The Falcon & Winter Soldier

[ecarden]

@Cikomyr2

If this had been an arrest, I might agree. But it wasn't. It was just a fight over who should keep the shield. If it had been an arrest, then they wouldn't have left him there once they got the shield.

Which they seem to have (again, hard to tell as we skip around a lot, this isn't as bad as the Sam apparently abandons Sharon to patch herself up to carry out Karli's corpse one, but it does our heroes no favors).

Maybe it's just me, but I don't actually find the question of 'who should have this shield' particularly interesting. The question of 'who should be the next Captain America and who has the authority, moral, legal, whatever to decide that,' is.

Honestly, if John is as screwed up as you're stating, leaving him injured and crazy on the ground in a random Latvian warehouse is pretty immoral (to whoever he, a supersoldier at this point, might run into next) even if it works out.

[Tyndmyr]

They swiped it because he used it to murder someone and promptly fled the scene, and they were the only ones with a hope of stopping him without more casualties. We know from empirical evidence (and more importantly, Sam and Bucky know) that a super-soldier carrying that shield can be very difficult for even a swat team to handle, never mind regular law enforcement.

I mean...a super soldier with no shield can also be this? Like, for instance, the Winter Soldier? I have difficulty imaging that Sam and Bucky have not thought of this. Focusing on the shield here is really strange.

The difference between a super soldier with a shield and a super soldier without a shield is not all that large. The shield isn't what makes Cap effective. Yeah, he uses it well, but he also does just great when it isn't available.

1) The gun is far more likely to be actually his than the shield.
2) Technically they left it on the ground somewhere. It slid out of camera, which by movie logic means it might as well have fallen into a black hole for all we know (or I care).
3) Without the shield and with a broken arm, Walker is a lot more likely to just go turn himself in - which he did.

I would assume that all guns used by them are issued, since they have them when they are officially US agents, and generally that comes with standard issue weaponry, both in the real world, and from everything we know about the MCU military forces. I don't see how ownership comes into it at all.

If you're arguing that Walker needed to be stopped ethically, cool. There's some sound logic here. But it's not the shield that is the problem. It's Walker that's the problem. A murderous killhappy dude with superpowers and a gun can still kill people, same as if he had a shield.

[Cikomyr2]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't actually find the question of 'who should have this shield' particularly interesting. The question of 'who should be the next Captain America and who has the authority, moral, legal, whatever to decide that,' is.

[Psyren]

It was wrong for Walker to keep that shield and I think nobody knew that more than Walker. But he let his own sense of self importance and self-righteousness go to his head.

Guys, he can't even admit that the guy he killed wasn't the one who killed his buddy. He is either outright delusional, or he is in constant self-rationalization mode.

This. And hoo-boy, that hearing afterward, as well as meeting with Lemar's family...

Honestly, if John is as screwed up as you're stating, leaving him injured and crazy on the ground in a random Latvian warehouse is pretty immoral (to whoever he, a supersoldier at this point, might run into next) even if it works out.

Well I'm glad you're finally admitting he's crazy at least

Anyway, let's be clear about what we see in the show - the only one who actually left the scene was Bucky. Sam was still there, holding the shield, when it ends. Then we cut to him meeting up with Torres to drop of his broken wings an unspecified amount of time later, and then immediately back to the US for John's hearing. Nothing Sam did in between those moments was captured. Maybe he did arrest Walker, or call for backup. Maybe the gun was taken too. You all are making a lot of assumptions about what Sam did and didn't do. All we know is that Walker was clearly apprehended and put on trial by the committee. That's it.

So yeah, I take back the "Walker turned himself in" comment, because we don't even know if he did that. (@Tyndmyr also)

[Kareeah_Indaga]

(again, hard to tell as we skip around a lot, this isn't as bad as the Sam apparently abandons Sharon to patch herself up to carry out Karli's corpse one, but it does our heroes no favors).

Oh yes that part is cringe-worthy. They could have fixed it so easily too. Add three lines:

Sam: Sharon, you’re hurt, let me take you to the hospital.
Sharon: Are you crazy, if you take me there they’ll arrest me. I’ll be fine!
Sam: Well in that case there’s something else I need to do...

Then he picks up Karli’s carcass and flies off with it to make his speech. But give some kind of indication that Sam knows Sharon is injured, and Sharon either doesn’t want or doesn’t need help.

[ecarden]

Well I'm glad you're finally admitting he's crazy at least

Anyway, let's be clear about what we see in the show - the only one who actually left the scene was Bucky. Sam was still there, holding the shield, when it ends. Then we cut to him meeting up with Torres to drop of his broken wings an unspecified amount of time later, and then immediately back to the US for John's hearing. Nothing Sam did in between those moments was captured. Maybe he did arrest Walker, or call for backup. Maybe the gun was taken too. You all are making a lot of assumptions about what Sam did and didn't do. All we know is that Walker was clearly apprehended and put on trial by the committee. That's it.

So yeah, I take back the "Walker turned himself in" comment, because we don't even know if he did that. (@Tyndmyr also)

I think you may be confusing me with someone else as there's a lot of cross-talk here. I've never taken a position on John's state of mind. Unless you think my suggesting Sam should have been more competent at talking him down meant John wasn't messed up? That was very definitely not what I meant there. Saying a trained counselor should be better at dealing with someone is not intended to suggest that person is in a good mental state.

I'm a little grumpy that you ignore the part where I say it's hard to tell if they just left him there given how it's shot, in order to tell me that we don't know that? I mean...yeah...we don't, that's why I said it's hard to tell.

It seems extraordinarily unlikely that Sam did any of that as no one except John knows where the shield went and if Sam had called anyone in, I sort of think they would, one way or another. But it's not shown.

[Psyren]

Calling it in doesn't mean Sam had to stick around, or even reveal who placed the call, so John or the authorities not knowing where the shield is is neither here nor there.
The council seems to think he has it ("return the shield to us with expedience!"), suggesting John didn't put them on Sam's scent - and why would he, since he hates them and they stripped his life away - though Val mysteriously already knows he doesn't.

Sorry for implying you didn't think he was crazy. But I dismiss the idea that being a trained counselor means you can predict with 100% accuracy what will set off someone who is crazy either. It means you're better equipped for that situation than someone who isn't trained, but the whole point of being crazy at the end of the day is that he is unpredictable.

[ecarden]

Calling it in doesn't mean Sam had to stick around, or even reveal who placed the call, so John or the authorities not knowing where the shield is is neither here nor there.
The council seems to think he has it ("return the shield to us with expedience!"), suggesting John didn't put them on Sam's scent - and why would he, since he hates them and they stripped his life away - though Val mysteriously already knows he doesn't.

Sorry for implying you didn't think he was crazy. But I dismiss the idea that being a trained counselor means you can predict with 100% accuracy what will set off someone who is crazy either. It means you're better equipped for that situation than someone who isn't trained, but the whole point of being crazy at the end of the day is that he is unpredictable.

Okay, three quick points:

1) I never claimed he should be able to predict with 100% accuracy, merely that demanding the shield was unwise and was predictably so for Sam, who has spent time with John.
2) The whole point of being crazy is very much not that you are unpredictable. Crazy and chaotic are not synonymous. Many forms of insanity make you extremely predictable.
3) I guess it's possible Sam called it in, then stuck around to watch until someone arrived to cart John off? But I don't think that's likely as if GRC folks had found him, unconscious, broken arm, no shield, then the assumption that he still has the shield is pretty stupid. More likely is John cleaned himself up and returned to base, then presumably lied about what happened with Sam/Bucky (which again, bad). If he shows up on his own, then there's a reasonable story that he ditched the shield somewhere and could retrieve it. If he's picked up without it at the sight of a battle where the shield was obviously used...not so much. To me, the most likely explanation is that they left, which is not great. If he's enough of a threat that the fight is necessary than you can't just leave him there. Especially given that they should know at this point that Karli on the same formula was shot multiple times and just ran off and is apparently totally fine now, up and killing folks (though again, the time-scale is ambiguous, I couldn't tell how long she had to heal between Zemo shooting her and meeting up with Sam/ambushing John.)

[Psyren]

Their responsibility ends at disarming him and maybe calling it in. Without the shield, anyone with a gun (such as, say, Latvian police) can take it from there - supersoldiers not being bulletproof and all - especially with his arm broken.

And to be purely factual about it, he didn't have a gun either when Bucky left. Was it still on the floor nearby? Again, maybe. Clearly its presence didn't matter to the narrative one way or another. I'll just assume Sam either took it too, or took the bullets out of it or something, but the fact is that it was irrelevant. Since the show wasn't clear about it one way or the other, I'll go with the assumptions that fit with the text. *points at sig*

[ecarden]

Their responsibility ends at disarming him and maybe calling it in. Without the shield, anyone with a gun (such as, say, Latvian police) can take it from there - supersoldiers not being bulletproof and all - especially with his arm broken.

And to be purely factual about it, he didn't have a gun either when Bucky left. Was it still on the floor nearby? Again, maybe. Clearly its presence didn't matter to the narrative one way or another. I'll just assume Sam either took it too, or took the bullets out of it or something, but the fact is that it was irrelevant. Since the show wasn't clear about it one way or the other, I'll go with the assumptions that fit with the text. *points at sig*

I mean, their responsibility ends at none of this. They aren't cops, or representatives of the Latvian government. They're doing all of this voluntarily. The question isn't one of responsibility, it's one of ethics. And it depends on their motivation for fighting him. If they just want the shield, then they're fine. If the goal is to stop John before he hurts someone else, then I guess they succeeded because the narrative works out that way, but that seems to have more to do with luck than any precautions/planning on their part.

I have repeatedly explained why I don't believe the assumption that you're making fits the text, but at this point we're going around in circles, so I'm going to disengage. Have a nice day.

[Psyren]

I mean, their responsibility ends at none of this. They aren't cops, or representatives of the Latvian government. They're doing all of this voluntarily. The question isn't one of responsibility, it's one of ethics. And it depends on their motivation for fighting him. If they just want the shield, then they're fine. If the goal is to stop John before he hurts someone else, then I guess they succeeded because the narrative works out that way, but that seems to have more to do with luck than any precautions/planning on their part.

I have repeatedly explained why I don't believe the assumption that you're making fits the text, but at this point we're going around in circles, so I'm going to disengage. Have a nice day.

I do genuinely believe there's more to it than "luck." But again, we can disagree. Have a nice day.

[Starbuck_II]

Except we don't care about the finer points of legality. And even if we did, John Walker just committed a war crime by murdering a surrendering opponent in plain daylight.

You guys seem to have a fuzzy concept of morality here. What's legal is not necessary right. What's illegal is not necessary immoral.

It was wrong for Walker to keep that shield and I think nobody knew that more than Walker. But he let his own sense of self importance and self-righteousness go to his head.

Guys, he can't even admit that the guy he killed wasn't the one who killed his buddy. He is either outright delusional, or he is in constant self-rationalization mode.

It wasn't a war crime then because he never surrendered.
Maybe he meant to, but he didn't. Instead he was ninja'd by Walker.

[understatement]

I think lying on the ground on the back and yelling "It wasn't me!" and holding up arms in protection counts as surrender.

[M1982]

Their responsibility ends at disarming him and maybe calling it in.

The had neither right nir responsibility. And really a throwing disc is a really poor weapon to begin with.

If they gad doubts about Walker's immediate plans they could have approached him like

"Hey John, what a mess. We're really sorry about Lemar.

Let's head back to HQ for Intel and Backup to round them up to prevent them from scattering and escaping next time."

And see how he reacts.

But no, they have been nothing but ##### to him from the very first time John tried to extend his hand in friendship during their first meeting through the time they rebuffed his further attempts to at least etablish a cordial working relationship to assaulting him at a point where he had secluded himself in an empty warehouse and was no immediate threat to anyone.


Also I don't get the critic about his lie to Lemar's family. He just helped them find closure.

A surving soldier telling the grieving family of his comrade that he died quickly even if in truth the death was messy and painful is a staple in war movies.

[Kornaki]

Also I don't get the critic about his lie to Lemar's family. He just helped them find closure. .

My read from that scene is the only person getting closure from his statements is John Walker. It didn't look like the family cared to me.

[Cikomyr2]

It wasn't a war crime then because he never surrendered.
Maybe he meant to, but he didn't. Instead he was ninja'd by Walker.

That's the hill you wanna die on buster?

"Yhea, captain America technically didn't committed a war crime, because he shoved his shield down that dude's face before he could surrender."

"Wasn't he begging for his life?"

"Haha yhea that was hilarious"

John Walker, a.k.a. Captain America, committed a war crime. And captain America is beholder to more than the technicality of the law

[Sapphire Guard]

The scene does cut away, but we get a sense of their priorities. Bucky walks away, Sam focuses on the shield, with no due care towards the person they've just beaten up.

Okay, the shield is government issue. That doesn't give Sam the right to take it, and even if it was actually stolen from him, he still doesn't have any right to beat someone up and take it. They sure don't surrender it to his superiors, but instead keep it for themselves.

That's...not a good look for them.

This is such a disingenuous argument. I can assure you that what was going in Walker's head at the time wasn't "I have to protect government property against the people who previously owned government property"

What he's thinking is something like 'this is mine, you have no right to take it'...which is actually correct?

If Sam and Bucky were lawfully empowered to take Walker into custody (and since they face no legal repercussions for anything they do it can be assumed that they are lawfully empowered to act in such an international peacekeeping role), they were also lawfully empowered to disarm him.

I don't think they were. They've done massively illegal stuff like break Zemo out of prison and Bucky's massively in breach of his parole conditions. Sam takes contracts from the US govt, but it seems they were acting alone in Latvia.

You guys seem to have a fuzzy concept of morality here. What's legal is not necessary right. What's illegal is not necessary immoral.

Either way, they're still caught. You don't get to violently take someone's stuff just because you want it, legally or morally. Also, can you not judge people's concepts of morality based on their disagreements about a tv show?

I mean, it's not like shieldless supersoldiers are so harmless (see:Karli) Bucky and Sam are not acting out of some utilitarian need to take the shield out of the equation or because it's some grand symbol of office, they're taking it because they're offended to see Steve's shield used to kill someone.

[Starbuck_II]

That's the hill you wanna die on buster?

"Yhea, captain America technically didn't committed a war crime, because he shoved his shield down that dude's face before he could surrender."

"Wasn't he begging for his life?"

"Haha yhea that was hilarious"

John Walker, a.k.a. Captain America, committed a war crime. And captain America is beholder to more than the technicality of the law

Until, you said that last statement I was in agreement.

[Cikomyr2]

Until, you said that last statement I was in agreement.

Then I think we have nothing to talk about. I just won't respect your opinion on what's acceptable in life and what is not.

[Psyren]

The had neither right nir responsibility.

As the only two people in a however-many-mile-radius who can stop a rogue Super Soldier, disagree on both counts.

And really a throwing disc is a really poor weapon to begin with.

Empirically, in the hands of a Super Soldier this is also false.

If they gad doubts about Walker's immediate plans they could have approached him like

"Hey John, what a mess. We're really sorry about Lemar.

Let's head back to HQ for Intel and Backup to round them up to prevent them from scattering and escaping next time."

And see how he reacts.

But no, they have been nothing but ##### to him from the very first time John tried to extend his hand in friendship during their first meeting through the time they rebuffed his further attempts to at least etablish a cordial working relationship to assaulting him at a point where he had secluded himself in an empty warehouse and was no immediate threat to anyone.

You skipped several steps there. Like Walker straight-up assaulting the civilians who were sympathetic to the Flagsmashers to make the investigation harder, or storming the meeting with Karli just as Sam was making progress. And how much "immediate threat" he was can't be determined from a few minutes in a warehouse either.

Also I don't get the critic about his lie to Lemar's family. He just helped them find closure.

A surving soldier telling the grieving family of his comrade that he died quickly even if in truth the death was messy and painful is a staple in war movies.

The lie wasn't about Lemar "dying quickly", it was that he murdered Lemar's killer. He refused, even then, to admit that the guy he chased down and murdered was unjustified.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by understatement
I think lying on the ground on the back and yelling "It wasn't me!" and holding up arms in protection counts as surrender.

Agreed, and several people have made this point repeatedly, but not everyone accepts it.

.

[Cikomyr2]

Agreed, and several people have made this point repeatedly, but not everyone accepts it.

.

And then some tried to argue that whatever your moral standards are, Captain America's should be higher.

[Tyndmyr]

Sorry for implying you didn't think he was crazy. But I dismiss the idea that being a trained counselor means you can predict with 100% accuracy what will set off someone who is crazy either. It means you're better equipped for that situation than someone who isn't trained, but the whole point of being crazy at the end of the day is that he is unpredictable.

Eh, that's more of movie-crazy. Real life issues are often fairly predictable. I used to date someone with a touch of PTSD, there were certain sounds that'd make her flinch because they sounded like a mortar attack. It was quite predictable. Many other maladies are similar. It's something out of the ordinary, sure, but it's not pure randomness. I would imagine that someone such as Sam would absolutely see patterns like this, and would probably have at least a bit of understanding for Walker's issues.

That's largely why the portrayal of him is fine if Walker does turn out to snap. That leaves Sam as having correctly assessed the situation, and his concerns being validated. Regardless of the details, it portrays him as fairly competent, and his failure to redeem Karli can be written off as circumstances beyond his control/him being a bit too caring, which isn't a failure that makes one at all unheroic. Trying to save even those who can't be saved, well...that's a heroic thing to do. Focusing on "I want the shield" and not "I want to help" is a lot less so.

Without that turn, Sam ends up not portrayed as using that skillset all that well. Hell, he's even resisting going to therapy with Bucky, when a therapist is probably the person least likely to fear therapy. That whole scene ended up feeling a bit forced.

I think lying on the ground on the back and yelling "It wasn't me!" and holding up arms in protection counts as surrender.

Its not surrender. Not specifically. Merely being in a bad situation tactically does not make for surrender, you have to explicitly make an effort to surrender, either verbally or physically. Raising arms above your head probably would be taken as a signal to surrender, where arms in front of you is instead an attempt to block the blow.

That said, it doesn't matter much. There is a difference in being a soldier and being a hero. Even if Walker's actions are, just barely, not a war crime for a soldier....they are deeply unheroic. Even for a soldier, that's fairly extreme, so it generally fits. It's the action of a soldier pushed to the edge, not the action of a hero, and that perfectly fits Walker in that moment.


Also, as an aside, I seriously expected Walker to snap after he tells Karli "Choose your next words very carefully" when talking about Lamar, and she says "I didn't want to kill people who don't matter." Like...dear god, Karli, are you an idiot? I don't know how Karli ended up leading so many people, but her people skills are...not great.

[Psyren]

If she gets results, that would probably offset her poor speech checks. Likely it was her plan that got her comrades the serum, or otherwise out from under the Power Broker's thumb.

And I didn't mean to imply all mental illnesses or responses to trauma function the same, merely that Sam's counselor training is not a magic wand either. Especially when dealing with someone whose personality, emotions, mental state etc. are being influenced not just by very recent trauma, but by literal mind-altering chemicals. His experience dealing with super soldiers is a sample size of one, and super soldiers suffering what appears to be untreated PTSD may well be zero.

[Cikomyr2]

If she gets results, that would probably offset her poor speech checks. Likely it was her plan that got her comrades the serum, or otherwise out from under the Power Broker's thumb.

And I didn't mean to imply all mental illnesses or responses to trauma function the same, merely that Sam's counselor training is not a magic wand either. Especially when dealing with someone whose personality, emotions, mental state etc. are being influenced not just by very recent trauma, but by literal mind-altering chemicals. His experience dealing with super soldiers is a sample size of one, and super soldiers suffering what appears to be untreated PTSD may well be zero.

Also, "why is Sam taking the time to talk to Karli and not to Walker"

here's the explanation: because Karli is the leader of a ground-up movement that has thousands, if not millions of followers among destitute people, who will follow her lead of violence or cooperation. Karli's influence extend beyond Karli.

Walker stopped representing anyone but himself the moment he committed a war crime with Captain America's shield.

[Tyndmyr]

If she gets results, that would probably offset her poor speech checks. Likely it was her plan that got her comrades the serum, or otherwise out from under the Power Broker's thumb.

And I didn't mean to imply all mental illnesses or responses to trauma function the same, merely that Sam's counselor training is not a magic wand either. Especially when dealing with someone whose personality, emotions, mental state etc. are being influenced not just by very recent trauma, but by literal mind-altering chemicals. His experience dealing with super soldiers is a sample size of one, and super soldiers suffering what appears to be untreated PTSD may well be zero.

Nah, he's hung with Cap and Bucky a fair amount, both of whom are super soldiers, he talks with a number of other super soldiers in this show. Also, the specific thing he is shown as counseling is military folks returning from war. It's...fairly explicitly PTSD.

There is probably not a single person on the planet more qualified for this than Sam.

[Cikomyr2]

Nah, he's hung with Cap and Bucky a fair amount, both of whom are super soldiers, he talks with a number of other super soldiers in this show. Also, the specific thing he is shown as counseling is military folks returning from war. It's...fairly explicitly PTSD.

There is probably not a single person on the planet more qualified for this than Sam.

On the other hand, as long as I love the concept of the Street Therapist, Sam might not be the best person to defuse what is effectively a super powered psychotic time bomb that literally just exploded 5 minutes ago.

You can't just therapeuratize someone out of the blues. Especially since Sam had a negative attitude toward Walker right off the bat, and Walker had some level of unhealthy psychological hold regarding Steve Rogers' ex sidekicks.

Come on.. The reason Walker wanted Bucky and Sam on his team was to make himself more legitimate as Captain America.

[Psyren]

Nah, he's hung with Cap and Bucky a fair amount, both of whom are super soldiers, he talks with a number of other super soldiers in this show. Also, the specific thing he is shown as counseling is military folks returning from war. It's...fairly explicitly PTSD.

Sample size of two then - but both of your examples have had the serum for years before even meeting Sam, whereas Walker had taken his mere hours prior and then experienced a huge shock. In addition, Steve was fairly well-adjusted, and Bucky, while certainly quite traumatized, had been through multiple therapy and counseling sessions prior to this show (including his deprogramming in Wakanda), so Sam had a great foundation to work from. Walker had none of that. It's not a good comparison, at all.

There is probably not a single person on the planet more qualified for this than Sam.

Sure, but that doesn't mean he's guaranteed success either, nor that failure in such an extreme situation is unreasonable for the character.

[Tyndmyr]

Also, "why is Sam taking the time to talk to Karli and not to Walker"
...
Walker stopped representing anyone but himself the moment he committed a war crime with Captain America's shield.

That doesn't really explain why Walker wasn't worth talking to for the first several episodes.

Sample size of two then - but both of your examples have had the serum for years before even meeting Sam, whereas Walker had taken his mere hours prior and then experienced a huge shock. In addition, Steve was fairly well-adjusted, and Bucky, while certainly quite traumatized, had been through multiple therapy and counseling sessions prior to this show (including his deprogramming in Wakanda), so Sam had a great foundation to work from. Walker had none of that. It's not a good comparison, at all.

Sure, but that doesn't mean he's guaranteed success either, nor that failure in such an extreme situation is unreasonable for the character.

It's mostly that he doesn't put much effort in to try.

And then Walker comes around to being mostly normal anyways. I could buy "this guy is driven beyond any possible reason" in these circumstances pretty easily, but walk that back, and you end up with a contradiction.

[Cikomyr2]

That doesn't really explain why Walker wasn't worth talking to for the first several episodes.

'cause they morally objected to his existence as the man appointed to take up Captain America's mantle? Not to Johnny Walker himself, but by what he represented.

One was literally anointed by Steve Rogers, but decided instead that Captain America's shield should be in a museum as a symbol to remember, instead of the possibility that he doesn't measure up.

The other idolized Steve Rogers to a somewhat unhealthy level (but with really good reasons), and believed whomever Steve picked was the right person, no questions asked. And this new Captain America was definitely not picked up by Steve.