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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    He isn't innocent. Even if you want to manipulate things to suit that narrivite. Which it doesn't matter if Bucky is in control or not. The Winter Soldier IS guilty. He deserves to die.

  2. - Top - End - #542
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    He isn't innocent. Even if you want to manipulate things to suit that narrivite. Which it doesn't matter if Bucky is in control or not. The Winter Soldier IS guilty. He deserves to die.
    True, but he has a pardon.
    Sure, he broke the rules of the pardon thousands of times, but he has one.

  3. - Top - End - #543
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    He isn't innocent. Even if you want to manipulate things to suit that narrivite. Which it doesn't matter if Bucky is in control or not. The Winter Soldier IS guilty. He deserves to die.
    And he was killed. The deprogramming is killing the Winter Soldier.

    Unless you deprogram him, Bucky is effectively an hostage to the Winter Soldier and you say it's 100% okay to kill the hostage to get rid of the baddies.

    Because it's convenient.

    Because it's faster. Easier.

  4. - Top - End - #544
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    No he couldnít, because at this point in the story the people sent after Bucky had shoot-to-kill orders and Steve knew this. So it was interfere or let an innocent man get gunned down in cold blood. (And yes, innocent, because at this point Steve also knew about the brainwashing.)
    Which is why at that point you assemble a team of Avengers to apprehend Bucky yourself, not to go and maim policemen who don't know about the brainwashing and who have orders that make sense under those circumstances. Not to mention that Steve didn't know Bucky was innocent. He might well have been involved in the bombing. How Steve interfered absolutely matters. He could easily have offered to have the Avengers handle this. He could have helped the police to minimize their casualties. He had several options to deal with this within the system. Instead, he decided to become a criminal himself. It's another point for the Accords. It turns the Avengers into an official group that governments can call on to deal with supernatural threats their police forces are not equipped to handle. But that requires them to take responsibility and be accountable for what they do.
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  5. - Top - End - #545
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    If you have a hostage on a bus that is mowing through streets with no signs of stopping. You don't hesitate to take out the driver to stop it from continuing running over everybody in the street. What Steve did was stop everyone from trying to stop the bus and driver so he could mayybe have a chance to save someone he cared about. How is that not extremely selfish.

  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Steve doesn't care about the shield at all, it's just a tool. When he loses it, he only cares insofar as he has lost a useful tool, he has no issues about using a different one or giving it up. He doesn't have any issues about living up to the shield, he sets it down just to make a point to Batroc at one point.

    The thing about lethal force is, it's whatever the writers say it is. Zemo takes the shield to the side of the head in an earlier scene and is knocked out but otherwise fine. There's no 'the supersoldier will be fine at this level of force' because different people react differently. Walker had no intent to kill anyone, he's defending himself from people trying to violently rob him. Maybe he's aiming for a knockout, who knows?
    "Whatever the writers say it is?" Were you even watching that scene?
    John repeatedly pummeled that guy into hamburger! It wasn't just one clean hit, and the intent was not to incapacitate or capture. They didn't even show the guy's head when John was done, and I have no doubt that was intentional. How that can be compared to one toss in an earlier scene by a non-powered John makes no sense whatsoever to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    Bucky wasn't some innocent person who just got framed. Bucky already was a wante criminal and terrorist, due to his actions in Winter Soldier, as well as previous crimes going back decades. Since Bucky is a superpowered indivdual, it would have been Steve's duty as an Avenger to go and apprehend Bucky. If he suspected foul play, he could then have worked within the system to clear Bucky's name where the attack on the UN was concerned.
    He DID apprehend Bucky - or at least allow him to be apprehended. He simply did so AFTER stopping the kill squad that was trying to execute him on sight for a crime he didn't commit. That was the right thing to do (see below).

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    At this point, Steve Rogers is a criminal and should be treated as such.
    Yes, by keeping the kill squad from murdering his friend for a crime he didn't commit, Steve was technically aiding and abetting a fugitive. But even putting their friendship aside, Bucky is also the best lead they have on the actual terrorist (since they clearly took the time to frame Bucky specifically) so saving his life has practical concerns beyond just looking out for a friend. This kind of shortsighted thinking is very typical of Ross. And it gets even better if you consider that Sharon herself may have been responsible for leaking the photo that triggered Bucky's manhunt. It won't surprise me if they reveal she's been working with Zemo since Civil War, if not before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    If you have a hostage on a bus that is mowing through streets with no signs of stopping. You don't hesitate to take out the driver to stop it from continuing running over everybody in the street. What Steve did was stop everyone from trying to stop the bus and driver so he could mayybe have a chance to save someone he cared about. How is that not extremely selfish.
    Except Bucky wasn't the driver, and Steve knew that. Bad analogy is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  7. - Top - End - #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1982 View Post
    Isn't that kind of normal for earning a MoH? I mean unless there was some serious ### going down getting through the event would not be worth being awarded a MoH for. I'a assume most recipients would rather not having been through the events that earned them their MoH if given the choice.
    Yes. This is less subtext, and more just "taken for granted." All MoHs are given out for extreme circumstances. A third of them are given posthumously. The most anyone has ever received an MoH has been twice, back in WW2, and nowadays, you cannot receive more than one, so it's not something that could happen in our world.

    I see it as sort of akin to the "I have six PhDs" method of describing someone as smart. A little implausible, but clearly intended to be an extreme example.

    I do agree that Falcon does come onto Walker pretty hard initially. I think this is part of the problem with no real villains...we're being set up to see Walker as a villain, kind of. If he were fully villainous, then Falcon's initial distrust of him would come off more as a good read of character. The subversion of Walker's role also subverts Falcon's heroism. Why is he so bent on saving Karli, but doesn't have any sympathy for Walker and Lamar, who are honestly not all that bad of guys?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    I love this immunity people give Steve when he literally put the world at risk to save his friend. Selfishly. Steve does a whole lot of questionable stuff, yet just because of plot armor. It all works our in the end. Real "ends justify the means" guys.
    Heroism as it is generally portrayed does include loyalty to one's friends, and generally does not include accepting trading lives of others off for the greater good. Even if the latter is more practical. Heroism and practicality are not really the same thing.

    Hell, Walker killing the Flag Smasher could be argued as perhaps legal and practical...but it's definitely not heroic. In the same way, just letting Bucky die might have been practical for Steve...but it would not have been heroic.

    One might argue that Thor's hammer defines worthiness in a similar fashion. Only someone acting like that kind of hero is really worthy. It'd largely fit with what we know of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Getting punched by Bucky's vibranium arm is pretty lethal. Getting thrown into that forklift is pretty lethal.

    Walker doesn't want to fight at all, he's trying to get them to back off. 'Why are you making me do this' They attack him. If he wanted to use lethal force, why not use his gun?

    They want the shield, so they beat him to get it, deliberately break his arm, and then walk away and leave him on the ground injured and helpless.

    That ain't no arrest.
    I would concur. They won the fight. If they'd been after an arrest, they could have done that. They weren't, though, which makes the scene feel a little odd. They're just after the shield. That does come across as...a little selfish.

    I suspect the writers were fixated on setting up FalconCap, and didn't really think through the ramifications of getting the ducks in a row at this point. Just looting the shield and leaving him there seems odd otherwise.

  8. - Top - End - #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    If you have a hostage on a bus that is mowing through streets with no signs of stopping. You don't hesitate to take out the driver to stop it from continuing running over everybody in the street. What Steve did was stop everyone from trying to stop the bus and driver so he could mayybe have a chance to save someone he cared about. How is that not extremely selfish.
    Because there was no bus mowing through the street. You just made up an entire hypothetical justification to justify murder.

  9. - Top - End - #549
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    Which is why at that point you assemble a team of Avengers to apprehend Bucky yourself, not to go and maim policemen who don't know about the brainwashing and who have orders that make sense under those circumstances. Not to mention that Steve didn't know Bucky was innocent. He might well have been involved in the bombing. How Steve interfered absolutely matters.
    You mean the Avengers that had just signed the Accords agreeing to sit on their hands and do nothing until they were told to by the UN? Those Avengers?

    And Steve did know albeit for the wrong reasons. Recall, Crossbones told Steve that Hydra had put Buckyís brain Ďback in the blenderí. Turns out Crossbones was wrong/lying to mess with Steve, but at this point Steve has reason to believe he is 1.) brainwashed again and 2.) Steve himself is the only person who has managed to break through Buckyís programming as far as Steve knows. And again, the shoot to kill orders. Imagine if Bucky had actually been in full Winter Soldier mode when those guys started shooting? If they didnít kill the Winter Soldier, heíd have killed all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I do agree that Falcon does come onto Walker pretty hard initially. I think this is part of the problem with no real villains...we're being set up to see Walker as a villain, kind of. If he were fully villainous, then Falcon's initial distrust of him would come off more as a good read of character. The subversion of Walker's role also subverts Falcon's heroism. Why is he so bent on saving Karli, but doesn't have any sympathy for Walker and Lamar, who are honestly not all that bad of guys?
    Second this.

    Yeah, Sam, I understand youíre upset but 1.) youíre also a professional adult and 2.) itís wildly unlikely Walker convinced the government bigwigs to take the shield out of the museum just to give it to him, because the chain of command does not work that way. If you want to take out your irritation on someone, take it out on the bigwigs who gave away the shield, not the the guy they assigned to carry it. This is even worse when you consider that Samís a councilor/therapist/whatever his official title in the support group was - Sam your whole schtick is talking out problems, why arenít you talking them out now?!!

  10. - Top - End - #550
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Except it is you ability to understand analogies that is bad. The bus in this situation is Becky's body. Winter soldier is the one driving it around hitting people, and killing them. Not to mention he is killing good people and leaders that could change the world for good. Not just other criminals. Besides it isn't the point that bucky should have been stopped. The thing is its also HEROIC to stand up to your friends and stop them from doing bad things.. that's 10 points. Cap is selfishly enabling wrong doing in the slim hopes Bucky could be save.. not even asking if he should have been.

  11. - Top - End - #551
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post



    I would concur. They won the fight. If they'd been after an arrest, they could have done that. They weren't, though, which makes the scene feel a little odd. They're just after the shield. That does come across as...a little selfish.

    I suspect the writers were fixated on setting up FalconCap, and didn't really think through the ramifications of getting the ducks in a row at this point. Just looting the shield and leaving him there seems odd otherwise.
    The scene just imprints the image that they are bullies to me.

    Maybe it wasn't intentional imagery, but that is hat it felt like. Just mugging him. No real accountability as purpose that was just talk.
    Walker was right that that as what it was about.
    Heck, if you remember, Bucky said, "That is what this is about" in response.
    Was that supposed to be sarcasm or truth?

    And remember, Walker managed to not only arrange for Falcon and Buckyís release from jail, but also put an end to Bucky's court mandate so he can get back into action. Bucky owes Walker, but Bucky never shows any thanks.

  12. - Top - End - #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    Except it is you ability to understand analogies that is bad. The bus in this situation is Becky's body. Winter soldier is the one driving it around hitting people, and killing them. Not to mention he is killing good people and leaders that could change the world for good. Not just other criminals. Besides it isn't the point that bucky should have been stopped. The thing is its also HEROIC to stand up to your friends and stop them from doing bad things.. that's 10 points. Cap is selfishly enabling wrong doing in the slim hopes Bucky could be save.. not even asking if he should have been.
    He's literally not driving. That's what brainwashing means.

    And in Civil War, they were trying to murder him, not merely arrest him. It was only because Steve intervened that Bucky was able to live long enough to be incarcerated, without which the real killer (Zemo) would have gotten off scot-free.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  13. - Top - End - #553
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Getting punched by Bucky's vibranium arm is pretty lethal. Getting thrown into that forklift is pretty lethal.

    Walker doesn't want to fight at all, he's trying to get them to back off. 'Why are you making me do this' They attack him. If he wanted to use lethal force, why not use his gun?

    They want the shield, so they beat him to get it, deliberately break his arm, and then walk away and leave him on the ground injured and helpless.

    That ain't no arrest.
    They knock walker out, Bucky walks out of the room while Sam stares at the shield, then cut to black. Next time we see Walker, he's being escorted to a GRC tribunal. Maybe after the cut to black, both Sam and Bucky leave Walker alone in a warehouse and he crawls for help hours later. Or maybe they stayed and called someone to pick him up, and we don't see that because it isn't interesting.

  14. - Top - End - #554
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    He isn't innocent. Even if you want to manipulate things to suit that narrivite. Which it doesn't matter if Bucky is in control or not. The Winter Soldier IS guilty. He deserves to die.
    Says who?

    This is literally a point of disagreement between different people. Why are we prioritizing your opinion? Tell me why should I abandon my values and adopt your own.
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  15. - Top - End - #555
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    Except it is you ability to understand analogies that is bad. The bus in this situation is Becky's body. Winter soldier is the one driving it around hitting people, and killing them. Not to mention he is killing good people and leaders that could change the world for good. Not just other criminals. Besides it isn't the point that bucky should have been stopped. The thing is its also HEROIC to stand up to your friends and stop them from doing bad things.. that's 10 points. Cap is selfishly enabling wrong doing in the slim hopes Bucky could be save.. not even asking if he should have been.
    What?

    Steve tried to stop Bucky at every chance he had. the choices are not a binary between "kill Bucky" and "enable the Winter Soldier's killings".

    the Winter Soldier has a long track record of murder and assassination. But unless you can point out to evidence that after Hydra was brought down that the Winter Soldier was still an active agent, Steve had no reason to believe that Bucky was an immediate danger to anyone he isn't actively engaging.

    Bucky was a victim hijacked by the Winter Soldier. Steve did his very best to minimize the amount of damage both Bucky and the Winter Soldier did while fighting. There's even a combat beat that actually spell out that Steve is expecting Bucky to behave even against the policemen coming against him to kill him.

    And he did. Once Cap did his diplomancy on Bucky, the man with the iron arm did not kill a single person while he was in control.

  16. - Top - End - #556
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf
    He isn't innocent. Even if you want to manipulate things to suit that narrivite. Which it doesn't matter if Bucky is in control or not. The Winter Soldier IS guilty. He deserves to die.
    {Scrubbed}

    If a random person was walking through a mall and someone from 1000 miles away mind controlled them to go over and stab someone, I guess in your morality, that person deserves to die. Got it.

    Because that, fundamentally, is what happened with Winter Soldier to Bucky. You can't even equate him with normal special op soldiers. THEY choose to sign up for what they do, and even when ordered to assassinate someone, THEY have the ability to say NO.

    Bucky didn't choose to be the winter soldier.
    Bucky never had the option or ability to say no.

    The person or persons responsible for the crimes of the winter soldier are the person or persons who kidnapped him, brainwashed him, and gave him his orders. Bucky was literally and unequivocally a tool.

    "A Winter Soldier doesn't kill people, someone in control of the Winter Soldier kills people."

    I mean, even in your arguments you seem to understand there is a difference between Bucky and "The Winter Soldier" but for some reason you want to then punish/kill Bucky once he's no longer the Winter Soldier.

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-05-05 at 09:29 AM. Reason: Scrubbed

  17. - Top - End - #557
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    Nonono. That's not how the action scene framed that. Walker had Wilson down and vulnerable. Walker explicitly takes a haymaker swing with the shield at Wilson's head, and either Wilson uses his jetpack to get out of the way or Bucky intervenes.

    Either way, this was framed as "Walker would have killed/crippled him right here and there for wanting the shield back"
    For wanting the shield back? No. He's defending himself from attackers, and in the heat of battle making unfortunate decisions. He doesn't want to kill them, he's unhappy that they're fighting at all.

    They're trying to frame it your way, but it's not done well. They very obviously have other priorities.

    "Whatever the writers say it is?" Were you even watching that scene?
    John repeatedly pummeled that guy into hamburger! It wasn't just one clean hit, and the intent was not to incapacitate or capture. They didn't even show the guy's head when John was done, and I have no doubt that was intentional. How that can be compared to one toss in an earlier scene by a non-powered John makes no sense whatsoever to me.
    I'm talking about the Falcon fight.

    They knock walker out, Bucky walks out of the room while Sam stares at the shield, then cut to black. Next time we see Walker, he's being escorted to a GRC tribunal. Maybe after the cut to black, both Sam and Bucky leave Walker alone in a warehouse and he crawls for help hours later. Or maybe they stayed and called someone to pick him up, and we don't see that because it isn't interesting.
    Bucky walks away, Falcon cradles the shield, no one checks if Walker is okay or shows him any due care. That's not you arrest someone.

    If the Civil War police had shoot to kill orders, why didn't they kill him after they all surrendered?
    Last edited by Sapphire Guard; 2021-05-03 at 05:12 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    For wanting the shield back? No. He's defending himself from attackers, and in the heat of battle making unfortunate decisions. He doesn't want to kill them, he's unhappy that they're fighting at all.

    They're trying to frame it your way, but it's not done well. They very obviously have other priorities.
    Bucky and Sam wouldn't have to fight him if he had surrendered the bloody shield

    And bloody is not an idiom in this case.

    Walker decided to make a fight of it. And then Walker decided to make that fight lethal.

    He escalated at every turn. And that's Walker's bloody problem. He escalates any conflicts he gets involved in. He got a taste of his own medecine against the Dora Milaje, and instead of taking a good look in the mirror to see why he wasn't living up to Captain America's legacy, he decided to escalate.

  19. - Top - End - #559
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    If your response to someone not handing over their property to you is to beat them up and take it, you don't have the moral high ground.

    The Dora Milaje open by throwing a spear at his face, attempted murder (for no reason, he wants Zemo captured just like them), but he chalks it up to a misunderstanding and still tries to talk them down.

  20. - Top - End - #560
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I'm talking about the Falcon fight.
    Okay:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The thing about lethal force is, it's whatever the writers say it is. Zemo takes the shield to the side of the head in an earlier scene and is knocked out but otherwise fine. There's no 'the supersoldier will be fine at this level of force' because different people react differently. Walker had no intent to kill anyone, he's defending himself from people trying to violently rob him. Maybe he's aiming for a knockout, who knows?
    You bring up a completely irrelevant comparison (unpowered John hitting Zemo once to incapacitate him, to powered John actively trying to murder unpowered Sam), then you say Walker may have been "aiming for a knockout" which requires a frankly ridiculous interpretation of the fight scene. And all so he can keep his hands on a murder weapon that he is all but pathologically attached to. We can't even be sure that, had they not forcibly separated him from the shield and incapacitated him, he would have even bothered turning himself in for what he did. Given what we saw of his mental state at the time, chances are pretty high that he would have just gone into hiding with the government's property. He's clearly shown he's not above lying to try and maintain his prestige.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    If your response to someone not handing over their property to you is to beat them up and take it, you don't have the moral high ground.
    Not only is it *not* his property, it is an extremely deadly weapon in the hands of a very unstable individual. Separating him from by force is absolutely a justifiable act.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  21. - Top - End - #561
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    If your response to someone not handing over their property to you is to beat them up and take it, you don't have the moral high ground.

    The Dora Milaje open by throwing a spear at his face, attempted murder (for no reason, he wants Zemo captured just like them), but he chalks it up to a misunderstanding and still tries to talk them down.
    The Dola Milaje aren't trying to be Captain America.

  22. - Top - End - #562
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    If your response to someone not handing over their property to you is to beat them up and take it, you don't have the moral high ground.

    The Dora Milaje open by throwing a spear at his face, attempted murder (for no reason, he wants Zemo captured just like them), but he chalks it up to a misunderstanding and still tries to talk them down.
    If the Dora Milaje wanted him dead they would not have thrown the spear the way they did. She did not miss, she was sending a message to Walker, about their skill, and how he should take them seriously.

    Walker of course is bad at language and thus could not read the room or how over the head he was.
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  23. - Top - End - #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    If the Dora Milaje wanted him dead they would not have thrown the spear the way they did. She did not miss, she was sending a message to Walker, about their skill, and how he should take them seriously.

    Walker of course is bad at language and thus could not read the room or how over the head he was.
    On one level, yes. It's clearly basically a 'shock and awe' tactic, overawe someone who isn't taking you seriously.

    Except...that hasn't happened yet. As far as we know John and the Dora Milaje have never interacted and apparently they have no intelligence on what's happening in the room (or why are they reacting like this?). So throwing a spear towards John risks turning the entire thing into a bloodbath for no reason at all. Not even the 'he touched my shoulder condescendingly' thing which starts the actual fight, but hasn't happened yet.

    Now, this isn't necessarily out of character. They are elite soldiers, in a foreign land to kidnap someone who dishonored and humiliated them. Deciding to go in incredibly heavy isn't crazy.

    But then they start a fight with the guy who is agreeing with them on what should be done with Zemo and, despite absolutely dominating the fight, they lose Zemo.

    Again, not necessarily out of character. They are elite bodyguards and hand-to-hand fighters, not kidnapping specialists. But the end result, despite kicking all kinds of ass, is total mission failure. They antagonized and attacked potential allies and lost their target.

    And that's without getting into the trying to kill John and Lemar thing. Though I agree the initial thrown spear wasn't intended for that, when Bucky and Sam get involved it's because the Dora Milaje are in the process of stabbing those two in very vital places.

    And finally, shock and awe is maybe a good tactic to use against an enemy to prompt them to cease resistance. Using it against someone who isn't an enemy (as John and Lemar weren't at that point) had a real risk of backfiring. If they hadn't been so fixated on 'let's be heroes' and instead had reacted like soldiers, they would have instantly drawn guns and been firing and there would be dead people. Them, or the Dora Milaje.

  24. - Top - End - #564
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Agreed with most of that ecarden , going to have dinner, a drink, and chill. Will watch some clips before I respond even though I agree with 80% of it already
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  25. - Top - End - #565
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Agreed with most of that ecarden , going to have dinner, a drink, and chill. Will watch some clips before I respond even though I agree with 80% of it already
    I look forward to it. I did go back and rewatch and the first strike is a little ambiguous. John appears to move out of the way, but it's hard to tell from the angle whether it would have missed regardless. I think so, given the later throw that pins the shield to the table, but they definitely appear to be about to shish-ka-bob John and Lemar both. Maybe they were going for more shock and awe? Stop the spear while touching the throat? If so, that backfired badly, forcing Bucky and Sam into the fight.

    The best argument for the initial throw I can see is that John was getting aggressive with Sam and Bucky, which the first Dora Milaje might have witnessed/heard?

    But if she heard that she should have either heard him say Zemo needed to be turned over, or seen Zemo (who is their target and ought to be the absolute center of their attention) physically sheltering behind Sam and Bucky. My read is that this is a place where narrative won over character motivation, which is unfortunate.

    But at the point when they decided the Dora Milaje were dumping him at the Raft instead of taking him back to Wakanda, all reason for them and John to fight vanish, so we're stuck with a scene that makes the Dora Milaje look like very aggressive idiots and Sam/Bucky look like very careless warden's of the mass murderer they've been palling around with.

    If they wanted him in Wakanda, then you've got an immediate three way melee, with each side fighting over Zemo and his escape becomes (at least to me) a lot more reasonable.

    Also, just tactically, Zemo is a threat they should actually respect, given how effectively he eluded their security precautions and Black Panther for so long (disregarding everything else). The notion that the first Dora Milaje in the room disarms herself in order to intimidate John is...odd. And actually overstates his importance to the Dora Milaje/Wakanda in a weird way given what we see next. I could see it if she tossed the spear to kill/incapacitate Zemo, but John?

    Honestly, the best in-character explanation I can come up with is that some of the Dora Milaje wanted the fight for reasons of honor/pride (or maybe larger geopolitical motivations? Hard to know what's going on with Wakanda). Even though John is nobody in particular, he's the heir to the title of Captain America. Given their history with Black Panther and Killmonger and the respect for Steve which they historically had, it's not crazy to believe they were either testing John for whether he was a worthy heir, or attempting to remove one they deemed unworthy on their own judgment?

    I actually sort of like that argument, though I'd have expected them to take the shield then.

    ETA: Of course, a more individualized, less grand narrative theory would also be possible. If the first Dora Milaje was one who knew Sam/Bucky during their exile and was snapped, then she might have simply reacted seeing a stranger threaten a friend/ally, leaving the rest stuck in an overly aggressive posture.

    The more I try to come up with an explanation the less the actual scene bothers me. Though the broader reaction (I believe non GITP forum, but it's a long thread and it all blends together with other stuff I've read) does bug me a bit as I don't actually find aggressive murderous failure all that impressive/badass. And besides challenging Sam to a fight, Walker is actually at his most defensible here. Zemo is fairly useless at this point. He's gone rogue and tried to kill Karli (which Sam/Bucky are still opposed to, right?) and is all out of leads. The fact that he was useful isn't actually a reason to keep him out if he has no more leads...which he doesn't as we know because he just runs off to the memorial and as our heroes should know as he doesn't pull out some reason they should keep him out, unlike the last time they were told to turn him over.

    Of course, that also raises a question of, if John wanted to bring in Zemo, why didn't he just do it when he'd knocked the man unconscious? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the amount of time involved, or misremembering, or he got a call from someone yelling at him about not producing results and we just don't see it, but it seems weird to me.
    Last edited by ecarden; 2021-05-03 at 09:54 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #566
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    It will likely be tomorrow. Rewatched the scene and it reconfirm my feels and new info. Will type it out later for ... a podcast of mine just dropped and they are going to talk about this show.

    Not going to link it even though I am eagerly excited for it will be a little too political for this board

    (20 mins into the podcast and the show now makes sense when I look at some of the earlier stuff the EP did, that in the end was not released for HBO canceled the project.)
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-05-03 at 10:31 PM.
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    I do think the DM went overboard in that scene (obviously so, since they got so caught up in ass-kicking that they let their quarry escape.) However, I disagree that any of those thrusts were truly going to be lethal or debilitating. The spear toss that pinned Walker and his shield to the table was too precise to be the result of passion or chance, and I think all their stabs were similarly intended to stop Walker and Hoskins from intervening without killing them.

    Would I have preferred that they aimed the pointy bits away from the other characters entirely, absolutely - but the main purpose of that scene was to increase Walker's feelings of inadequacy to a breaking point where he would decide to take the serum regardless of any potential consequences, and to allow Zemo to escape custody.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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  28. - Top - End - #568
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Bucky and Sam wouldn't have to fight him if he had surrendered the [b] bloody shield[/b
    Bucky and Sam had no right to demand that. It's up to Walker's superiors to decide what to do once Walker reports back to base

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    Quote Originally Posted by M1982 View Post
    Bucky and Sam had no right to demand that. It's up to Walker's superiors to decide what to do once Walker reports back to base
    That's a legal argument, not an ethical argument.

    You guys seem really hung up on defending War Criminal John Walker based on a legal technicality.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Excellent posts ecarden!

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