher doing crazy things with their throw. In theory anyone can learn how to do anything that pitcher is doing. But when you get a good pitcher the amount of nonsense they can do by just throwing a sphere around is kinda insane.

Anyone can pick up the shield and then throw it. Maybe even get a good bounce on their first try if they’re lucky. But what made Steve special is he essentially created all the insane baseball throws that usually take generations of dedicated players to figure out. Seriously, I’m not particularly knowledgeable of the sport but my understanding is the curveball got invents in the early 1900s, when the game was played for centuries at that point.

And not only did he invent them he could do these tricks better than anyone else because he was just that awesome. Even other super soldiers (in the comics) weren’t able to do everything Steve just naturally figured out.

In the Falcon and Winter Soldier show, we see one person in a photo op who could do some neat things, but we don’t know how long he trained to do it. And everyone else practicing in order to get some decently consistent bounces. And honestly none of them have been able to perform some of the more insane bounces that happened in the MCU movies.

[Dire_Flumph]

Adding to Dienekes response, if you want to add some rationality through implied world-building, you could theorize that in the wake of World War II and Cap's passing, "Shield-Tossing" may have become a popular competition/exhibition sport among the US Military in honor of Steve Rogers.

It would explain why Sam or others would have even had experience in bouncing the shield around in the first place.

[Kyberwulf]

Meh, it makes no sense. Say you got two people. One could chuck a ball 100 yards. The other could lob the thing 300 yards easy. Now say you got a magic ball. Despite what either of them can do..before hand. You guys are telling me the ball would sail at 10,000 yards no matter who threw it? I mean. I get that the shield could augment the throw or whatever, but make Falcons throw comparable to Captains?

[Rater202]

Meh, it makes no sense. Say you got two people. One could chuck a ball 100 yards. The other could lob the thing 300 yards easy. Now say you got a magic ball. Despite what either of them can do..before hand. You guys are telling me the ball would sail at 10,000 yards no matter who threw it? I mean. I get that the shield could augment the throw or whatever, but make Falcons throw comparable to Captains?

Yes.

If that's what the ball is designed to do.

[M1982]

The whole super soldier (or any super really) vs. normal human in the MCU shifts and morphs however the story currently needs it.

Given some feats that super soldiers have been shown to perform Sam was holding his own way too good against them.

But that doesn't only apply to him. All the "non-super-avengers" are way too durable for mere humans.

May one day they will reveal that someone has been dosing the water supply with a less powerfull offshot of the super soldier serum for decades ;)

Yes.

If that's what the ball is designed to do.

But is the shield designed to do that? Or is ist just a dumb piece of metal?

A very hard metal that is also lighter than such a hard metal ought to be, but just dumb metal. And how hard you can throw it ultimately depends entirely on how strong you are.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kyberwulf
You guys are telling me the ball would sail at 10,000 yards no matter who threw it?

I don’t think anyone’s saying this.

I’m saying—and Dire_Flumph found the quote to support it—that Cap is not the only person who can pick up and throw the shield, which was your original concern, and he’s not even the only person who can do maneuvers with it.

But he’s the one person who’s been able to get the most out of the shield, owing to his physical enhancements and his instinct for combat.

Originally Posted by Kyberwulf
…but make Falcons throw comparable to Captains?

I’m not aware of any source in the MCU that presents Falcon’s abilities as equal to Cap’s. Sam is still very much a beginner at the whole Captain America gig, shield-throwing included.

[Mordar]

Remembering the comics Captain America isn't superhuman strong, he's just exceptionally strong and athletic.

Theoretically, anyone who puts in the effort can use it.

The shield flying through the air and bouncing off of things has as much to do with its composition—"Proto-Adamtnium" an accidentally created alloy of Iron, Wakandan Vibranium, and third metal that nobody quite recalls in an unknown ratio—which gives it unique properties vis a vis kinetic energy as It doesn't the athleticism of the person throwing it.

The only think I disliked about MCU Cap...way too strong. Supposed to be peak human. Not flinging guys 15 feet in the air while treading water (yeah, maybe standing on a ladder, but still).

The shield really is a black box. Can completely reduce the kinetic energy of an object striking it...but can also rebound off an object with nearly perfect transfer of energy. Almost seems sentient!

I didn't say pick it up as in its super heavy, nor throw it somewhat. I meant throw it, bounce off three trees and have it bounce back to you. Besides I don't care how many heavy bits of metal you lift or how many pulls up you can do. No one is picking up a motorcycle and using it as a bludgeoning device.. nor stopping a helicopter from lifting off just by holding it.

Again, that's a property of the metal, not a property of the guy throwing it.

I think the object must have composition that *allows* it to happen, but the angles, speed, rotation and force are supplied by the athlete. Sam had to learn the skill. Hence the 3-tree setup and all of the "fail" time.

But is the shield designed to do that? Or is ist just a dumb piece of metal?

A very hard metal that is also lighter than such a hard metal ought to be, but just dumb metal. And how hard you can throw it ultimately depends entirely on how strong you are.

I think a lot of athletes would suggest it is more a product of skill and training than strength (assuming, of course, you have sufficient strength to manipulate the object and allow your skill to matter.

All in all, I appreciate the "training sequence" so we could pretend he built up the skill as opposed to just grabbing it and being able to pull off the triple-rail-masse-two-goon-combo-back-to-his-arm trick.

Also had no issue with him holding his own in 1-on-1 combat with Karli's super soldiered goons. As mentioned in the other thread, Steve, Bucky and Walker (post-SS) should have been able to tear through those guys because they all have extensive hand to hand training (and years and years of experience against people capable of killing them), while the Flag Smashers are rando-kids with chemical enhancement to base stats. Sam's training was less HtH focused, and probably not nearly as many actual encounters, but his Avengers time should have helped up his game.

- M

[Rater202]

The shield really is a black box. Can completely reduce the kinetic energy of an object striking it...but can also rebound off an object with nearly perfect transfer of energy. Almost seems sentient!

And on the rare occasions where it gets damaged, which other than the very first time has been the work of cosmic beings or high-level gods, it's always swiftly mended and becomes more durable than ever.

Last time was during Fear Itself, where it got cracked cleanly n half and was reforged with Asgardian Uru.

Which basically means that the shield can now store infinite amounts of any kind energy and slowly magnifies the power stored within it.

Nothing's come of that yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if centuries from now The Mighty Shield becomes a weapon on par with Mjolnir.

[Kyberwulf]

Are they rando kids? I thought they were guards in Mandirpor maybe not elite guards. But had some kind of training.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The shield really is a black box. Can completely reduce the kinetic energy of an object striking it...but can also rebound off an object with nearly perfect transfer of energy. Almost seems sentient!

It was made by Howard Stark...it was probably too early in the timeline tech-wise for it to contain an actual AI, but being crazily over engineered is a distinct possibility.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rater202
And on the rare occasions where it gets damaged, which other than the very first time has been the work of cosmic beings or high-level gods, it's always swiftly mended and becomes more durable than ever.

This is something I've been wondering about, especially since Falcon & Winter Soldier.

In Endgame, by the time Thanos was done with Cap, the shield was jaggedly broken and about half its original size. But when older Cap hands it to Sam, it's perfect again.

Where did Cap get the new, unbroken shield from? Is it a relic from a branch timestream that has otherwise disappeared? What happened to the original, jaggedly broken one? And was any of this ever addressed in the MCU, or did they just gloss over it?

And will we see either shield in the custody of the TVA?

[Mordar]

Are they rando kids? I thought they were guards in Mandirpor maybe not elite guards. But had some kind of training.

Based on the look, age, variability, etc., and timeline (they only radicalized post-snap), I got the sense they went to Madripor to get the SSS treatment...not that they were there beforehand. Even if they did get some training...Bucky (in particular) and Walker had been training and actively fighting longer than Karli has been out of diapers.

It was made by Howard Stark...it was probably too early in the timeline tech-wise for it to contain an actual AI, but being crazily over engineered is a distinct possibility.

Was thinking more books side than MCU...though interestingly there was a period of time in the books when some relatively low-tech additions were added to the shield before Cap pitched them.

I suspect it is an impossibility to logically write a solution that ties up all of the shield's "innate" properties and demonstrated uses with anything other than "a wizard did it".

- M

[Tyrant]

And on the rare occasions where it gets damaged, which other than the very first time has been the work of cosmic beings or high-level gods, it's always swiftly mended and becomes more durable than ever.

Last time was during Fear Itself, where it got cracked cleanly n half and was reforged with Asgardian Uru.

Which basically means that the shield can now store infinite amounts of any kind energy and slowly magnifies the power stored within it.

Nothing's come of that yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if centuries from now The Mighty Shield becomes a weapon on par with Mjolnir.

Maybe they will have a story with Major Victory that has something like that. I know he had the shield at some point in the future with the Guardians from the year 3000 (which was written well before Fear Itself so it would have to be a new story).

[Rynjin]

Besides I don't care how many heavy bits of metal you lift or how many pulls up you can do. No one is picking up a motorcycle and using it as a bludgeoning device.

You talking **** about the Dragon of Dojima, boy?

[Peelee]

Again, that's a property of the metal, not a property of the guy throwing it.

Tracking is a property of the metal?

[Rater202]

Tracking is a property of the metal?

In this case, yes.

Vibranium's properties are "whatever the hell we want it to do."

[Peelee]

In this case, yes.

Vibranium's properties are "whatever the hell we want it to do."

Ha! Fair point.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
It was made by Howard Stark...it was probably too early in the timeline tech-wise for it to contain an actual AI, but being crazily over engineered is a distinct possibility.

Even if it was just the alloy disc when Stark first forged it, Steve spent some time in Wakanda after Civil War, so they could have retrofitted the shield with an AI mesh or something.

[Rater202]

Ha! Fair point.

...I wasn't joking.

Vibranium can absorb almost any kind of energy and the only time an object made of Vibranium has ever been "overloaded" was when The Devil Hulk punched the Black Panther as hard as he could and overloaded his suit.

(T'Challa was fine.)

By charging it with different energies or creating alloys with different substances, you can make a vibranium alloy that can do almost literally anything. The people of what is now Wakanda have only scratched the surface of what it's capable of.
For example, there's a second Vibranium asteroid impact sight in the Savage Lands, but unlike the Wakandan sight, this Vibranium has impurities. Which makes it vibrate at a frequency that melts any metal that isn't itself on contact.

(Savage Lands Vibranium is usually called "Anti-Metal" to avoid confusion.)

Skybreaker, a sword forged at the lip of a volcano by the first king of Wakanda... Violates the laws of thermodynamics. It produces exponentially more energy that it absorbs.

It is also virtuallly indestructible, never needs sharpening or honing, and prolonged direct contact with the metal causes burns and cancers to living organic matter but makes non-living organic matter and inorganic matter more durable.

To stress, this is literally the first thing in recorded human history to ever be made of Vibranium. That was thousands of years ago, the techniques have been refined since then.

[Peelee]

...I wasn't joking.

I'm aware. Doesn't mean it wasn't amusing.

[Rater202]

The only things that are more insane than vibranium are unstable molecules which can literally do anything, and Living Abyss which behaves nearly identically to unstable molecules(explicitly stated in King in Black: Black Panther) but is alive, can alter its properties on the fly, and can kill and/or steal the life and power from gods and cosmic entities.

[Tyrant]

Even if it was just the alloy disc when Stark first forged it, Steve spent some time in Wakanda after Civil War, so they could have retrofitted the shield with an AI mesh or something.

Steve left the shield with Tony at the end of Civil War and didn't get it back until after the five ear gap in Endgame.

[Keltest]

I think the best thing to do here is agree with Spider-Man, accept that it just doesnt care about our pathetic laws of physics and move on.

[The Glyphstone]

To quote myself from the last time a discussion like this happened, "If Vibranium was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be Bs."