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  1. - Top - End - #241
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    It's doable, yes. I've never argued against that.
    Getting started will likely require someone willing to be a pacifist and let their body be destroyed several times to get that first contact in to have the opportunity to chat: It'll be an uphill battle (a nightmare for some astral projection will likely save time on rejuvination).
    Each "vault" will likely need to be convinced separately (it's unlikely that they'll be talking to each other much, or trusting reports that the liches are, in fact, nice folks), so it'll be a repeated uphill battle.
    But it's doable for a group of liches who are willing to put in the effort.
    Agreed that it is individual.

    I guess it depends on how racist the world is / cultures are, but I was kinda assuming it wasn't exactly easy. That's precisely why this apocalyptic scenario provided an opportunity for undead PR that normally would be more difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    Social skills as written pretty much destroy worlds and world building. Realism does not work in dnd, nor does common sense in most cases.
    Thank you for summing that up so concisely.

    How the necropolis behaves - or even whether the apocalypse actually makes PR any easier - depends on the rules of the world, and how closely to RAW they adhere.

  2. - Top - End - #242
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Efrate
    On otyugh waste disposal, in pathfinder curse of the crimson throne AP the city has deals with otyughs who live in the sewers. So that is very much doable as far as that goes.
    Just to follow up on this, do you happen to remember which chapter this is in?

    Originally Posted by Maat Mons
    Isn't it in the lore that many of those fungi consume faerzress?
    Faerzress is specifically tied into Forgotten Realms lore, but Iím assuming that this scenario wonít be set in the Realms.

    Interesting link on radiotrophic fungi, though.

    Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
    Re: mushrooms, I would worry about nutritional deficiencies (this being another reason I keep trying to find ways to save the livestock too)Ö.
    I would worry about a diet of only mushrooms, but Iím assuming there will be vegetable gardening and some meat consumption, assuming all the other issues with underground agriculture can be worked out.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    ÖI was kinda assuming it wasn't exactly easy.
    Indeed.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    That's precisely why this apocalyptic scenario provided an opportunity for undead PR that normally would be more difficult.
    Leaving aside issues of game mechanics, Iím not convinced that survivors of a global apocalypse will be automatically better-disposed towards obvious undead. The survivors are likely to be even more afraid of the undead, since the survivors are doing their best to hide from the outside world, and being discovered by powerful undead wonít put anyoneís mind at ease.

  3. - Top - End - #243
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Leaving aside issues of game mechanics, Iím not convinced that survivors of a global apocalypse will be automatically better-disposed towards obvious undead. The survivors are likely to be even more afraid of the undead, since the survivors are doing their best to hide from the outside world, and being discovered by powerful undead wonít put anyoneís mind at ease.
    Timing, though - those who are *looking* for a way to survive may be more willing to accept help that they might normally reject.

    And those who have just had their orbs stolen by the evil empire might well welcome the collective strength of belonging to a larger community (really, the undead should have *paid* those guys to go raiding like they did - they couldn't have asked for a much better setup).

    Not everyone is trying to hide.

    Those with a sufficiently isolationist mindset (my own lycanthropes, for example), won't exactly be pleased - but, to the extent that reason prevails over fear, anyone with the appropriate skill set should also realize that wasting resources attacking them isn't beneficial.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2021-03-07 at 07:10 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #244
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    I believe in Curse of the crimson throne the otyguh stuff is ch. 1 and 2? In the description of the otyguh encounter as the pcs are going around town. It breaks through the street and its mentioned there. Also when in the sewers dealing with the wererats i think its brought up again. At work and AFB so i cannot give specifics.

  5. - Top - End - #245
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Efrate
    I believe in Curse of the crimson throne the otyguh stuff is ch. 1 and 2? In the description of the otyguh encounter as the pcs are going around town. It breaks through the street and its mentioned there.
    Found it, thanks. Otyughs are mentioned several times, and their one line of dialogue is ďWARM FOOD!Ē

    So, perhaps a mixed bag if youíre planning to be closed in a cave system with them for years on end.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    Timing, though - those who are *looking* for a way to survive may be more willing to accept help that they might normally reject.
    I think the necropolis is being somewhat overoptimistic about their chances for success. When itís the end of the world and powerful undead start showing up, no one is going to put much faith in their claims of sincerity.

    Apart from that, keep in mind that druids and clerics probably make up 50% of the spellcasters in the enclave, and the balance of their opinion will likely swing hard against the undead.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    And those who have just had their orbs stolen by the evil empire might well welcome the collective strength of belonging to a larger communityÖ.
    Iím seeing the Orb Kingdom as more lawful neutral, operating on the premise that theyíre best able to leverage their resources for the protection of the greatest number of people. Making hard choices doesnít necessarily mean the decision-makers are evil.

    Spoiler: BSG
    Show
    For anyone whoís seen the BSG miniseries, Iím thinking of President Roslinís decision to leave the sublight fleet behind. It means thousands of people are lost to Cylon missiles, but it also means tens of thousands more are able to escape.

  6. - Top - End - #246
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Iím seeing the Orb Kingdom as more lawful neutral, operating on the premise that theyíre best able to leverage their resources for the protection of the greatest number of people. Making hard choices doesnít necessarily mean the decision-makers are evil.

    Spoiler: BSG
    Show
    For anyone whoís seen the BSG miniseries, Iím thinking of President Roslinís decision to leave the sublight fleet behind. It means thousands of people are lost to Cylon missiles, but it also means tens of thousands more are able to escape.
    I'm pretty sure that ripping the FTL drives out of otherwise functional ships to add them to your own, then leaving the crews of those ships to die, OTOH, is far, far south of neutral territory here. (And a more accurate parallel to the kingdom as depicted thus far)
    Last edited by Quertus; 2021-03-09 at 02:12 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #247
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Sep 2014

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    The only reason the otyguh goes bonkers in curse of the crimson throne and breaks through to the surface is because there are powerful magical effects thats are being unleashed. A sealed Runelord and her things as well as a powerful dragon. Absent that it has been happy for a while to just be disposal. Throw a random raider or carcass of something to it occasionally if you are concerned.

  8. - Top - End - #248
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Jun 2014

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Found it, thanks. Otyughs are mentioned several times, and their one line of dialogue is ďWARM FOOD!Ē

    So, perhaps a mixed bag if youíre planning to be closed in a cave system with them for years on end.
    How well do they climb? Also theyíre Large size while most humans, elves etc are Medium correct? If you canít be on friendly enough terms to dump new garbage in the otyughís lair without getting attacked, make the entrance too small for a Large creature to pass through, and maybe have the entrance at the top of an artificially smoothed cliff so it canít reach anyone.

    If itís composting what we feed it, we could remove the new dirt/fertilizer with Unseen Servant. Or maybe build a funnel into the floor to deposit the dirt somewhere we could safely reach it? Or just temporarily disable the otyugh (sketchy on how to do that without hurting it; Sleep doesnít look strong enough or have a long enough duration) and send down some guys with a ladder and buckets.

    If theyíre living symbiotically with cities in other places someone must have worked out solutions to this. Or figured something else out; garbage disposal wonít be a new problem specific to the vault, the only really new aspect is putting it in a cave and maybe the amount of time we have to set it up.

  9. - Top - End - #249
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Otyughs as waste disposal had been a known thing since at least the 2e days - easily over 30 years IRL, and likely much longer in the game. This isn't something new that the vaults need to reinvent.

    EDIT: also, various slimes and oozes, but that's rarer and more dangerous.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2021-03-09 at 09:57 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #250
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Efrate
    Absent that it has been happy for a while to just be disposal.
    True, but on p. 50 of Edge of Anarchy thereís an otyugh which attacks the PCs on sight, simply because itís hungry. Scavengers and predators.

    Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
    If theyíre living symbiotically with cities in other places someone must have worked out solutions to this.
    Not sure how widespread this really is. Otyughs are mentioned in the 3.5 Waterdeep book, but only as disposal in the layers below Skullport and Undermountain. Apart from their mention in Korvosa, do they show up in any other cities from these or other settings?

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    Otyughs as waste disposal had been a known thing since at least the 2e days - easily over 30 years IRL, and likely much longer in the game. This isn't something new that the vaults need to reinvent.
    Do you have an example from 2E?

    Thereís a big difference between an otyugh somewhere deep in a monster-filled dungeon versus one thatís integrated into city waste disposal. By the standards of ordinary cityfolk, these are large and dangerous monsters, probably not something most people would want around.

    As for being sealed into a cave complex with oneóthe enclave could end up being a larder for a population of otyughs.

  11. - Top - End - #251
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Not sure how widespread this really is. Otyughs are mentioned in the 3.5 Waterdeep book, but only as disposal in the layers below Skullport and Undermountain. Apart from their mention in Korvosa, do they show up in any other cities from these or other settings?

    Do you have an example from 2E?

    Thereís a big difference between an otyugh somewhere deep in a monster-filled dungeon versus one thatís integrated into city waste disposal. By the standards of ordinary cityfolk, these are large and dangerous monsters, probably not something most people would want around.

    As for being sealed into a cave complex with oneóthe enclave could end up being a larder for a population of otyughs.
    Huh. You've already referenced their use for disposal in official sources - I doubt the 2e references will be significantly better. Yes, they aren't exactly the backbone of waste management for any official nations (that I'm aware of), but they have been used for that purpose by the "powerful" (often weaker than the proposed vaults).

    Part of the issue with their use is, indeed, the threat that they pose, relative to the threat of "just toss it in the river", or other similar waste disposal methods.

    However, trapped in a cave for 1,000 years, that equation changes. With "super bloated compared to your average adventuring party" numbers of level 12 characters hanging about? Even if the arrangement is simply "you guys stay in this dead end room, and eat our trash", it's not much resources to dedicate to keeping the vault safe - nor a particularly difficult negotiation (you want to eat our trash, we want you to eat our trash - done!).

    You could even run it as forced labor, and have parties of adventurers periodically clear out individual otyugh holding cells (waste reclamation center #7) for XP (assuming some trick to let / force them to spread out between them - controllable gates of the like), and it would still be functional and safe (relative to, say, injuries from modern waste disposal).

    All in all, it's been done, and it's low risk for something operating at the level of the vaults.

    Of course, how necessary this step is depends on how close to real-world physics the world cleaves, and how much recycling ecosystem the vault inhabitants bring with them.

    Pigs are another great way to recycle most things - including corpses - into useful products, like meat. So if the Druids readily understand anachronistic things like pollination and acid rain, common things like "waste disposal" should be a trivial problem for the vaults to solve. The CR of this challenge - figuratively and literally - is below the threshold of being a challenge.

    Although the 3d approach of "garbage in the top, Otyughs in the middle, compost out the bottom" is innovative.

  12. - Top - End - #252
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    You've already referenced their use for disposal in official sources - I doubt the 2e references will be significantly better.
    Iím just curious how widespread this might have been in 2E, interested in what the sources say.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    All in all, it's been done, and it's low risk for something operating at the level of the vaults.
    The perception of risk will be very different for most people in the vaults, so Iím thinking this is something they would avoid if at all possible.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    Pigs are another great way to recycle most things - including corpses - into useful products, like meat. So if the Druids readily understand anachronistic things like pollination and acid rain, common things like "waste disposal" should be a trivial problem for the vaults to solve.
    I think pigs are much more likely to be the default approach here, since theyíre probably the most common livestock after chickens. You canít really run cows underground, but hogs and chickens will do much better.

    Also, if this hasnít been mentioned before, catfish are easily farmed and another good way to handle certain types of waste.

  13. - Top - End - #253
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Jun 2014

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    I found this - thereís a chart for garbage composition from 1892 onwards about halfway down. It doesnít include magical waste for obvious reasons, but maybe useful as a jumping-off point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    The perception of risk will be very different for most people in the vaults, so Iím thinking this is something they would avoid if at all possible.

    I think pigs are much more likely to be the default approach here, since theyíre probably the most common livestock after chickens. You canít really run cows underground, but hogs and chickens will do much better.

    Also, if this hasnít been mentioned before, catfish are easily farmed and another good way to handle certain types of waste.
    Actually if this is a widespread thing, might the city already have an otyugh? It might be on par with living near train tracks - sure, it could be dangerous if you jump on the tracks, but anyone who lives nearby knows not to do that.

    Also I checked d20srd and Pathfinder and Iím still not finding a climb speed for the garden-variety otyugh (variants yes, garden variety no) so a 20 ft high cliff (for 15 foot reach with tentacles) around the vault midden pit sounds like it should work?

    No objection to pigs. Catfish sound doable; if weíre doing reservoirs or have an interior spring we could build a tank by the fields; I doubt whatever we end up growing will care about any fish droppings in the water. I guess the next big questions are how much waste does the city produce in a day, and how much do the various creatures eat?

    EDIT: Side note, Quertus, you mentioned turning bodies into three types of undead? I found the meat puppet on the Pathfinder site for the Ďmeatí portion of the trio.

    EDIT AGAIN: Akaname look unworkable from a vault sanitation perspective (the spider climb, small size, and greater intelligence would make them harder to contain if hostile, plus they are explicitly mentioned to attack humans if startled and avoid humans the rest of the time so probably not interested in making friends if not hostile) - but I will bring them up for the sake of completeness and in case they should show up in a failed vault somewhere else.
    Last edited by Kareeah_Indaga; 2021-03-09 at 05:28 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #254
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
    Actually if this is a widespread thing, might the city already have an otyugh?
    This particular cityóprobably not, since this is in a mountain valley, and Iím thinking the soil is too rocky to easily dig out sewers or catacombs beneath the ground.

    As for climb speed, I didnít see one either, but I assume it could still make a reasonable climb check with an 18 Strength.

    Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
    Side note, Quertus, you mentioned turning bodies into three types of undead?
    Not sure if youíve seen this thread, but we did chase down that reference.

  15. - Top - End - #255
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Jun 2014

    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    As for climb speed, I didnít see one either, but I assume it could still make a reasonable climb check with an 18 Strength.
    Okay buuuut...

    A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical surface cannot be climbed.
    We admittedly are underground, so itís going to be a room or at least room-like, but put the corners far enough away that it canít use them for the -5 DC and make the entrance too small for a Large creature as mentioned, and we should be reasonably secure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Not sure if youíve seen this thread, but we did chase down that reference.
    I had not. Good to know you found it!

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