The Falcon & Winter Soldier

[Starbuck_II]

The fourth episode places a bit of emphasis on whether or not someone would or should take the supersoldier serum if it's offered to them. Sam says no with no hesitation, he doesn't want to need it. Lemar says he would, again with no hesitation. John Walker hesitates and considers the risk before settling on yes... In part due to pressure.

I honestly have to wonder how most people would answer.

I mean, assuming it's a stable version of the MCU Serum with the effects of "fixes everything wrong with your body, gives you low levels of superhuman strength and speed, and makes you more yourself, for good or so ill" gotta say, I'd be tempted.

Myopia, astigmatism, early-onset arthritis in multiple joints, sometimes I think my hearing is going, permanent circulatory damage from a freak blood clot, chronic headaches, overly sensitive and infection-prone sinuses, I've been exposed to carcinogens on and off my whole life, and I have a family history of cancer, diabetes, and abuse of addictive substances. I am also quite fat due to a combination of stupid decisions as a child, bad genes, and lack of ability or opportunity to diet or exercise.

If I could get a one-shot treatment that took care of all of that, fixed the problems I have, and make it so I didn't have to worry about the ones I don't have yet but are statistically gonna be a problem later... god damn would I be tempted.

See, Cap was below human standards.
Which is why when people are standard got serum like Flag Smashers they seem stronger.
It wold be like in D&D terms, he was 8 strength (his being below par was part of his charm). You get +10 Str for serum.
So he was an 18 at middle of 1st arc of movie (after being dosed). Now as he fighting he put stat point in Str so he was probably 22 Str by end.

Flag Mashers were like 12 or 10 strength, assuming new serum is only +8 Strength, they are still 20 to 22 Str, which is amazingly strong.
Natasha's Super Soldier serum is probably only +6 Str but huge dex bonus as well.

Isaiah was likely 12-14 str so assuming it still gave +10 Str , he was 22-24 at start of his dosing (granted, most of those had side effects like death or going crazy)


Now, would I take it?
Hell, yeah.
If it really amplified everything I'd be more stubborn (so was Cap, he kept trying to enlist remember after being told no multiple times, he tried cheating)
But I do have a mild temper when I don't understand why things don't work (like a video game, why do I keep failing lol) so that is a minor liability.
I do wonder, Cap's serum kept you from aging, but Isaiah's did not. Sure, Isaiah was still at peakish strength, but he definately aged.


It took Cap to age over 100 years before he was like 70 (remember he went back to WW 2 and lived a normal life). So Isaiah aged way faster (he looks 70ish after normal time of years).

[Wraith]

I do wonder, Cap's serum kept you from aging, but Isaiah's did not. Sure, Isaiah was still at peakish strength, but he definately aged.

It took Cap to age over 100 years before he was like 70 (remember he went back to WW 2 and lived a normal life). So Isaiah aged way faster (he looks 70ish after normal time of years).

I think a lot of that gets hand-waved under the heading of "it wasn't quite the same serum". Isaiah's dose was the best of the bunch available, considering what happened to the other members of his unit, but it was still a recreation of the one given to Steve so it's probably not flawless. Close, maybe, but "superhuman except that he ages at a normal rate" was probably the best that he could have hoped for, under the circumstances.

[JadedDM]

Wasn't Isaiah given the serum in the 50s? We don't know how old he was at the time, but if we assume he was in his 20s-30s, that would make him, what, in his 90s-100s now?

[M1982]

Did Caps Serum keep him from aging in MCU?

I thought his and Bucky's age was due to "not aging while being frozen pseudo science".

Other than that the just aged very well into very fit seniors but aged nonetheless

[LeSwordfish]

Did Caps Serum keep him from aging in MCU?

I thought his and Bucky's age was due to "not aging while being frozen pseudo science".

Other than that the just aged very well into very fit seniors but aged nonetheless

It certainly slowed him down - he lived, what, 20 years before getting frozen, fifteen years after waking up, and then seventyish years afterwards? OldCap was looking pretty good for north of a hundred.

[Clertar]

It certainly slowed him down - he lived, what, 20 years before getting frozen, fifteen years after waking up, and then seventyish years afterwards? OldCap was looking pretty good for north of a hundred.

But pre-Endgame, did the serum really prevent him from aging? It seems that Bradley would have had the same progression if he had spent the same amount of time frozen.

[Tyndmyr]

So...while the finale, and this miniseries as a whole was not horrible, I wasn't super enthralled. In fact, I went back after watching the finale to check to ensure that it was actually the last episode, to make sure I had not misunderstood.

Long rant below:

Spoiler

Show

So, problem number 1 is that...nothing actually happens here. I realize that this is to some extent a conceit because the MCU doesn't want to presume people have watched the movies, but at the end of this, pretty much all the pieces have been reset to where they are at the beginning. Zemo is back in jail, Bucky is done being the Winter Soldier, Falcon's now got the shield and is gonna be the new Cap. More super soldiers, who are now all dead... and even US Agent is back to pretty much the same role he apparently had previously. This is...unexciting.

But it's not the primary problem.

Consider most of your favorite superhero films. A good, properly evil villain helps a great deal, yes? Even if they're not greatly fleshed out, we at least need someone to fight. The best villains, Loki, Killmonger, Thanos, etc, are people we love to hate, but even films like GotG 1 at least have a villain. Yeah, we may not actually care much about Ronan, but he serves his function, and the movie still works otherwise.

Falcon & Winter Soldier has no real villain.

Now, you might think I'm wrong. The bad guys are the evil Council of evil. Well...no. Our heroes never fight them. One talks at them for a couple of minutes. They certainly never see our heroes as the enemy, and are not trying to hurt or even stop the heroes. Not villains.

What about US Agent? Well, he *could* have been a villain, and it sure seems like they put effort into setting it up...but then they walk it all back in the finale. He goes from being a bloodied, ousted former hero on a path towards revenge with a homemade shield to...well, scrapping that and being the same aspiring generally decent sort he was at the beginning. None of the rest appears to matter. This is basically a "fellow heroes disagree and scrap a bit in the middle before coming together" trope. This does not a villain make.

Ah, you say, but what of the Power Broker? Again, always fighting on the same side as the heroes. Never opposes them, doesn't appear to want them dead or injured, helps them out quite a few times. Could absolutely be a villain, but most definitely is not.

But Zemo? Zemo is a bad guy right? Sure. He's absolutely a tragic villain in Civil War. He isn't here. He only works on the side of the heroes, and arguably never does anything that's even really evil. The most conflict they have is about killing the maker of the serum, and that's just talking a bit about different philosophical approaches. He does the morally grey stuff so the heroes get to keep their hands clean. Hardly villainous. I'd actually argue that his role is as a fellow hero, and he's probably the most compelling hero when all three are on screen, because he actually has to face opposition to his objectives.

The rest is pretty much the same. Yeah, they squabble with Batroc the once, but it's basically a cameo, he's really unimportant to the plot. Wakandan spear-guards? A fight, sure, but again, Wakanda is not portrayed as villainous.

The only thing that even kind of occupies that role is the Flag Smashers, who are mostly faceless goons. Literally, given the masks, which they put on to fight people who already have seen their faces for...reasons. The only one we get to know at all is Karli, who keeps being portrayed as kind of sympathetic, somehow, but also is ludicrously axe crazy. What is her plan? Apparently, in the finale, it's to kidnap a bunch of senators to force them to stop a deportation somehow, but nothing else has been leading up to this. The other bombings and killings appear to be largely unnecessary to this. I'm not even sure why people are following her. She doesn't seem like an inspirational leader, or to even really know what she's doing.

In fact, the Patch Act apparently is a reaction to the Flag Smashers. Somehow. I'm a little fuzzy on how deporting 20 million people solves a small group of terrorists, but it establishes that none of the earlier violence was in reaction to that. By all rights, the Flag Smashers are straight up terrorists, and should be the bad guys. Zemo's statement that she's right and must be killed proves to be exactly correct, but we have Sam insisting publicly that they are not terrorists because...I dunno. Reasons? I feel like when you're blowing up innocents to make a political point, you've crossed that line.

Anyways, because there's no real finale, they instead fall back on that ol' trope of solving everything with a speech. The Council dude asks how to determine who gets a house if, thanks to the blip, there are now two claimants to it. The returned person or the person who took over in the meantime? This is a solid question. Sam answers by telling him to do better. So, uh...not answering at all, then. Supposedly this is inspirational instead of just insipid.

Ultimately, nothing is really solved, and all of the problems that existed beforehand still exist now. We're given vague impressions of the council's evilness, but other than the somewhat contested deportation, we don't really have much actual context. Can they actually order a million meals with a phone call? Maybe. Even if so, does that solve the house problem? Rations in a camp are something, but if you have half the housing, some people are gonna be in homes, and some in camps, and whoever is in the camps is probably not super happy with the result.

While a lot of the acting was really well done, and watching the slice of life stuff was honestly not bad, the actual plot is a frigging mess because the MCU can't seem to actually commit to much of anything surrounding the blip, yet wants it to be important somehow.

[Gallowglass]

stuff

Too long to quote, but I disagree vehemently with your primary premise.

The strongest point of this series is that the adversaries are more nuanced than "a villain we love to hate." The whole point is -THIS- captain america doesn't get Nazis to fight. He has more complex relationships to navigate.

The Flag-smashers have a point
Zemo has a point
The GRC has a point
John Walker has a point.

None of them are perfect, all of them are flawed, but none of them are the clear bad guy. And that's the whole point.

If this series failed at any point, it was when they had the Flag-smashers blow up the building full of innocents. That was unnecessary and undermined the intention of making everyone relatable because then they turned into Killmonger or Ronan. Obviously the bad guys.

I, personally, appreciated that about this show. And that seems to be your primary complaint. Yes, that makes this different than the standard marvel fare, but with the long form narrative of a 6 episode miniseries instead of a 2 hour movie, they get to build more complex stories.

that's not to say that I adored this series. I adored Wandavision. this series I... appreciated... but it wasn't my favorite thing i'm watching right now. For example, you do have a point in that the end of the series seems very close to where it began. Except we assume the beginning is "Sam is Captain ^America because Steve handed him the shield" only to find out that Sam has conflicted feelings about that and needs the series to work his way through them.

I don't mind that. I want to learn more about the characters. i want them to flesh out and grow. That's what this series does. It gives time and space to build the characters instead of just smashing them against other action figures to see what happens.

So, I don't really mind that the series ends more or less where it started. Not when i enjoyed the ride to get there.

[BRC]

Too long to quote, but I disagree vehemently with your primary premise.

The strongest point of this series is that the adversaries are more nuanced than "a villain we love to hate." The whole point is -THIS- captain america doesn't get Nazis to fight. He has more complex relationships to navigate.

The Flag-smashers have a point
Zemo has a point
The GRC has a point
John Walker has a point.

None of them are perfect, all of them are flawed, but none of them are the clear bad guy. And that's the whole point.

If this series failed at any point, it was when they had the Flag-smashers blow up the building full of innocents. That was unnecessary and undermined the intention of making everyone relatable because then they turned into Killmonger or Ronan. Obviously the bad guys.
.

That's the strongest point, but it's also the weakest point, because they have to shove the nuance into a standard Superhero Plot, and the Standard Superhero Plot is centered around The Hero Defeats The Villain.

The Flag Smashers have a point, to the degree that the Hero ends up AGREEING with them, and at least partially achieving their goals for them, but they're still the Villains, and the hero's VICTORY is built on the Flag Smasher's defeat in combat.


Zemo has an Ideology more than a point? His Thing is that "Super Soldiers are Inheriently Bad", and he's polite in pursuit of that goal, and he doesn't betray our heroes, and he's likable, but I don't think the show actually backs him up on that point. The whole thing is that the Flag Smashers are kind of right, Bucky is a hero after he is unbrainwashed, and Walker ends up pretty firmly heroic.


The GRC has solid points, and gets ideologically "Defeated" in the end.

Walker...ends up as a Hero despite the setup of the rest of the series? He doesn't really have much in the way of a "Point". He's just a sympathetic character who does some bad stuff.


All the antagonists come across as sympathetic, which is different from them "having a point".

The primary antagonists are the Flag Smashers, who are given heaps of sympathy, and Have a Point, but are also given the "Scary radical" treatment. They're Wrong, and we're supposed to cheer for their defeat because...why? Had they not attacked, the PATCH act would have gone through, and it would have been really bad. Their attack gave Sam the chance to make the speech and stop the PATCH act.

As much as they gave Karlie the "This isn't the way to do it" speech...Her way Worked. Not as she intended, but it did. I don't think there was Another Way. (Blowing up the building was unneccessary and didn't do anything, but)


The thing about every side having good points is that it's hard to make a satisfying conclusion out of that, and the show didn't really. The show built it's emotional core, not around the PATCH act, but around "Will Sam Wilson be Captain America". The attack on the GRC is the DRAMATIC conclusion, and kind of ends with a whimper. The point of the Big Speech is less "This is how the Flag Smashers vs GRC conflict gets resolved", because it doesn't resolve that, and more about "This is Sam Wilson becoming Captain America".

The Emotional, character arc resolves, but the dramatic arc kind of whimpers and fades out with "I guess the GRC is going to re-examine things and figure out something else maybe?"

[Rater202]

I mean, "Walker ends up a hero despite the setup" is kind of what happened in the comics.

He's, and he's definitely nan anti-hero: In any given appearance where he's not the star of the comic, he's as likely to be an antagonist as he is to be an ally.

He's also got some screws loose. I honestly don't know how else to describe a character who on one occasion was shown beating up civilians in the middle east while looking for leads on terrorists but on another occasion was shown going out of his way to protect Mexican immigrants entering the united states illegally from vigilante militias. I'd say bipolar but he doesn't actually show the symptoms of a bipolar disorder beyond moving between extremes.

The only real difference is that in the comics, it was his parents who died, not Lemar(Lemar is still alive and kicking in the comics) and the whole thing was a long con set up by the Red Skull.

(And Steve was still around, he'd just fallen out of favor with the Government.)

[Starbuck_II]

In fact, the Patch Act apparently is a reaction to the Flag Smashers. Somehow. I'm a little fuzzy on how deporting 20 million people solves a small group of terrorists, but it establishes that none of the earlier violence was in reaction to that. By all rights, the Flag Smashers are straight up terrorists, and should be the bad guys. Zemo's statement that she's right and must be killed proves to be exactly correct, but we have Sam insisting publicly that they are not terrorists because...I dunno. Reasons? I feel like when you're blowing up innocents to make a political point, you've crossed that line.

Anyways, because there's no real finale, they instead fall back on that ol' trope of solving everything with a speech. The Council dude asks how to determine who gets a house if, thanks to the blip, there are now two claimants to it. The returned person or the person who took over in the meantime? This is a solid question. Sam answers by telling him to do better. So, uh...not answering at all, then. Supposedly this is inspirational instead of just insipid.

Ultimately, nothing is really solved, and all of the problems that existed beforehand still exist now. We're given vague impressions of the council's evilness, but other than the somewhat contested deportation, we don't really have much actual context. Can they actually order a million meals with a phone call? Maybe. Even if so, does that solve the house problem? Rations in a camp are something, but if you have half the housing, some people are gonna be in homes, and some in camps, and whoever is in the camps is probably not super happy with the result.

While a lot of the acting was really well done, and watching the slice of life stuff was honestly not bad, the actual plot is a frigging mess because the MCU can't seem to actually commit to much of anything surrounding the blip, yet wants it to be important somehow.[/spoiler]

The problem is

Spoiler

Show

Agreed, Flag Smashers are terrorists which is why I saw no issue with what Walker did.
Dude did not surrender. Maybe he might have if Walker didn't kill him, but he didn't and he died instead.

Sam is not up to being Captain America even now. He just wants peace, not solutions. He has the talk and look down but he is still not able to do it.
That is why he is all, "bygones to bygones" with Karli.

The issue is violence is the question not the answer. In some situations, the answer is yes.

[BRC]

I mean, "Walker ends up a hero despite the setup" is kind of what happened in the comics.

He's, and he's definitely nan anti-hero: In any given appearance where he's not the star of the comic, he's as likely to be an antagonist as he is to be an ally.

He's also got some screws loose. I honestly don't know how else to describe a character who on one occasion was shown beating up civilians in the middle east while looking for leads on terrorists but on another occasion was shown going out of his way to protect Mexican immigrants entering the united states illegally from vigilante militias. I'd say bipolar but he doesn't actually show the symptoms of a bipolar disorder beyond moving between extremes.

The only real difference is that in the comics, it was his parents who died, not Lemar(Lemar is still alive and kicking in the comics) and the whole thing was a long con set up by the Red Skull.

(And Steve was still around, he'd just fallen out of favor with the Government.)

I don't know how the Comics handled it, but this version of Walker seemed like a last minute rewrite to have him end up sympathetic.


Like, his arc seems pretty straightforwards.

He gets humiliated by the Adora Milaje, takes the Serum. Lamar Dies, he kills the Flag Smasher on camera, gets humiliated again by Sam and Bucky who take the Shield away. The Government discharges him (Humiliated again), Sketchy Lady makes him an offer.

He goes back, forges himself his own shield in an attempt to avenge Lamar/ Prove that He Is Captain America, or what have you.

Like, there's a satisfying conclusion there with him as an antagonist, especially if the central emotional arc is "Will Sam Wilson be Captain America", ended it by having Sam and John struggle for the shield and title in some manner. Even if John isn't going to get into a fistfight with Sam over the shield, maybe Sam has to stop John from going too far with the Flag Smashers or something.

but instead, John is generally pretty reasonable and heroic in the Finale. All that rage and wounded pride that he's been building up during the show is gone. There's no conflict with Sam. He's just...there to help.

Which seems counter to his whole character arc so far. Maybe if they explored him processing that, or what brought him to that point a bit more it could work.

It feels like they had three "Villains" in mind, Zemo, the Flag Smashers, and Walker. But they never really got Zemo to the point where he was an antagonist, and just wrote him out. They then realized they didn't have time for showdowns with both Walker and the Flag Smashers, so they just had Walker be an ally in the finale.

[Tyndmyr]

Too long to quote, but I disagree vehemently with your primary premise.

The strongest point of this series is that the adversaries are more nuanced than "a villain we love to hate." The whole point is -THIS- captain america doesn't get Nazis to fight. He has more complex relationships to navigate.

The Flag-smashers have a point
Zemo has a point
The GRC has a point
John Walker has a point.

None of them are perfect, all of them are flawed, but none of them are the clear bad guy. And that's the whole point.

There is a difference between being a villain and being a bad guy. One can be a villain, and not be a bad guy at all, though it's admittedly rare.

Being a villain with a point is...rather less rare. Quite a few films have taken the relatable villain approach. This kind of falls short on both.

If this series failed at any point, it was when they had the Flag-smashers blow up the building full of innocents. That was unnecessary and undermined the intention of making everyone relatable because then they turned into Killmonger or Ronan. Obviously the bad guys.

That is part of the problem. It's an obviously evil moment, and not one that adds nuance. They seem to want them to be relateable, nuanced characters, but they're not actually depicting that. If you're just blowing up innocents for...no real reason other than indiscriminate rage, you're not a nuanced, relatable person. You're basically just mustache twirling at that point.

Now, you can do great things with a scenery chewing ludicrously evil character. That's a fine option, but it's basically taking the Ronan path. The viewers are just not going to empathize with Ronan. You can't have it both ways if you embrace that sort of evil for its own sake.

I, personally, appreciated that about this show. And that seems to be your primary complaint. Yes, that makes this different than the standard marvel fare, but with the long form narrative of a 6 episode miniseries instead of a 2 hour movie, they get to build more complex stories.

I would disagree that this story is at all complex. The heros have no goals related to the plot, and are wholly reactive. Their adversaries have no goals related to the plot, and are wholly reactive. What actually happens is a bunch of super soldiers punch each other a lot because coincidence.

If this were compressed into the setup for an actual plot, fine. Maybe you want the Power Broker as the big bad, and this is just the first episode. That'd work. But no, the power broker reveal meant precisely nothing to this plot. That doesn't make this story even vaguely complex. It just makes it longer.

Zemo has an Ideology more than a point? His Thing is that "Super Soldiers are Inheriently Bad", and he's polite in pursuit of that goal, and he doesn't betray our heroes, and he's likable, but I don't think the show actually backs him up on that point. The whole thing is that the Flag Smashers are kind of right, Bucky is a hero after he is unbrainwashed, and Walker ends up pretty firmly heroic.

Zemo actually has an objective and opposition, and behaves in a fashion that is reasonably heroic.

Yes, he kills a guy. A guy that didn't seem to care who he was empowering, and who would have almost certainly done it again. That's no more evil than all the people falcon and Bucky kill. Hell, let's remember what Sam's reaction was to Antman in that cameo. It was a pair of submachine guns.

This also kind of makes US Agent's problems kind of odd. Yeah, it wasn't a super heroic kill, but it was almost certainly entirely legal and within expected parameters for taking down terrorists who had just killed people. It'd be like if we focused on one of the random people either of the two protagonists had machine gunned before.

As a turning point for him to go full evil in the finale, it would have worked. He feels bitter, cheated, and bam. But it's a big ol' sack of nothing, and it turns out that his inner core, amplified by the serum is...helpful. Okay.

The GRC has solid points, and gets ideologically "Defeated" in the end.

By a few minutes of speech that literally ignored the only point they made. As conflicts go, this was pretty weak.

The primary antagonists are the Flag Smashers, who are given heaps of sympathy, and Have a Point, but are also given the "Scary radical" treatment. They're Wrong, and we're supposed to cheer for their defeat because...why? Had they not attacked, the PATCH act would have gone through, and it would have been really bad. Their attack gave Sam the chance to make the speech and stop the PATCH act.

The PATCH act that only existed because they were blowing up innocents to begin with. This point was made on one of the TV clips they were watching somewhere in...episode 4? Maybe 5.

As much as they gave Karlie the "This isn't the way to do it" speech...Her way Worked. Not as she intended, but it did. I don't think there was Another Way. (Blowing up the building was unneccessary and didn't do anything, but)

Her repeatedly stated goal was to make things back the way they were before the Blip. She does not achieve this. I'm not sure that there is any way to achieve this short of a Thanos snap.

I have no idea how she intended to go from randomly blowing up buildings with people inside to everything going back to pre-Blip. Mostly, this just makes her look incompetent in addition to being fairly unconcerned with the lives and welfare of others.

But she didn't actually accomplish any change in the status quo save for the deaths of a lot of her friends and randoms. I am unclear as to how she managed to recruit so many flunkies as per the random Ep 5 reveal.

The point of the Big Speech is less "This is how the Flag Smashers vs GRC conflict gets resolved", because it doesn't resolve that, and more about "This is Sam Wilson becoming Captain America".

You could take it as a character study for the two characters with their names in the title, sure, but then where's Bucky's resolution? He's gearing up to talk to his old chum about killing his son, which, honestly...that could be one hell of a conversation.

The camera just cuts away from it though, so we never see it.

Sam also is wholly unable to resolve things with Karli, with Sharon solving the problem instead. And then he flies holding her body instead of, yknow, helping his wounded ally who he just leaves behind? Holy crap, that is not a Cap-like move.

So, uh, I'm gonna say that the show largely didn't care much about resolving personal arcs either.

[BRC]

Her repeatedly stated goal was to make things back the way they were before the Blip. She does not achieve this. I'm not sure that there is any way to achieve this short of a Thanos snap.

I have no idea how she intended to go from randomly blowing up buildings with people inside to everything going back to pre-Blip. Mostly, this just makes her look incompetent in addition to being fairly unconcerned with the lives and welfare of others.

But she didn't actually accomplish any change in the status quo save for the deaths of a lot of her friends and randoms. I am unclear as to how she managed to recruit so many flunkies as per the random Ep 5 reveal.

We're first told that their goal is to "Make it like things were before the blip" by Torres, but we're given a pretty good sense that that's a serious misrepresentation.

Their SPECIFIC goal is to keep the policy of open borders and free movement that became a Thing during the blip, as displaced populations moved into depopulated areas. THAT'S what they think was good, not that a bunch of people were dead. They oppose the re-establishment of national identity, and want to support/protect the people who were displaced by the Blip.


With that in mind, while "Kidnap the GRC to stop the PATCH Act" isn't GREAT, it's at least a more direct line from action to goal than "Blow up this building that we've already looted just to prove that we're down to kill people".

So, uh, I'm gonna say that the show largely didn't care much about resolving personal arcs either.

I'd say there was one very specific character arc they were interested in showing. "Should Sam Wilson be Captain America".

They do a bad job of building the show AROUND that. But the pieces are there for that to be a central conflict.

We open with Sam giving up the shield, Walker takes the shield, proves himself unworthy of it, Sam reclaims the shield, discusses with Bradley about what it means to be a Black Captain America, takes up the shield, saves the day, gives a big speech (Using the Shield, not as a weapon, buy as a Symbol) and Becomes Captain America.

You could argue that they did a bad job of building the show around that, because we don't really see Sam personally struggle with the decision. He gives up the Shield initially, but with his conversation with Bradley, he's already on the side of taking up the Shield, and Bradley is the one arguing against it. It's less "Sam Wilson overcomes his reluctance to take up the Shield" and more "Sam Wilson considers a variety of viewpoints, does what he wanted to do initially, and everybody agrees this is correct".

[Tyndmyr]

We're first told that their goal is to "Make it like things were before the blip" by Torres, but we're given a pretty good sense that that's a serious misrepresentation.

Why? There does not seem to be significant disagreement within the group. If she's lying to them, to what end?

Where is it said that this is a misrepresentation?

Their SPECIFIC goal is to keep the policy of open borders and free movement that became a Thing during the blip, as displaced populations moved into depopulated areas. THAT'S what they think was good, not that a bunch of people were dead. They oppose the re-establishment of national identity, and want to support/protect the people who were displaced by the Blip.


With that in mind, while "Kidnap the GRC to stop the PATCH Act" isn't GREAT, it's at least a more direct line from action to goal than "Blow up this building that we've already looted just to prove that we're down to kill people".

Yeah, but the PATCH act doesn't exist until episode 4 or 5. It was created because of them. They are not a response to it.

This isn't a coherent goal. If they prefer one united world, why are they against the global council that...runs everything?

There doesn't appear to be any immigration issues in the first two episodes. Early on, they're stealing vaccines, they're not doing anything about borders.

It's less "Sam Wilson overcomes his reluctance to take up the Shield" and more "Sam Wilson considers a variety of viewpoints, does what he wanted to do initially, and everybody agrees this is correct".

Correct. And fundamentally, that's a problem. There's no conflict there. It's like choosing to eat the same meal you always get while at a restaurant. Not much of a story there.

[Gallowglass]

Her repeatedly stated goal was to make things back the way they were before the Blip. She does not achieve this. I'm not sure that there is any way to achieve this short of a Thanos snap.

At no point is this her stated goal.

The Flag Smasher's stated goal is to keep things the way they were DURING the blip. Before the return of the missing 50% of the population.

They don't want old borders put back up and migrants to be forcible returned to where they were five years ago before they started moving around.

if person A moved into an apartment left vacant by the blip, they don't want that person kicked out because person B came back after the blip was over.

[BRC]

Why? There does not seem to be significant disagreement within the group. If she's lying to them, to what end?

Where is it said that this is a misrepresentation?

It's a misrepresentation in that "The way things were during the Blip" isn't referring to all the dead and missing people, but the political arrangements made in response to the Blip. Karlie isn't misrepresenting her views, Torres is misrepresenting the Flag Smasher's views to Sam/The Audience, by describing them as "Thinking things were better during the Blip", carrying with it the implication that what they liked back then was everybody being dead.

It's like, if you got sick and didn't have to go to work. Later on, you wake up, you're tired, you say "Ugh, I don't want to go to work today".

Then somebody else says "Wow, they wish this week was like last week" (didn't have to go to work).

Somebody else hears THAT and is like "Wow, I can't believe that they want to be sick again."

Yeah, but the PATCH act doesn't exist until episode 4 or 5. It was created because of them. They are not a response to it.

This isn't a coherent goal. If they prefer one united world, why are they against the global council that...runs everything?

There doesn't appear to be any immigration issues in the first two episodes. Early on, they're stealing vaccines, they're not doing anything about borders.

IIRC, the news report was that the GRC "Accellerated" it's plans in response to the Flag Smashers. It sounds like they were already trying to restore borders and resettle the populations.

Correct. And fundamentally, that's a problem. There's no conflict there. It's like choosing to eat the same meal you always get while at a restaurant. Not much of a story there.

Exactly. But it's the closest thing to a complete plot arc we have, since it's the only one that is Firmly Resolved On Camera.


The Flag Smashers are Defeated, but Sam agrees with their goal, so it's not quite "YAY! We stopped the Flag Smashers!"
The GRC is saved, but sam stops THEIR goal, so it's not "YAY! THe GRC is saved and can keep doing good stuff!"
Zemo just kind of vanishes.

Walker's plotline builds and builds, and then goes nowhere. "Yay! Walker is...US Agent now?". Like, he's built up to be an antagonist, but that kind of peters out.

"Sam Wilson Becomes Camptain America" has the classic Heroes Journey start with Refusing The Call, and ends with a big triumphant moment. But, as you said, it's a really weak plotline with basically no tension. Sam gets the Shield, we know from his talk with Bradley that he WANTS to be Captain America. The only thing stopping him from Being Captain America would be Walker...but walker just gets out of the way.

It's the one plotline with a definite conclusion, and it's a really weak one, since there's no conflict to it.


Had it ended with , Say, Walker (A Good Soldier) vs Sam (A Decent Man), THAT could have been exciting. Sam beats Walker, delivers The Speech, and we're like "Ah, Captain America isn't about being the gung-ho violence doer fighting America's Enemies! It's about showing Compassion and Decency!"

Had Sam struggled with taking up the Shield (Say, he didn't feel comfortable being America's Mascot considering the history of racism, but in the end realizes that the Shield isn't about Obeying The Government, it's about representing the IDEALS of America. Captain America is an Aspirational figure.) THAT Could have been exciting.

[Tyndmyr]

At no point is this her stated goal.

The Flag Smasher's stated goal is to keep things the way they were DURING the blip. Before the return of the missing 50% of the population.

They don't want old borders put back up and migrants to be forcible returned to where they were five years ago before they started moving around.

if person A moved into an apartment left vacant by the blip, they don't want that person kicked out because person B came back after the blip was over.

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. Yeah, we're in agreement. They want a return to the world before the return of half the world's population.

That's their goal. They got a lot of free stuff, but then the original owners came back, and there was a mess to sort out, and they don't want to be the ones kicked out.

There isn't really an accomplishing of that goal, and I'm not sure that there really could be short of getting into fairly evil stuff.

It's a misrepresentation in that "The way things were during the Blip" isn't referring to all the dead and missing people, but the political arrangements made in response to the Blip. Karlie isn't misrepresenting her views, Torres is misrepresenting the Flag Smasher's views to Sam/The Audience, by describing them as "Thinking things were better during the Blip", carrying with it the implication that what they liked back then was everybody being dead.

It's like, if you got sick and didn't have to go to work. Later on, you wake up, you're tired, you say "Ugh, I don't want to go to work today".

Then somebody else says "Wow, they wish this week was like last week" (didn't have to go to work).

Somebody else hears THAT and is like "Wow, I can't believe that they want to be sick again."

If the primary conflict is between the flag smashers and the Council, we should probably, I dunno, get the protaganists involved in that a bit more, and learn more about what the Council actually wants. We see very, very little of them. They're managing the transition, sure. They appear to have some internal conflict over the details of that. That's...honestly not that damning. Literally half the world's population showing back up is gonna create some waves.

IIRC, the news report was that the GRC "Accellerated" it's plans in response to the Flag Smashers. It sounds like they were already trying to restore borders and resettle the populations.

The PATCH act was announced as the result of that.

Some previous evictions no doubt happened, because camps existed. We don't really know who, how, or when, but this new eviction is most definitely the result of the Flag Smashers. There is no indication that the problem has now been fixed in any way, and Sam refuses to even address it when it's brought up.

It's a fun problem to chew over theoretically, and allows for some interesting moralization, and you could consistently, relatively heroically, take a few different stances and have some fun opposition, but refusing to take a stance at all is just kind of a let down.

Exactly. But it's the closest thing to a complete plot arc we have, since it's the only one that is Firmly Resolved On Camera.

I would argue that since no conflict occurred, and the outcome is the same one you would assume if you never saw the show, it isn't a plot, any more than that the sun is shining and the grass is growing. It's scenery. Conflicts drive plot, after all.

We don't have any real plot...we have...what looks like a bunch of ideas that *could* have been a plot, but all half finished and lumped in together. They had half a dozen different options and chose none of them. It's such a curious choice.

[BRC]

I would argue that since no conflict occurred, and the outcome is the same one you would assume if you never saw the show, it isn't a plot, any more than that the sun is shining and the grass is growing. It's scenery. Conflicts drive plot, after all.

We don't have any real plot...we have...what looks like a bunch of ideas that *could* have been a plot, but all half finished and lumped in together. They had half a dozen different options and chose none of them. It's such a curious choice.

We have a story without conflict, and a bunch of conflicts without Story.



Like, let me rewrite things a bit

Spoiler: BRC rewrites The Finale

Show

Walker kills the Flag Smasher. Maybe he was right to do so, but it's bad optics. He gets stripped of his title, rebuilds his shield. He KNOWS he was justified, it was tactically the right move. Lamar is dead, he's been abandoned, Shady Lady tells him he was right to do so, he agrees.

Bucky has been telling Sam to take up the shield all along, but Sam can't bring himself to agree. He's shaken by his conversation with Bradley. America's crimes are numerous, can he, in good conscience, take up the flag and fight for a country that has done so much evil? Bucky convinces him to practice shield throws and gives him The Suit.


Then, word comes in. The Flag Smashers are going to hit the GRC. Sam's wings are not there, he puts on the suit. Bucky cheers, sam says "This doesn't mean I've made a decision, just that I need to be able to fly today".

The key point here is that, while Sam is wearing the suit, and has practiced with/ is carrying the Shield, he is NOT thinking of himself as Captain America. He still doesn't know what that means, either for him, or the title.

We get the fight, a battle between Karlie, Sam, and Walker. Karlie has a hostage, hand around their neck. Sam puts down the shield.

"I understand your pain, I understand what you're fighting for, but this isn't going to do it. If you kill him, you stop, what, his signature on a piece of paper? There are thousands waiting to sign that paper. There is a better way" ect ect.

Sam puts down the shield and extends a hand. Karlie puts down her hostage, who scrambles away.
She says "What now"
Sam says "Turn yourself in, a lot of people agree with you, and I'll make sure their voices get heard. We can make the GRC listen."

At which point Walker shows up and shoot Karlie before she can answer.

His shield is destroyed, sam grabs the shield to protect Karlie from the follow up shot.

Walker gives a speech about how dare Sam protect this terrorist. How dare he use Captain America's Shield to protect America's enemies. He's not a Soldier, he doesn't Follow Orders. There isn't room for Sam's ideals about mercy nad justice, this is a War, and you win a war by destroying your enemy. Walker declares that He is what America Needs!

Sam retorts with a speech about "Maybe Captain America shouldn't be a Soldier. Maybe, Captain America is something more important. This isn't a weapon, it's a Shield. Maybe the Shield is about what America SHOULD be."

Sam beats walker, gives his big speech, ect. Karlie might still die of her wounds to wrap that plotline up, but Sam tried to save her.

Boom, plotline resolved. The question of "What does it Mean to be Captain America' becomes central. The fight between Sam and Walker becomes an ideological battle between "Captain America is America's Best Soldier" and "Captain America represents a moral Ideal!"

Edit: to make it extra spicy, do something like the following.

Walker says "You kill her and you end the threat"
Sam replies "Maybe, but you don't solve the Problem!"
Walker: "That's not a Soldier's Job!"
Sam: "Well, Maybe it's Captain America's".

or something like that. Walker shouldn't be Captain America because he can't see beyond defeating the enemy.

Maybe Karlie dies, but the fact that Sam TRIED to save her is relevant. He's able to reach out to the other Flag Smashers, the rest of the movement, and get them to cooperate as the GRC puts on some hearings or something to figure out next steps. It's going to be messy and complicated, but it might be better.


Then, we get the post-credits with Shady Lady, Walker has accepted that he isn't fit to be Captain America, that Sam was right. Shady Lady says "Sam wilson can be Captain America all he wants. What we're going to need is... US Agent!".

[Tvtyrant]

My assumption about shield physics was that the Shield deflected all of the energy it is hit with, so when it hits a vehicle it makes the vehicle come to a stop at the impact site and so shatters it. If it hits a person they have less energy/momentum so coming to a sudden stop is less lethal (why people flip over when hit like they are cartoon characters.)

[Tyndmyr]

Like, let me rewrite things a bit

Far better. I wonder what happened here, did they have something like this originally, then went one rewrite too deep or something?

There's a lot of loose threads that feel as if they're meant for something.

[BRC]

Far better. I wonder what happened here, did they have something like this originally, then went one rewrite too deep or something?

There's a lot of loose threads that feel as if they're meant for something.

My only guess is that they were forced to rewrite Walker's arc at the end. Either due to miscommunication, or meddling (Either from the Studio, who wanted to use him in other stuff, or the Millitary), at some point the script switched from Walker ending as an antagonist, to Walker ending as a Hero, and they didn't really bother to rewrite the finale.

[Rater202]

Or they wanted to follow his comics arc but ran out of time and had to rush the "pull back before you go too far" part.

[Dienekes]

Or they wanted to follow his comics arc but ran out of time and had to rush the "pull back before you go too far" part.

Kinda see it as the same thing that happened with The Executioner in Ragnarok. All the parts of the character arc are technically there. But because it was not set up in previous movies/parts of the MCU and it was only a segment of the movie/series in question. What we're left with is a rather unconvincing watered down version of the story.

[hungrycrow]

Or they wanted Walker to show up later in whatever follow-up movie happens.

[understatement]

Just finished the episode. My thoughts"

Spoiler: Good things

Show

It's only one tag because I can't honestly fill it up. Very good action scenes. Pretty good acting

The scenes with Isaiah were really well crafted.

The new costume looks sick!

Spoiler: GRC

Show

I don't know if the writers somehow didn't get the scope of GRC's actions, but they were about to deport 20 million people forcibly. And what do they get? Do they disband, like Steve asked for Shield? Are they imprisoned, like the Hydra senators?

Nope. Sam gives them a stern "talking-to." "Do better than mass-deportation." Well, yeah. It's like saying "don't eat babies." GRC is about to commit a crime against humanity and they are still in power at the end of the show.

Spoiler: Flag Smashers

Show

And while the GRC gets to stay nice and existent, the Flag Smashers get killed, every single one of them, because narratively they are given no say in the outcome. Their violence and actions? "Just a kid!" Okay, so I'm definitely exaggerating, but sweeping it under "Karli is mad and immature despite actually living through the 5 years of the Blip" is just weird.

Spoiler: USAgent

Show

What was John's arc?

Episode 5 clearly showed him slipping down the slope. Obsessive with Cap's shield, lying to Lemar's parents, trying to murder Sam and Bucky. But that's okay, because in this episode he does the huge moral choice of saving civilians! ...over not killing Flagsmashers that had nothing to do with Lemar's death. Wow. Color me impressed, that must have been such a huge dilemma.

Wait.

Yeah, no. Walker should've stayed an antagonist, and they could have him at the Lawful Neutral zone for future projects. Nope.

Spoiler: Who's fighting against who?

Show

The best hero-villain conflicts are ones where they have personal, or at least intense reasons to fight each other. So Sam, the new Captain America, fights against...not John Walker?

I mostly agree with BRC's take. Sam's arc about racial equality, the pressure of getting the mantle, runs antiparallel with John's. However, out of the main crew he is also the only one the show has that has strong parallelism with Karlie on the position of outcasts and much-needed change. The final fight most definitely should have ended with the three of them, and I'm mind-boggled why they didn't, especially since Karlie was the one that actually killed Lemar, even if by accident.

I don't know where Bucky goes in this. Honestly felt he should've squared off with Zemo, but Zemo got shipped back to the Raft.

Spoiler: Power Broker

Show

Oh, c'mon. This reveal feels tacked and out-of-place. And one could argue that "she had five years to become evil" but that becomes tell and not show. So what? We didn't get to see a single iota of it.

Conclusion:

Wandavision was (?)better, even though its finale landed somewhat shakily, since it at least stuck to its themes. This one...did not.

[Kyberwulf]

Eh, the whole cap growing old thing, could be he used the infinity stones to take away the magic serum and leave himself a normal dude.. you know just as he was as captain america

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Sounds like there’s a Captain America 4 in the works. Though as it’s apparently using the same writers, I’m a little wary that they’re going to continue the trend with villains that make no sense.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
Sounds like there’s a Captain America 4 in the works.

It makes sense that they’d test the waters with a limited series, and then greenlight a movie project if the series was well-received.

I would really, really hope they would move past Sharon in a movie, and let her be a low-level shadowy figure in the Disney+ side of the MCU.

As for Walker, I’m wondering if they’re considering a USAgent series for Disney+, since they’ve now positioned him as a grey-area operator with a sinister sponsor. Given the wobbly nature of the character arc, that might seem unlikely, but spinoff series have been spawned from less.

[Starbuck_II]

It makes sense that they’d test the waters with a limited series, and then greenlight a movie project if the series was well-received.

I would really, really hope they would move past Sharon in a movie, and let her be a low-level shadowy figure in the Disney+ side of the MCU.

As for Walker, I’m wondering if they’re considering a USAgent series for Disney+, since they’ve now positioned him as a grey-area operator with a sinister sponsor. Given the wobbly nature of the character arc, that might seem unlikely, but spinoff series have been spawned from less.

I heard, they might make West Coast Avengers with Hawkeye as the leader. I mean, it worked in the comics.