The Falcon & Winter Soldier

[Psyren]

If the rumors are to be believed, Marvel Studios had a reclusive billionaire pulling considerable strings behind the scenes to keep them from exploring certain themes related to minorities, women, and other such topics. Allegedly, his involvement and subsequent ousting is why it took us so long to get movies like Captain Marvel, Black Panther, and even the mildest of LGBT representation in the form of Valkyrie.

If those rumors are true, we would pretty much have no chance of Isaiah Bradley making an appearance in the MCU - until now. The show is doing the best it can to make up for lost time, even if it raises awkward questions like the ones being posed by Sam.

[Cikomyr2]

If the rumors are to be believed, Marvel Studios had a reclusive billionaire pulling considerable strings behind the scenes to keep them from exploring certain themes related to minorities, women, and other such topics. Allegedly, his involvement and subsequent ousting is why it took us so long to get movies like Captain Marvel, Black Panther, and even the mildest of LGBT representation in the form of Valkyrie.

If those rumors are true, we would pretty much have no chance of Isaiah Bradley making an appearance in the MCU - until now. The show is doing the best it can to make up for lost time, even if it raises awkward questions like the ones being posed by Sam.

It does raise questions, but I like how the fact that there was active repression of these knowledge in-MCU is meant to rationalize this former direction.

[Palanan]

Something else about New Guy:

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The GMA host said that John Walker’s body had been studied by scientists at MIT, and he’s “off the charts” in terms of physical and mental ability, though apparently still not in Tony Stark territory.

Do we know why he’s so exceptional? He doesn’t seem to be in the Super-Soldier club, so is he simply an extreme outlier on the spectrum of human potential?

[JadedDM]

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My impression was that he was just peak human, but not super human. Just a really strong and fast guy, from years of exercise, training and probably some good genetics, too. But nowhere near Rogers level.

[BRC]

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I'm guessing that he's juiced up on SOME version of the super-soldier serum, but the government is selling him as "Just Really Good"

[Kitten Champion]

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My impression was that he was just peak human, but not super human. Just a really strong and fast guy, from years of exercise, training and probably some good genetics, too. But nowhere near Rogers level.

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That was my impression as well. He's sort of like the (MCU) Black Widow or Hawkeye, a mundane human with high specs + real world experience that could otherwise simply be an elite soldier. Once they gave him a costume, the shield, and a nom de guerre he became a Superhero™ however.

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I'm guessing that he's juiced up on SOME version of the super-soldier serum, but the government is selling him as "Just Really Good"

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I don't think so, for two reasons

1. He really was struggling against the Flag Smashers, and made up for it with a mix of surprise, a gun he doesn't advertise he's also wielding, and that Vibranium shield.

2. I think Psyren's right, him getting the serum or a bootleg version of it is going to be a plot point later.

I don't see him falling from a plane like Bucky did and shrugging it off, at least in how he's been depicted thus far.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion

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He really was struggling against the Flag Smashers, and made up for it with a mix of surprise, a gun he doesn't advertise he's also wielding, and that Vibranium shield.

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The gun was clearly visible on his hip when he was first introduced at the end of the first episode, starting at 42:21.

That was a little jarring, since guns weren’t a key part of Steve Rogers’ look. Cap was never shy about using a gun in his first movie, and he squeezed off a few shots in the first Avengers movie, but after that he was very conspicuously not a gun user.

As for New Guy and the nom de guerre, I’m still not sure why his handlers decided to reveal his identity right off the bat. Steve Rogers didn’t have any surviving family for criminals to target, and Tony Stark learned the hard way that secret identities should be that way for a reason.

John Walker apparently has a wife, and probably a whole slew of army buddies, all of whom are now extremely vulnerable by association. I have a feeling the wife may not be around much longer, which may play into any decision on Walker’s part to dabble in knockoff serum.

[Kitten Champion]

Spoiler: Guns and the New Guy

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The gun was clearly visible on his hip when he was first introduced at the end of the first episode, starting at 42:21.

That was a little jarring, since guns weren’t a key part of Steve Rogers’ look. Cap was never shy about using a gun in his first movie, and he squeezed off a few shots in the first Avengers movie, but after that he was very conspicuously not a gun user.

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Well, this all comes down to branding, is the thing. The shield is valuable for its iconography - also it's Vibranium obviously, but that's secondary here - and that it definitively signifies protection rather than any typical weapon one might wield, which feeds into the concept of security that Captain America as a figure provides and thus is heavily emphasized.

Walker shouldn't go unarmed, that would be kind of suicidal, what's surprising I suppose is he's not entering the battle with the gun drawn either. That's him trying to emulate Steve Rogers and play this part, which he seems to want to do sincerely even when cameras aren't rolling.

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As for New Guy and the nom de guerre, I’m still not sure why his handlers decided to reveal his identity right off the bat. Steve Rogers didn’t have any surviving family for criminals to target, and Tony Stark learned the hard way that secret identities should be that way for a reason.

John Walker apparently has a wife, and probably a whole slew of army buddies, all of whom are now extremely vulnerable by association. I have a feeling the wife may not be around much longer, which may play into any decision on Walker’s part to dabble in knockoff serum.

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Secret identities haven't been a thing until and only including Spider-Man. Daredevil too technically, but he's Netflix. It's not common sense nor foundational in the MCU, nor was it truly even the subject of the Sokovia Accords as that was more about official control over the Superheroes by governmental powers. John Walker isn't a vigilante, he's a fully on-board government-backed superhero picked based off of a dedicated internal search of the US armed forces, he doesn't really have the basic discretion to maintain a secret identity the way some rando who stumbles upon superpowers can.

Which, yeah, John Walker is a solider. That he has been elevated to a different status via a government propaganda campaign doesn't change the fact that he's not a private citizen and this whole project is paid by taxpayers and his authority is based on that. Transparency would be a thing average people would want in much the same way it's difficult to trust police if you can't get their name and badge number.

Lastly, John Walker is propaganda. He's like the astronauts during the early development of NASA, as much as they were about being the "best of the best" they were as much a PR machine in the pursuit of winning the space race despite the cost. They - the government - are putting Walker out there with his whole life story and personality for everyone to see because that in itself is more of the point than whether he's effective in combating the androids/aliens/wizards in the world.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
Secret identities haven't been a thing until and only including Spider-Man.

You’re right, Batman always told people he was Bruce Wayne wearing a mask. Always.

Come on, now. Secret identities have been part and parcel of the superhero mythos from the beginning.

[Blackdrop]

You’re right, Batman always told people he was Bruce Wayne wearing a mask. Always.

Come on, now. Secret identities have been part and parcel of the superhero mythos from the beginning.

In Superhero stuff in general, sure. But in the MCU, until Far From Home, Spider-Man was the only mainstream hero who had a secret identity.

[Kitten Champion]

In Superhero stuff in general, sure. But in the MCU, until Far From Home, Spider-Man was the only mainstream hero who had a secret identity.

I mean, I imagine Ms. Marvel and Moon Knight will when they get their Disney+ series. Probably not She-Hulk though, but who really knows.

Still, even in this very series Sam Wilson doesn't and has never had a secret identity and his family we've seen are actually much more vulnerable than, say, Tony Stark's. It's that the MCU doesn't rely on that trope that having a public identity automatically makes oneself and everyone one knows targets for every BBEG in the universe, anymore than any real-life military veteran or police officer.

In fact, the point they seem to be driving home is how little different Sam gets treated from every other Black man in America when he isn't acknowledged as an Avenger... and even then.

[Starbuck_II]

I mean, I imagine Ms. Marvel and Moon Knight will when they get their Disney+ series. Probably not She-Hulk though, but who really knows.

Still, even in this very series Sam Wilson doesn't and has never had a secret identity and his family we've seen are actually much more vulnerable than, say, Tony Stark's. It's that the MCU doesn't rely on that trope that having a public identity automatically makes oneself and everyone one knows targets for every BBEG in the universe, anymore than any real-life military veteran or police officer.

In fact, the point they seem to be driving home is how little different Sam gets treated from every other Black man in America when he isn't acknowledged as an Avenger... and even then.

Moon Knight has three extra identities, so keep his real identity secret is easy.
For while, people though they were fake identities, then you figure out he is crazy lol

Can't wait for him.
Hope they do him like Deadpool talking to audience (well to his god).

Yeah, they are show casing real life discrimination ideas. In a bad neighborhood, cops will over react when a darker skin person gets upset. Sam could just show ID but Sam didn't want to (somewhat because he used to not needing to and also because he is stressed).

[Blackdrop]

Yeah, they are show casing real life discrimination ideas. In a bad neighborhood, cops will over react when a darker skin person gets upset. Sam could just show ID but Sam didn't want to (somewhat because he used to not needing to and also because he is stressed).

An alternate (and correct take): He didn't show his ID, because he doesn't bleeping have to! Cops, despite the desire of more than a few of them, are not entitled to just pull-up to someone and go "Vhere are your papers! Vhere are ze!", even if they're committing the extremely heinous crime of Talking on a Public Street While Black.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

In Superhero stuff in general, sure. But in the MCU, until Far From Home, Spider-Man was the only mainstream hero who had a secret identity.

Minor objection: Carol’s identity was so secret even she didn’t know who she was. I will also argue T’Challa as an edge case, since his entire country was hiding its identity.

Still, even in this very series Sam Wilson doesn't and has never had a secret identity and his family we've seen are actually much more vulnerable than, say, Tony Stark's. It's that the MCU doesn't rely on that trope that having a public identity automatically makes oneself and everyone one knows targets for every BBEG in the universe, anymore than any real-life military veteran or police officer.

In fact, the point they seem to be driving home is how little different Sam gets treated from every other Black man in America when he isn't acknowledged as an Avenger... and even then.

Most of the time they don’t recognize him as an Avenger though. He has to prompt people for them to realize he’s the Falcon - so his identity is somewhat secret, but it’s secret because he’s obscure not because he’s actively hiding it.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
…he's not a private citizen and this whole project is paid by taxpayers….

…It's that the MCU doesn't rely on that trope that having a public identity automatically makes oneself and everyone one knows targets for every BBEG in the universe, anymore than any real-life military veteran or police officer.

Out here in the real world, operators are very concerned with PERSEC, much more so than typical service members. It’s a valid concern for the people who are doing the work, and that concern is just as valid for anyone else doing that kind of work, be they mutants, enhanced or super-soldiers.

Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

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Sam could just show ID but Sam didn't want to (somewhat because he used to not needing to and also because he is stressed).

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Sam said he didn’t have ID on him, which is a little puzzling, since there are plenty of non-police-related reasons why showing an ID is useful.

Also, I understand where Sam is coming from, but showing his ID would have defused the situation very quickly.

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
I will also argue T’Challa as an edge case, since his entire country was hiding its identity.

More than an edge case. Everett Ross made the point to T’Challa, in the gambling den in Korea, that he was doing T’Challa a real favor by not telling anyone who the Black Panther was. Sounds like a secret identity to me.

Also, pretty sure Hawkeye isn’t passing out cards with his name and photo, given how much trouble he’s gone to keep his family off the grid.

Black Widow, of course, until she dumped all of S.H.I.E.L.D.’s files and sat down with a Congressional committee. Those decisions would have been meaningless if secrecy hadn’t been so important to her life before then.

As for Thor, he doesn’t have to worry about his family being hurt by anyone on Earth—more the opposite—but even so, the moment the trouble with Loki started, S.H.I.E.L.D. made sure that Jane Foster was off the grid and under protective surveillance. This strongly suggests that in-universe these concerns are taken very seriously.

.

[GloatingSwine]

Spoiler: Sam's ID

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Sam said he didn’t have ID on him, which is a little puzzling, since there are plenty of non-police-related reasons why showing an ID is useful.

Also, I understand where Sam is coming from, but showing his ID would have defused the situation very quickly.

On the other hand, he isn't required by law to identify himself unless he is currently operating a motor vehicle or unless the police have reasonable suspicion that he is in possession of a firearm. The police do not have the authority to request ID, or compel anyone to provide it outside of those circumstances (in Maryland, the scene is in Baltimore, different states have different laws).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by GloatingSwine
The police do not have the authority to request ID, or compel anyone to provide it outside of those circumstances (in Maryland, the scene is in Baltimore, different states have different laws).

That's fair; I'm in one of those states with different laws.

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Even so, providing his ID could have helped resolve the situation a little more quickly. Sam claimed he was calm, but his tone was still loud and aggressive, which isn't a good way to smooth things out.

[Gallowglass]

That's fair; I'm in one of those states with different laws.

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Even so, providing his ID could have helped resolve the situation a little more quickly. Sam claimed he was calm, but his tone was still loud and aggressive, which isn't a good way to smooth things out.

Except multiple situations in real life have shown that it wouldn't, at least not for people who look like Sam. Notice that the police come across two men, one white and one black, having a vocal disagreement in the street and they were asking Sam for his ID, but not Bucky. Then tell me again who the aggressors is in this situation.

But now we are getting into talking about real politics.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gallowglass

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Except multiple situations in real life have shown that it wouldn't, at least not for people who look like Sam. Notice that the police come across two men, one white and one black, having a vocal disagreement in the street and they were asking Sam for his ID, but not Bucky. Then tell me again who the aggressors [are] in this situation.

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This is why the scene is very well-written, because there's a recognizable moment when the police overreach, and the scene makes it very clear the discrepancy between their asking Sam for ID but not Bucky.

Beyond that, agreed, probably shouldn't pursue this any further, other than to note that the show is doing a good job handling these issues.

EDIT: This scene does raise an unrelated question, though:

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Where does Sam stow his wings when he's not on a mission? Does he have them in the back of their rental car or something? Or does he need to sign them in and out from a secure location?

I'm not sure if this has been clarified, so it raises questions about how quickly Sam can react to an emergency, as well as the still-perplexing issue of just how much of a free agent he really is.

[Starbuck_II]

Also, who repairs Red Wing?
Since there is no Tony Stark, someone must be assigned that duty.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Also, who repairs Red Wing?
Since there is no Tony Stark, someone must be assigned that duty.

Wasn’t Sam himself fixing Redwing back in Episode 1? Also complaining about the military (I want to say Air Force) messing it up every time they worked on it (which in retrospect was how they got the tracker into it)?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga

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Wasn’t Sam himself fixing Redwing back in Episode 1? Also complaining about the military (I want to say Air Force) messing it up every time they worked on it (which in retrospect was how they got the tracker into it)?

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Yup, Sam was working on Redwing in the outdoor cafe, and he was highly possessive about anyone else even touching it.

Question now is where he'll get a replacement. Alas, poor Redwing, we barely knew ye.

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At the end of Infinity War, Sam has three drones, so the Redwing slot seems to be very customizable. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a number of Redwing variants stashed away somewhere, assuming they weren't in the Avengers compound before it became Avengers Lake.

[Tyndmyr]

Finally got around to watching episode 2, so can stop avoiding the thread.

Ep 2:

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The whole Global Council thing is new, and raises questions. We don't *really* know a lot about them, but it isn't much of a stretch to say that some grievances may be entirely legitimate. That many people suddenly appearing and displacing others? Oof. Even perfect saints would have difficulty handling that without harm to many, and the population of the MCU are often well short of sainthood.

Tent cities seemed like a reasonable depiction of what would probably happen. Lots of suddenly homeless folks. I'm happy we're getting at least some digging into the effects of the blip.

Nice tease of Zemo at the end, glad that they’re introducing him relatively early on. No last-minute reveal with a catchy tune for this villain.

Agreed. This is a good play, I think. Zemo's fun, and while I don't think he's alone in being a bad guy here, a nice early intro will be fun to watch.

The first two episodes have been a little slow for me...not bad, but the nature of the two characters is that they need some more background setup. Falcon in particular hasn't had that much focus in the films. So, all that time is probably necessary, but it'll be fun to see a proper tense villain confrontation.

The initially good portrayal of Cap 2.0 was an interesting way to take it, though I feel confident he'll still end up being an adversary. His sidekick feels off, somehow. I don't know the character from comics, so I have no idea what they're gunning for here, and "fake feeling Cap" may in fact just be the goal, but stuff like his insignia feels odd. Dude's unreasonably young to be a first sgt, and the rank doesn't even really make sense in relation to Cap? There may be some interesting stuff goin on here?

My only real gripe so far is that we have an awful lot of characters with the same rough powerset again. Human, but strong. Superstrength is perhaps the most overused superpower already, and thus the fight scenes are not exceedingly memorable. I have hope that Zemo's introduction will change this, though, because Zemo's style of adversarial relationship is very different.

Between the vague backstory and copy-paste superpowers, the Flag Smashers need at least a little more...something in order for me to care about them. It seems obvious that it'll come out that they're actually sympathetic, but right now they're just a bunch of mostly identical folks. The sacrifice of one to escape isn't really something that has a ton of impact as a result, yknow? Eh, it's early in the show still.

I did laugh at just how bad the therapist was, though. Great comedy setup, so I'm not gonna nitpick, but that whole scene was pretty light on realism. Eh, long as it's fun, whatever.

As an addendum to the Supersoldier serum discussion...there's also the Iron Man 3 plotline. Extremis is basically a supersoldier formula, albeit a different strain. Perhaps there's a possibility of some evil chap doin' some formula mixing behind the scenes? That kind of approach has happened in comics a few times if memory serves, as a handy way to justify various not quite identical powersets.

An alternate (and correct take): He didn't show his ID, because he doesn't bleeping have to! Cops, despite the desire of more than a few of them, are not entitled to just pull-up to someone and go "Vhere are your papers! Vhere are ze!", even if they're committing the extremely heinous crime of Talking on a Public Street While Black.

Entirely fair. It's a more reasonable explanation that not actually having ID, as the military is...very, very ID fixated. It's consistent with his apparent motivations and circumstances that he simply doesn't feel that he should have to present ID for this, and that's a handy excuse.

That said, it was somewhat of an odd interaction in Baltimore. Very common many other places, I'm sure, but in Baltimore, being black is...not even vaguely unusual. It makes up a solid majority, and black police officers are also quite common. That doesn't mean that police here are flawless...far from it. But it would be more reasonable to have police demonstrating complete apathy towards everything, even minor crimes. Unless, of course, the MCU universe is very different from ours. Still, it feels as if it was written to depict an interaction in an area where black folks are treated as outsiders. It'd work fine in quite a few other areas, that just stuck out as a bit odd.

Minor objection: Carol’s identity was so secret even she didn’t know who she was. I will also argue T’Challa as an edge case, since his entire country was hiding its identity.

The country hid its wealth and technology, not its identity nor the identity of its leaders. Civil War opens with T'Challa and his dad attending a diplomatic event quite publicly.

However, it seems that largely nobody pays the country any attention because of it's guise, so perhaps that helps him remain somewhat incognito in practice even if the country as a whole isn't.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr

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My only real gripe so far is that we have an awful lot of characters with the same rough powerset again. Human, but strong. Superstrength is perhaps the most overused superpower already, and thus the fight scenes are not exceedingly memorable.

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The MCU has leaned very heavily on super-soldier serum and the attempts to recreate it, and it would be nice to branch out bit.

But it’s also a powerset that Bucky and Sam can work with, as opposed to, say, Polaris, who would make short work of both of them.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr

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Between the vague backstory and copy-paste superpowers, the Flag Smashers need at least a little more...something in order for me to care about them. It seems obvious that it'll come out that they're actually sympathetic, but right now they're just a bunch of mostly identical folks.

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They came across as fairly sympathetic already, but Karli did seem a little drunk on power, and she clearly gets a thrill from bashing superheroes. I have a feeling they’ll go much darker and end up splintering over the consequences.

One nice character touch was Karli doing her best to cover up how much she didn’t like chicken livers. Exercising the ol’ super-strength clearly works up an appetite, but even so, she just quietly saved them “for later.” I know exactly how it is when people want to feed you their favorite recipes with the best of intentions.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Civil War opens with T'Challa and his dad attending a diplomatic event quite publicly.

They’re known heads of state, but I don’t think it’s known that either of them also acted as Black Panther. Most likely no one had even heard of Black Panther until T’Challa went after Bucky.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
The country hid its wealth and technology….

T’Challa did reveal at least some of their technology prior to the Snap, but it’s not clear how far the engagement went before the world went to pieces. And it’s not clear that he ever revealed his specific identity as Black Panther.

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, Wakanda's state is at least a little fuzzy. I suspect they had intended all along to do a Black Panther 2, and give us a little more detail, but the loss of the lead plus the usual covid and the normal delays of film production...it's set for what, 2022?

Perhaps they would have originally given us a bit more about pre-snap Wakanda, but it's pretty murky at present. Best I can say is that within Wakanda, there doesn't seem to be any secrecy surrounding his role, but information may not travel out of country easily.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Best I can say is that within Wakanda, there doesn't seem to be any secrecy surrounding his role, but information may not travel out of country easily.

I have a feeling that people in general don't travel out of Wakanda. The Jabari certainly don't, and Nakia was presented as exceptional for her passion for engaging with the outside world.

There are evidently spies and wardogs throughout the world, but they're not likely to be sharing anything about Wakanda. Hopefully we'll get more on all of this whenever the Wakanda series finally comes out.

[GloatingSwine]

If the rumors are to be believed, Marvel Studios had a reclusive billionaire pulling considerable strings behind the scenes to keep them from exploring certain themes related to minorities, women, and other such topics. Allegedly, his involvement and subsequent ousting is why it took us so long to get movies like Captain Marvel, Black Panther, and even the mildest of LGBT representation in the form of Valkyrie.

If those rumors are true, we would pretty much have no chance of Isaiah Bradley making an appearance in the MCU - until now. The show is doing the best it can to make up for lost time, even if it raises awkward questions like the ones being posed by Sam.

If by "reclusive billionaire" you mean "Ike Perlmutter, CEO of Marvel" yeah.

His main involvement was to do everything in his power to make everything as cheap as possible, but he was apparently also the person who was most heavily involved in trying to push the Inhumans to spite Fox because Marvel didn't have the X-Men license for movies (if you want to understand why, when they did an Inhumans TV series it was cheap and rushed* and almost the first thing to happen is Medusa gets her head shaved because her powers would be expensive to animate, that's why. He's also the one who got Terrence Howard replaced as Rhodey because he asked for more money for the second film).

Kevin Feige ultimately got Marvel Studios divorced from Marvel Entertainment by threatening to quit. But as another example of Perlmutter's thinking, he wanted Hulk to be the pro-registration leader for Civil War because Mark Ruffalo cost less than Robert Downey Junior.



* It may be tempting to blame Scott Buck, the man famous for making the last season of Dexter utter garbage, but he was hired for Iron Fist and Inhumans specifically because he makes things cheap and fast, he's terrible for a superhero project, but he was hired for exactly the reasons that make him terrible.

[Tyndmyr]

But as another example of Perlmutter's thinking, he wanted Hulk to be the pro-registration leader for Civil War because Mark Ruffalo cost less than Robert Downey Junior.

That one might not actually have been so bad. The guy who hulks out and smashes everything is probably a reasonable candidate for advocating a little closer oversight.

Sure, we all love RDJ, but that would work, and Ruffalo's a good actor too. Either approach would be fine with me.

Inhumans and Iron Fist were garbage, though.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
Inhumans and Iron Fist were garbage, though.

I haven’t seen Iron Fist, but Inhumans felt like a TV movie shot by someone’s college buddies.

Everything about it was just awful.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
I suspect they had intended all along to do a Black Panther 2, and give us a little more detail, but the loss of the lead plus the usual covid and the normal delays of film production...it's set for what, 2022?

Just to follow up on this, the current release date is July 8, 2022. The movie is described as focusing on “the world of Wakanda and the rich characters” from the first film.

I have a feeling it’ll be more of a victory lap, but still looking forward to learning more about Wakanda.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

That one might not actually have been so bad. The guy who hulks out and smashes everything is probably a reasonable candidate for advocating a little closer oversight.

I’m going to disagree: this is also the guy who went on the run and lived off the grid to avoid being forcibly conscripted by the US military to be their super soldier/science experiment.

Inhumans and Iron Fist were garbage, though.

Can’t speak to Inhumans, but while Iron Fist season 1 was indeed garbage season 2 wasn’t bad. More likable characters, and not so much in the way of Danny coming up with a stupid plan and everyone going along with it solely because he’s the main character. Not as good as Daredevil, but definitely watchable.