The Falcon & Winter Soldier

[Psyren]

That's really splitting hairs

It's really not, they're different characters.

Except they had a functioning time machine right after that, that they used to send Steve back to return the stones and mjolinor back to their proper places in the timestream.

He didn't have the suit when he came back. It's safe to say this method of travel is done.

[Palanan]

Excellent new episode, they really folded a lot into it.

Spoiler: New Cap

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Despite the rather goofy first look at the new Cap, here he starts out being surprisingly decent and sympathetic. For someone who says he doesn’t like meetings and public appearances, he’s perfect at interviews.

I’m a little surprised that he’s so public, though. I always had the impression that Steve Rogers and Tony Stark were the exceptions among superheroes in being publicly known—but then, Sam didn’t mind if the banker knew he was Falcon, so maybe the secret identity isn’t what it used to be?

Spoiler: Flying Falcon Air

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So, a former Soviet assassin and Hydra operative shows up at a US airbase, banters with his not-buddy a couple minutes, and suddenly gets to hitch a ride on a US military aircraft? And participate in a top-secret, highly sensitive mission? And then use the plane as their personal flying Uber?

That’s…usually not how that works with military flights. Unless Sam’s orders allow for a +1?

Spoiler: Best Line

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White Panther.

So glad they didn’t spoil that in the trailers.

Spoiler: GRC

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Because when an organization has “Global” and “Council” in its name, you know everything’s gonna be alright.

Also, we have a better sense of how things are playing out after the Snap. Refugee camps around the world, attempts at resettlement, and a nice motivational poster in the police station.

And we also have a slightly better idea of why some people thought life was better during the Blip—apparently because the people who had formerly been in power had that power disrupted, to the benefit of some (though not all) of the powerless.

Spoiler: Isaiah

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Did not see that coming, and very interesting indeed. Apparently Bucky wasn’t completely forthcoming with Cap after all…although you can’t blame him for not wanting to talk about his Hydra days.

But it does make you wonder what else he’s been holding back.

Spoiler: New Cap's New Sidekick

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Was anyone else hoping that Sam would make a Battlestar Galactica reference?

Also, what are the odds that the new Cap also has a black sidekick? Couldn’t he have a big Samoan as a partner, just to shake things up?

Spoiler: About Those Bad Guys...

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The Flag Smashers are coming across as very sympathetic here. They’re not hurting anyone, they’re supplying medicine to displaced refugees, they’re making heroic self-sacrifices and showing empathy to each other and strangers alike. As Hawkeye might say, I’m starting to root for them.

Also, nice to see Enfys Nest again. Although she's starting to be typecast as "presumed villain who turns out to be unexpectedly heroic."

Even if, in the case of Karli Morgenthau, she does seem to take a lot of enjoyment in punching the daylights out of superheroes. Presumably the Flag Smashers see superheroes as embodiments of the oppressive power structures of outmoded nation-states, which will make them more amenable to Zemo's manipulation.

Spoiler: The Baron

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Nice tease of Zemo at the end, glad that they’re introducing him relatively early on. No last-minute reveal with a catchy tune for this villain.

[Gallowglass]

It's really not, they're different characters.

It really is, but now we are just saying "uh-huh! uh-uh!" to each other so I'll drop it.

He didn't have the suit when he came back. It's safe to say this method of travel is done.

Uh... so you think they can't make another suit? Or that they don't have all the OTHER suits from their first foray? That's... okay man.... you just really want to be right, go for it. I'm tagging out.

[Sholos]

That's really splitting hairs.

It's not, though. This Gamora has none of the experiences of the past several years. None of the same relationship building.

[BRC]

That's really splitting hairs




Except they had a functioning time machine right after that, that they used to send Steve back to return the stones and mjolinor back to their proper places in the timestream.

I'd say it's deliberately ambiguous.

All knowledge of the process could be gone forever, or Tony could have left backups of the blueprints.

now, this episode

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I thought this was great.

We've got another young avenger introduced! Elijah Bradley, Isiah's Grandson. They're also doing some version of Red White and Black with Isiah Bradley, which is interesting.


US Agent appears a well-intentioned goober for now, but that musical sting on the "Stay out of my way" Line implies that he's set up to become a true antagonist.



The Flag Smashers are...interesting. IIRC, Flag-Smasher in the comics isn't that great a character, he's basically supposed to be anti-captain america. Captain America is patriotism, Flag-Smasher hates the idea of nations.

But, especially as Captain America has shifted away from the idea of Patriotic Devotion to the State, Flag Smasher doesn't really do that much?

These Flag-Smashers have a deliberately vague ideology. It sounds like there was a bit of post-blip global unification in the name of mutual aid, which makes sense, especially in areas like Europe that have a lot of small countries. The Flag Smashers have been depicted as operating in central and eastern europe, where there are a lot of small countries, so it could make sense that the Blip would lead to a breakdown of national identities as the remnants of nations start forming mutual aid groups out of neccessity, which then gets suddenly reset with the Unblip, as a bunch of people show back up having undergone five years of struggle and bonding.

Like, so far we havn't really gotten into what the Flag Smashers are trying to do besides "One world, one people"/ what they felt was better during the blip. I can make things up, but hopefully they actually get into that, rather than just "Grr, Scary Terrorists in hockey masks doing Bad Stuff, but they think they're Good Guys!"

[Sholos]

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There were a couple of things I really liked. New Cap seems to believe that he's helping out in tye best way which could easily lead him into well intentioned bad guy territory. Bucky assuming the Flag Smashers were transporting weapons when really it was medicine was a nice touch and a great way to make the Flag Smashers sympathetic. I think my favorite line in the episode was Bucky revealing that he'd read The Hobbit. In 1937, when it came out.

[Psyren]

Uh... so you think they can't make another suit? Or that they don't have all the OTHER suits from their first foray?

Yes and yes. This is pretty clearly the case from Endgame.

It's not, though. This Gamora has none of the experiences of the past several years. None of the same relationship building.

^ Exactly.

Spoiler: New Cap

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Despite the rather goofy first look at the new Cap, here he starts out being surprisingly decent and sympathetic. For someone who says he doesn’t like meetings and public appearances, he’s perfect at interviews.

I’m a little surprised that he’s so public, though. I always had the impression that Steve Rogers and Tony Stark were the exceptions among superheroes in being publicly known—but then, Sam didn’t mind if the banker knew he was Falcon, so maybe the secret identity isn’t what it used to be?

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Yeah, he's kinda douchey/pushy but not evil. However, likely at some point he'll get whatever ghetto serum the FS are using, and that will accentuate the worse parts of his personality. In fact, even the real serum does that, per First Avenger, so I can't imagine whatever the Power Broker is doling out will fare better.

Spoiler: Flying Falcon Air

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So, a former Soviet assassin and Hydra operative shows up at a US airbase, banters with his not-buddy a couple minutes, and suddenly gets to hitch a ride on a US military aircraft? And participate in a top-secret, highly sensitive mission? And then use the plane as their personal flying Uber?

That’s…usually not how that works with military flights. Unless Sam’s orders allow for a +1?

The rules for "free agents" seem looser overall.

Spoiler: Isaiah

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Did not see that coming, and very interesting indeed. Apparently Bucky wasn’t completely forthcoming with Cap after all…although you can’t blame him for not wanting to talk about his Hydra days.

But it does make you wonder what else he’s been holding back.

I was wondering if and how they'd work this character in. Marvel did not disappoint

Spoiler: New Cap's New Sidekick

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Was anyone else hoping that Sam would make a Battlestar Galactica reference?

Also, what are the odds that the new Cap also has a black sidekick? Couldn’t he have a big Samoan as a partner, just to shake things up?

Given the comics they came from, the odds were pretty good actually. In the mainline continuity, those two have been associated with one another since the 80's.

Spoiler: About Those Bad Guys...

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The Flag Smashers are coming across as very sympathetic here. They’re not hurting anyone, they’re supplying medicine to displaced refugees, they’re making heroic self-sacrifices and showing empathy to each other and strangers alike. As Hawkeye might say, I’m starting to root for them.

Also, nice to see Enfys Nest again. Although she's starting to be typecast as "presumed villain who turns out to be unexpectedly heroic."

Even if, in the case of Kari Morgenthau, she does seem to take a lot of enjoyment in punching the daylights out of superheroes. Presumably the Flag Smashers see superheroes as embodiments of the oppressive power structures of outmoded nation-states, which will make them more amenable to Zemo's manipulation.

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I expect the "true villain," at least to start, will be the Power Broker and his men. Yes the Flagsmashers are sympathetic, but it also looks like they're in deep with some pretty nasty sorts.

By the time the PB is out of the picture, Zemo will have made his move.

Spoiler

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There were a couple of things I really liked. New Cap seems to believe that he's helping out in tye best way which could easily lead him into well intentioned bad guy territory. Bucky assuming the Flag Smashers were transporting weapons when really it was medicine was a nice touch and a great way to make the Flag Smashers sympathetic. I think my favorite line in the episode was Bucky revealing that he'd read The Hobbit. In 1937, when it came out.

While it's a cute line, I believe the Hobbit didn't make it to the US until 1938. I suppose Bucky could have been on tour in England though.

[BRC]

Spoiler

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I expect the "true villain," at least to start, will be the Power Broker and his men. Yes the Flagsmashers are sympathetic, but it also looks like they're in deep with some pretty nasty sorts.

By the time the PB is out of the picture, Zemo will have made his move.

.

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Hrmmm, that doesn't sound unreasonable

Flagsmashers steal bootleg serum from the Power Broker. Power Broker is probably ex-HYDRA, turned arms dealer selling old hydra supertech.

Zemo leads Sam and Bucky to the Power Broker, but escapes. Sympathetic Flag Smasher Leader girl dies, potentially killed by U.S.Agent.

Zemo takes her place in the Flag Smashers, he's smart and charismatic and turns them to his purposes. The world is back to idolizing the Avengers, which he hates, so he might target the legacy of Captain America?

Or, otherwise be sympathetic to the Flag Smasher's Ideology. They think the world was better pre-blip. The world loves the Avengers for the Unblip. I don't know what his endgame will be, but I imagine Sam and Bucky will fight him on top of a train or something.

Final Battle is three-way showdown between our Heroes (maybe helped by Isiah's grandson, depending on how much we're going to introduce him as a Young Avenger), John Walker, and Zemo/The Flag Smashers.

Walker is going to take a Heel turn real hard at some point.

[ecarden]

Generally enjoyed it:

Spoiler: Flagsmashers

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Hard to evaluate their morality without a fuller understanding of where the medicine was going and where it ended up. To steal both analogies from Firefly, could be them robbing the inner system hospital which would cost credits, but not lives, or the outer system mining colony which would cost lives.

Spoiler: Sam's Job

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Okay...I'm confused. In the first episode, he was essentially a mercenary for the US, so use of military equipment and support made sense. Now he's a 'free agent' but he's still using the planes and such? At first I thought that the entire Flagsmasher's mission was fully sanctioned, which might explain Bucky being allowed along depending on contract terms. But then New-Cap had to track Redwing instead of just asking where they were?

Spoiler: Backup/Germany

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Okay, if they were free agents in Germany, then we have a lot of problems legally, but if they weren't, then why wasn't there backup available? This is one of my bigger complaints for superhero/military fiction which desperately wants to cast people as underdogs when they ought to simply be able to pick up the phone and get enough bodies to swamp any enemy.

Spoiler: Borders

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Honestly, at this point I'd sort of like the Flagsmashers to point out that all they want is for everyone else to have the freedoms which the Avengers/ex-avengers apparently get.

Spoiler: New-Cap

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I actually hope they don't go the antagonist route and instead just have him decide once he's told (did Sam even tell anyone except maybe Bucky what Steve wanted?) what Steve's wishes were, to honor them. Though I suppose antagonist or well-intentioned extremist is better than the other big option I see which would be for him to learn the error of his foolish, law-abiding ways and converting to the cult of the Avengers uber alles.

Spoiler: Bucky and Sam and Counseling

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Okay, I actually really liked that scene, partly for the humor, but also for a little hint of selfishness from Bucky. 'If he was wrong about you, he could have been wrong about me' (from memory, not certain of phrasing) was something I actually found pretty effecting and hope gets addressed later on.

Spoiler: Profiling

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This actually worked much better for me than the bank scene, because there's not the distraction of 'wait, what is his economic situation' or 'what is the economy doing after the snap and the blip?' which make it real hard to evaluate that scene. The little click you can almost hear when Sam switches over into the 'one of the good ones' category in the cop's mind is especially effective for me.

Spoiler: Zemo

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Uncertain if this has been spoiled in interviews or something, but I'd actually find it most effecting if Zemo didn't escape, or even try. The man got what he wanted. The Avengers are broken or dead. The survivors are mercenaries, or otherwise subject to state authority. Tony is dead. Steve is gone. I'd be most down with him simply happily assisting the 'dogs of the military' (to steal a phrase) in hunting down some rebels. Honestly, the only remaining revenge I'd want in his shoes might be on Wanda.

Also, do we know why he's in a random prison somewhere? Black Panther caught him with no witnesses. I'd have assumed he was locked in a cell somewhere in Wakanda. Or even better, getting some sort of therapy in Wakanda as it seems pointless to keep him from suiciding only to dump him in a cell.

[BRC]

Sam's Job

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Sam seems to be, basically, a vaguely defined mercenary in the employ of the US government.

My guess is that the army pays him to go into places and do Superhero Things, providing logistical and tactical support. He gets away with it, basically, on his reputation as an Avenger.

Like, he's a "Free Agent", able to operate without regard for international treaties, because he's not technically part of the army

But he's basically part of the Army. His actual position is likely deliberately very vague, operating with as many loopholes as possible so the US government can say "Well, we didn't send soldiers into your country without permission"

They just flew a cargo plane over your country (Which they probably had permission to do) and gave Sam Wilson some satellite images and intelligence (Which they have anyway), and he chose to jump out of the plane and do superhero stuff.

Oh, and, independently, he's getting paid as a Consultant or whatever, NOT to jump out of planes and punch terrorists, he does that on his own officially speaking, and you let him get away with it because he's an Avenger and you trust him, personally.

Nobody believes it, but that's not the point. The U.S Air Force hasn't found a legal loophole that makes this okay, they've found somebody with enough public reputation that nobody is going to object to this guy, personally, beating up terrorists in their territory, even if he was flown there on an American Plane, with an American Soldier in his ear, and with money from the American Government in his pocket.

Up until the point that he does something objectionable, at which point they disavow him as a rogue agent and he gets sent to Superjail.

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Sam's Job

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Okay...I'm confused. In the first episode, he was essentially a mercenary for the US, so use of military equipment and support made sense. Now he's a 'free agent' but he's still using the planes and such? At first I thought that the entire Flagsmasher's mission was fully sanctioned, which might explain Bucky being allowed along depending on contract terms. But then New-Cap had to track Redwing instead of just asking where they were?

Spoiler

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The sanction in this case was likely "Torres and Sam can grab a helicopter and head to a hotspot as needed" without having to declare their destination and wait for approval ahead of time. This would mean the mission was allowed, but that the brass wouldn't necessarily know where Sam is moment to moment - unless they track his Redwing drone at John's request.

Spoiler: Backup/Germany

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Okay, if they were free agents in Germany, then we have a lot of problems legally, but if they weren't, then why wasn't there backup available? This is one of my bigger complaints for superhero/military fiction which desperately wants to cast people as underdogs when they ought to simply be able to pick up the phone and get enough bodies to swamp any enemy.

Getting backup/bodies takes time that your targets can use to scatter into the wind. I would imagine that part of the point of having free agents in the first place is that they have, well, agency to respond quickly and with some amount of their own discretion, then file a report after the fact.

Spoiler: Borders

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Honestly, at this point I'd sort of like the Flagsmashers to point out that all they want is for everyone else to have the freedoms which the Avengers/ex-avengers apparently get.

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For what it's worth, I doubt this series will end with "the Flagsmashers are 100% in the wrong and we need stronger borders/national identities than ever!" The fact that they are being set up as beholden to a Bigger Bad supports this.

Spoiler: New-Cap

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I actually hope they don't go the antagonist route and instead just have him decide once he's told (did Sam even tell anyone except maybe Bucky what Steve wanted?) what Steve's wishes were, to honor them. Though I suppose antagonist or well-intentioned extremist is better than the other big option I see which would be for him to learn the error of his foolish, law-abiding ways and converting to the cult of the Avengers uber alles.

Let's get down to brass tacks here:

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The clear arc being set up is that, like in the comics, Sam is the ideal choice to be the next Captain America, and wield the shield (hey it rhymes.) Not only does this make sense for his own character, proving worthy and being chosen will also serve as a vindication of what Isaiah Bradley was put through by his government.

For this to happen, John either has to die, turn evil, or quit. Possibly even all three.

As for him not being that bad a guy right now - we know for a fact that super soldiery enhances all your traits, including moral (or immoral) ones. Steve was the perfect candidate because he didn't have a selfish bone in his body, and he was willing to do what was right even with no powers at all. One clear difference between Steve and John is that the former would never seek out super soldier serum to get an edge, especially if there are any dangers associated with doing so - but I strongly suspect that John will do exactly that.

Spoiler: Bucky and Sam and Counseling

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Okay, I actually really liked that scene, partly for the humor, but also for a little hint of selfishness from Bucky. 'If he was wrong about you, he could have been wrong about me' (from memory, not certain of phrasing) was something I actually found pretty effecting and hope gets addressed later on.

Easily my favorite scene this episode!

Spoiler: Profiling

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This actually worked much better for me than the bank scene, because there's not the distraction of 'wait, what is his economic situation' or 'what is the economy doing after the snap and the blip?' which make it real hard to evaluate that scene. The little click you can almost hear when Sam switches over into the 'one of the good ones' category in the cop's mind is especially effective for me.

Easily my second-favorite scene.

Spoiler: Zemo

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Uncertain if this has been spoiled in interviews or something, but I'd actually find it most effecting if Zemo didn't escape, or even try. The man got what he wanted. The Avengers are broken or dead. The survivors are mercenaries, or otherwise subject to state authority. Tony is dead. Steve is gone. I'd be most down with him simply happily assisting the 'dogs of the military' (to steal a phrase) in hunting down some rebels. Honestly, the only remaining revenge I'd want in his shoes might be on Wanda.

Also, do we know why he's in a random prison somewhere? Black Panther caught him with no witnesses. I'd have assumed he was locked in a cell somewhere in Wakanda. Or even better, getting some sort of therapy in Wakanda as it seems pointless to keep him from suiciding only to dump him in a cell.

That ship has indeed sailed. From the trailer,

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we clearly see Zemo outside, visiting a Sokovian memorial, and even carrying his signature purple headsock. He's also the one giving the ominous voiceover about hating supes. So he definitely gets out at some point.

Interestingly, hating supers is clearly not the Flagsmashers' MO - quite the opposite - so Zemo's agenda has yet to come into focus. God help us if he meets up with Mordo.

[ecarden]

Screwed up the quote below. The responses are...responses. I also address BRC's comment. Sorry about that folks.

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The sanction in this case was likely "Torres and Sam can grab a helicopter and head to a hotspot as needed" without having to declare their destination and wait for approval ahead of time. This would mean the mission was allowed, but that the brass wouldn't necessarily know where Sam is moment to moment - unless they track his Redwing drone at John's request.

Spoiler: Response--Sanction

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I don't think so, to this and the above comment because in the first episode he was being called back from crossing the Libyan border. Also, maybe this is just an MCU thing, but the military doesn't send people and equipment out without knowing where they're going and what they're doing.

Spoiler: Backup

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Getting backup/bodies takes time that your targets can use to scatter into the wind. I would imagine that part of the point of having free agents in the first place is that they have, well, agency to respond quickly and with some amount of their own discretion, then file a report after the fact.

Spoiler: Backup-Response

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I agree, but that's just the other thing that annoys me. They're in big trucks and have no ranged weapons. Sam can fly. Following them and arranging an intercept should not be difficult.

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The clear arc being set up is that, like in the comics, Sam is the ideal choice to be the next Captain America, and wield the shield (hey it rhymes.) Not only does this make sense for his own character, proving worthy and being chosen will also serve as a vindication of what Isaiah Bradley was put through by his government.

For this to happen, John either has to die, turn evil, or quit. Possibly even all three.

As for him not being that bad a guy right now - we know for a fact that super soldiery enhances all your traits, including moral (or immoral) ones. Steve was the perfect candidate because he didn't have a selfish bone in his body, and he was willing to do what was right even with no powers at all. One clear difference between Steve and John is that the former would never seek out super soldier serum to get an edge, especially if there are any dangers associated with doing so - but I strongly suspect that John will do exactly that.

Spoiler: response--New Cap

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Oh, I agree, that's where they're going. I just think it's bad and feeds into the laziest standard MCU tropes. More generally, I'd like to see less 'jumping off the slippery slope' and more 'no, I actually have a point and a moral compass that you have to deal with and can't just ignore because I suddenly turn evil/mean.' It drives me up the wall the way so much entertainment tees up interesting questions than to avoid having to take a position reveals that the party asking is evil/hypocritical/mind controlled/somehow-not-in-prison Thunderbolt Ross.

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we clearly see Zemo outside, visiting a Sokovian memorial, and even carrying his signature purple headsock. He's also the one giving the ominous voiceover about hating supes. So he definitely gets out at some point.

Interestingly, hating supers is clearly not the Flagsmashers' MO - quite the opposite - so Zemo's agenda has yet to come into focus. God help us if he meets up with Mordo.

Spoiler: Zemo-Response

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Again, I agree that the most likely thing is he escapes somehow and we dodge the questions raised by the Flagsmashers in favor of a fight against Zemo/Power Broker. I just think that's not nearly as interesting as it might be.

Maybe I'm cynical after Wandavision especially, but though I'm enjoying the ride at this point I'm not expecting anything deeper.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by hungrycrow
Also Gamora.

On the question of Gamora, the individual in Endgame is a completely different person from the one who’s been part of the Guardians the past few years. This was made very clear when she kicked Peter Quill in his zargnuts just because he tried to gently touch her face.

The Gamora from 2014 is from an alternate timeline, so she has no experience of Quill talking Drax down from killing her in the Kyln, and no experience of escaping the Kyln with the Guardians-to-be, much less of coming to terms with Nebula and her own role in the atrocities of Thanos.

At best, Quill is going to have to start all over with her, and she’s going to be very different from the Gamora he knew, who had already broken with Thanos before they met. This Gamora is a separate individual, meaning the prior Gamora hasn’t actually come back.

Originally Posted by BRC
Up until the point that he does something objectionable, at which point they disavow him as a rogue agent and he gets sent to Superjail.

Again.

[BRC]

Standard superhero revolving door.

You are a Beloved Hero who can Do No Wrong until public opinion turns against you, at which point you go to superjail, break out of superjail, live as a Renegade Doing What Must Be Done, biding your time until the world needs you to save it, at which point you go back to being Beloved in the public eye.

[Psyren]

Screwed up the quote below. The responses are...responses. I also address BRC's comment. Sorry about that folks.

Spoiler: Zemo-Response

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Again, I agree that the most likely thing is he escapes somehow and we dodge the questions raised by the Flagsmashers in favor of a fight against Zemo/Power Broker. I just think that's not nearly as interesting as it might be.

Maybe I'm cynical after Wandavision especially, but though I'm enjoying the ride at this point I'm not expecting anything deeper.

"Knowing where they're going and what they're doing" is not the same as a gps tracking chip though.

I totally agree that a serious look at the borders question (which i won't elaborate on further on this forum) posed to a mainstream audience of tens if not hundreds of millions across the country would be absolutely fantastic. But this is Disney we're talking about, even rocking the boat this much is more than I hoped for from a corporate superhero show.

As for John Walker:

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I think "even the good serum can make you bad if you were already a bad seed" having been set up 10 years prior to this is sufficient foreshadowing - don't you?

On the question of Gamora, the individual in Endgame is a completely different person from the one who’s been part of the Guardians the past few years. This was made very clear when she kicked Peter Quill in his zargnuts just because he tried to gently touch her face.

The Gamora from 2014 is from an alternate timeline, so she has no experience of Quill talking Drax down from killing her in the Kyln, and no experience of escaping the Kyln with the Guardians-to-be, much less of coming to terms with Nebula and her own role in the atrocities of Thanos.

At best, Quill is going to have to start all over with her, and she’s going to be very different from the Gamora he knew, who had already broken with Thanos before they met. This Gamora is a separate individual, meaning the prior Gamora hasn’t actually come back.

Correct.

With that said - it's not a total blank slate. Neo-Gamora is still one that was on the cusp of breaking with Thanos' evil goals anyway, and one that was clearly willing to both listen to and believe our Nebula's account of the years she missed. Quill has work to do, but this one will likely at least know what they've been through together even if she didn't experience it herself.

The Loki we'll get in the Loki series is likely in a similar boat - he'll have none of the character development he got in Thor 2 and 3, but that doesn't mean he won't learn about the exploits of his now-dead former self. (But mostly, I'm just looking forward to Hiddleston and Owen Wilson having hilarious interactions at Marvel's version of the Temps Aeternalis.)

[Draconi Redfir]

call me stupid, but i like that this show clears up weather or not Bucky was a Super Soldier. Even with his shield-catching thing in winter soldier, i was never fully clear on if he actually was, or if he just had really good training and a metal arm.

[Psyren]

call me stupid, but i like that this show clears up weather or not Bucky was a Super Soldier. Even with his shield-catching thing in winter soldier, i was never fully clear on if he actually was, or if he just had really good training and a metal arm.

Nah, it's pretty obvious he was back in Civil War. The scene where he ambushed the Starks to murder them, he didn't just do it because HYDRA wanted them gone, he did it in order to get additional super soldier compound from their trunk - the goal of which was to, in his words "make more Winter Soldiers." He was even used in their training at the Siberia compound.

There were other moments too, like the chase scene in Austria, where he, Cap and T'challa outran a bunch of cars on foot, or his trigger scene with Zemo when he kicks Cap through elevator doors and does other such feats with his non-metal limbs. He's a super-soldier, no question.

(This does raise an interesting question... if Howard Stark cracked the super-soldier compound back then - even an imperfect version - is that how the Power Broker, whoever that is, was able to get his/her/their hands on it? Or are they perhaps former HYDRA researchers from Siberia?)


EDIT: Found the specific scene, right before the airport fight:

Cap: "You're after the wrong guy."
Tony: "Your judgement is askew. Your old war buddy killed innocent people yesterday-"
Cap: "And there are five more super-soldiers just like him! I can't let the doctor find them first Tony, I can't."

[Wraith]

Spoiler: Bucky and Sam and Counseling

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Okay, I actually really liked that scene, partly for the humor, but also for a little hint of selfishness from Bucky. 'If he was wrong about you, he could have been wrong about me' (from memory, not certain of phrasing) was something I actually found pretty effecting and hope gets addressed later on.

I thought that was a great line, too. Not just because it was a good line and it was a peek into Bucky's motivations and mentality, but because it was refreshingly direct.

If this were an MCU movie, that line wouldn't have been spoken until the end of Act 2, 90 minutes into a 120 minutes run-time - the Avengers had gotten their butts kicked, everyone was feeling sorry for themselves, someone would probably have died, and everyone is bickering among themselves pointing fingers - this would be the line that made everyone go quiet and realise just how far they had fallen, and that it was time to pick themselves back up.

Instead, it's in the middle of episode 2. Bucky is not only selfish, but be *knows* he is being selfish and admits it out loud to make it clear that his supposed problem with Sam is nothing to do with Sam as a person. It's like if the Odd Couple or the guys from Lethal Weapon admitted their problems early on and spent the rest of the movie getting into wacky hijinks while understanding each other from the get-go; the humour and depth comes from them understand each other's problems and trying to confront it productively instead of the cliched back-and-forth where problems arise because two adults won't have a conversation with each other.

There's even the payoff from this in the episode - Bucky suggests going to talk to Zemo, even though it's a really dumb and vague plan... and Sam agrees with it, because he understands that Bucky is not only right, but that he's actively trying to work against his worst instincts and trying like hell to to do the right thing. A litte bit of trust has formed, despite their bickering, andI'm glad the writers didn't decide to drag that out for longer.

(This does raise an interesting question... if Howard Stark cracked the super-soldier compound back then - even an imperfect version - is that how the Power Broker, whoever that is, was able to get his/her/their hands on it? Or are they perhaps former HYDRA researchers from Siberia?)

In the comics at least, the Winter Soldier's serum was developed by the Soviets. After the fall of Berlin in '45, they discovered the notes and research that were taken from/made by the Red Skull and developed their own version in parallel with the back-up American programme. The implication being that since the fall of the USSR, various sources of super-serum have made it to the Black Market and the likes, which is where half a dozen Captain America villains and antagonists come from.

I can see how this would tie in with the 'No borders' thing - the USSR fell then suddenly all this sort of Black Ops stuff came into the light and some hidden agent is using group like the Flag Smashers to gather it together under the lie that its about civil freedom. They're dupes being played by someone who has more traditional "make super-soldiers and conquer the world" plans. Personally I'm hoping that it's Dr. Doom pulling the strings because Doom is awesome.... or I could be completely wrong.

[Psyren]

I expect we'll find out where the serum came from when we come across the Power Broker in this series.

The "Soviets made it" certainly fits with Bucky's internment in Siberia. Whether they did so based on the Red Skull's notes, the Starks' supply, a combination or something else entirely has yet to be revealed.

There's even the payoff from this in the episode - Bucky suggests going to talk to Zemo, even though it's a really dumb and vague plan... and Sam agrees with it, because he understands that Bucky is not only right, but that he's actively trying to work against his worst instincts and trying like hell to to do the right thing. A litte bit of trust has formed, despite their bickering, andI'm glad the writers didn't decide to drag that out for longer.

What I'm loving the most about these Marvel shows so far is that they are demonstrating their mastery of the two-hero dynamic. When your show rests on two charismatic leads, their chemistry with each other can make or break your series, and that chemistry doesn't have to be romantic. (Though I'm sure there's been a whole fleet of ships launched just based on the soul gaze.)

[BRC]

Nah, it's pretty obvious he was back in Civil War. The scene where he ambushed the Starks to murder them, he didn't just do it because HYDRA wanted them gone, he did it in order to get additional super soldier compound from their trunk - the goal of which was to, in his words "make more Winter Soldiers." He was even used in their training at the Siberia compound.

There were other moments too, like the chase scene in Austria, where he, Cap and T'challa outran a bunch of cars on foot, or his trigger scene with Zemo when he kicks Cap through elevator doors and does other such feats with his non-metal limbs. He's a super-soldier, no question.

(This does raise an interesting question... if Howard Stark cracked the super-soldier compound back then - even an imperfect version - is that how the Power Broker, whoever that is, was able to get his/her/their hands on it? Or are they perhaps former HYDRA researchers from Siberia?)

Spoiler: On Serums and Super Soldiers

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We know Serum 1.0 was used on the Red Skull

Serum 2.0 was used on Captain America, but was lost

Serum 1.5 was used on Bucky during WWII, either during his initial capture, or when he fell from the bridge, hence his supersoldierness.

There have been other attempts to develop the serum.

We don't know the precise timeline, but by the Korean War, they had another serum to use on Isiah Bradley. If this is following Red White and Black, he's the only survivor of the test group, probably why they didn't just start rolling it out right away once he was a success, and why they kept studying his blood.

Howard Stark developed/acquired a version of the serum, Bucky took it, and it was used to create the super soldiers in the bunker, but those apparently went rogue.

A potential timeline is

1) Erskine develops the serum, first batch is used on Red Skull, this serum is flawed and his face falls off.
2) Erskine flees to the US, develops second serum, which is used on Steve Rodgers. However, he is killed and his notes are destroyed. Serum 2 is the "Perfected" serum.
3) HYDRA develops something based off Erskine's original forumla, we'll call this Serum 1.5. This is used on Bucky when he's originally captured, or when they recover him after his fall. Regardless
4) Zola gets recruited by the SSR, later SHIELD. He has notes of Serum 1.5, this is developed into Serum 3, which is used on Isiah Bradley. If we follow the comics, it was used on a bunch of black soldiers who didn't exactly volunteer, but Bradley is the only survivor.
5) Bradley goes to Korea and fights the Winter Soldier. He is imprisoned, and both HYDRA and SHIELD scientists collect his blood to study. Following the example in Red White and Black, Bradley may be the only survivor of the experiment, and they're trying to figure out why the serum worked for him, but not for the other subjects.
6) SHIELD/Stark Industries scientists create, what they think is a perfected version of the Serum based on studying Bradley's blood. Alternatively, HYDRA develops what they think is a perfected version of the Serum based on studying Isaiah Bradley, this is Serum 4. Regardless, Howard Stark has Serum 4 in the trunk of his car when Bucky is sent to kill him and retrieve the serum.
7) Bucky retrieves the serum, it is used to create the Super Soldiers in Siberia, but this serum is also flawed, they go berserk and rebel. They are put on ice as too unstable.
8) Hydra keeps working, eventually developing Serum 5, but doesn't get a good chance to use it before they're shut down.
9) The Power Broker acquires Serum 5. But it's stolen by the Flag Smashers, who show no apparent side-effect (Yet).


We have 3 "Perfect" Super Soldiers (as far as they have enhanced abilities and are mentally stable with no apparent physical side-effects) in Steve Rogers, Bucky Barnes, and Isiah Bradley. However, it's possible that those successes are not reproducible for whatever reason.

The Flag Smashers also appear to be "Perfect", but I have a feeling there are side effects, potentially ones the Power Broker knew about, but the Flag Smashers dont.

[Wraith]

I expect we'll find out where the serum came from when we come across the Power Broker in this series.

The more I think about it, the more I'm hoping that Power Broker is Dr. Doom.

Evil and menacing behind-the-scenes puppet-master, European presence (the medicine was stolen in Munich, after all), and with the re-emergence of heroes after the unSnap he now has reason to gather up all Black Market samples of Super Soldier Serum because - as demonstrated by Sokovia and the likes - superheroes are the biggest threat to his own stability. That the Flag Smashers - keen globalists - would steal from him, a tyrannical monarch, only for him to threaten them through channels they thought secret and secure is entirely plausible and in character.

It would probably be unlikely, but then... Disney did a similarly surprising and star-studded conclusion in their other recent show The Mandalorian so it *could* happen....

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir
call me stupid, but i like that this show clears up weather or not Bucky was a Super Soldier. Even with his shield-catching thing in winter soldier, i was never fully clear on if he actually was, or if he just had really good training and a metal arm.

Speaking of which…

Spoiler: Shield Brawler

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…did anyone notice, in today’s fight on top of the two trucks, that Bucky caught a rebound of the shield with his right arm?

I had to go back and double-check to be sure, but he snagged it like catching a paper airplane, and then handed it back to Walker.

Also:

Spoiler: Truth and Consequences

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Did anyone else catch the reference to Sharon, aka Agent 13? Sam says she was designated a traitor to the state for returning his gear and Cap’s shield, so it sounds like she did catch some blowback from that decision after all.

Now I’m wondering if she’s been doing the hero-on-the-run act as well—or if she’ll end up working with the Flag Smashers because she's done with governments.

Spoiler: About Isaiah

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If I’m doing the math right, Isaiah should be at least ninety, if not older. Is that accurate?

Do super-soldiers just live a really long time? I’d always assumed that Bucky spent long periods on ice between Hydra missions, but does he somehow have an augmented lifespan as well?

[Draconi Redfir]

Spoiler: About Isaiah

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If I’m doing the math right, Isaiah should be at least ninety, if not older. Is that accurate?

Do super-soldiers just live a really long time? I’d always assumed that Bucky spent long periods on ice between Hydra missions, but does he somehow have an augmented lifespan as well?

Spoiler

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i wouldn't be surprised if they had a bit of an increased lifespan. but even as it is, living to ninety isn't impossible, my grandmother is getting pretty close herself and she's still walking around. Being on ice is probably why Bucky looks a lot younger then Isaiah though.

[Psyren]

He was definitely frozen and thawed periodically. No idea if he has a long lifespan on top of that though, but it doesn't seem unlikely.

[Wraith]

Spoiler: Shield Brawler

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…did anyone notice, in today’s fight on top of the two trucks, that Bucky caught a rebound of the shield with his right arm?

Spoiler

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I did. In at least one of the comics, Bucky eventually becomes the actual Captain America when Sam decides that he still isn't worthy, and/or can't devote the time to the role while he helps out his family, and Hawkeye also decides that it isn't for him either. I think the show is alluding to this story/teasing that Bucky will be the one who ends up in the stripey suit after US Agent.

Spoiler: About Isaiah

Show

If I’m doing the math right, Isaiah should be at least ninety, if not older. Is that accurate?

Do super-soldiers just live a really long time? I’d always assumed that Bucky spent long periods on ice between Hydra missions, but does he somehow have an augmented lifespan as well?

Spoiler

Show

Yes, it's a thing also in the comics that has been implied by the movies. For comparison; At the end of Endgame, Steve Rogers is still alive - he too is supposed to be ~95 years old, but he's still tall and buff and barely withered by age. Not in his prime, of course, but quick and healthy enough to meet Sam with the shield and then get out again undetected.

[Murk]

Spoiler: On Serums and Super Soldiers

Show

We know Serum 1.0 was used on the Red Skull

Serum 2.0 was used on Captain America, but was lost

Serum 1.5 was used on Bucky during WWII, either during his initial capture, or when he fell from the bridge, hence his supersoldierness.

There have been other attempts to develop the serum.

We don't know the precise timeline, but by the Korean War, they had another serum to use on Isiah Bradley. If this is following Red White and Black, he's the only survivor of the test group, probably why they didn't just start rolling it out right away once he was a success, and why they kept studying his blood.

Howard Stark developed/acquired a version of the serum, Bucky took it, and it was used to create the super soldiers in the bunker, but those apparently went rogue.

A potential timeline is

1) Erskine develops the serum, first batch is used on Red Skull, this serum is flawed and his face falls off.
2) Erskine flees to the US, develops second serum, which is used on Steve Rodgers. However, he is killed and his notes are destroyed. Serum 2 is the "Perfected" serum.
3) HYDRA develops something based off Erskine's original forumla, we'll call this Serum 1.5. This is used on Bucky when he's originally captured, or when they recover him after his fall. Regardless
4) Zola gets recruited by the SSR, later SHIELD. He has notes of Serum 1.5, this is developed into Serum 3, which is used on Isiah Bradley. If we follow the comics, it was used on a bunch of black soldiers who didn't exactly volunteer, but Bradley is the only survivor.
5) Bradley goes to Korea and fights the Winter Soldier. He is imprisoned, and both HYDRA and SHIELD scientists collect his blood to study. Following the example in Red White and Black, Bradley may be the only survivor of the experiment, and they're trying to figure out why the serum worked for him, but not for the other subjects.
6) SHIELD/Stark Industries scientists create, what they think is a perfected version of the Serum based on studying Bradley's blood. Alternatively, HYDRA develops what they think is a perfected version of the Serum based on studying Isaiah Bradley, this is Serum 4. Regardless, Howard Stark has Serum 4 in the trunk of his car when Bucky is sent to kill him and retrieve the serum.
7) Bucky retrieves the serum, it is used to create the Super Soldiers in Siberia, but this serum is also flawed, they go berserk and rebel. They are put on ice as too unstable.
8) Hydra keeps working, eventually developing Serum 5, but doesn't get a good chance to use it before they're shut down.
9) The Power Broker acquires Serum 5. But it's stolen by the Flag Smashers, who show no apparent side-effect (Yet).


We have 3 "Perfect" Super Soldiers (as far as they have enhanced abilities and are mentally stable with no apparent physical side-effects) in Steve Rogers, Bucky Barnes, and Isiah Bradley. However, it's possible that those successes are not reproducible for whatever reason.

The Flag Smashers also appear to be "Perfect", but I have a feeling there are side effects, potentially ones the Power Broker knew about, but the Flag Smashers dont.

Spoiler:

Show

Somewhere inbetween your Serum 4 and 5 is also the test version they used on Emil Blonsky, which seemed a pretty complete replica of the "perfect" serum 2. His physical power seemed on par with Captain America, though of course his personality was lacking a bit.

[Wraith]

Spoiler:

Show

Somewhere inbetween your Serum 4 and 5 is also the test version they used on Emil Blonsky, which seemed a pretty complete replica of the "perfect" serum 2. His physical power seemed on par with Captain America, though of course his personality was lacking a bit.

Spoiler

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"Perfect" apart from it was making spikes grow out of his spine. Undoubtedly the Hulk-blood transfusion made matters worse, but that was happening while he was still in the hospital and before they captured Banner, after all.

Good catch, though - I had otherwise completely forgotten that the cannister opened by General Ross had the name "Rogers" written on the tag

[Psyren]

Nice timeline BRC.

And yes, flawed serum being out there (and given to the Flagsmashers) seems likely.

[Kitten Champion]

I'm glad my initial prediction is wrong. There's more grey area in this series than the US government = evil.

Spoiler

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Isaiah Bradley showing up was a surprise. Not a massive one, sure, this is the kind of series which would lend to his introduction, but I hope they go back over his history more later. While I know about his character - and its allusions to real American history - from reading the comics, my friends watching with me were somewhat perplexed with what exactly that was all about.

Judging by the Google Search algorithm going straight to him I'd imagine that a lot of people were with them.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion

Spoiler

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While I know about his character - and its allusions to real American history - from reading the comics, my friends watching with me were somewhat perplexed with what exactly that was all about.

Spoiler

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I was completely baffled, since I've never heard of this character before. Sam was pretty much voicing my thoughts once he stepped outside: why have we never heard about this guy before?

The answer suggests that Bucky isn't quite as selfish as some people are assuming. He's doing his best to spare Steve any more worry or pain, whatever the emotional burden to himself.