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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    See, I think they acting on their own.
    Dora Milaje want revenge because their job is the king's safety. They failed. No one but them blame them, but doesn't change anything. This is personal.
    ...did anyone else consider the possibility that this is how theyíre going to write TíChalla out? The Dora Milaje are too busy chasing down Zemo to protect him so he gets killed?

  2. - Top - End - #302
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    ...did anyone else consider the possibility that this is how theyíre going to write TíChalla out? The Dora Milaje are too busy chasing down Zemo to protect him so he gets killed?
    That would be thematic, but I think we established that Black Panther can defend itself quite effectively.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    The definition of "metahuman" for the Sokovia Accords seems to cover anyone operating at enhanced levels. It covers Hawkeye, who is just a guy with a bow. It covers Iron man who is just a guy in a suit. It covered Falcon who is just a guy using what was described as standard U.S. paratrooper technology in CA2. I can't see any reason why it would cover Iron Man and his suit and Hawkeye and his trick arrows and Falcon and his wings, but not the Dora Milaje with their enhanced fighting skills and technoweaponry.
    I'm not so sure they cover Hawkeye, or if they do, it's not for the reason you're implying. He's using tech that comes from SHIELD, which in turn comes from their study of alien technology; his principal violation of them consisted of essentially stealing that tech to aid Cap, a known metahuman fugitive at the time, rather than any qualities inherent to Hawkeye himself. As for Tony - even if we don't think his implant(s) make him metahuman, every suit he crafted after IM2 was also the result of him studying alien technology (Chitauri leavings, the Mindstone, etc) so covering him too is reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    Of course, we could just agree that the Sokovia Accords are terribly defined, make zero practical sense, and shouldn't be used by anyone in any internet argument to try and prove a point.
    Oh I'm not defending them either, I just think that Wakanda's interference in Latvia by their elite wetwork squad is probably covered by much more basic forms of international law. The Accords don't need to be invoked every time someone in a funny outfit is operating in another country, that's all I was reacting to.

    With that said, I do think the MCU is overall better with them than without - it basically gives the writers license to send SHIELD and SWORD, agencies based in the USA, anywhere without an international incident by nominally having one (albeit vague) rule that most other countries agreed to follow. In addition, the Accords will probably come up even more prominently when we start dealing with sovereign nations that have every reason to flout them like Latveria and Genosha.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-04-13 at 10:09 AM.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Wow! Well, I liked the trailer. I mean, this movie will have a lot of drive and will be expensive as Marvel can do. I like Falcon, he s cool guy in Marvel universe. What do you think about?
    Last edited by Disibii; 2021-04-13 at 12:17 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #305
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Disibii View Post
    Wow! Well, I liked the trailer. I mean, this movie will have a lot of drive and will be expensive as Marvel can do. I like Falcon, he s cool guy in Marvel universe. What do you think about?
    Wrong thread?

  6. - Top - End - #306
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Overall another good episode, though leaning more on the deep conversations than the action.



    Spoiler: Truth and Consequences
    Show
    I like that we have consequences for actions here, and thereís no attempt by anyone to paper over what John Walker has done. Even though he lost control, and on some level he knows it, he still manages to be almost sympathetic.

    óUntil he outright lies to Lemarís parents, which only drives him that much further down. Whatever private vows of vengeance he may have taken, thereís no justification for that.

    And now heís going to walk into the fray with a homemade shield? At least we can expect a Cap vs. Cap showdown in New York...although, to quote Loki, it may be glorious but not lengthy.


    Spoiler: Power Broker
    Show
    Okay, fine, itís Sharon.

    Urf. But at least we get more Batroc, which is great. Marvel has legions of lesser-known villains to draw on, and Iím glad theyíre making Batroc a consistent mid-level threat.

    Speaking of which, I feel like we should know who this Contessa Val person is, but I'm drawing a blank. Props if she's actually the Power Broker, but they've spent too much time setting up Sharon for that.


    Spoiler: Not With A Bang, But A Whimper
    Show
    Zemo really went out on a fizzle there. Given his strong presence and buildup in previous episodes, it feels like a letdown for him to just give the puppy-eyes and let people nearly shoot him. Youíd think a brilliant, wealthy mastermind would have a better plan than hoping Buckyís moral evolution has progressed far enough not to pull the trigger. Or at least not to do it with a loaded gun.

    And why would Bucky go through all the drama of nearly shooting him? Was he just walking around holding the bullets in his metal hand? Itís all very dramatic, but hardly seems practical. If someone else shows up with bad intentions, Buckyís just limited himself severely. He should know better than to go style over substance.


    Spoiler: Wakanda & International Law
    Show
    So, not taking Zemo back to Wakanda was a genuine surprise for me.

    Even more so is that theyíre taking him to the Raft, of all places. Iím surprised that thing is still operational, given that it couldnít keep a guy with a beard from rescuing three other guys who need suits and gear to do their super-stuff.

    Also, if Wakanda is dumping people on the Raft, are they signatory to some international treaty that allows them to use the Raft as their offshore holding facility? I had the impression that the Raft was US government property, given how Secretary Ross was stomping around the place.

    The more interesting possibility is that the Raft was abandoned for the ridiculously overengineered money pit that it is, but Wakanda has taken it over and is using it for their own purposes. Thatís a much more interesting concept to me, but I doubt thatíll be the approach taken here.


    Spoiler: Start With One
    Show
    Interesting talk between Bucky and Sam, and it shows Sam putting some of his non-combat training to good use. Also a good equilbrium between the two, absolutely refusing to call each other friends.

    Also, mildly amusing that Bucky is turning on the charm with his not-buddyís sister. A nice echo of the shameless cad that Bucky used to be, long and long ago.


    Spoiler: Grounded
    Show
    I know that Samís entire arc is about his becoming the next Captain America, but I canít help but feel disappointed that heís leaving the wings behind. Thinking in particular about how many times heís caught Captain America while falling to certain doom, or given Cap a ride, or just generally been useful flying with great speed and precision.

    Iíd much rather be soaring through the clouds than bouncing a metal frisbee off some tree trunks, but takes all types, I guess.
    Last edited by Palanan; 2021-04-16 at 09:59 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler: Not With A Bang, But A Whimper
    Show
    Zemo really went out on a fizzle there. Given his strong presence and buildup in previous episodes, it feels like a letdown for him to just give the puppy-eyes and let people nearly shoot him. Youíd think a brilliant, wealthy mastermind would have a better plan than hoping Buckyís moral evolution has progressed far enough.

    And why would Bucky go through all the drama of nearly shooting him? Was he just walking around holding the bullets in his metal hand? Itís all very dramatic, but hardly seems practical. If someone else shows up with bad intentions, Buckyís just limited himself severely. He should know better than to go style over substance.
    Spoiler
    Show

    I feel like we can't be done with Zemo. He escapes...just to go wait at the memorial until he's recaptured?

    That doesn't feel right. I feel like he set something in motion before turning himself in. Potentially whatever scheme Sharon and Batroc are hatching. Easy answer is that The weapons Batroc brought to new york contain trackers, since a big deal has been made about how hard it is to find the Flag Smashers.


    That, or they just didn't have anything else to do with him and decided to write him out. Could be either, next episode is likely to be a big enough Spectacle that they could hide that Zemo just kind of...broke out so he could turn himself in.



    Spoiler: Wakanda & International Law
    Show
    So, not taking Zemo back to Wakanda was a genuine surprise for me.

    Even more so is that theyíre taking him to the Raft, of all places. Iím surprised that thing is still operational, given that it couldnít keep a guy with a beard from rescuing three other guys who need suits and gear to do their super-stuff.

    Also, if Wakanda is dumping people on the Raft, are they signatory to some international treaty that allows them to use the Raft as their offshore holding facility? I had the impression that the Raft was US government property, given how Secretary Ross was stomping around the place.

    The more interesting possibility is that the Raft was abandoned for the ridiculously overengineered money pit that it is, but Wakanda has taken it over and is using it for their own purposes. Thatís a much more interesting concept to me, but I doubt thatíll be the approach taken here.
    Spoiler
    Show

    If the US is running the raft, Wakanda could probably Extradite Zemo. If they hand him over, the Americans will take him. He's a wanted international criminal. It's not just Wakanda that wants him in Jail.



    Spoiler: The GRC
    Show

    The classic thing to do with villains like the Flag Smashers is "They had good intentions, but they WENT TOO FAR!"


    But, like, here we have the GRC being pretty cartoonishly evil, talking about forcibly relocating people and shouting about "We have the troops in place".

    I have trouble seeing the Flag Smashers coming out of this as unambiguous villains.
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-04-16 at 10:06 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #308
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler: Power Broker
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    Okay, fine, itís Sharon.

    Urf. But at least we get more Batroc, which is great. Marvel has legions of lesser-known villains to draw on, and Iím glad theyíre making Batroc a consistent mid-level threat.

    Speaking of which, I feel like we should know who this Contessa Val person is, but I'm drawing a blank. Props if she's actually the Power Broker, but they've spent too much time setting up Sharon for that.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Contessa Valentina Allegra de la Fontaine, also known as Valentina de Santis, is a high ranking member of HYDRA who infiltrates the upper levels of SHIELD. She's also one of the Red Skull's daughters, so her being the Power Broker would be entirely suitable and appropriate as a nemesis of the new Captain America/s.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2021-04-16 at 10:04 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Contessa Valentina Allegra de la Fontaine, also known as Valentina de Santis, is a high ranking member of HYDRA who infiltrates the upper levels of SHIELD. She's also one of the Red Skull's daughters, so her being the Power Broker would be entirely suitable and appropriate as a nemesis of the new Captain America/s.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I feel like its notable that the "red skull's daughter and Hydra affiliation" are 11th hour additions to the character made for shock value, in a period where comics are defined by ignoring prior characterization and continuity for the sake of shock, who spent most of her existence as a loyal, trustworthy and notable member of shield, one time rising to leader, and often times lover of Nick Fury. As likely to be ignored as included in her MU version and as likely to be ignored as included by future writers in the comic book universe.
    Last edited by Gallowglass; 2021-04-16 at 10:37 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #310
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Originally Posted by BRC
    Spoiler
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    I feel like we can't be done with Zemo. He escapes...just to go wait at the memorial until he's recaptured?

    That doesn't feel right. I feel like he set something in motion before turning himself in.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Agreed, and I hope he bears out his villainous promise.

    It would be great if he returned in Black Panther 2 and/or the Wakanda series, since heís one of the better villains in the MCU thus far.


    Originally Posted by BRC
    Spoiler
    Show
    But, like, here we have the GRC being pretty cartoonishly evil, talking about forcibly relocating people and shouting about "We have the troops in place".
    Spoiler
    Show
    Well, one person is frothing, but everyone else was opposing him. The question is whether the GRC is a puppet council controlled by the US, or if thereís actual democratic process going on.


    Originally Posted by BRC
    Spoiler
    Show
    I have trouble seeing the Flag Smashers coming out of this as unambiguous villains.
    Spoiler
    Show
    They never really were, since they started out boosting vaccines and other supplies. Theyíve shown themselves more capable of real heroism than some of the supposed heroes.

    Karli is pretty far gone at this point, but I can see the movement splintering once she publicly takes things too far.

    Also, it seems likely she pinged her supporters in New York specifically to draw out all the super-types for a public showdown. She wants to destroy Capís shield, so sheíll do what she can to get that chance.


    Originally Posted by Wraith
    Spoiler
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    Contessa Valentina Allegra de la Fontaine, also known as Valentina de Santis, is a high ranking member of HYDRA who infiltrates the upper levels of SHIELD.
    Spoiler
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    One can only hope she has more of a role, although that purple hair has to go.

    Maybe setting her up as an antagonist for Season Two, if that ever happens.
    Last edited by Palanan; 2021-04-16 at 10:43 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler
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    They never really were, since they started out boosting vaccines and other supplies. Theyíve shown themselves more capable of real heroism than some of the supposed heroes.

    Karli is pretty far gone at this point, but I can see the movement splintering once she publicly takes things too far.

    Also, it seems likely she pinged her supporters in New York specifically to draw out all the super-types for a public showdown. She wants to destroy Capís shield, so sheíll do what she can to get that chance.
    Spoiler
    Show

    I mean,

    So, the pattern with these sorts of characters (Which, like, Walker is following to a T) is

    step 1) We are Antagonists/potential allies. Our motivations are good, and we're actually pretty reasonable. Maybe we could work together?

    Step 2) Something occurs, and the possibility of reconciliation or working together goes out the window. Usually this is something that radicalizes the villain.

    Step 3) The villain is now an unambiguous evil, and, tragically, must be stopped. The Hero punches them while saying "This isn't the way to do this!" and the villain shouts "IT'S THE ONLY WAY THAT WORKS!"


    In the standard pattern, it wouldn't be necessary to paint the GRC as evil, because by this point in the arc, the Flag Smashers are supposed to be full-villain scary, and we're supposed to be cheering for their defeat. In the standard pattern, the GRC would be, sure, maybe mildly assholish, but well-intentioned and trying to do good work.

    Instead, most of the talking at the GRC meeting is the guy talking about how much he wants troops to start rounding up and deporting refugees. The implication from that scene seems to be that, despite the objections, the GRC is about to vote in his favor (As we havn't really gotten any sense of the politics within the GRC, so when this guy does all the talking, we have no reason to think he's a crazed loner).

    Which kind of puts the Flag-Smasher's imminent attack in a heroic light.
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-04-16 at 11:02 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #312
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Spoiler
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    I mean,

    So, the pattern with these sorts of characters (Which, like, Walker is following to a T) is

    step 1) We are Antagonists/potential allies. Our motivations are good, and we're actually pretty reasonable. Maybe we could work together?

    Step 2) Something occurs, and the possibility of reconciliation or working together goes out the window. Usually this is something that radicalizes the villain.

    Step 3) The villain is now an unambiguous evil, and, tragically, must be stopped. The Hero punches them while saying "This isn't the way to do this!" and the villain shouts "IT'S THE ONLY WAY THAT WORKS!"


    In the standard pattern, it wouldn't be necessary to paint the GRC as evil, because by this point in the arc, the Flag Smashers are supposed to be full-villain scary, and we're supposed to be cheering for their defeat. In the standard pattern, the GRC would be, sure, maybe mildly assholish, but well-intentioned and trying to do good work.

    Instead, most of the talking at the GRC meeting is the guy talking about how much he wants troops to start rounding up and deporting refugees. The implication from that scene seems to be that, despite the objections, the GRC is about to vote in his favor (As we havn't really gotten any sense of the politics within the GRC, so when this guy does all the talking, we have no reason to think he's a crazed loner).

    Which kind of puts the Flag-Smasher's imminent attack in a heroic light.
    Spoiler
    Show
    My reading of where the show is going is that the GRC/(government callousness in general) is the full-villain scary bad guy, and both Carli and Walker are supposed to be potential allies turned bad. And of course Falcon swoops in with his own less-violent solution at the end.

    Of course I hope the show humanizes the GRC a bit more, just not expecting much. It'd be nice to point out that the GRC is trying to solve a real problem, and if Carli were to win just as many people would be screwed over by the new status quo as the old.


    That said, I think the biggest flaw in the show is that we have to wait a week to see more of it. Really enjoyed the last episode.

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

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    Is there really a villain in this show? I mean The GRC is forced to resettle 3.5 billion humans who came back, while also being respectful to all the people who migrated around the world during the blip. It is an impossible task that really illustrates the sheer selfishness of Tony wanting to bring everyone back to the present, rather than reverting things back to before the blip.


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  14. - Top - End - #314
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    Spoiler
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    I feel like its notable that the "red skull's daughter and Hydra affiliation" are 11th hour additions to the character made for shock value, in a period where comics are defined by ignoring prior characterization and continuity for the sake of shock, who spent most of her existence as a loyal, trustworthy and notable member of shield, one time rising to leader, and often times lover of Nick Fury. As likely to be ignored as included in her MU version and as likely to be ignored as included by future writers in the comic book universe.
    Spoiler
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    Given the skeevy and slimy way she introduces herself and inserts herself into Walker's life, along with the implications of what she offers him... I'm pretty sure she's not the "good" version of the character.
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  15. - Top - End - #315
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    I feel like we can't be done with Zemo. He escapes...just to go wait at the memorial until he's recaptured?

    That doesn't feel right. I feel like he set something in motion before turning himself in. Potentially whatever scheme Sharon and Batroc are hatching. Easy answer is that The weapons Batroc brought to new york contain trackers, since a big deal has been made about how hard it is to find the Flag Smashers.


    That, or they just didn't have anything else to do with him and decided to write him out. Could be either, next episode is likely to be a big enough Spectacle that they could hide that Zemo just kind of...broke out so he could turn himself in.
    We're definitely not.
    Spoiler: Dark Horse
    Show
    First, Zemo is the breakout star of this series, much like Agatha was from WandaVision - we'll be seeing him again. Second, Wakanda is sending him to the Raft, which has a track record almost as bad as Arkham's for keeping bad guys locked up long term.

    This is likely it for him in F&WS, but he'll get out and we'll see him in other things for sure. Meme culture has guaranteed it. Hell, Valentina's presence proves that corruption is still rampant in even the highest echelon's of government, so he may not even need to engineer anything himself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler: Power Broker
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    Okay, fine, itís Sharon.

    Urf. But at least we get more Batroc, which is great. Marvel has legions of lesser-known villains to draw on, and Iím glad theyíre making Batroc a consistent mid-level threat.

    Speaking of which, I feel like we should know who this Contessa Val person is, but I'm drawing a blank. Props if she's actually the Power Broker, but they've spent too much time setting up Sharon for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Spoiler
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    Contessa Valentina Allegra de la Fontaine, also known as Valentina de Santis, is a high ranking member of HYDRA who infiltrates the upper levels of SHIELD. She's also one of the Red Skull's daughters, so her being the Power Broker would be entirely suitable and appropriate as a nemesis of the new Captain America/s.
    Spoiler: Valentina
    Show
    Valentina is Madame Hydra in the comics. I don't think she needs to also be the Power Broker, though her working with Sharon isn't totally out of left field. In fact, multiple youtubers I value (Nando, Moviebob, etc) have been theorizing that Sharon is secretly evil/Hydra for years.

    So yeah, my final prediction is that Sharon is the Power Broker, not Valentina, but that they're either actively working together or at least aware of each other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler: Not With A Bang, But A Whimper
    Show
    Zemo really went out on a fizzle there. Given his strong presence and buildup in previous episodes, it feels like a letdown for him to just give the puppy-eyes and let people nearly shoot him. Youíd think a brilliant, wealthy mastermind would have a better plan than hoping Buckyís moral evolution has progressed far enough not to pull the trigger. Or at least not to do it with a loaded gun.

    And why would Bucky go through all the drama of nearly shooting him? Was he just walking around holding the bullets in his metal hand? Itís all very dramatic, but hardly seems practical. If someone else shows up with bad intentions, Buckyís just limited himself severely. He should know better than to go style over substance.
    Both men knew nobody would get shot there - it's as simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler: Truth and Consequences
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    And now heís going to walk into the fray with a homemade shield? At least we can expect a Cap vs. Cap showdown in New York...although, to quote Loki, it may be glorious but not lengthy.
    Spoiler: Homemade
    Show
    It's true that making his own shield seems like a recipe for getting shot - but if he got the materials/specs from Hydra, it'll probably be pretty sturdy. Hell, it might even have some actual Vibranium in it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler: Grounded
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    I know that Samís entire arc is about his becoming the next Captain America, but I canít help but feel disappointed that heís leaving the wings behind. Thinking in particular about how many times heís caught Captain America while falling to certain doom, or given Cap a ride, or just generally been useful flying with great speed and precision.

    Iíd much rather be soaring through the clouds than bouncing a metal frisbee off some tree trunks, but takes all types, I guess.
    Spoiler: Box
    Show
    Uhh... so what do you think is in that secret Wakanda box at the end anyway?

    99% chance they gave him new wings, and probably even a Redwing that isn't crammed with government trackers.

    In the comic, "Falcon America" does have wings + shield, no way they don't do that here. He's not a Super Soldier after all, he needs a bit of an edge.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  16. - Top - End - #316
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Spoiler: Walker's Shield
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    Walker's a super-soldier now, and the new formula's super soldiers seem to be more into physical superstrength stuff than Steve was.

    Steve was strong, but he was "Peak Human", the Flag Smashers seem to be a step beyond that strength wise, but Steve also had enhanced reflexes and such. The New Super Solders just seem to be Strong for the most part. We havn't seen much in the way of enhanced dexterity or endurance.

    (Consider that Rodgers was sprinting after cars and throwing garbage can lids less than a minute after getting turned into Chris Evans.)


    So, a shield of sturdy steel should do pretty well against Bullets. It won't be capable of shield throws and other tricks, but it will look like Captain America's shield and block bullets well enough, and his super-strength should let him carry it without slowing down despite the weight.

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  17. - Top - End - #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Spoiler: Walker's Shield
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    Walker's a super-soldier now, and the new formula's super soldiers seem to be more into physical superstrength stuff than Steve was.

    Steve was strong, but he was "Peak Human", the Flag Smashers seem to be a step beyond that strength wise, but Steve also had enhanced reflexes and such. The New Super Solders just seem to be Strong for the most part. We havn't seen much in the way of enhanced dexterity or endurance.

    (Consider that Rodgers was sprinting after cars and throwing garbage can lids less than a minute after getting turned into Chris Evans.)


    So, a shield of sturdy steel should do pretty well against Bullets. It won't be capable of shield throws and other tricks, but it will look like Captain America's shield and block bullets well enough, and his super-strength should let him carry it without slowing down despite the weight.

    "Peak Human?" You mean the guy that held a helicopter in place and blocked direct hits from Thanos?
    Nah, he was definitely above that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "Peak Human?" You mean the guy that held a helicopter in place and blocked direct hits from Thanos?
    Nah, he was definitely above that.
    He is what the plot demands. But yeah he seems much stronger in the movies than the main comics (616 universe)
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    Which fits a lot better than the 616 version to me - if the most his serum could manage in the MCU was truly peak human, having everyone bend over backwards and even accidentally create the freaking Hulk trying to reproduce something so banal just doesn't make a ton of sense, imo.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    When the comics use "peak human condition" originally when talking about Captain America they meant it in a Golden Age Superman kind of way. As in "this is what a human could do in the future after however many years of evolutionary development"-concept as conceived by early-to-mid 20th century pulp SF writers. A condition Golden Age Superman achieved by being born on what was essentially a parallel Earth but in a later stage in its development. Steve Rogers was not uplifted to quite the same hyperbolic degree as Superman, but the premise was similar enough.

    More modern comics tend to be more... vague about it, I guess? Captain America powerset and basic nature tends to shift with whoever's working on him at the time. While that may be also true for a lot of other Superheroes, it applies to him more than most.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2021-04-17 at 03:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Spoiler: Walker's Shield
    Show

    Walker's a super-soldier now, and the new formula's super soldiers seem to be more into physical superstrength stuff than Steve was.

    Steve was strong, but he was "Peak Human", the Flag Smashers seem to be a step beyond that strength wise, but Steve also had enhanced reflexes and such. The New Super Solders just seem to be Strong for the most part. We havn't seen much in the way of enhanced dexterity or endurance.

    (Consider that Rodgers was sprinting after cars and throwing garbage can lids less than a minute after getting turned into Chris Evans.)


    So, a shield of sturdy steel should do pretty well against Bullets. It won't be capable of shield throws and other tricks, but it will look like Captain America's shield and block bullets well enough, and his super-strength should let him carry it without slowing down despite the weight.

    I wouldn't call Steve, at least not in the MCU, a "mere peak human". They way he tossed around ordinary humans like mannequins in e.g. the opening of Winter Soldier was beyond that.

    On the other hand the whole MCU operates on partly cartoon physics with ordinary humans taking way more than they should and super strength turned up and down as fits the narrative.

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    Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
    As in "this is what a human could do in the future after however many years of evolutionary development"-concept as conceived by early-to-mid 20th century pulp SF writers.
    Do you have a citation for this?

    Years ago I heard Stephen Jay Gould speak about something similar, so Iím interested in the back-and-forth of ideas between science fiction and evolutionary science.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Spoiler: Walker's Shield
    Show

    Walker's a super-soldier now, and the new formula's super soldiers seem to be more into physical superstrength stuff than Steve was.

    Steve was strong, but he was "Peak Human", the Flag Smashers seem to be a step beyond that strength wise, but Steve also had enhanced reflexes and such. The New Super Solders just seem to be Strong for the most part. We havn't seen much in the way of enhanced dexterity or endurance.

    (Consider that Rodgers was sprinting after cars and throwing garbage can lids less than a minute after getting turned into Chris Evans.)


    So, a shield of sturdy steel should do pretty well against Bullets. It won't be capable of shield throws and other tricks, but it will look like Captain America's shield and block bullets well enough, and his super-strength should let him carry it without slowing down despite the weight.

    Spoiler
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    They already have shields that stop bullets called ballistic shields. Instead of steal, they are made of as UHMWPE or pre-preg aramid fibres. Cool thing is Unlike a ballistic vest, projectiles successfully stopped by a ballistic shield will not transfer trauma or pain to the bearer, as they are designed to not be in direct contact with the body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
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    They already have shields that stop bullets called ballistic shields. Instead of steal, they are made of as UHMWPE or pre-preg aramid fibres. Cool thing is Unlike a ballistic vest, projectiles successfully stopped by a ballistic shield will not transfer trauma or pain to the bearer, as they are designed to not be in direct contact with the body.
    Spoiler
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    But if you can't throw it and magically it bounce off objects back into your hand, are they really worth it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Do you have a citation for this?

    Years ago I heard Stephen Jay Gould speak about something similar, so Iím interested in the back-and-forth of ideas between science fiction and evolutionary science.
    Nah, I've just read a lot of Golden Age SF.

    As a concept, it's adjacent to and somewhat overlaps the "if you could use 100% of your brain you'll unlock fantastical psychic powers!" sort of premise. That human physiology is a kind of wonderland of untapped potential we're going to unlock. So it fits Superhero comics quite well.

    It's kind of amusing until you get into more acceptable-at-the-time sub-themes of eugenics and biological destiny... or the notable absence of persons of colour for that matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    Spoiler
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    But if you can't throw it and magically it bounce off objects back into your hand, are they really worth it?
    Spoiler
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    Carry two shields: One to block bullets and the other to throw and catch?

  27. - Top - End - #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Spoiler
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    Carry two shields: One to block bullets and the other to throw and catch?
    Spoiler
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    But they're not vibranium. I haven't done much research on real life ballistic shields, but I think when you throw them they just fall on the ground, instead of flying back into your hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    The classic thing to do with villains like the Flag Smashers is "They had good intentions, but they WENT TOO FAR!"


    But, like, here we have the GRC being pretty cartoonishly evil, talking about forcibly relocating people and shouting about "We have the troops in place".

    I have trouble seeing the Flag Smashers coming out of this as unambiguous villains.
    Spoiler
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    Although let's keep in mind that these are the legacy of, or quite possibly the same people as, the world council who were quite happy to use a nuclear weapon on one of the world's biggest cities within what, an hour or so of first contact with a hostile force...

    We should be entirely unsurprised that they are a pack of wrong 'uns.

  29. - Top - End - #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
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    Although let's keep in mind that these are the legacy of, or quite possibly the same people as, the world council who were quite happy to use a nuclear weapon on one of the world's biggest cities within what, an hour or so of first contact with a hostile force...

    We should be entirely unsurprised that they are a pack of wrong 'uns.
    Weren't these individuals all killed in The Winter Soldier?

  30. - Top - End - #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Weren't these individuals all killed in The Winter Soldier?
    Some of them, but even if the faces at the top change, the culture doesn't.

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