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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    See, Inhuman was bad because the bad guys were the protagonists.
    I mean, they have literal slavery in their caste system but the show tried to paint them as the good guys.
    Don't get me wrong, Black bolt's bro wasn't any better, being somewhat a tyrant but he didn't have slaves just serfs. Which is sort of a step up.

    Seriously, keep the inhuman leadership as backdrop, like Ms. Marvel will likely (being inhuman version of Mr. Fantastic).

    Iron Fist was awesome idea but the execution... Dude barely had any martial arts training. He was just a model. He had the talky bits down.
    But dude could not walk the walk.

    Season 2 was better as she got the powers and she seemed to know how to fight.
    I'd love him to return or be in MCU.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    I never watched the Inhumans. It was so plainly the last remnants of Perlmutter's influence on the MCU, especially as it coincided with Agents of SHIELD murdering everyone one of their Inhuman characters who wasn't a main character as it shifted course back to "the Inhumans are not going to be a thing" after spending seasons building up "the Inhumans are totally going to be a thing!".

    I watched season 2 of Iron Fist when critics said it was better, and I didn't dislike it once it stopped being about corporate politics of the Rand Corporation and more... Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, I guess. Had the show been about Colleen Wing with Danny as a side-character I think I might have loved it. Typhoid Mary was interesting too, though there is a certain amount of "were self-aware about the problematic nature of the comic depiction of dissociative identity disorder, but it's still pretty much the basis for character" that has to be acknowledged.

    It was the corporate siblings who were a black hole of suck really. There was room for more down-to-Earth characters to balance off the 70's Kung Fu exploitation movie concept Iron Fist was going for, but they weren't really believable as persons so much as soap characters that largely felt disjointed from the broader material and wasted quite a bit of screen time.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    IÂ’m going to disagree: this is also the guy who went on the run and lived off the grid to avoid being forcibly conscripted by the US military to be their super soldier/science experiment.
    Iron Man 2 had Tony literally face off with the US government who was trying to take control of his tech. Honestly a little awkward either way. The end product ended up making it probably as persuasive as they could, but the pro-registration side was always going to be a hard sell, I think. Pretty much all the heroes have faced off against the law and order military sorts for whatever they thought was right.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    So, new episode.

    A generally fun, occasionally trippy, but increasingly ridiculous episode.



    Spoiler: Commercials & Freedom
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    Loved the commercial for GRC—beautifully done and on point in all regards.

    Also note the clear shot of Freedom Tower, which reinforces that 9/11 is a part of this Earth’s history.


    Spoiler: Breakout & Music Appreciation
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    Zemo’s escape seems a little too easy. Maybe a lot too easy. Yes, he’s brilliant and trained as special forces, but he’s probably the most notorious prisoner at that facility, and I’d think the guards would know his stubbly face from any angle. Not to mention someone watching cameras should notice the single guard slipping in and out of doors.

    Also very convenient that he’s suddenly rich.

    Speaking of which, the scene in the private jet was as well-done as the previous scenes were clunky and expository. Great reference to Marvin Gaye, and I loved Bucky’s slightly defensive admission that he likes 40s music.


    Spoiler: Guardian Angel
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    So, on the plus side, we know that Sharon suffered catastrophic consequences for the sake of a kiss under a bridge. It does drive home the benefits of being a superhero versus S.H.I.E.L.D.-turned-CIA agent, and it's also a more realistic set of consequences than we usually get.

    And yet, despite all that—“was, is, big difference”—she’s somehow convinced to help them in less than five seconds. That’s…convenient.

    Also convenient how the new, cynical, calculating international art criminal Sharon takes Sam’s offer of a deal at the drop of a hat, despite knowing full well that Sam is essentially a criminal on the run at this point. He has effectively zero standing to negotiate anything for her, so her sudden acquiescence doesn’t really convince.

    And where are the wings?


    Spoiler: зимний солдат
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    How does it benefit anyone for Bucky to be globally known as the Winter Soldier again?

    And how is he wandering casually around Riga without being instantly recognized? Former Soviet bloc country, his face all over the news a few years ago, and now going viral on social media after his little stunt in the club in Madripoor. And he just…walks around.

    Also, nitpick: on the plane flying out of Madripoor, Sam says Riga is "a city near the Baltic Sea," as if nobody knows where Riga is. But Bucky worked for the Soviets, Zemo is from Eastern Europe, so of course they know exactly where it is, and they know it’s been a notoriously grim and corrupt place for decades.

    Sam’s line was for the benefit of Disney+ viewers, not the people he was actually speaking to, and it stood out as another bit of clunky exposition.


    Spoiler: It's the New Me
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    It was a riot seeing Zemo dancing at Sharon’s club party—the most hilarious moment in the series so far. But it also seemed to be part of a humorous whitewash of the character. “Yes, he’s a bad guy, but he’s cultured and urbane, and it’s cute how he dances! Awww!”

    They did remind us of Zemo’s basic history with the Avengers, but they glossed over the casual murders and the full impact of the terrorism, as well as his prior employment as the leader of a covert kill squad. A little too much effort went into making him cute, and it feels discordant with what we already know of his character.


    Spoiler: No Longer on Team Karli
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    They leaned into the sympathetic look at Karli, right until she blew up a building full of people. Dammit, I was really rooting for her.

    No one is winning any ethical awards here. NewCap is already roughing people up and sliding into “ends justify the means” territory. Meanwhile Sam is using death threats to extract information, Bucky is wreaking havoc and Zemo is loudly telegraphing even more casual murder.

    For people trying to carry on Cap’s legacy, they’re…really not.


    Spoiler: About That Last Cameo
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    Looks like we have an early lead-in to the Wakanda series.

    Also looks like Danai Gurira wasn’t available. Or was too expensive for an episode that already had Daniel Brühl and Emily VanCamp.

    But wait, why is Wakanda freelancing justice for Zemo? Are they just interested in returning him to prison, or do they want to bring him back to Wakanda for a trial of their own—after T’Challa already turned him over?

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Spoiler: зимний солдат
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    How does it benefit anyone for Bucky to be globally known as the Winter Soldier again?

    And how is he wandering casually around Riga without being instantly recognized? Former Soviet bloc country, his face all over the news a few years ago, and now going viral on social media after his little stunt in the club in Madripoor. And he just…walks around.

    Also, nitpick: on the plane flying out of Madripoor, Sam says Riga is "a city near the Baltic Sea," as if nobody knows where Riga is. But Bucky worked for the Soviets, Zemo is from Eastern Europe, so of course they know exactly where it is, and they know it’s been a notoriously grim and corrupt place for decades.

    Sam’s line was for the benefit of Disney+ viewers, not the people he was actually speaking to, and it stood out as another bit of clunky exposition.
    Spoiler: Benefit
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    It certainly benefits Zemo, it it could from the "Tactical Genius" perspective.


    Zemo is rich, they're leaning into "Baron Zemo" from the comics. He has resources and assets, and it will take a bit of time for word to spread.

    He's expecting to ditch these two chuckleheads at some point, at which point Bucky being Infamous will make it difficult for him and Sam to chase Zemo.

    Heck, the whole Smiling Tiger disguise was completely unnecessary. Zemo was apparently able to get in to see the fence on his name recognition alone. Winter Soldier was his bargaining chip, but Sam could have just been a random flunky.
    Although I suppose Sam is recognizable enough, that a big flamboyant disguise that drew attention away from his face and towards his clothes was probably best. Let people see what the expect to see.

    Random mercenary who looks like The Falcon, might be The Falcon. Somebody who looks like Smiling Tiger walks in, dressed as Smiling Tiger, you're more likely to assume that's Smiling Tiger, and think "Huh, I never realized Smiling Tiger looked kind of like The Falcon".
    Last edited by BRC; 2021-04-02 at 11:03 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Iron Man 2 had Tony literally face off with the US government who was trying to take control of his tech. Honestly a little awkward either way. The end product ended up making it probably as persuasive as they could, but the pro-registration side was always going to be a hard sell, I think. Pretty much all the heroes have faced off against the law and order military sorts for whatever they thought was right.
    Trying to take his toys, yes, not his physical person. Not the same thing. And Tony’s tried fixing his screwups with hamhandedness and violence before. Stark Industries weapons being sold to terrorists? Shut down the entire company with no thought to the consequences (recall this is how Obadiah pulled the rug out from under him). Terrorist hurt his friend? Announce his home address on live television with no thought to the consequences (and then his house gets attacked). So trying to jam through the Sokovia Accords with no thought to the consequences (and breaking up the Avengers) is just another incident in a long line of Tony not thinking things through.

    In contrast, when something goes badly wrong for Bruce his typical reaction is to go bury himself somewhere no one will find him, which he did. He’s not the kind of guy to seek out the spotlight even when everything is going right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post

    Spoiler: Breakout & Music Appreciation
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    Also very convenient that he’s suddenly rich.

    Second this.

    Spoiler
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    Let’s see...

    • His country got flattened
    • He himself was imprisoned for quite a lot of murders - did no one see fit to freeze his assets or something? Either after he was imprisoned or after he broke out?
    • The Blip happened, along with the associated social and economic collapse


    I would think any one of those things would negatively impact his bottom line, with the possible exception of maybe some inheritance from the family members that died.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
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    I would think any one of those things would negatively impact his bottom line, with the possible exception of maybe some inheritance from the family members that died.
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    Agreed completely.

    However, since they're not in Sokovia when they (conveniently) walk into his stash of cars and weapons, presumably he has whatever shell accounts or financial shenanigans are necessary to escape even detailed notice.

    Though again, highly convenient. He's basically the Anti-Batman, complete with Anti-Alfred.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

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    Considering he knew he wasn't walking away from his plan in Civil War without being captured at least, or dead at best really, it kind of makes sense he would have stashed away a portion of his resources as a just in case kind of measure.
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Originally Posted by Dragonus45
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    Considering he knew he wasn't walking away from his plan in Civil War without being captured at least, or dead at best really....
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    His plan involved not walking away. It was only because T'Challa followed Steve and Bucky, and stopped Zemo from committing suicide, that Zemo is still alive.

    That, in turn, was because Zemo had no idea that T'Challa existed, or that killing the ruler of a tiny, inconsequential African country could have had any unforeseen ramifications. This also argues very strongly that Black Panther was unknown outside of Wakanda before this time, at least in the MCU, since otherwise Zemo probably would have picked a different day to bomb the UN.

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    His plan involved not walking away. It was only because T'Challa followed Steve and Bucky, and stopped Zemo from committing suicide, that Zemo is still alive.

    That, in turn, was because Zemo had no idea that T'Challa existed, or that killing the ruler of a tiny, inconsequential African country could have had any unforeseen ramifications. This also argues very strongly that Black Panther was unknown outside of Wakanda before this time, at least in the MCU, since otherwise Zemo probably would have picked a different day to bomb the UN.
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    Yes I know, I said as much. But given the level of scheming he was acting on I don't think it would be unreasonable for him to have a backup plan for if he survived.
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  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

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    More likely he had everything set up long beforehand, when he was running the Sokovian kill squad. It would've been sensible for him to have a fallback strategy if he needed to leave Sokovia in a hurry.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    More likely he had everything set up long beforehand, when he was running the Sokovian kill squad. It would've been sensible for him to have a fallback strategy if he needed to leave Sokovia in a hurry.
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    it's also just not unreasonable that he had a lot of his assets in foreign countries anyway.
    He's a wealthy Baron, most of his money isn't going to be in gold vaults in his basement. Like, even were he NOT a spy, having his money in German or Swiss banks, or invested in financial concerns across the world, isn't unreasonable.

    Also, We've seen that he has a private plane, a single loyal servant, and a warehouse full of cars and supplies, collected by his family over generations, presumably with the rent being paid by a shell corporation or something. All those probably predate the fall of Sokovia, and wouldn't exactly be impacted that much. The physical objects can sit in the warehouse, taxes and rent can be paid by the shell company.

    It's not clear that he actually has a ton of liquid capital to burn. The biggest expense would be maintenance and fuel for the private jet. Otherwise, he's just got some Stuff lying around.


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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    More likely he had everything set up long beforehand, when he was running the Sokovian kill squad. It would've been sensible for him to have a fallback strategy if he needed to leave Sokovia in a hurry.
    This seems likely to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    it's also just not unreasonable that he had a lot of his assets in foreign countries anyway.
    He's a wealthy Baron, most of his money isn't going to be in gold vaults in his basement. Like, even were he NOT a spy, having his money in German or Swiss banks, or invested in financial concerns across the world, isn't unreasonable.

    Spoiler
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    But here’s the thing: the Blip also happened, which should have wrecked havoc with all of the banks, stock market, etc. It’s not impossible that he had some savings accounts survive or something, it just seems contrived.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    But here’s the thing: the Blip also happened, which should have wrecked havoc with all of the banks, stock market, etc. It’s not impossible that he had some savings accounts survive or something, it just seems contrived.
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    Yeah, but the MCU's take on the blip seems to be that it was impossibly nondisruptive. You didn't see half of all planes falling from the sky, or half of all cars in motion crashing as there's nobody behind the wheel.


    Like "Half of all planes in the air fall out of the sky" alone would have MASSIVE repercussions five years later. The Blip seems impossibly clean, civilization seems to have gone on roughly as it was before, just with fewer people around.
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Not as good, but I still enjoyed it. Specific comments:

    Spoiler: Zemo
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    Hey, so far he's actually playing fairly straight with them, as I hoped. I have no brilliant comments on his wealth, but it makes sense to me that a wealthy noble family from an unstable eastern European country would stash assets outside it and that at least some of those would survive the blip.


    Spoiler: Scientist
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    Okay, I guess our scientist here must have been allied with the Flagsmasher's in some way? Otherwise Karli reaching out regarding her morality chain doesn't make much sense. Maybe they talked about the kid earlier? I got the impression it was recently though.

    Also...what exactly was the plan here? In this universe it's absolutely transparent (see Isaih) that no government can be trusted with super-soldier serum. This guy recreated it out of his head in a couple of months. If Zemo hadn't shot the guy what were they gonna do with him?


    Spoiler: Sam
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    Sam is pretty hard done by by the plotting here. The phone call especially, is just...unfortunate example of the idiot ball.


    Spoiler: Bucky
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    Less firm grasp on idiot ball, firmer grasp on ignore-all-consequences ball. Hello lots of recordings of you violating your pardon terms. Goodbye pardon.


    Spoiler: Zemo, Part 2
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    Okay, the whole thing here is that they want the same thing. Why assist with an escape rather than use him ala Hannibal Lector as a resource while keeping him inside? Because they need him to get them in? Nah, once they've got a name and a location, they can (apparently) go ask all the questions they want with the full force of their scariness to back them up.


    Spoiler: Flagsmasher's
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    I complained about it with Hayward, I've complained about it with Nu-Cap, I'll complain about it here. I hate the jumping off the slippery slope.


    Spoiler: Global Committee of Shadowy Evil, Probably
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    Okay, six months of anything for any group larger than the Flagsmasher's core did not fit in the handful of SUVs they drove away in and I really hate the 'we'll let the mooks who are about to be murdered curse out their enemy, but be totally unable to respond to their claims.' Also...I'm no expert, but I don't think that's how car bombs work. It's parked outside, does massive damage in the building, but doesn't even pop the tires of the car parked quite close? That's a hell of a directionality to that car bomb.


    Spoiler: Flagsmasher's formula
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    Uh...why would Power Broker negotiate? He's lost the scientist who can reproduce it out of your bodies. He wants any leftover vials as that can presumably be copied. He's gonna grab you and torture you until one of you talks.


    Spoiler: Nu-Cap
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    Not much here this time. First scene seems intended to cast him as recklessly violent, except it's properly targeted and while the shove and the 'don't you know who I am' are curseword redacted and violations of protocol, it's quite a bit less than, say, kicking someone off the roof. And unless I'm confused, the guy we see is, indeed, the guy who was giving them shelter. Also...at the end, why would they need to go 'off-book'? Searching for an escaped Zemo seems like exactly the sort of mission they would get (seeing as how they're somehow wandering around eastern Europe chasing a tiny group of thieves and now terrorists).


    Spoiler: Sharon
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    Okay, lots of speculation about this. Just because it's the most boring thing I can think of, she's undercover in Madripor for the good guys. I'm not sure who the good guys would be, given that every power structure on the planet is incredibly corrupt in the MCU, but that's okay. Personally, I actually think her being exactly what she appears, a spy who's been burned and betrayed, by her agency, by her heroes and by her ideals, deciding to go rogue is far more interesting. Either way, I don't think she's really after the pardon that Sam promised her (without ANY ability to follow through, given that he's running around with Zemo, that has to be obvious to everyone).

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Spoiler: Sharon
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    At this point, I'm reasonably sure Carter is the Power Broker.

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
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    But here’s the thing: the Blip also happened, which should have wrecked havoc with all of the banks, stock market, etc. It’s not impossible that he had some savings accounts survive or something, it just seems contrived.
    Spoiler: Blip
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    It seems to me that having assets owned by a fictitious entity makes it more likely to survive the blip since someone who doesn't exist in the first place can't stop existing from the blip.

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Spoiler: Sharon
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    At this point, I'm reasonably sure Carter is the Power Broker.
    Spoiler: Sharon
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    This, minus the reasonably. I'm cautiously suspicious. She has a place in high town, throws big parties, hates Zemo, and has a prior interest in super soldiers. She has the skill to be the shooter that killed Selby, and was in the neighborhood, armed. Nagel had 20 doses stolen by someone who he still corresponds with. That's suspicious enough to get him burned. So she could be doing the same as John Walker, using the heroes to find the Flagsmashers.

    The big two hangups are the bounty going against and finding Nagel's lab going for. I think the bounty would have been placed by the Power Broker, and it seems like it was just a hassle for Sharon. However, Sharon finds the location of Nagel's lab and the only interference is bounty hunters. Not a peep from the Power Broker who should notice that kind of questioning. I would accept chalking up the bounty being necessary to keep up standards, just the same as I would accept the bounty hunters being the Power Broker's response to searching out Nagel's lab. If Sharon really is the Power Broker, getting a full pardon before revealing the full extent of her involvement could be a real win for her.

  18. - Top - End - #228
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    Spoiler: Blip
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    It seems to me that having assets owned by a fictitious entity makes it more likely to survive the blip since someone who doesn't exist in the first place can't stop existing from the blip.
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    He’d still need an accountant or something to keep track of all the money in fake companies, someone to maintain all those cars, some amount of security for same...I don’t know why I’m arguing. You’re right it’s not impossible. Just too contrived for my tastes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zalabim View Post
    Spoiler: Sharon
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    This, minus the reasonably. I'm cautiously suspicious. She has a place in high town, throws big parties, hates Zemo, and has a prior interest in super soldiers. She has the skill to be the shooter that killed Selby, and was in the neighborhood, armed. Nagel had 20 doses stolen by someone who he still corresponds with. That's suspicious enough to get him burned. So she could be doing the same as John Walker, using the heroes to find the Flagsmashers.

    The big two hangups are the bounty going against and finding Nagel's lab going for. I think the bounty would have been placed by the Power Broker, and it seems like it was just a hassle for Sharon. However, Sharon finds the location of Nagel's lab and the only interference is bounty hunters. Not a peep from the Power Broker who should notice that kind of questioning. I would accept chalking up the bounty being necessary to keep up standards, just the same as I would accept the bounty hunters being the Power Broker's response to searching out Nagel's lab. If Sharon really is the Power Broker, getting a full pardon before revealing the full extent of her involvement could be a real win for her.
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    This doesn’t prove or disprove it either way, but don’t forget she also went missing during the Snap. If she wasn’t actually Snapped - which I think is likely given that otherwise she’s only had six months to accumulate all that wealth - she’s certainly sneaky enough to have used the Snap to fake her death to lose any law enforcement on her tail.

  19. - Top - End - #229
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Originally Posted by BRC
    You didn't see half of all planes falling from the sky, or half of all cars in motion crashing as there's nobody behind the wheel.
    We caught a glimpse of this in the mid-credits scene for Infinity War, when we did see cars suddenly empty and crashing, and a helicopter spinning into the side of a building. That was just a snapshot, but it's fair to assume that was the scene all around the world.

    Originally Posted by ecarden
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    If Zemo hadn't shot the guy what were they gonna do with him?
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    For a start, not murdered him in cold blood, because heroes aren’t supposed to do that.


    Originally Posted by ecarden
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    *Sam & Bucky idiot balls*
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    Yeah, I’m not sure why a) Sam didn’t just send Sarah’s call to voicemail, and b) Bucky didn’t have an actual disguise. If all they needed was muscle, then Bucky could’ve worn a mask, and continued concealing his arm.

    It may have suited Zemo for Bucky to be re-outed as the Winter Soldier, but I don't see why Bucky just went along with it. He worked as an operative himself, he should have the spy cred to come up with a better alternative.


    Originally Posted by JadedDM
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    At this point, I'm reasonably sure Carter is the Power Broker.
    Spoiler
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    I hope not, because that would just feel cutesy and trite.


    Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
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    He’d still need an accountant or something to keep track of all the money in fake companies, someone to maintain all those cars, some amount of security for same….
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    I have a feeling that Oeznik is the family’s one remaining loyal employee, who maintains the cars and the accounts.

    Whether or not the accounts would have survived the Snap is a good question, but presumably the Zemos have diversified over the years, and they probably have stockpiles of all sorts.

  20. - Top - End - #230
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    ClericGuy

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    For a start, not murdered him in cold blood, because heroes aren’t supposed to do that.


    Right, but this is one of my bigger pet peeves. For a story to work for me (at least if my brain is on) then the protagonist and antagonist plans need to make sense, at least on a 'based on the information you have, barring other unexpected interference, there's a reasonable chance this would work and accomplish what you're trying to do.' ETA: Assuming the character is supposed to be sane and not incompetent.

    Zemo actually works for me here, unlike some folks, because at least my interpretation of the character isn't 'had a brilliant master plan which worked perfectly in civil war,' but had a goal 'break up the avengers' and recognized the best tool for that was Bucky and pursued that entirely. It was only once he could question Bucky that different specifics came into play. Same thing could have been done by forcing Bucky to start assassinating avengers, or Stark employees, until the conflict broke open. This requires some specific knowledge of Hydra and what happened in Steve/Bucky's earlier conflict, but nothing extreme.

    Zemo still works for this here. He's mostly out of the information loop, but pursues his goals efficiently and gathers information intelligently. Contrast that with Bucky and Sam.

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    At the start of this, I don't believe they know that the serum was stolen, so going to the source isn't crazy as its their only lead (for some reason). But the Flagsmasher's are a small group. It seems sort of like going to an arms dealer and asking for the current location of a client. Why would they know that? Even if they hadn't been robbed.

    But their second goal is to stop production. So, again, going after the supplier makes sense. But what was the plan once they got him? They aren't here with support from any organization that can hold the guy. They have no support besides Sharon in Madripor. If Zemo hadn't killed the man, what was the plan? Fight their way out carrying him? Stuff him in the trunk of the car they didn't have? Okay, let's say they succeed at that. What do they do then? The man may have committed some crime? Maybe violated an NDA with the CIA? Maybe some light treason? But they had no basis to expect that. If he was just a random scientist hired to work this...the only way that's a crime is depending on the exact terms of the Sokovia Accords, which they are currently violating, if they even still exist!

    But, okay, most of that they didn't know at the time. They still knew they wanted to stop the production of serum. This man is doing it for money, for a massively powerful criminal. I mean, there's a chance he's a hostage and you can rescue him and he'll promise not to do it again, unless he's kidnapped again. But almost every other scenario ends with you needing to lock him up or kill him to stop him. They have no capability to lock him up. Breaking Zemo out and going on a little, visible, holiday with him burns them with most of the countries that might (this is without the whole, he was working for the CIA originally thing, as they didn't know that and couldn't reasonably predict it). I guess they might have contacts with Wakanda who would do it and could be trusted? But it's not clear to me what Wakanda's justice system is. I sort of hope it won't hold someone indefinitely incommunicado just because two guys say he has dangerous knowledge.

    I mean, to circle back a bit to D&D, I've certainly been in situations where I turned to the group and went, 'wait, what was the plan if we got this far?' and got a shrug in return as we hadn't thought things through. But (1) I sort of hope Sam and Bucky could do better than that. And (2) it wasn't this early in a plan.


    Spoiler: Resources
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    On Zemo, the man is a ruthless killer, but two quick points. First, on the hypocrisy angle given the suffering of Sokovians. There's something to this, definitely. But remember, his father was alive until Age of Ultron and afterward, he was spending his time hunting HYDRA, not helping anyone. This is bad, he's a villain, but the actual time period he had control of those resources is short before he ends up in jail and can't touch any resources without them being seized by a government or a lawyer who's suing him civilly.

    Second, on surviving the blip. I assume all the resources which survived were outside Sokovia already. But given the country's instability, that's not shocking. A wealthy noble in an unstable region hedges his bets on the theory that he may be able to run, but won't be able to take his manor with him. And the actual resources we see are a private plane, presumably grounded as he was during the blip, maybe the container of cars, which are pretty clearly stashed indefinitely, one servant and enough cash to refuel. My guess is most of his wealth did go up with Sokovia, or is inaccessible with the fall of the nation, but not the 'revolution has come, this keeps us fed and clothed to the style we're accustomed to,' caches. Which, since a new government might well pursue bank accounts and such (as I expect various folks did when Zemo was arrested, via civil suits) would probably be all he has left.
    Last edited by ecarden; 2021-04-03 at 09:26 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #231
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
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    At this point, I'm reasonably sure Carter is the Power Broker.
    That’s where my mind went to, however:

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    There will have to be one hell of a reveal for her motivations. She worked her way to the head of a criminal organization, managed to gain control of the guy who recreated the freaking super soldier serum. And then sent people, one a known villain who wants to make certain the serum never returns, right to where she was keeping him. And then had her people come attack just to kill them all anyway.

    It’s either sloppy writing trying to get a gut punch reveal down the line. Or she has some very tangled plan that involves killing one of her best assets. That’s not impossible to set up, but it is hard to make such a plan make sense.

    Though honestly, I’m curious why Cap didn’t pick her up when his team went on the run. Seems an odd choice to make. I think it’s just used as an explanation as to why she does not appear in later already overstuffed with characters movies. But just kinda leaves questions.

  22. - Top - End - #232
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    That’s where my mind went to, however:

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    There will have to be one hell of a reveal for her motivations. She worked her way to the head of a criminal organization, managed to gain control of the guy who recreated the freaking super soldier serum. And then sent people, one a known villain who wants to make certain the serum never returns, right to where she was keeping him. And then had her people come attack just to kill them all anyway.

    It’s either sloppy writing trying to get a gut punch reveal down the line. Or she has some very tangled plan that involves killing one of her best assets. That’s not impossible to set up, but it is hard to make such a plan make sense.

    Though honestly, I’m curious why Cap didn’t pick her up when his team went on the run. Seems an odd choice to make. I think it’s just used as an explanation as to why she does not appear in later already overstuffed with characters movies. But just kinda leaves questions.
    Spoiler
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    Actually, what if Carter was the link between the Flagsmashers and the Producer? She wanted people like Steve to get their chance at heroism, and she stole the doses for them

  23. - Top - End - #233
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
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    Actually, what if Carter was the link between the Flagsmashers and the Producer? She wanted people like Steve to get their chance at heroism, and she stole the doses for them
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    Wouldn’t surprise me. She is already incredibly sketchy to me right now. First a sniper takes out the bar owner. Then instead of even trying to snipe Sam, Bucky and Nemo they immediately put out a bounty blaming them for the kill. Then Carter appears out of nowhere and snipes the bounty hunters, with no explanation why she was in the area.

    Also if the first sniper wanted them dead why not try to snipe them too? I think Carter was the first sniper and the link to the Flagsmashers. She didn’t want them to figure out that she is the link to the Flagsmashers but she also didn’t want to kill them, so she used the bounty hunters to chase them off. That also explains how she found the producer so fast and how the bounty hunters found them at the producer’s secret hideout so fast. She also got motive. She is clearly very disenchanted with the current status quo, just like the Flagsmashers.

  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Clertar's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
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    Actually, what if Carter was the link between the Flagsmashers and the Producer? She wanted people like Steve to get their chance at heroism, and she stole the doses for them
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    I was going to say that. Her last line when getting in the car sounded like she was going to warn the Flagsmashers that they have those guys behind them. It also fits how easily she was convinced to track down that lab---that was the door to more doses of the serum.

    Narratively, she is jaded and has lost her belief in the old world ways. Not a mercenary type, but I could see her become a disillusioned anti-system activist in a way that Steve Rogers himself was veering towards between the Civil and the Infinity wars.

    Edit: Also, how does the timeline work for that? Zemo knew the Power Broker during his shady times, albeit had never met 'him' personally. If Sharon became the Power Broker after Civil War, when Zemo was already in detention, that would make it a new unfamiliar big name for Zemo.

    Last edited by Clertar; 2021-04-04 at 05:15 PM.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

  25. - Top - End - #235
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    Kitten Champion's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    I don't know if this has been suggested 'cause I hate looking through each and every Spoiler block, but...

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    I'm guessing - and again, I have about 20% win-rate here - that the Power Broker will be Tony Leung's Mandarin. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings is coming early this September and having the Villain for that tie loosely into this plot and also establishing Madripoor as a location in the MCU could be a bit of light setup.

    I say this in part because I don't believe confronting and defeating the Power Broker is relevant to The Falcon & Winter Solider's overall plot, he's an enigmatic background antagonist with a sufficient role as to be significant but not enough to where we the audience need to see him dead/in prison. it'd be easy to have a post-credit scene with Leung as the Mandarin character looking like however they've redesigned him to be less Fu Manchu-ish.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2021-04-04 at 05:06 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #236
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    I actually thought the Black Widow movie would play a part in this series.
    I assumed in addition to that gadget they'd also secure samples of the Black Widow version of the serum Bucky secured from Stark.
    Then reveal the serum they recovered from the only other successful test subject was incomplete until they combined the formulas using that for this Nagel's version of the super soldier serum except its clearly not as potent.
    Given how they handled Wandavision I'm not surprised they don't seem to be developing such ideas as having the Mandarin be behind the Power Broker.
    It would be an interesting reveal, but I doubt they put that much thought into this.

    Still a few more episodes to go to prove otherwise is it likely they will produce another season with these tv series?

  27. - Top - End - #237
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Originally Posted by Hopeless
    I assumed in addition to that gadget they'd also secure samples of the Black Widow version of the serum Bucky secured from Stark.
    What gadget? And what Black Widow serum? I’d always thought she was highly trained rather than enhanced.

    Originally Posted by Hopeless
    Still a few more episodes to go to prove otherwise is it likely they will produce another season with these tv series?
    Wandavision seemed to be a one-shot limited series, since the ending is an easy lead-in to the Dr. Strange movie.

    As for Falcon & Winter Soldier, they’re advertising it as a “six-part mini-series event” or something like that. Probably a little more potential for a second mini-series, since it seems less likely this will be leading straight to a movie.

  28. - Top - End - #238
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Widow has a Russian super serum in the comics, but its never been addressed in the MCU.

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Never knew that.

    I would prefer the character without it. The MCU has too many sorcerers super-soldiers as it is.

  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Starbuck_II's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Falcon & Winter Soldier

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    What gadget? And what Black Widow serum? I’d always thought she was highly trained rather than enhanced.
    Not exactly.
    They are enhanced: obedience and physically boosted.
    According to google: "enhanced by biotechnology that makes her body resistant to aging and disease and heals at an above human rate; as well as psychological conditioning that suppresses her memory of true events as opposed to implanted ones of the past without the aid of specially designed system suppressant drugs"

    Not to Cap America amounts. But very similar.

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