The Falcon & Winter Soldier

[Cikomyr2]

People seem to know a lot about someone Sam had never heard of lol

Everyone knows the Smiling Tiger made a name for himself during the Blip, where he emerged as an up and coming crime lord.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II
I mean, most MCU heroes survive worse, after all, she is a super soldier.

“If you get killed, walk it off” is pretty much the super-soldier motto.

[Tyndmyr]

Second this. They did not do a good job making him look competent. I will note I blame the writers for this, not Sam...but as the same writers are supposed to be writing Captain America 4, my hopes aren't high that matters are going to improve.

Agreed. I'm sure the intent wasn't to undermine Sam, and they probably had some restrictions they were working under for this series that may have hampered the story they wanted to tell. If Cap 4 is good, then eh, nobody is likely to care about this stuff too much.

I'm sorry but I'm counting 'abandoned his injured friend in favor of carrying off a corpse' and 'brought his personal phone while undercover' against him too.

Agreed. We talked about the one incident a fair bit, yeah, but there's a trend of examples that unfortunately combine to portray Sam a bit poorly.

Except you're wrong because we do in fact hear that the GRC has "stood down on those plans of theirs" (Isaiah) and "changed their repatriation and resettlement policies" (tv broadcast in Zemo's Raft cell) in the wake of Sam's speech. The details of those changes are not specified, but they don't need to be - it's enough that whatever those changes were, Sam and Isaiah are happy about them, and the details can be filled in later.

Eh, Sam and Isaiah aren't the refugees, and generally haven't had the same concerns as those actually in the camps. Good for them on being happy with the outcome, but given that we know almost no specifics, those statements could just be referring to the cancellation of the big plan they kick started because of Karli. Ultimately, we have no reason to think that the people living in camps with insufficient food and medicine have had their situation change. Yeah, maybe they're not being kicked to another camp, but they're still in a camp.

I'm not saying his heart isn't in the right place. I'm saying that his hunger for validation is making him into an unwitting pawn, possibly of Hydra or something just as bad. You can serve the cause of evil without being evil yourself, just by closing your eyes - which Walker is clearly doing, and which Steve (and for that matter Sam) would be a lot less likely to do.

Sure, Walker is definitely a pawn. I agree that he certainly seems to be far shorter on wisdom than Steve is generally portrayed, but Sam is also short of Steve in this portrayal. Not so dramatically bad as Walker, certainly, but Sam isn't selling that he's following up Steve's actions.

Perhaps that's the plot of Cap 4, though. Him learning to fill those shoes. Marvel doesn't seem to want too much character progression happening in the TV shows(which is damned odd, considering how much Thor and Hulk changed between films with no show....) so they may want some kind of "learning to fill the role" part of Sams first film outing as Cap.

Shannon only got a wound to the stomach, she was obviously fine and not in need of immediate attention by comic book logic.
Leaving his phone on was pretty stupid though. Again a problem with the writing making everyone dumb so that Zemo's basic competence looks genius.

This series *mostly* treats gunshots as relatively lethal, even to super soldiers. I mean, yeah, sure people tend to aim for shields and stuff, but when someone does take a bullet, they don't just walk it off.

The phone thing really was unfortunate. It felt like they really wanted that awkward phone call and just sorta forced it in.

[Psyren]

Eh, Sam and Isaiah aren't the refugees, and generally haven't had the same concerns as those actually in the camps. Good for them on being happy with the outcome, but given that we know almost no specifics, those statements could just be referring to the cancellation of the big plan they kick started because of Karli. Ultimately, we have no reason to think that the people living in camps with insufficient food and medicine have had their situation change. Yeah, maybe they're not being kicked to another camp, but they're still in a camp.

So you think Isaiah and Sam would be happy with "man, you made a great speech, too bad absolutely nothing changed for the refugees lol." And furthermore that the news report specifically highlighting that the GRC's approach is changing was completely irrelevant to the refugees' welfare? What would be the point of that kind of naked cynicism?

The assumption that best fits with the text (kinda my thing, see sig) is that Sam's speech had a positive impact, rather than being pointless and him being happy/optimistic for no reason.

Sure, Walker is definitely a pawn. I agree that he certainly seems to be far shorter on wisdom than Steve is generally portrayed, but Sam is also short of Steve in this portrayal. Not so dramatically bad as Walker, certainly, but Sam isn't selling that he's following up Steve's actions.

Perhaps that's the plot of Cap 4, though. Him learning to fill those shoes. Marvel doesn't seem to want too much character progression happening in the TV shows(which is damned odd, considering how much Thor and Hulk changed between films with no show....) so they may want some kind of "learning to fill the role" part of Sams first film outing as Cap.

"Equal to Steve the moment he assumes the mantle" is a very unfair bar. Steve had the title for years before he was even frozen, never mind the duration of the Infinity Saga itself. What Sam has to be now is "better than Walker" and he easily achieved that, despite having no serum in his veins.

[hungrycrow]

Agreed. I'm sure the intent wasn't to undermine Sam, and they probably had some restrictions they were working under for this series that may have hampered the story they wanted to tell. If Cap 4 is good, then eh, nobody is likely to care about this stuff too much.

Agreed. We talked about the one incident a fair bit, yeah, but there's a trend of examples that unfortunately combine to portray Sam a bit poorly.


This series *mostly* treats gunshots as relatively lethal, even to super soldiers. I mean, yeah, sure people tend to aim for shields and stuff, but when someone does take a bullet, they don't just walk it off.

Karli and Shannon both take gutshots and just walk it off. Bullets don't kill people, drama kills people. The reason the show doesn't show Sam tending to Shannon is because it would kill the emotional pacing of Karli's death to Sam taking up Karli's cause. And also because Sam performing proper first aid or following arrest procedures or whatever else he technically should be doing would be really boring.

[Tyndmyr]

So you think Isaiah and Sam would be happy with "man, you made a great speech, too bad absolutely nothing changed for the refugees lol." And furthermore that the news report specifically highlighting that the GRC's approach is changing was completely irrelevant to the refugees' welfare? What would be the point of that kind of naked cynicism?

The assumption that best fits with the text (kinda my thing, see sig) is that Sam's speech had a positive impact, rather than being pointless and him being happy/optimistic for no reason.

I have no idea why he feels that his speech is a solution. Answering the riddle of who now owns the house with "do better" is self indulgent tripe and a complete non sequitur. If that's the kind of person he is, then yes, it is 100% in character to feel good about his speech despite accomplishing nothing. After all, that's exactly how he reacted with his speech.

I don't think that's the intended portrayal, but it's absolutely consistent.

"Equal to Steve the moment he assumes the mantle" is a very unfair bar. Steve had the title for years before he was even frozen, never mind the duration of the Infinity Saga itself. What Sam has to be now is "better than Walker" and he easily achieved that, despite having no serum in his veins.

Better than Walker is an odd bar to measure against. Nobody in the audience ever accepted Walker as a legitimate Captain America. He felt off from the moment he walked on screen. This was no doubt intentional. Walker isn't supposed to be Cap.

Therefore, Walker absolutely cannot be the bar to measure against in order to be Cap.

It's also a bar that Sam is not unique in meeting. Bucky would also be a better Cap than Walker. We don't need a reason why Walker shouldn't be Cap. That is already immensely clear just from watching Walker. We need a reason why Sam should be. Steve is the legitimate Cap. The one that you, I, and everyone else watching accepts as having been Cap. That's who Sam needs to emulate.

Karli and Shannon both take gutshots and just walk it off. Bullets don't kill people, drama kills people. The reason the show doesn't show Sam tending to Shannon is because it would kill the emotional pacing of Karli's death to Sam taking up Karli's cause. And also because Sam performing proper first aid or following arrest procedures or whatever else he technically should be doing would be really boring.

Ignoring his wounded comrade also wrecks any emotional impact.

You can hardly use Shannon as an example of why it's normal that we should expect Shannon to be okay. Your only other example, Karli being shot, results in the immediate failure of her mission, losing all her vials, is saved by someone else, who then bandages her up.

The whole point is that Sam doesn't bother to do those things.

[Dragonus45]

Lets be clear, the most relevant measure I can think of for Sam is that Steve himself handed him that shield. And while I think I remember Bucky saying something about Steve not understanding what it meant for a black man to be given the shield I disagree. This was Steve who had gone back and lived the life he missed, who had watched America for years and years. He looked at Sam and saw the man he believed would do best to live up to his frankly impossibly large shadow. I've said before and will say again they did Sam as a character a bit dirty in this series, but that's because I don't think he lived up to his own character at various points not because I think he somehow needs to be the second coming of Steve Rogers from the day he gets handed the shield.

[Starbuck_II]

Better than Walker is an odd bar to measure against. Nobody in the audience ever accepted Walker as a legitimate Captain America. He felt off from the moment he walked on screen. This was no doubt intentional. Walker isn't supposed to be Cap.

Therefore, Walker absolutely cannot be the bar to measure against in order to be Cap.

It's also a bar that Sam is not unique in meeting. Bucky would also be a better Cap than Walker. We don't need a reason why Walker shouldn't be Cap. That is already immensely clear just from watching Walker. We need a reason why Sam should be. Steve is the legitimate Cap. The one that you, I, and everyone else watching accepts as having been Cap. That's who Sam needs to emulate.

I mean, I was a member of the audience. I knew they wouldn't let him be Cap for "reasons" (it is Falcon's show after all), but I accepted him.
Yeah, in an interview they intentionally made the suit look off to better make you view Walker as off. Steve's suit was molded to the actor's body so it fit snug and looked good.

I still feel partly Bucky would be a better Cap than Falcon. Yes, Bucky has anger issues, but he doesn't use "do better" as a an answer.
But I know, they won't let him be it (because Falcon's show)

[hungrycrow]

I still feel partly Bucky would be a better Cap than Falcon. Yes, Bucky has anger issues, but he doesn't use "do better" as a an answer.
But I know, they won't let him be it (because Falcon's show)

I think Sam is supposed to be a good Cap because he's empathetic. That's more important to being a leader and symbol than just being a good fighter. I wish the show let him succeed with his empathy though. Or make a better speech.

[Psyren]

I have no idea why he feels that his speech is a solution. Answering the riddle of who now owns the house with "do better" is self indulgent tripe and a complete non sequitur. If that's the kind of person he is, then yes, it is 100% in character to feel good about his speech despite accomplishing nothing. After all, that's exactly how he reacted with his speech.

I don't think that's the intended portrayal, but it's absolutely consistent.

The speech was much more than "do better"
The key point from the speech was asking "are marginalized people present in the room when you make decisions that impact them?" which is a question that goes beyond the GRC refugee vote and extends to literally every minority issue in the MCU, and is the main takeaway from the show as a whole. It's no accident that that thematic question applies not just to refugees (Karli) and POC (Sam), but overlooked veterans (Bucky AND Walker) too.

Better than Walker is an odd bar to measure against. Nobody in the audience ever accepted Walker as a legitimate Captain America. He felt off from the moment he walked on screen. This was no doubt intentional. Walker isn't supposed to be Cap.

Therefore, Walker absolutely cannot be the bar to measure against in order to be Cap.

The audience knows that and immediately rejected Walker, but that's irrelevant in the context of the show. In-universe, the Senate committee that originally appointed Walker are the ones who decide who get the mantle, and Sam's job was to convince them. You're right, that's not as high a bar as living up to Steve's ideals, but he has time to do that now. The goal is not to match Steve on his first mission, the goal is to show that he has potential, which he did.

[Tyndmyr]

I think Sam is supposed to be a good Cap because he's empathetic. That's more important to being a leader and symbol than just being a good fighter. I wish the show let him succeed with his empathy though. Or make a better speech.

Success through empathy would be an interesting view to take, sure. As you say, it's weakened by not letting it ever work. I don't think that's the only path that would work, but it might be a fun one, especially as it might clash with other Avengers methods of problem solving down the line, giving some interesting perspectives and conflict.

The speech was much more than "do better"
The key point from the speech was asking "are marginalized people present in the room when you make decisions that impact them?" which is a question that goes beyond the GRC refugee vote and extends to literally every minority issue in the MCU, and is the main takeaway from the show as a whole. It's no accident that that thematic question applies not just to refugees (Karli) and POC (Sam), but overlooked veterans (Bucky AND Walker) too.

And is a new council formed, consisting of members from those parties? Or are the decisions ultimately all made by the same ol' council?

The "do better" was actually a direct quote, I might add. It's exactly what Sam literally said as his big point he's making. He never actually tells them to do anything differently.

The audience knows that and immediately rejected Walker, but that's irrelevant in the context of the show. In-universe, the Senate committee that originally appointed Walker are the ones who decide who get the mantle, and Sam's job was to convince them. You're right, that's not as high a bar as living up to Steve's ideals, but he has time to do that now. The goal is not to match Steve on his first mission, the goal is to show that he has potential, which he did.

Oh, I don't care at all if Falcon is convincing to them.

I care if he's convincing to us. The show is ultimately trying to show the viewer Sam's worthiness to be Cap. The approval of some senate committee is irrelevant.

[Dragonus45]

I care if he's convincing to us. The show is ultimately trying to show the viewer Sam's worthiness to be Cap. The approval of some senate committee is irrelevant.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that you are wrong here. The show is not about showing Sam to be worthy of the mantle to the viewers. The entire core conflict of him giving up the shield while everyone else gets mad/annoyed by that decision doesn't really work as well if we aren't already going in with the belief that it is right for him to have it. Instead, the show wanted his arc to be about reaching the point he himself felt both worthy of following Steve's footsteps, but also that the shield and what it represents in America and it's history was worthy of being wielded by him.

[Tyndmyr]

He isn't conflicted about giving up the shield. In the pilot episode, he is already back to wishing he hadn't. There is no internal conflict there.

[Dragonus45]

He isn't conflicted about giving up the shield. In the pilot episode, he is already back to wishing he hadn't. There is no internal conflict there.

He was wishing he didn't give it to the US sure, but his feelings about now wanting to use it himself changed much more slowly. When he got it back he immediately tried to give it away again.

[Tyndmyr]

Who's he giving it to? He doesn't seem to be at all conflicted about wanting the shield when he faces Walker.

[Dragonus45]

Who's he giving it to? He doesn't seem to be at all conflicted about wanting the shield when he faces Walker.

He tried to give it Isiah Bradley at first but, yes by the end of the series he had made the decision to keep it. That would be the point

[Psyren]

And is a new council formed, consisting of members from those parties? Or are the decisions ultimately all made by the same ol' council?

As I said before, I don't know the details - and more importantly, neither do you. Something about the GRC changes and the (non-cynical) people are happier.

The "do better" was actually a direct quote, I might add.

I never said it wasn't. What I said is that you're focusing on the wrong part of that speech.

I care if he's convincing to us.

By "us" do you mean you? Because by all accounts, you definitely don't mean me.

He isn't conflicted about giving up the shield. In the pilot episode, he is already back to wishing he hadn't. There is no internal conflict there.

"Maybe I shouldn't have put it in a museum. Maybe I should have destroyed it." - Sam, episode 3.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but that's called internal conflict.

[Sapphire Guard]

Destroy vibranium? How?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Oh, I don't care at all if Falcon is convincing to them.

I care if he's convincing to us. The show is ultimately trying to show the viewer Sam's worthiness to be Cap. The approval of some senate committee is irrelevant.

Second this. Sam was fine as the Falcon, so if they want to do a complete rebranding of him so they can sell me Captain America 4-6 with his face on it they have to do a better job then they did. They want to coast along on the name recognition, they have to put the work in.

Destroy vibranium? How?

I had that thought too. I suppose if he dropped it into a volcano, Mt. Doom style, even if it wasn’t destroyed any would-be successors would have a difficult time fishing it out again.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
I suppose if he dropped it into a volcano, Mt. Doom style....

Gorrammit, you beat me to it.

[Mechalich]

I think a big part of the problem is that the show broadly fails to define what Captain America should be, in the context of this world that they're created where the blip happened.

We could talk about what Cap ought to represent on our Earth, in 2021, if he existed (I mean not here, because it would be incredibly political, but a theoretical discussion is possible), but this post-Blip Earth is so different from our own it's really difficult to understand what Cap needs to be in this new world.

The original Cap was a WWII-era hero. He punched Nazis in the face. That's about as straightforward as it gets. And so long as he was punching aliens in the face as in The Avengers, or genocidal robots as in Age of Ultron, or Thanos in Infinity War and Endgame, that was just fine. The US is very much down with a self-sacrificing dude who punches clear-cut evil in the face.

The Falcon & Winter Soldier doesn't involve any clear cut evil. The Flag Smashers engage in just enough gratuitous violence to make it clear they have to be stopped but they're concerns are clearly grounded in some very real and complex needs that simply cannot be addressed by punching anything in the face. As far as the show goes the big difference between Sam and Walker is that Walker punched too hard that one time, but both men (and Bucky too) were faced with a problem that ultimately doesn't fit their skill set. That's why ultimately Sam is left making a speech - the idea is that Captain America has a Bully Pulpit.

And honestly, year, Captain America probably does have a bully pulpit, but even if one is rather generous in terms of the persuasive power of speechifying in the 21st century, it's still a matter of calling on someone else to exert themselves to fix the issue rather than fixing it directly. This is a general problem for many superhero narratives, their abilities often boil down to no more than face-punching, and there's a limit to how much you can do for the world by face-punching.

[Psyren]

Destroy vibranium? How?

I took destroy to mean "do away with forever" rather than literally shattering it.

[Dragonus45]

I took destroy to mean "do away with forever" rather than literally shattering it.

I mean actually destroying it could be a real option. He certainly knows all the right people to do it.

[Tyndmyr]

I think a big part of the problem is that the show broadly fails to define what Captain America should be, in the context of this world that they're created where the blip happened.

We could talk about what Cap ought to represent on our Earth, in 2021, if he existed (I mean not here, because it would be incredibly political, but a theoretical discussion is possible), but this post-Blip Earth is so different from our own it's really difficult to understand what Cap needs to be in this new world.

To some extent, the arc of his films chart out exactly that for Steve. Winter Soldier started to separate his sense of nationalism from his sense of morality, as Hydra threatened quite a lot of the established order, and Civil War took that a step further. It ended with Cap deciding to...just be Steve and live a normal life.

I'm in agreement with your post overall, but I think part of the struggle here comes because while the MCU isn't about to give up on the obviously profitable IP that is Captain America, they sort of did end his story. I think they're scrambling around a bit, trying to figure out how to tell a new one, but don't really have the grand concept fleshed out yet. Falcon doesn't yet have a grand struggle like Steve's man-out-of-time tale. The trouble is a bit compounded because the MCU doesn't like to make its TV shows required watching for the movie. So it's difficult for them to kick off something significant because it'd be likely to break that barrier in the process.

[Psyren]

The trouble is a bit compounded because the MCU doesn't like to make its TV shows required watching for the movie.

That was the case before WandaVision, but now that they have the movies and shows all in one convenient place, they likely feel comfortable heightening that expectation a bit. I don't expect Captain America 4 will spend a lot of time explaining why Sam is in the role and how he got his new tech, any more than DS2 will spend a lot of time on where Wanda's spiffy new outfit came from. (There'll be perhaps a couple of brief lines about it but that's it.)

[Rodin]

That was the case before WandaVision, but now that they have the movies and shows all in one convenient place, they likely feel comfortable heightening that expectation a bit. I don't expect Captain America 4 will spend a lot of time explaining why Sam is in the role and how he got his new tech, any more than DS2 will spend a lot of time on where Wanda's spiffy new outfit came from. (There'll be perhaps a couple of brief lines about it but that's it.)

Falcon and the Winter Soldier was mostly self-contained. Anyone going from Endgame to CA4 won't feel like they've missed anything - Steve gave Sam the shield at the end and now here he is with a spiffy new outfit and the shield. Bucky didn't change much, he just sorted out some mental issues that a casual viewer can assume he took care of during his stay in Wakanda. U.S. Agent and the Power Broker (as well as Countess whats-her-name) could all stay as TV-only antagonists and the moviegoing public would be none the wiser.

WandaVision is a totally different matter. It radically changed Wanda's relationship to the rest of the Avengers and gave superpowers to someone who is highly likely to show up in an upcoming movie. I would expect at least a brief summary of WandaVision to give some hope of not being lost - kind of like the summary of the Infinity Stones in Endgame did for anyone who missed the chain of custody of said stones across a decade-long franchise.

[Psyren]

U.S. Agent and the Power Broker (as well as Countess whats-her-name) could all stay as TV-only antagonists and the moviegoing public would be none the wiser.

Sure, but my point is that now they don't have to. And Val is the most current embodiment of the biggest challenge Steve faced (well, aside from a genocidal alien god) and that Sam will need to reckon with as well - i.e. when does it make sense for Captain America to disobey orders and go against his country's wishes? I doubt she will stay as tv-only, and for that matter I doubt Sharon will either.

WandaVision is a totally different matter. It radically changed Wanda's relationship to the rest of the Avengers and gave superpowers to someone who is highly likely to show up in an upcoming movie. I would expect at least a brief summary of WandaVision to give some hope of not being lost - kind of like the summary of the Infinity Stones in Endgame did for anyone who missed the chain of custody of said stones across a decade-long franchise.

Yeah I'm sure there will be some flavor of WV recap in DS2. But I also expect they won't spend much time on it, and for good reason.

[Talakeal]

Yeah I'm sure there will be some flavor of WV recap in DS2. But I also expect they won't spend much time on it, and for good reason.

I am now imagining the entirety of DS2 just being Benedict Cumberbatch trying to explain the entire plot of Wandavision to a group of confused listeners.

[Starbuck_II]

WandaVision is a totally different matter. It radically changed Wanda's relationship to the rest of the Avengers and gave superpowers to someone who is highly likely to show up in an upcoming movie. I would expect at least a brief summary of WandaVision to give some hope of not being lost - kind of like the summary of the Infinity Stones in Endgame did for anyone who missed the chain of custody of said stones across a decade-long franchise.

As an aside, I'm still sad Null Pietro was not real (call him Null because he wasn't real Pietro/Quicksilver).
I liked the X-Men's Qicksilver actor.

[Psyren]

I am now imagining the entirety of DS2 just being Benedict Cumberbatch trying to explain the entire plot of Wandavision to a group of confused listeners.

The thing about WV is that explaining what happened there doesn't actually take that much effort; it only feels a lot more complicated than it is simply because we spent more than half of it in as much of a daze as she herself was, trying to piece it all together.

Once you know that she has the powers of a cosmic force, and a series of consecutive traumas in her life caused that power to go haywire and create a pocket reality, you can focus on just the few details of said pocket reality that mattered and disregard the (many) red herrings and extraneous details that came with it. She brought her destroyed synthezoid husband back to life, had kids with him that went away when the anomaly did, attracted the attention of both a malevolent ancient witch and a shady government organization, and so on. Monica herself (or some other witness like Darcy) can explain her own origin.