The Falcon & Winter Soldier

[Tyndmyr]

In contrast, when something goes badly wrong for Bruce his typical reaction is to go bury himself somewhere no one will find him, which he did. HeÂ’s not the kind of guy to seek out the spotlight even when everything is going right.

I do agree that you would need some reason to explain why Bruce couldn't run away from his problems this time. I think that can be overcome, though. I could see him accepting a certain degree of oversight if it means peace.

That said, Hulk is a bit hard to write up as the sort of non violent combatant we see people trying for in the Airport scene. He, uh, tends to aim lethal.

Anyways, on to episode 3.

Lots more action in this one. The last two had the slow setup that's sort of necessary, but this one got a bit more entertaining.

Spoiler

Show

I do agree that the escape seemed...unreasonably easy. And they're trying to soft pedal Zemo's evil a 'lil bit. But he was a fun character to watch, and I'm not at all surprised he offed the super serum scientist. Don't know why Bucky and Sam were shocked at that. This dude legit hates super soldiers, why'd you think he'd let that guy live?

I'm not even sure that Zemo is unreasonable here. The guy's straight up selling Super Soldier serum to terrorists. You've got essentially no options for capture and confinement. Straight killing the guy isn't morally a perfect option, but it's not much different from shooting the bomb maker for a terrorist org. Honestly, in one episode, Zemo has become almost a more compelling protagonist than the main two.

I do agree that they seem to go back and forth on the blip. Some make it out to be a big deal(sort of the whole motivation for the Flag Smashers), whereas other things just ignore it. A forgotten vault or something being found...okay. I can justify that. But hiding planes and stuff is a pretty big deal. Probably not wholly realistic, though it's not uncommon for money to be less a problem in movies than in real life.

I agree that Sam having his phone on seemed...dumb. I would expect this to also be something Zemo specifically checked for.

Flagsmashers seem....dumb. Like, you wanna bomb the building? Okay. Why sit literally on the edge of the blast radius and not tell your team? Either set the timer longer or something. You're just trying to get yourselves killed by mistake. None of this seems smart. In real life, they'd all be dead, because car bombs that trash buildings are not safe to sit next to while they explode.

Also, did Cap not care about Sharon getting exiled? That seems odd. I feel like at some point in the five years he'd have found out and not just ignored it? I also don't get why she flips so fast. Sam claiming he can get her back in seems dodgy as hell. I do hope she ends up having other motivations.

[Cikomyr2]

Spoiler

Show

Also, what if they arrested him, extradited him and gave him over to... The United States?

The same US who actually funded this guy 's research? The same US who imprisoned Isaiah Bradley for 30 years and abused him for his blood to develop more super soldiers?

[Clertar]

Spoiler

Show

Also, what if they arrested him, extradited him and gave him over to... The United States?

The same US who actually funded this guy 's research? The same US who imprisoned Isaiah Bradley for 30 years and abused him for his blood to develop more super soldiers?

Spoiler

Show

Zemo himself is an answer to that: a trial, and subsequent prison sentence. In an imperfect world, there are just imperfect solutions. Otherwise, unless the Avengers become a death squad, this issue will keep resurfacing.

[BRC]

Spoiler

Show

Zemo himself is an answer to that: a trial, and subsequent prison sentence. In an imperfect world, there are just imperfect solutions. Otherwise, unless the Avengers become a death squad, this issue will keep resurfacing.

Spoiler

Show

I think the fear in this case is that he wouldn't go to Jail. He wouldn't be punished at all, he'd just start making serum for the CIA instead of the Power Broker. There's no authority they could hand him over to that would be more interested in punishing him for his crimes than using him for his talents.

[Gallowglass]

So here's a problem with Super-Hero narratives. They are extremely fragile. They are based on the black/white morality plays, same as westerns, crime dramas, and so on.

You have a hero, and you want that hero to do heroic things. You don't want that hero to be a murderer (well, you do if you are a punisher fan I guess), you want your hero to have a clear moral superiority to their enemies. That's fine.

You want your hero to win. to overcome their foes and their foes to be justly punished.

All of that is easy to write in a story. Its hard to maintain in a universe. When you want to add nuance and history and reuse villains it starts running hard against believability.

this discussion is just one example of that. Our heroes overcome the bad guy and do what with him? They don't kill him, so he does to prison. But when one the bad guys becomse the authority that would be responsible for that punishment your heroes start breaking down. Now what do they do?

Start killing the bad guys? To some that would be a fine solution. To others it undermines the entire heroic nobility of the hero in the first place.

Even if they do start killing them then what? The punisher runs into this. He kills all his foes, so we cant' reuse those foes, so he ends up fighting a nearly identical string of copycat villains with no history and so the stories become boring and repetitive.

We LIKE having villains that have history. We like Zemo coming back. We like building relationships over time. We can't do that if they all die in the movie/show that introduces them.

the only solution, we have as viewers, it to chose NOT to look too closely at the curtain. Not nitpick the eminently nitpickable flaws that are there because it would be an exhausting and not-at-all satisfying procedure to concoct "answers" for all these questions that would cut into the story time.

Yes. It is ridiculous that Sharon is still "on the run". that Captain America never did anything about it, that it outlasted the snap and the unsnapping. Utterly ridiculous. But they did it because it puts the character into an interesting place for the current story (their opinion, not mine) and serves the current story. It would be less satisfying to make a new character to fit that story-gap, or to bring in Sharon and have her just infodump what has happened to her over the last seven years rather than show her in current state.

[Cikomyr2]

Spoiler

Show

Zemo himself is an answer to that: a trial, and subsequent prison sentence. In an imperfect world, there are just imperfect solutions. Otherwise, unless the Avengers become a death squad, this issue will keep resurfacing.

Spoiler

Show

like it's been said, there's no way in hell that the United States would do any of the following :

- have one of their own ex scientist stand trial
- imprison and leave unexploited the scientist work

There was no justice to be had from the US there. They already co-opted the memory of Captain America for their own ends.

[ecarden]

Regarding Dr. Nagle, uh...what crime has he actually committed?

Spoiler

Show

There's no indication of human testing, or violation of whatever passes for law in Madripor. He arguably stole government secrets when he went off, but that is something the US would have to charge him with.

Now, this appears to be a violation of the Sokovia Accords, but I see no sign that Madripor is a signatory and it would be pretty hard to swallow if Sam and Bucky tried to arrest someone for that.

[Tyndmyr]

Dr. Nagle

Spoiler

Show

Oh, they certainly lack jurisdiction to arrest him legally.

But terrorism/etc based outside of a country isn't just ignored. You can perhaps draw a parallel to the days of piracy. Just because the ship isn't anchored in your waters and doesn't recognize your laws doesn't mean that it's gonna be ignored, yknow? So long as the end result is your ships being sunk, you're going to care.

In his case, the end result is terrorists getting superpowers.

[ecarden]

Dr. Nagle

Spoiler

Show

Oh, they certainly lack jurisdiction to arrest him legally.

But terrorism/etc based outside of a country isn't just ignored. You can perhaps draw a parallel to the days of piracy. Just because the ship isn't anchored in your waters and doesn't recognize your laws doesn't mean that it's gonna be ignored, yknow? So long as the end result is your ships being sunk, you're going to care.

In his case, the end result is terrorists getting superpowers.

Spoiler

Show

But they stole them. If you're a legal arms manufacturer and someone steals your guns, you are not a criminal. As far as I can tell, what he's doing is legal in Madripor and he didn't sell them to anyone.

[Gallowglass]

Regarding Dr. Nagle, uh...what crime has he actually committed?

You may as well ask, by what authority are Sam and Bucky pursuing this investigation. They aren't working on a direct contract/assignment for the U.S. government. They are operating completely under their own authority and their own perogative. Which, in this universe, is something "Avengers" apparently do. Some freelance, cross border nebulous authority that works until someone stands up and says "no" to them.

Amazingly, this is the same authority the Avengers in the comic book operated under for most of their history. The times they worked for SHIELD or the government or the UN were overwhelmingly the minority, not the majority. they found a bad guy, they beat the bad guy, the bad guy ended up in "jail" for some reason. The way they made the sausage was largely left offscreen.

Someone is making supersoldiers. Those supersoldiers are committing "acts".
Sam and Buck start investigating who is making supersoldiers. At this point "stopping them" is secondary to "learning who it is"
So they were following the clues to find out who is doing it. I don't think they knew for sure what they were going to do when they found out. Zemo (conveniently for the story) took care of that problem for them. Because that's Zemo's purpose in the story. Not protaganist but to clean up the inconvenient threads to spare Sam and Buck from having to make difficult choices.

[ecarden]

You may as well ask, by what authority are Sam and Bucky pursuing this investigation. They aren't working on a direct contract/assignment for the U.S. government. They are operating completely under their own authority and their own perogative. Which, in this universe, is something "Avengers" apparently do. Some freelance, cross border nebulous authority that works until someone stands up and says "no" to them.

I think there's two different questions. There's certainly the 'how do you have jurisdiction/authority question, which the MCU and superhero media generally skip around. But there's another question, what crime was committed. That part usually isn't skipped, because we show the villain killing/stealing/kidnapping/assaulting someone. Should the Avengers be doing the arresting? Probably not, but that's different from 'was there even a crime committed here?'

Doing research into human enhancement isn't illegal (outside Sokovia accords or illegal research techniques).

Amazingly, this is the same authority the Avengers in the comic book operated under for most of their history. The times they worked for SHIELD or the government or the UN were overwhelmingly the minority, not the majority. they found a bad guy, they beat the bad guy, the bad guy ended up in "jail" for some reason. The way they made the sausage was largely left offscreen.

Again, I disagree here. If a citizen's arrest is made, the person can still be charged/convicted by the proper authorities.

ETA: This'll obviously depend on the crime. If Spiderman grabs some mugger and dumps him in a police station, you may not have any evidence. The Avengers stomp on Loki after he attacks New York, evidence isn't a problem (probably, depending on various things like magic and mind control...)

Someone is making supersoldiers. Those supersoldiers are committing "acts".
Sam and Buck start investigating who is making supersoldiers. At this point "stopping them" is secondary to "learning who it is"
So they were following the clues to find out who is doing it. I don't think they knew for sure what they were going to do when they found out. Zemo (conveniently for the story) took care of that problem for them. Because that's Zemo's purpose in the story. Not protaganist but to clean up the inconvenient threads to spare Sam and Buck from having to make difficult choices.

This I do agree with. As I mention in my earlier comment, I don't know what the plan was with this guy if Zemo hadn't killed him and I find that an annoying indictment of Bucky/Sam's planning skills and preparation for this.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr

Spoiler

Show

You can perhaps draw a parallel to the days of piracy. Just because the ship isn't anchored in your waters and doesn't recognize your laws doesn't mean that it's gonna be ignored, yknow?

Spoiler: Pirates & Crimes

Show

Even pirates received trials, and there was a process in place for crimes committed on the high seas.

And as noted, it’s not clear what crimes the scientist actually committed, other than doing science. If that’s the only criterion, then wouldn’t it be justified to eliminate Abraham Erskine, since he was responsible for the first iteration of super-soldier serum?

Originally Posted by Gallowglass

Spoiler

Show

Because that's Zemo's purpose in the story. Not protaganist but to clean up the inconvenient threads to spare Sam and Buck from having to make difficult choices.

Spoiler: Zemo & Purpose

Show

Which would be an extremely poor reason to include the character. If Sam and Bucky are going to be the heroes, they need to confront these issues directly and make their own decisions, rather than allow a third party to usurp their moral agency.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler: Zemo & Purpose

Show

Which would be an extremely poor reason to include the character. If Sam and Bucky are going to be the heroes, they need to confront these issues directly and make their own decisions, rather than allow a third party to usurp their moral agency.

Spoiler

Show

Second this; as-is ‘cleaning up loose ends so the heroes can keep their hands clean’ seems to be the writer’s reason for Zemo to hang around, it really shouldn’t be Sam nor Bucky’s.

[BRC]

Spoiler: Pirates & Crimes

Show

Even pirates received trials, and there was a process in place for crimes committed on the high seas.

And as noted, it’s not clear what crimes the scientist actually committed, other than doing science. If that’s the only criterion, then wouldn’t it be justified to eliminate Abraham Erskine, since he was responsible for the first iteration of super-soldier serum?

Spoiler: Zemo & Purpose

Show

Which would be an extremely poor reason to include the character. If Sam and Bucky are going to be the heroes, they need to confront these issues directly and make their own decisions, rather than allow a third party to usurp their moral agency.

Spoiler

Show

As far as Crimes.

I think the biggest "Crime" we could pin this guy on is, basically, knowingly working for criminal organizations.

We know that he was initially hired by HYDRA, and the way he talked about it, he knew it and had no problems with it.

So, the guy was a knowing employee of HYDRA, which is certainly a crime.
After that, he went to the CIA, then the Power Broker.

"Making Weapons for the Power Broker" is probably hard to pin as a crime? Like, even under the assumption that super-soldier serums are legally "Weapons", who knows what sort of pseudolegal apparatus the Power Broker has set up around their operation.

As far as literal, would-stand-up-in-court crimes that we know this guy did? Aiding and Abetting notorious terrorist organization HYDRA.

And the CIA decided that wasn't worth punishing him for.

[Cikomyr2]

Spoiler

Show

Second this; as-is ‘cleaning up loose ends so the heroes can keep their hands clean’ seems to be the writer’s reason for Zemo to hang around, it really shouldn’t be Sam nor Bucky’s.

Spoiler

Show

Zemo is useful. He has been reliable even in a pinch so far. His only act of betrayal was a moral act in a controlled environment, instead of abusing Bucky/Wilson's moments of weakness.

It sucks, but they want to be done with this investigation.

[Palanan]

So, I’ve noticed a pattern to Sam’s behavior, which I hope is part of his character development.

Spoiler

Show

Right from the start, in the first minutes of the first episode, we see that Sam is completely Cool Hand Luke when he’s in the air. When he’s got his wings on, he’s calm, rational and in control. Military choppers firing heat-seeking missiles? That’s just regular traffic on his morning commute.

But when he’s Joe Guy on the ground, Sam gets flustered easily, and he often seems in over his head. When his phone rang and he saw it was Sarah, he simply froze up, and his fumbled attempts to bluff it out (“when I have that banker killed,” etc.) did everyone more harm than good. To a lesser extent it was the same during his interaction with the Baltimore PD.

What I’m seeing so far is that Sam is good in tactical situations where he’s able to draw on his training and experience, but much less so outside of that zone. Everyone is being really hard on him for giving up the shield, but I think he made the right move based on his understanding of himself at that moment. When he gave up the shield, he genuinely wasn’t ready to be Captain America, and he shouldn’t have to apologize to anyone for that.

I’m hoping that we’ll see this addressed in the remaining episodes, with Sam showing some personal growth in the areas where he needs it, so that by the end of the series he will be ready to be Captain America. But we only have three episodes left, so that’s a tall order for an already busy storyline.

[ecarden]

Spoiler

Show

As far as Crimes.

I think the biggest "Crime" we could pin this guy on is, basically, knowingly working for criminal organizations.

We know that he was initially hired by HYDRA, and the way he talked about it, he knew it and had no problems with it.

So, the guy was a knowing employee of HYDRA, which is certainly a crime.
After that, he went to the CIA, then the Power Broker.

"Making Weapons for the Power Broker" is probably hard to pin as a crime? Like, even under the assumption that super-soldier serums are legally "Weapons", who knows what sort of pseudolegal apparatus the Power Broker has set up around their operation.

As far as literal, would-stand-up-in-court crimes that we know this guy did? Aiding and Abetting notorious terrorist organization HYDRA.

And the CIA decided that wasn't worth punishing him for.

Hard to say:

Spoiler

Show

Certainly if he was knowingly working for Hydra at the time, then that might be a crime (though I don't know if the statute of limitations would have passed given the time passage, also, I'll just say I don't even want to think about what the blip would do to that question. You commit a crime with a three year statute of limitations, blip out as you're being arrested and the come back...what happens? Are you just free to go?) but I have a hard time believing Hydra would tell him that. Maybe he was a true believer back then, but seems likelier he thought he was working for someone else and only realized it was Hydra after they 'came out of the shadows.'

[Tyndmyr]

Spoiler

Show

But they stole them. If you're a legal arms manufacturer and someone steals your guns, you are not a criminal. As far as I can tell, what he's doing is legal in Madripor and he didn't sell them to anyone.

Spoiler

Show

Madripor seems to be a ludicrously sketchy area, though. It's like being an international arms dealer in a mostly lawless area. If those weapons end up in the hands of terrorists, and those terrorists are using those arms to blow up stuff in big countries...those countries are gonna try to stop the problem.

Probably including clamping down on those arms dealers.

Yeah, it can be an international incident...and Sam and Bucky realistically could start one of those with their actions. But realistically, something needs to be done to ensure that this won't happen again. The Power Broker is, I presume, the sort of person who is likely to sell these vials, so if the situation is allowed to continue, well, you get more super soldiers smashing up more people.

It'd certainly be better to lock the guy up than to kill him, but Sam and Bucky probably don't have any good way to do that. Zemo solves the problem, Sam and Bucky get to disapprove without having to come up with a better solution.

Doing research into human enhancement isn't illegal (outside Sokovia accords or illegal research techniques).

The real world has quite a lot of ethics rules and boards and such, including lengthy reviews before allowing testing stuff on real people. Something as drastic as a super soldier serum would probably have some very high hurdles to clear in this regard, and even if it were approved, it would take a long time. The time frame here seems to be the scientist recreating it in a couple of months, which indicates that exactly none of that took place. Therefore, it may be illegal/unethical. We do know that a *lot* of previous related experimentation in other MCU films went really, really badly, so that certainly frames such experimentation as at least pretty risky.

Spoiler

Show

Plus, yknow, working for Hydra.

Spoiler: Pirates & Crimes

Show

Even pirates received trials, and there was a process in place for crimes committed on the high seas.

And as noted, it’s not clear what crimes the scientist actually committed, other than doing science. If that’s the only criterion, then wouldn’t it be justified to eliminate Abraham Erskine, since he was responsible for the first iteration of super-soldier serum?

Spoiler

Show

I think it's a reasonable question to ask...why does the US in the MCU get to have super soldiers, but nobody else does? I'm not sure the show is going to answer this, but if we start delving into it, it's probably not going to look terribly innocent.

Largely, we've only seen this from Cap's perspective, and Cap was sort of the ideal use case for the serum. But sure, maybe Erskine had a lot of accidents before cap. The information we get about the serum amplifying behavior sort of does imply that, after all.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler

Show

I think it's a reasonable question to ask...why does the US in the MCU get to have super soldiers, but nobody else does? I'm not sure the show is going to answer this, but if we start delving into it, it's probably not going to look terribly innocent.

Spoiler

Show

Germany had the Red Skull back in World War II. Red Guardian might count too, we won’t know for sure until Natasha’s movie comes out but I gather he’s supposed to be the Russian equivalent to Captain America.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
The real world has quite a lot of ethics rules and boards and such, including lengthy reviews before allowing testing stuff on real people. Something as drastic as a super soldier serum would probably have some very high hurdles to clear in this regard, and even if it were approved, it would take a long time. The time frame here seems to be the scientist recreating it in a couple of months, which indicates that exactly none of that took place. Therefore, it may be illegal/unethical.

This is almost certainly the case. In the first Avengers movie, Phil Coulson tells Cap that a lot of people were trying to recreate the super-soldier serum, so there are probably laws specifically targeting experiments intended to create enhanced individuals.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr

Spoiler

Show

I think it's a reasonable question to ask...why does the US in the MCU get to have super soldiers, but nobody else does?

Spoiler

Show

Well, Abraham Erskine did develop the original serum while working for the U.S. government, so it may be considered proprietary, if that isn’t a legal anachronism. There’s a case that governments have an exclusive right to the proceeds of their own secret research.

Also, I don’t recall offhand, but there may have been a reciprocal agreement with the U.K., since Peggy Carter was a liaison officer? I haven't seen First Avenger in years, so a little fuzzy on the rationale for her being there.

[Tyrant]

Spoiler

Show

I think it's a reasonable question to ask...why does the US in the MCU get to have super soldiers, but nobody else does? I'm not sure the show is going to answer this, but if we start delving into it, it's probably not going to look terribly innocent.

Largely, we've only seen this from Cap's perspective, and Cap was sort of the ideal use case for the serum. But sure, maybe Erskine had a lot of accidents before cap. The information we get about the serum amplifying behavior sort of does imply that, after all.

It could be similar to nuclear weapons where almost every country who didn't have them agreed to not develop them. The non nuclear powers couldn't do much about the nuclear powers having the weapons, but they could maybe get their neighbors to agree to not build them. It could be a similar concept. The U.S. has Captain America and not much can be done about that, but everyone else can agree to not try to make their own version with the U.S. also, at least on paper, agreeing to not make any more.

Or it could just be that between the lack of notes, death of the original creator, relative lack of samples, and many countries having other things to worry about, most countries couldn't make them even if they wanted to. Unlike nuclear weapons that are based on real world science that can be replicated, the Super Solider Serum is comic book science that was poorly documented so it is probably hard to even know where to start.

[Gallowglass]

It could be similar to nuclear weapons where almost every country who didn't have them agreed to not develop them. The non nuclear powers couldn't do much about the nuclear powers having the weapons, but they could maybe get their neighbors to agree to not build them. It could be a similar concept. The U.S. has Captain America and not much can be done about that, but everyone else can agree to not try to make their own version with the U.S. also, at least on paper, agreeing to not make any more.

Or it could just be that between the lack of notes, death of the original creator, relative lack of samples, and many countries having other things to worry about, most countries couldn't make them even if they wanted to. Unlike nuclear weapons that are based on real world science that can be replicated, the Super Solider Serum is comic book science that was poorly documented so it is probably hard to even know where to start.

Honestly, we have no reason to believe that other countries DON'T have super-soldiers. Obviously, some do. Black Widow previews show a very super-soldier-y Red Guardian for example. You can argue that "if we haven't seen it, it doesn't exist" but that's a pretty easy to dispute argument in the marvel universe where in iron man, superhumans didn't exist, except they did since WWII according to the later Captain America... except they did since early 800s according to the later Thor....

Steve Rogers and the Red Skull were the only Erskine super-soldiers... until apparently Bucky went from guy with metal arm to guy with Erskine supe-soldier formula AND a metal arm... until the Russians stole some new serum made by Stark and used it to make more super-soldiers.... until some rando remade the serum and started popping them out like Easter candies.

I'll believe that Sabra isn't running around Isreal and Peregrine isn't running around France and Captain Britain isn't running around England when they show them not being there. Marvel seems to really dig revealing someone has existed all along the first time they show up these days.

[Tyndmyr]

Black Panther is also kind of a super soldier, I guess?

It's based on an herb, not a serum, but the role appears to long predate the suit. Essentially, it's filling a similar role.

[Cikomyr2]

Black Panther is also kind of a super soldier, I guess?

It's based on an herb, not a serum, but the role appears to long predate the suit. Essentially, it's filling a similar role.

Black Panther is actually, in universe, a Super Hero for Wakanda. The Black Panther is akin to the Hercules or Maoi of the nation. A super powered individual, of good moral or not, who is nevertheless the defender of the culture.

A Hero.

[Starbuck_II]

Black Panther is actually, in universe, a Super Hero for Wakanda. The Black Panther is akin to the Hercules or Maoi of the nation. A super powered individual, of good moral or not, who is nevertheless the defender of the culture.

A Hero.

True, they don't know he is basically a super soldier.
They just think he is a super hero with a suit (at least those in the know like Avengers).
Only his chief advisors (like sister) and family (like his mom) know he is being dosed with a magical fruit/rock.
Remember, his half brother got Super Soldiered with the fruit/herb.


Since no one outside country is testing this, we don't know if there are side effects. Granted, his sister is pretty smart and knows science so we can assume she would have studied the effects to see if side effects and warned him.

[Wraith]

Only his chief advisors (like sister) and family (like his mom) know he is being dosed with a magical fruit/rock.

Not quite true - there's a huge crowd of people watching during T'Challa's first duel with M'Baku and they all watch as it's explained that the power of the Black Panther is being taken away for the fight. They're also there for the Killmonger fight when it happens again, and that he gets the Black Panther power when he wins.

I suppose one could argue that the observers might not know it's permanent - they may think that the bowl given at the start of the fights just turns the power off temporarily - but even if they don't recognise it as a Super Serum it's still pretty open that the Black Panther mantle is something that can be given and taken using the secret potion.

[Palanan]

LOVED this episode.

Fantastic top to bottom, easily the best so far. They’ve really hit their stride.

Spoiler: The Woman in Red

Show

Loved the Wakandan connection here, especially the glimpse into Bucky’s deprogramming.

More than that, there’s a sense of consequences here that often seems lacking in the MCU. Now that Ulysses Klaue is gone, Zemo is Public Enemy Number One for Wakanda, so it makes perfect sense the Dora Milaje would come after him.

But this raises an issue which I hope we’ll see explored in the Wakanda series—the question of how far Wakanda feels itself bound by international norms. Ayo said that Wakanda’s jurisdiction was wherever they wanted it to be, which has the potential for serious repercussions with every other nation on Earth.

We know that Black Panther operates wherever he feels the need, but prior to the Snap it was subtle—with the exception of T’Challa’s highly public pursuit of Bucky, which was probably out of bounds even by standard Black Panther ROE.

But the Dora Milaje operating openly in Eastern Europe is something else entirely. Was Wakanda doing this during the five years between Snap and De-Snap? Or is this the first time they’ve been outside their borders since the world went upside-down again?

Spoiler: Kill Switch

Show

It makes perfect sense that Bucky’s new arm would have a few tricks that only its creators would know about.

But in retrospect, it seems almost naive of Bucky that he wouldn’t have wondered about it. Although this is so soon after the De-Snap that he may have been too preoccupied trying to find his balance in a world that’s been destabilized twice, and with no Steve to boot.

Spoiler: The Price of Revolution

Show

Karli is nicely layered here—a revolutionary who casually talks about killing people for the cause, but when she sees it up close she’s still shaken by the consequences.

By most standards she’s a dangerous fanatic, and yet still able to have a genuine person-to-person conversation with Sam and really listen to him, rather than just spouting anti-establishment rhetoric. Full credit to Sam for having the skills to develop that conversation.

But in some ways Karli seems almost naive, especially after Lemar’s death. Karli still doesn’t fully understand the reality of the world she’s entered. There was a small window when she could still be reached—but John Walker and his shield have probably just closed that window permanently.

Spoiler: New Cap

Show

I don’t know anything about John Walker in the comics, but here it seems he’s fighting his own inadequacies more than anything else. “They weren’t even super-soldiers” was a telling comment—it sounds arrogant at first, but makes sense given the impossible pressures of his new role.

And yet it’s also more than a little self-pitying. Someone should’ve given him the Happy talk, the way Happy tells Peter Parker that no one can live up to Tony Stark. No one can live up to Steve Rogers either, but John Walker doesn’t seem to understand that.

Spoiler: Faster, Better, Cheaper?

Show

So, when exactly did John Walker take the serum?

And is it really as DIY as it seems? No special lab, no one in attendance, just shoot up and presto, you’re punching through walls? Given the timeline of the action here, it must not take very long at all.

Despite everyone using the same name, it seems to be a very different serum than what was used on Steve. It enhances performance, but without the obvious bulk that Erskine’s original formula produced. Otherwise Karli would need to be played by Gina Carano.

Spoiler: Sam, Meet Riga

Show

Sam is trained as a soldier, not a spy, but even so he should probably have a better technique than wandering around a strange city bluntly asking people if they know someone directly connected to a notorious terrorist.

And Sam should be streetwise enough to understand that. How is Zemo, the elitist aristocrat, better able to connect with people than Sam, who grew up working on a shrimp boat?

Spoiler: Sarah & Her Kids

Show

Given that Sam is a well-known member of the Avengers, I’d think that he and Sarah would have talked about specific plans for getting her family out of harm’s way if they were ever threatened. Not just “pack your stuff and go somewhere safe,” but “get your go-bags and take the kids to Safehouse B, using Alternate Route 3.”

Which comes back to the issue of the secret identity. No one should be surprised that Sam’s actions will bring danger to his family—not when he’s showing his face all over the world. Sarah is dealing with enough in her personal life as it is, but she should still be ready for random phone calls from dangerous super-people.

[Captain Cap]

Spoiler: Faster, Better, Cheaper?

Show

So, when exactly did John Walker take the serum?

And is it really as DIY as it seems? No special lab, no one in attendance, just shoot up and presto, you’re punching through walls? Given the timeline of the action here, it must not take very long at all.

Despite everyone using the same name, it seems to be a very different serum than what was used on Steve. It enhances performance, but without the obvious bulk that Erskine’s original formula produced. Otherwise Karli would need to be played by Gina Carano.

Spoiler

Show

In the previous episode the scientist mentioned that he improved the serum by making its effects more subtle and thus easier to hide.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Spoiler: The Woman in Red

Show

But this raises an issue which I hope we’ll see explored in the Wakanda series—the question of how far Wakanda feels itself bound by international norms. Ayo said that Wakanda’s jurisdiction was wherever they wanted it to be, which has the potential for serious repercussions with every other nation on Earth.

Second this. Might be a hurdle or antagonist talking point for Black Panther 2.

Spoiler: Kill Switch

Show

It makes perfect sense that Bucky’s new arm would have a few tricks that only its creators would know about.

But in retrospect, it seems almost naive of Bucky that he wouldn’t have wondered about it. Although this is so soon after the De-Snap that he may have been too preoccupied trying to find his balance in a world that’s been destabilized twice, and with no Steve to boot.

Spoiler

Show

In fairness to Bucky, it’s not unreasonable for him to assume he’s not going to be going toe-to-toe against Wakandan forces given that they’re allies at worst if not outright friends.

...then again, they did just have Sam get spied on via Redwing a few episodes back.

Spoiler: Sarah & Her Kids

Show

Given that Sam is a well-known member of the Avengers, I’d think that he and Sarah would have talked about specific plans for getting her family out of harm’s way if they were ever threatened. Not just “pack your stuff and go somewhere safe,” but “get your go-bags and take the kids to Safehouse B, using Alternate Route 3.”

Which comes back to the issue of the secret identity. No one should be surprised that Sam’s actions will bring danger to his family—not when he’s showing his face all over the world. Sarah is dealing with enough in her personal life as it is, but she should still be ready for random phone calls from dangerous super-people.

Second this too.

[BRC]

LOVED this episode.

Fantastic top to bottom, easily the best so far. They’ve really hit their stride.

Spoiler: Sam, Meet Riga

Show

Sam is trained as a soldier, not a spy, but even so he should probably have a better technique than wandering around a strange city bluntly asking people if they know someone directly connected to a notorious terrorist.

And Sam should be streetwise enough to understand that. How is Zemo, the elitist aristocrat, better able to connect with people than Sam, who grew up working on a shrimp boat?

Spoiler

Show

Sam is a Therapist by training, he's all about establishing trust, and trust goes both ways. He reaches out to the teacher, and hits a wall when the teacher says "I'm sorry, I cannot trust you". He imagines he can convince people to help him, once he establishes that trust.


Zemo is a Spy, and he know how to exploit Power dynamics. He reaches out to the children, he bribes them with candy and, what is for him, petty cash.

He doesn't try to establish Trust, he finds somebody he can wield Power over, and exploits that.

Spoiler: Smashing The Flags

Show

We get a good explanation for the Flag Smashers,

After the Snap, borders were opened and populations were resettled, people were welcomed. After the Unsnap, things are being forced back to how they were and the Flag Smashers object.

That's, actually a pretty well-rounded explanation for the Flag Smashers and what they do.


Karlie is an interesting character. I was expecting another generic take on "Good intentions but she WENT TOO FAR and DID A VIOLENCE!", instead we get this woman who is, frankly, completely out of her depth on the stage she's playing at.
Like, the bombing didn't really help her cause very much? But I'm also sold that she would do it, because, as presented, she has no idea what she's doing. She's full of posturing and lashing out.

Like, threatening Sarah. I believe her when she says she would never hurt Sarah, and Sarah would have passed the message along to Sam regardless.

Threatening Sarah was completely unnecessary, didn't serve any purpose except Antagonizing Sam. CALLING Sarah was already an escalation with implicit threat, but actually threatening her was Karlie trying to be the Big Scary Revolutionary.

And she's not ready to play at that level, she doesn't even do anything with that in the actual meeting.