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  1. - Top - End - #631
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    @Cikomyr2

    If this had been an arrest, I might agree. But it wasn't. It was just a fight over who should keep the shield. If it had been an arrest, then they wouldn't have left him there once they got the shield.

    Which they seem to have (again, hard to tell as we skip around a lot, this isn't as bad as the Sam apparently abandons Sharon to patch herself up to carry out Karli's corpse one, but it does our heroes no favors).

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't actually find the question of 'who should have this shield' particularly interesting. The question of 'who should be the next Captain America and who has the authority, moral, legal, whatever to decide that,' is.

    Honestly, if John is as screwed up as you're stating, leaving him injured and crazy on the ground in a random Latvian warehouse is pretty immoral (to whoever he, a supersoldier at this point, might run into next) even if it works out.

  2. - Top - End - #632
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    Tyndmyr's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    They swiped it because he used it to murder someone and promptly fled the scene, and they were the only ones with a hope of stopping him without more casualties. We know from empirical evidence (and more importantly, Sam and Bucky know) that a super-soldier carrying that shield can be very difficult for even a swat team to handle, never mind regular law enforcement.
    I mean...a super soldier with no shield can also be this? Like, for instance, the Winter Soldier? I have difficulty imaging that Sam and Bucky have not thought of this. Focusing on the shield here is really strange.

    The difference between a super soldier with a shield and a super soldier without a shield is not all that large. The shield isn't what makes Cap effective. Yeah, he uses it well, but he also does just great when it isn't available.

    1) The gun is far more likely to be actually his than the shield.
    2) Technically they left it on the ground somewhere. It slid out of camera, which by movie logic means it might as well have fallen into a black hole for all we know (or I care).
    3) Without the shield and with a broken arm, Walker is a lot more likely to just go turn himself in - which he did.
    I would assume that all guns used by them are issued, since they have them when they are officially US agents, and generally that comes with standard issue weaponry, both in the real world, and from everything we know about the MCU military forces. I don't see how ownership comes into it at all.

    If you're arguing that Walker needed to be stopped ethically, cool. There's some sound logic here. But it's not the shield that is the problem. It's Walker that's the problem. A murderous killhappy dude with superpowers and a gun can still kill people, same as if he had a shield.

  3. - Top - End - #633
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't actually find the question of 'who should have this shield' particularly interesting. The question of 'who should be the next Captain America and who has the authority, moral, legal, whatever to decide that,' is.

  4. - Top - End - #634
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    It was wrong for Walker to keep that shield and I think nobody knew that more than Walker. But he let his own sense of self importance and self-righteousness go to his head.

    Guys, he can't even admit that the guy he killed wasn't the one who killed his buddy. He is either outright delusional, or he is in constant self-rationalization mode.
    This. And hoo-boy, that hearing afterward, as well as meeting with Lemar's family...

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Honestly, if John is as screwed up as you're stating, leaving him injured and crazy on the ground in a random Latvian warehouse is pretty immoral (to whoever he, a supersoldier at this point, might run into next) even if it works out.
    Well I'm glad you're finally admitting he's crazy at least

    Anyway, let's be clear about what we see in the show - the only one who actually left the scene was Bucky. Sam was still there, holding the shield, when it ends. Then we cut to him meeting up with Torres to drop of his broken wings an unspecified amount of time later, and then immediately back to the US for John's hearing. Nothing Sam did in between those moments was captured. Maybe he did arrest Walker, or call for backup. Maybe the gun was taken too. You all are making a lot of assumptions about what Sam did and didn't do. All we know is that Walker was clearly apprehended and put on trial by the committee. That's it.

    So yeah, I take back the "Walker turned himself in" comment, because we don't even know if he did that. (@Tyndmyr also)
    Last edited by Psyren; Today at 12:13 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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  5. - Top - End - #635
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    (again, hard to tell as we skip around a lot, this isn't as bad as the Sam apparently abandons Sharon to patch herself up to carry out Karli's corpse one, but it does our heroes no favors).
    Oh yes that part is cringe-worthy. They could have fixed it so easily too. Add three lines:

    Sam: Sharon, you’re hurt, let me take you to the hospital.
    Sharon: Are you crazy, if you take me there they’ll arrest me. I’ll be fine!
    Sam: Well in that case there’s something else I need to do...

    Then he picks up Karli’s carcass and flies off with it to make his speech. But give some kind of indication that Sam knows Sharon is injured, and Sharon either doesn’t want or doesn’t need help.

  6. - Top - End - #636
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Well I'm glad you're finally admitting he's crazy at least

    Anyway, let's be clear about what we see in the show - the only one who actually left the scene was Bucky. Sam was still there, holding the shield, when it ends. Then we cut to him meeting up with Torres to drop of his broken wings an unspecified amount of time later, and then immediately back to the US for John's hearing. Nothing Sam did in between those moments was captured. Maybe he did arrest Walker, or call for backup. Maybe the gun was taken too. You all are making a lot of assumptions about what Sam did and didn't do. All we know is that Walker was clearly apprehended and put on trial by the committee. That's it.

    So yeah, I take back the "Walker turned himself in" comment, because we don't even know if he did that. (@Tyndmyr also)
    I think you may be confusing me with someone else as there's a lot of cross-talk here. I've never taken a position on John's state of mind. Unless you think my suggesting Sam should have been more competent at talking him down meant John wasn't messed up? That was very definitely not what I meant there. Saying a trained counselor should be better at dealing with someone is not intended to suggest that person is in a good mental state.

    I'm a little grumpy that you ignore the part where I say it's hard to tell if they just left him there given how it's shot, in order to tell me that we don't know that? I mean...yeah...we don't, that's why I said it's hard to tell.

    It seems extraordinarily unlikely that Sam did any of that as no one except John knows where the shield went and if Sam had called anyone in, I sort of think they would, one way or another. But it's not shown.

  7. - Top - End - #637
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Calling it in doesn't mean Sam had to stick around, or even reveal who placed the call, so John or the authorities not knowing where the shield is is neither here nor there.
    The council seems to think he has it ("return the shield to us with expedience!"), suggesting John didn't put them on Sam's scent - and why would he, since he hates them and they stripped his life away - though Val mysteriously already knows he doesn't.

    Sorry for implying you didn't think he was crazy. But I dismiss the idea that being a trained counselor means you can predict with 100% accuracy what will set off someone who is crazy either. It means you're better equipped for that situation than someone who isn't trained, but the whole point of being crazy at the end of the day is that he is unpredictable.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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  8. - Top - End - #638
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Calling it in doesn't mean Sam had to stick around, or even reveal who placed the call, so John or the authorities not knowing where the shield is is neither here nor there.
    The council seems to think he has it ("return the shield to us with expedience!"), suggesting John didn't put them on Sam's scent - and why would he, since he hates them and they stripped his life away - though Val mysteriously already knows he doesn't.

    Sorry for implying you didn't think he was crazy. But I dismiss the idea that being a trained counselor means you can predict with 100% accuracy what will set off someone who is crazy either. It means you're better equipped for that situation than someone who isn't trained, but the whole point of being crazy at the end of the day is that he is unpredictable.
    Okay, three quick points:

    1) I never claimed he should be able to predict with 100% accuracy, merely that demanding the shield was unwise and was predictably so for Sam, who has spent time with John.
    2) The whole point of being crazy is very much not that you are unpredictable. Crazy and chaotic are not synonymous. Many forms of insanity make you extremely predictable.
    3) I guess it's possible Sam called it in, then stuck around to watch until someone arrived to cart John off? But I don't think that's likely as if GRC folks had found him, unconscious, broken arm, no shield, then the assumption that he still has the shield is pretty stupid. More likely is John cleaned himself up and returned to base, then presumably lied about what happened with Sam/Bucky (which again, bad). If he shows up on his own, then there's a reasonable story that he ditched the shield somewhere and could retrieve it. If he's picked up without it at the sight of a battle where the shield was obviously used...not so much. To me, the most likely explanation is that they left, which is not great. If he's enough of a threat that the fight is necessary than you can't just leave him there. Especially given that they should know at this point that Karli on the same formula was shot multiple times and just ran off and is apparently totally fine now, up and killing folks (though again, the time-scale is ambiguous, I couldn't tell how long she had to heal between Zemo shooting her and meeting up with Sam/ambushing John.)

  9. - Top - End - #639
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Their responsibility ends at disarming him and maybe calling it in. Without the shield, anyone with a gun (such as, say, Latvian police) can take it from there - supersoldiers not being bulletproof and all - especially with his arm broken.

    And to be purely factual about it, he didn't have a gun either when Bucky left. Was it still on the floor nearby? Again, maybe. Clearly its presence didn't matter to the narrative one way or another. I'll just assume Sam either took it too, or took the bullets out of it or something, but the fact is that it was irrelevant. Since the show wasn't clear about it one way or the other, I'll go with the assumptions that fit with the text. *points at sig*

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  10. - Top - End - #640
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Their responsibility ends at disarming him and maybe calling it in. Without the shield, anyone with a gun (such as, say, Latvian police) can take it from there - supersoldiers not being bulletproof and all - especially with his arm broken.

    And to be purely factual about it, he didn't have a gun either when Bucky left. Was it still on the floor nearby? Again, maybe. Clearly its presence didn't matter to the narrative one way or another. I'll just assume Sam either took it too, or took the bullets out of it or something, but the fact is that it was irrelevant. Since the show wasn't clear about it one way or the other, I'll go with the assumptions that fit with the text. *points at sig*
    I mean, their responsibility ends at none of this. They aren't cops, or representatives of the Latvian government. They're doing all of this voluntarily. The question isn't one of responsibility, it's one of ethics. And it depends on their motivation for fighting him. If they just want the shield, then they're fine. If the goal is to stop John before he hurts someone else, then I guess they succeeded because the narrative works out that way, but that seems to have more to do with luck than any precautions/planning on their part.

    I have repeatedly explained why I don't believe the assumption that you're making fits the text, but at this point we're going around in circles, so I'm going to disengage. Have a nice day.

  11. - Top - End - #641
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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    I mean, their responsibility ends at none of this. They aren't cops, or representatives of the Latvian government. They're doing all of this voluntarily. The question isn't one of responsibility, it's one of ethics. And it depends on their motivation for fighting him. If they just want the shield, then they're fine. If the goal is to stop John before he hurts someone else, then I guess they succeeded because the narrative works out that way, but that seems to have more to do with luck than any precautions/planning on their part.

    I have repeatedly explained why I don't believe the assumption that you're making fits the text, but at this point we're going around in circles, so I'm going to disengage. Have a nice day.
    I do genuinely believe there's more to it than "luck." But again, we can disagree. Have a nice day.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  12. - Top - End - #642
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    Starbuck_II's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Except we don't care about the finer points of legality. And even if we did, John Walker just committed a war crime by murdering a surrendering opponent in plain daylight.

    You guys seem to have a fuzzy concept of morality here. What's legal is not necessary right. What's illegal is not necessary immoral.

    It was wrong for Walker to keep that shield and I think nobody knew that more than Walker. But he let his own sense of self importance and self-righteousness go to his head.

    Guys, he can't even admit that the guy he killed wasn't the one who killed his buddy. He is either outright delusional, or he is in constant self-rationalization mode.
    It wasn't a war crime then because he never surrendered.
    Maybe he meant to, but he didn't. Instead he was ninja'd by Walker.

  13. - Top - End - #643
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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    I think lying on the ground on the back and yelling "It wasn't me!" and holding up arms in protection counts as surrender.

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