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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post


    Can you elaborate on this? Do you mean Temporal Stasis, or something else?
    Yes, temporal stasis. But research a weaker one, one that has limits to be the stated max of 6th lvl.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    so we need a sustained output of either 1,200 or 2,100 gp/day.

    20,000 * (((10+4)/2)/7) = 20,000 gp/day. Even if only half of them are of working age, and you can only capture half of their output, you're still ahead by either 3,800 or 2,900 gp/day. And that's assuming none of them have Skill Focus, a suitable Masterwork Tool, and/or an ability modifier of +1 or better (most of them should have at least one of the above, really).
    So, ½ population working, only ½ of the time (off weekends, holidays, sick days, etc), "food by outsider" consumes 21/29 of the minimal baseline productivity of your civilization.

    Possible, but painful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whyareall View Post
    Okay but civilians don't generate currency out of thin air, and even if you're nationalising everyone's income to pay for expensive material components with which to cast spells, the components aren't being generated out of thin air either (or transmuted from the currency), and unless the components are plants or some other potentially renewable resource it doesn't matter how much money you have if your city physically runs out of and cannot acquire more material components
    I was kinda picturing baking the Angel/Dragon/Modron/whatever some pies, building sculptures of good deeds, whatever combination of "crafts + materials + summoned being's interests" the town could manage.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    So, ½ population working, only ½ of the time (off weekends, holidays, sick days, etc), "food by outsider" consumes 21/29 of the minimal baseline productivity of your civilization.
    "Ahead by" is net, not gross. Half of the folks doing useful work towards this is 10k per day. Capturing half of that for the purpose is 5k per day. The high end cost is 2,100 gp/day. So that's 21/50 of your productivity, assuming only 25% efficiency with very non-optimized skill checks.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    So, Quertus, would you be willing to repost those statements from the Fort saves thread in this one?

    Because those are both great segues into some other thoughts I had.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    If all else fails, there's always human sacrifice.

    One sacrifice can easily get you enough dark craft GP to craft Everlasting Rations. No exotic and difficult-to-obtain materials required.

    If people are going to be fighting over scarce resources anyway, they might as well make efficient use of captured enemies.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    In the scenario as I’ve conceived it, the nearby cave system will be extensive laterally, but not vertically, and no feasible connection with any under-realms far below.


    There certainly won’t be any way for trade to help with the immediate crisis—as noted previously, in this scenario the town is secluded and essentially cut off from other communities. And since the crisis is equal or worse everywhere else, there’s effectively no trade to speak of, with hoarding and panic pricing making non-local items effectively unavailable.

    For some spell components and other rare essentials, it’s possible that there could be attempts by a few mid-level wizards to teleport out and try to find them elsewhere…but all the other mid-level wizards in the world will have that same idea, so it may be a bit of a feeding frenzy beyond the borders of the valley.

    In fact, it may be an essential aspect of preparation to organize some of the wizards to prevent exactly that sort of resource depletion from their own community. Rather than going out and taking from elsewhere, they may be needed just to protect whatever the town has on hand.?
    I get that. But how many years could it take for 12th level casters to reestablish ties with the outside world. 5? 10? 20? 50? 100? There’s gonna be someone you can trade with in a lot less than 1000 years. There should be a tunnel to the underdark or a ring gate to the merfolk kingdom somewhere. Unless your scenario is assuming that there is something unique about your 20,000 person valley and everyone else died, including the people living near very high level casters who should be able to solo this issue. Like, if this is Faerun, Szass Tam is absolutely still animate and running a kingdom. Virtually every 15+ level caster is still going to be alive for decades, if not centuries. Most of them will have a large crew of living or unliving things with them. Some will likely be looking for you.

    And if you tunnel to a metropolis 20 years after the disaster, there are really 2 likely alternatives. Either it is a surviving settlement you could trade with. Or it’s a ruin you could loot. Win-Win.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2021-02-11 at 04:17 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Gnaeus
    But how many years could it take for 12th level casters to reestablish ties with the outside world. 5? 10? 20? 50? 100? There’s gonna be someone you can trade with in a lot less than 1000 years.
    Good point. Depending on the survival approach that’s taken, possibly. I’ve been assuming this is a fairly secluded region, but 12th-level casters do have some options on their end.

    This ties into something else I’ve been considering, which is how many population centers will survive the initial catastrophe, how distant they are from each other, how they could reestablish some form of communication, and whether any kind of contact would be feasible.

    Originally Posted by Gnaeus
    And if you tunnel to a metropolis 20 years after the disaster, there are really 2 likely alternatives. Either it is a surviving settlement you could trade with. Or it’s a ruin you could loot.
    Or taken over by something horrendous, something not so easily defeated. There are a lot of other potential outcomes here.

    Originally Posted by Gnaeus
    There should be a tunnel to the underdark….
    Well, as mentioned, I’ve been envisioning this particular community with zero access to the Underdark, both to enforce their isolation for this scenario, but also for their own safety as much as anything.

    As for their deliberately seeking out the Underdark, that seems unlikely. If anyone has even heard of something like the “under-realm,” it’ll be through stories of monsters and horrors in a savage and forever lightless world, and that’s not something anyone wants to make contact with.

    And for good reason, because I can’t see the drow viewing a cave full of refugees as anything but easy pickings. If anything, the more advanced races of the Underdark may take advantage of the global catastrophe to expand their presence on the surface, which will be one more factor for any surface survivors to contend with.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    And for good reason, because I can’t see the drow viewing a cave full of refugees as anything but easy pickings. If anything, the more advanced races of the Underdark may take advantage of the global catastrophe to expand their presence on the surface, which will be one more factor for any surface survivors to contend with.
    I agree. Although they might trade for slaves. And if it’s particularly remote, the underdark does have trading cities. I don’t find it terrifically unlikely that a heavily armed human party might show up every 5 years to trade for some components that are hard to access on the surface. Or one of the countless drow houses makes a deal to increase their personal power. Or some intermediate party makes it happen. Dwarves dislike duergar but are also known to trade with them, for example. 1000 years is a long time for a valley-dwarf outpost-duergar-drow trade route to emerge.

    Honestly, the more I think about it, the less concerned about 1000 years of survival I would be. While human empires would collapse, there are plenty of 3.5 races which would thrive. Frost giants. Ice trolls. Undead. Underdark races. Urskan. Glacier dwarves. Neanderthals. There are lots of cold adapted races which would move into expansion mode quickly. I would anticipate that by a century after winter, your area is going to either be a part of a civilization, or under constant threat of being overrun. And if they have access to pre winter maps, they will again be headed directly to your valley to scavenge.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Gnaeus
    I don’t find it terrifically unlikely that a heavily armed human party might show up every 5 years to trade for some components that are hard to access on the surface.
    This is something I was wondering: how many normal human communities have trading relationships with the drow?

    I would think very few. Apart from the dwarf-duergar trade you mentioned, are there any references to surface races trading frequently with the Underdark, either in the Realms or in other settings? My impression of the Realms is that the drow are a hidden threat who occasionally appear to wreak havoc, but I don’t know if there are exceptions to this.

    Originally Posted by Gnaeus
    While human empires would collapse, there are plenty of 3.5 races which would thrive. Frost giants. Ice trolls. Undead. Underdark races. Urskan. Glacier dwarves. Neanderthals.
    Not to mention uldra and snow elves. I could see a new “cold war” (so to speak) developing among these races on the surface, while the last remnants of the previously dominant races huddle in tiny, hidden refuges.

    Originally Posted by Raven777
    Just mentioning that a one off campaign setting based on this premise, and several isolated city-states implementing the various different proposed solutions, would be hella cool.
    Glad you like the concept, and I could certainly see this developing into a campaign setting. Just to round out your summary a little more:

    Silent Lornia, its temples filled with the mute vigil of petrified citizens under the timeless stewardship of the risen dead.

    Resolute Karst, parlaying its newborns against supplies with slavers from the dark under.

    Militant Ulver, forcing rings that enforce both sustenance and obedience upon every citizen's finger.

    Fallen Qinas, it's mountain cave sanctuaries overtaken by magical crops under the violet glow of artificial suns.

    Devout Osria, blessed by the jealous gods of winter to endure the elements while all other faiths are brought low.


    Ensorcelled Habaddan, a vast chamber of timeless sleep, with strange guardians whose movements are too slow to be seen.

    Glittering Kasu'ali, trading gems hewn from the caverns for kelp and clams through a mysterious passage to a faraway sea.

    The Swarm, a ragtag fleet of airships traversing the frozen wastelands, with 10,238 survivors searching for a home called Haven.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    So, Quertus, would you be willing to repost those statements from the Fort saves thread in this one?

    Because those are both great segues into some other thoughts I had.
    Sure. (I happen to have noticed "quickly" this time rather than days later - feel free to quote me if you like if it comes up again)

    So, in the child thread about maximizing Fort saves, I said…
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    …there are 12th level casters at the *start* of the scenario. The depetrification is scheduled for T + 1,000 years (plus a few weeks) from that point.

    The level and assortment of casters available at that moment is (or *should* be) one of the unknowns, one of the variables of that thought experiment.

    Also, alchemical solutions that can be administered immediately before the petrification process should function, IMO. In that vein, my Necropolis - not needing such things - will happily foster good will by providing as much as they can (if, unlike myself, any Playgrounders make their Knowledge roll, and come up with alchemical items that give Fort bonuses).

    In short, my "city that was already mostly undead", where the 12th level casters were probably liches (and/or the good Elf variant) would attempt to establish / retain contact between the cities, and offer to help their undead-impaired relatives through this difficult time. And, not hindered by cold, could facilitate trade, and freely provide what knowledge they have of the current state of the world. (As immortals, they take a really long view on "PR". Also, living beings are kinda their "larval stage" before they become the beautiful butterflies of undeath )

    To which I'll add that my Necropolitans will definitely be raiding all the great libraries before some illiterate morons in future generations come through and burn all the books for warmth!

    Also, they will offer to preserve (grant the gift of undeath to) worthy experts of unnecessary skills (gardeners, sushi chefs, ox cart racers, you name it) to try to facilitate the continuation / revival of culture. OK, more likely, their preferred solution would be to kindly request that the "city of petrification" be so kind as to take in some extra citizens for "when the time is right". Gifting them with undeath would be their fallback option.

    Seeds will, if possible, be stored in quintessence; otherwise, on petrified livestock (and kindly request that the "petrification city" accept their gift of seeds from species from around the world, and do likewise)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    I get that. But how many years could it take for 12th level casters to reestablish ties with the outside world. 5? 10? 20? 50? 100? There’s gonna be someone you can trade with in a lot less than 1000 years.
    Between Teleport and Sending? Contact might never be *lost*.

    That's certainly the plan for my Necropolis.

    That, and lots of walking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Good point. Depending on the survival approach that’s taken, possibly. I’ve been assuming this is a fairly secluded region, but 12th-level casters do have some options on their end.

    This ties into something else I’ve been considering, which is how many population centers will survive the initial catastrophe, how distant they are from each other, how they could reestablish some form of communication, and whether any kind of contact would be feasible.
    I didn't realize that "survive the initial catastrophe" was a major concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    This is something I was wondering: how many normal human communities have trading relationships with the drow?

    I would think very few. My impression of the Realms is that the drow are a hidden threat who occasionally appear to wreak havoc, but I don’t know if there are exceptions to this.
    Few, but not none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Silent Lornia, its temples filled with the mute vigil of petrified citizens under the timeless stewardship of the risen dead.

    Resolute Karst, parlaying its newborns against supplies with slavers from the dark under.

    Militant Ulver, forcing rings that enforce both sustenance and obedience upon every citizen's finger.

    Fallen Qinas, it's mountain cave sanctuaries overtaken by magical crops under the violet glow of artificial suns.

    Devout Osria, blessed by the jealous gods of winter to endure the elements while all other faiths are brought low.


    Ensorcelled Habaddan, a vast chamber of timeless sleep, with strange guardians whose movements are too slow to be seen.

    Glittering Kasu'ali, trading gems hewn from the caverns for kelp and clams through a mysterious passage to a faraway sea.

    The Swarm, a ragtag fleet of airships traversing the frozen wastelands, with 10,238 survivors searching for a home called Haven.
    Glad you included The Swarm. Ulver sounds like my 1st 3e post-apocalyptic city. No necropolis or were-Furries?

    (EDIT: OK, the were-Furries could *easily* result in Qinas…)
    Last edited by Quertus; 2021-02-11 at 07:58 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I did overlook that, and while I probably would have included it in things that are right out, this is an intriguing approach.

    However, I’d say the odds of any given city having a Planar Shepherd druid are extremely low, and even lower for one that happens to specialize in time. But it’s certainly an interesting idea.

    Also, please note the scenario is for a thousand-year winter, rather than ten thousand years, so in your example the Shepherd would need to stand watch for only 25 days.
    Other option would be an Incantatrix with Persistent Spell "Planar Bubble".
    Spellcraft DC: 18 + 3x(7+6)= 57

    Planar Bubble is 7th lvl and thus requires the Incantatrix to be at least lvl13.
    Spellcraft should have 16 ranks by now. INT 27 (18 + 3 lvlUp + 6 item) provides a +8 modifier

    We need a Cleric with the 2nd lvl spells Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar (assuming clvl 12)

    Spellcraft roll: take 10 + 16 + 8 + 12 + 12 = 58

    Note the small size of the bubble. The Incantatrix could cast as many as she has 7th lvl slots per day. But would still only be enough space for VIPs.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Hmm. Lets see if we can minimize the dependence on casters.

    Step 1: All capable casters spend a day casting bestow curse on commoners to inflict something like chicken infested. That buys us some time and starts the down filled chicken leather coat industry.

    Step 2: All capable casters spend a day in scry & die style teleport raids to capture a breeding population of trolls. Drain the trolls to Str 2 so mid-level commoners can grapple & subdue. Feed chickens to the troll-farms for multiplied meat, better leather, and troll fat for burning/cooking.

    Step 3: The casters spend the next day using the xp from the raids making permanent walls of fire. The ones who can't do flooding prevention & general construction. Someone makes a bestow curse spell trap that inflicts chicken infested.

    Step 4: The casters sod off and go have a party or something. Commoners can handle the troll farms from here on out, build hot houses by the walls of fire for veggiies, and engage in chicken related entertainment.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    Seeds will, if possible, be stored in quintessence; otherwise, on petrified livestock (and kindly request that the "petrification city" accept their gift of seeds from species from around the world, and do likewise)….
    Sounds like you’re going full Svalbard on seed preservation; good thinking there. Druids will approve.

    But how are you storing seeds on petrified livestock? All I can think of is an oversized chia pet.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    Between Teleport and Sending? Contact might never be *lost*.
    ...maybe. It’ll be a madhouse and a feeding frenzy even before the sky-mountain hits, and Sending requires a recipient you’re familiar with. By definition, not everyone is going to make it, so that’ll be fewer and fewer potential recipients.

    Teleport offers the prospect of creating new contacts for Sending, but every teleport is also a risk of loss, either to teleport error or the general madhouse and feeding frenzy. Everyone will have their own priorities, but some communities may want to be strategic with their few high-level casters, preferring to keep them close as opposed to risking them out in the world. The benefits of having a high-level caster safe in your caves may outweigh the benefits of teleporting into an uncertain situation hundreds of miles away.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    I didn't realize that "survive the initial catastrophe" was a major concern.
    For most people in most communities, that’s their only concern, and rightly so. In this scenario as I envision it, the vast majority of settlements will be destabilized and wiped out.

    Note that I’m using “initial catastrophe” as shorthand for the impact itself (debris and megatsunamis) plus the first snows, sulfuric acid rain, crop failures and broad-scale societal collapse. That’s just the first few months.

    Also note that the sulfuric acid rain will cause a rapid acidification in the upper layers of the global ocean, which will likely cause a mass dieoff of merfolk and other undersea species.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    No necropolis or were-Furries?
    I thought the very first one referred to the necropolis approach.

    As for were-walruses or whatever, that seemed a little iffy. Ordinary people aren’t likely to want an infection that turns them into ravening beasts. Whether it actually does is beside the point; it’s the optics of the whole lycanthropy situation.

    However, I would expect that if there are any were-polar bears already present in the environment, they would join the scrimmage for control of the wintry wastes by all the newly prominent cold factions.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Not quite sure what you mean here. Hardly anyone in the town will have a background in mining,
    They don't have to have the background at first. Retraining is a thing, both in Pathfinder and 3.5 (found in the PHB II). Hold classes from the few that do; most medieval-like communities will have a year or two of food stored up, just as a necessity of how the harvest cycle works. Even a single skill point in Profession(Miner) allows making the checks, and it's taking 10 that does most the production for commoner-1's. Four ranks (or in Pathfinder, 1 rank and the +3 class skill bonus) is just 2/7ths of the production at 1st taking ten. Then start mining and refining, so you'll be able to pay off the outsiders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    and if they’re petrified or otherwise unavailable, there won’t be a workforce per se. But I may not be grokking your broader point.
    Not every community is going to implement all plans at once: Among other things, they're largely mutually contradictory. The guys paying extraplanar allies to produce food for everyone are NOT the guys petrifying everyone and setting a few guardians to watch over them and wake them when the world is warm again, which are in turn NOT the guys making a few Tromp L'Oeils of creatures that can cast Create Food and Water at-will to feed everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    But how are you storing seeds on petrified livestock? All I can think of is an oversized chia pet.
    Flesh to stone petrifies the gear as well. Load up a bunch of sorted & labeled seeds on a mule in a pack saddle, petrify the mule, and you petrify the seeds, too. 1,000 years later, flesh to stone the mule to restore it (or kill it, whatever, the mule isn't the point), and you restore the seeds as well.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2021-02-12 at 07:24 AM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Sounds like you’re going full Svalbard on seed preservation; good thinking there. Druids will approve.
    Full what now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    But how are you storing seeds on petrified livestock? All I can think of is an oversized chia pet.
    Humans get petrified with their clothes; livestock get petrified with tied-on baskets.

    At long last, a use for Craft(Underwater Basket Weaving)! Because, **** it Jim, we're saving the whales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    ...maybe. It’ll be a madhouse and a feeding frenzy even before the sky-mountain hits, and Sending requires a recipient you’re familiar with. By definition, not everyone is going to make it, so that’ll be fewer and fewer potential recipients.
    Not every elven Lich lives at the necropolis. And making new contracts among the cycle that is living beings is an advantage of traveling to the cities in person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Teleport offers the prospect of creating new contacts for Sending, but every teleport is also a risk of loss, either to teleport error or the general madhouse and feeding frenzy.
    Uh, Lich. Teleport inside a lava bath, and 1d10 days later, I'm back, baby!

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Everyone will have their own priorities, but some communities may want to be strategic with their few high-level casters, preferring to keep them close as opposed to risking them out in the world.
    Oh, we will encourage that others keep their power close at hand… while providing information regarding the safety of areas, so that low level adventurers can level up. That's how we get suitable new recruits, after all.

    We will gladly shoulder the burden of "risk" to ensure the survival of humanity. Not that there's really much risk to our Liches, and *most* of our powerhouses are back home, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    The benefits of having a high-level caster safe in your caves may outweigh the benefits of teleporting into an uncertain situation hundreds of miles away.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    For most people in most communities, that’s their only concern, and rightly so. In this scenario as I envision it, the vast majority of settlements will be destabilized and wiped out.

    Note that I’m using “initial catastrophe” as shorthand for the impact itself (debris and megatsunamis)
    This will be important to know..

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    plus the first snows, sulfuric acid rain, crop failures and broad-scale societal collapse. That’s just the first few months.
    Shrug. There "average" generated D&D town should - if possessed with even a drop of Playgrounder know-how - find a way to shrug such inconveniences off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Also note that the sulfuric acid rain will cause a rapid acidification in the upper layers of the global ocean, which will likely cause a mass dieoff of merfolk and other undersea species.
    Craft Underwater Basket Weaving!

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I thought the very first one referred to the necropolis approach.
    Eh, no. They *went* undead *in response* (but mostly went statue). The point of the necropolis was that it was *already* an undead-centric city before news of the apocalypse from the sky.

    My initial post was intentionally less human-centric, trying to ask, "what would the *world* do?".

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    As for were-walruses or whatever, that seemed a little iffy. Ordinary people aren’t likely to want an infection that turns them into ravening beasts. Whether it actually does is beside the point; it’s the optics of the whole lycanthropy situation.
    Your call - accept the Bite of Change, or be meat for those who do (playing up that fear).

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    However, I would expect that if there are any were-polar bears already present in the environment, they would join the scrimmage for control of the wintry wastes by all the newly prominent cold factions.
    The threat of such is one of the reasons to get preemptively infected be a "nice" lycanthrope.

    I'm thinking… Planar Binding / Ally for a… can we get a Paragon Celestial Werefox of Legend?

    Of course, I'm no Druid - I have no idea what critter would have the correct temperament for the society that I want - or what size they are. For all I know, Qinas may be a *halfling* city.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Full what now?
    It's probably a reference to the seed vault on Svalbard.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    As far as trading with drow, in Faerun at least see skulkport under waterdeep. In pathfinder they have ties in Riddleport iirc. Pathfinder has a few other underdark societies of various nastiness, snake folk come to mind immediately. They may trade merely as a stopgap to getting information and trying to use surface races. Pathfinder also has a nation of Rakshashas, and mage academies run by fiends so there are a lot more angles there. Asmodaeus is a highly openly venerated diety in many Lawful areas, so access to fiends or planar hopping for some is a great bargain, just sign here to be warm and safe under the guard of our death knights.

    Also canonically this has happened before in Golarion, and the Drow came about because of it, they are well prepared. Gift them some surface elves and they might teach you things. In that case it killed or sent into sleep all the great runelords so it was a massive magnitude worse, and it lasted 10k tears? Resources exist of you look for them. Use that divination magic.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    This is something I was wondering: how many normal human communities have trading relationships with the drow?

    I would think very few. Apart from the dwarf-duergar trade you mentioned, are there any references to surface races trading frequently with the Underdark, either in the Realms or in other settings? My impression of the Realms is that the drow are a hidden threat who occasionally appear to wreak havoc, but I don’t know if there are exceptions to this. .
    There are definitely precedents. For example, the classic first adventure path (scourge of the slave lords/against the giants/vault of the drow) begins with covert drow support of a human government (the slave lords) in exchange for a steady supply of slaves.

    Drow are overwhelmingly evil and don’t like elves. But their religion is divided. Their rule is strongly divided. They won’t respect, trust or like you. But that doesn’t mean that house X, under constant threat from houses Y and Z, wouldn’t jump at the chance to get fresh slaves or other trade goods on beneficial terms if that would help them get ahead. Or that any drow merchant, faced with a stranger in their shop with a bag of goods they want asking for a pallet of common reagents or foodstuffs, isn’t going to be greedy enough not to look too carefully at what exactly is generating that transmutation or illusion aura on the guy offering them money as long as it isn’t touching the goods. “Obviously that guy was a drow. I mean he looked like a drow. How was I to know” or “he said he was a slave for house Z. He had a slave collar and everything. What am I, the fake slave police?” They’re also very long lived, and just because they have no scruples about betraying an ally that doesn’t mean they are above maintaining a deal that works in their favor for several hundred years. Chaotic in the sense of “I break the law when it benefits me” not “I act irrationally”.

    Actually, it’s even better than that. The population of Menzoberranzan is listed as: Free:
    Drow 98%
    Human 1%
    Orc 1%
    Slaves:
    Goblin 17%
    Grimlock 17%
    Kobold 15%
    Orc 13%
    Quaggoth 9%
    Bugbear 7%
    Human 7%
    Ogre 4%
    Svirfneblin 4%
    Minotaur 3%
    Troll 2%
    Gloaming 1%
    Tiefling 1%.

    COMMERCE
    IMPORTS
    surface produce[5], slaves
    EXPORTS
    poisons, mushrooms, riding lizards, slaves, spell scrolls, wine, water[3]

    So 1% of the free inhabitants are human. And about 1 in 15 slaves. Show up once every couple years with a bag of goods and a cover story, why would anyone know or care who you are? Their markets are obviously geared towards accepting surface stuff and slaves in exchange for magic stuff. Perfect.

    A quick scan of other locations in the upperdark show several other locations with free human minorities. And a couple more I think you could fake pretty easily with a hat of disguise and a working knowledge of Orcish or Goblin.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2021-02-12 at 01:06 PM.

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    Originally Posted by Quertus
    Full what now?
    Originally Posted by Batcathat
    It's probably a reference to the seed vault on Svalbard.
    It is indeed.

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    Shrug. There "average" generated D&D town should - if possessed with even a drop of Playgrounder know-how - find a way to shrug such inconveniences off.
    Safe to say we’re assuming different levels of optimization for the society as a whole.

    I’m assuming this is a standard game setting, with the specific communities we’re discussing here being the rare exceptions in terms of successful survival strategies.

    Originally Posted by Efrate
    Pathfinder has a few other underdark societies of various nastiness, snake folk come to mind immediately.
    Do you mean serpentfolk? Do you happen to know where this is fleshed out? I don’t know much about the Golarion version of the Underdark.

    Originally Posted by Efrate
    As far as trading with drow, in Faerun at least see skulkport under waterdeep.
    Originally Posted by Gnaeus
    There are definitely precedents. For example, the classic first adventure path (scourge of the slave lords/against the giants/vault of the drow) begins with covert drow support of a human government (the slave lords) in exchange for a steady supply of slaves.
    It does look like there are some examples, although I have a feeling these are the exceptions to the rule.

    The question is what could a caveful of refugees offer that the drow would want, but want just enough to trade for it, rather than simply attacking and carrying off the survivors and their possessions wholesale?

    If a community of refugees makes contact with the drow, they won’t have the resources of a surface kingdom to back them up, which is usually the detente that keeps drow from conquering regions of the surface wholesale. In this situation, it’ll just be the refugees, whereas the drow will have at least a city’s worth of soldiers and casters to bring to bear.

    So the drow would have a strong if not overwhelming advantage, and I’m not sure what the refugees have to offer that the drow can’t get for themselves. If I were responsible for the safety of a large number of survivors—who may or may not be the last people in the world—dealing with the drow might seem like far more risk than it’s worth.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    It does look like there are some examples, although I have a feeling these are the exceptions to the rule.

    The question is what could a caveful of refugees offer that the drow would want, but want just enough to trade for it, rather than simply attacking and carrying off the survivors and their possessions wholesale?

    If a community of refugees makes contact with the drow, they won’t have the resources of a surface kingdom to back them up, which is usually the detente that keeps drow from conquering regions of the surface wholesale. In this situation, it’ll just be the refugees, whereas the drow will have at least a city’s worth of soldiers and casters to bring to bear.

    So the drow would have a strong if not overwhelming advantage, and I’m not sure what the refugees have to offer that the drow can’t get for themselves. If I were responsible for the safety of a large number of survivors—who may or may not be the last people in the world—dealing with the drow might seem like far more risk than it’s worth.
    You don’t show up with a cave full of refugees. You show up with a team of adventurers with some goods in a portable hole or some peons in chains. Yeah, if you lead your population down a hole you are boned. So don’t do that. They could kill your adventurers. Like they could kill any other merchants in the underdark. But as long as you can demonstrate that it’s in their interests to trade on favorable terms to them for the next 200 years rather than fight some tough humans for a one time haul, they have no reason to. Or you walk into one of their big cities like one more merchant wagon, pay the guards their normal bribes. Sell your ore. Buy your eyes of newt and gtfo. Or sit on a trade corridor and wait for a caravan to come by. A drow trading party isn’t likely to pick a risky fight over guaranteed profits.

    Really, all you the surface dweller care about is occasionally replenishing whatever material components you can’t gather in your valley. The petroleum equivalent to keep your magic industry running.

    And if you are negotiating with some minor drow house, even if they have superior individual troops, attacking a town of 20,000 people some distance from their territory runs some pretty significant risks, like losing or being backstabbed while their military is away. The drow HAVE big cities. But they also have lots of little enclaves with local greedy rulers who would have a rough time with 2000 humans, let alone 20,000 with non-trivial caster muscle.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2021-02-12 at 03:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Serpentfolk are fleshed out in some AP pathfinder chronicles fluff pieces, also in at least one book covering the underground which I am blanking on. The Rakshasha nation has a thriving slave trade and would have no issues with dealing with drow. Regardless, some alter self following some intell gathering via knowledge or divinations can ease you into trading with drow. You have resources of your ores and gems, or whatever you have planar bound. Some angel feathers or something might be highly valuable. Golarion also have several major spy networks that can get you information.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Gnaeus
    You don’t show up with a cave full of refugees.

    …Really, all you the surface dweller care about is occasionally replenishing whatever material components you can’t gather in your valley.
    If there’s a pre-existing relationship between some of the drow and some in the city, I can see that continuing post-crisis, and possibly being the edge that allows one community to survive where others perish.

    But if the survivors of a community are trying to establish relations with the drow, post-surface-collapse, that could be more problematic. In that situation there really won’t be much that the survivors can do.

    Originally Posted by Efrate
    Serpentfolk are fleshed out in some AP pathfinder chronicles fluff pieces, also in at least one book covering the underground which I am blanking on.
    Thanks, that’s probably Into the Darklands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    If there’s a pre-existing relationship between some of the drow and some in the city, I can see that continuing post-crisis, and possibly being the edge that allows one community to survive where others perish.

    But if the survivors of a community are trying to establish relations with the drow, post-surface-collapse, that could be more problematic. In that situation there really won’t be much that the survivors can do.
    There's *plenty* that the survivors could do. But, really, selling your criminals / captured enemies into slavery - other than striking some real-world nerves - *could* work well, or *could* end badly. It just all depends on how it's handled. And what's going on with the Drow you're trying to trade with.

    It does tend to ensure that the Drow are in the loop, information-wise, making their conquest of the surface that much more likely.

    Wait a minute… Drow invasion forces in an Arctic environment? This sounds familiar. I think I've already got a party spec'd to deal with this.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    [I]
    But if the survivors of a community are trying to establish relations with the drow, post-surface-collapse, that could be more problematic. In that situation there really won’t be much that the survivors can do.
    Well it’s your world. Just put it up in the OP in the list of stuff that doesn’t work as it does in most D&D worlds like no planar travel. I could walk through drow city by drow city and demonstrate their human populations or their notes describing trade with the surface world. But if you say it doesn’t it’s just one more way winter world differs from published settings.

    I actually see very little risk. I mean by that the drow undoubtedly already have maps of the surface world. The groups which might reasonably launch an invasion know where the surface world is, and where your valley is. “These guys in this valley sell us trade goods or ore or slaves occasionally” isn’t going to make you an easier target for conquest. Might in fact put you lower on the list compared with human settlements that aren’t playing well with the nearest drow settlements. Not because they would feel any particular loyalty or sympathy, as much as that you don’t slaughter the cow that’s giving you milk when you have your pick of cows who aren’t.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2021-02-12 at 04:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Gnaeus
    I could walk through drow city by drow city and demonstrate their human populations or their notes describing trade with the surface world.
    No need to go through them all, but do you have a source you’re referencing?

    I’m basing my assumptions on my general sense of the drow from playing various campaigns and looking through sourcebooks—but if there’s more information I haven’t seen, I don’t mind incorporating it.

    As for the perception of risk—both in and out of setting—that will vary a lot. “Never but never trust a drow” has been ingrained in me for many years, but that may be because all of my in-game experiences with drow have been uniformly negative.

    Starting with the guy who wanted to play a “not-so-secretly evil” drow in a party of otherwise good characters, “because evil characters in the party make it more interesting.” That didn’t end well.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    I assume no psions? Because a Quintessence suit to live out a few millenia or two in stasis is relatively low level there
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malphegor View Post
    I assume no psions? Because a Quintessence suit to live out a few millenia or two in stasis is relatively low level there
    That'd require a LOT of quintessence, depending on the time scale involved there might not be enough time to coat everyone in the city without resorting to means of artificially restoring power points. A 12th-level Psion with an Intelligence of 22 has 162 power points per day, or enough to create 23 ounces of Quintessence per day. Being very generous and saying it takes about 20 ounces to submerge an adult human male (assuming Quintessence can cover a square foot, avg. human surface volume is 1.9 square meters or very roughly 20 square feet), a psion can only realistically freeze about one person per day in Quintessence. A 12th-level generalist wizard with 22 Int can convert 7 people per day into stone using Flesh to Stone. Quintessence is very useful as a substance, but is probably not the most efficient way of putting people into stasis.
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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    No need to go through them all, but do you have a source you’re referencing?

    I’m basing my assumptions on my general sense of the drow from playing various campaigns and looking through sourcebooks—but if there’s more information I haven’t seen, I don’t mind incorporating it.

    As for the perception of risk—both in and out of setting—that will vary a lot. “Never but never trust a drow” has been ingrained in me for many years, but that may be because all of my in-game experiences with drow have been uniformly negative.

    Starting with the guy who wanted to play a “not-so-secretly evil” drow in a party of otherwise good characters, “because evil characters in the party make it more interesting.” That didn’t end well.
    I’m referencing the Forgotten Realms wiki. It references the forgotten realms campaign supplement for population data, and a number of other supplements and novels, mostly Drizzt’s guide to the underdark, for discussion of trade.

    And nowhere have I suggested that you should trust the drow. Or give them advantages over you. They don’t trust you. Don’t like you. Have no moral qualms about betraying you. But they will trade with you when that is an easier way to get an advantage than murdering you. They almost certainly hate you less (unless you are an elf) than they hate the Drow the next cavern over. Some Drow are likely in a position to begin wars of conquest. This inevitably means other Drow are now incentivized to sabotage wars of conquest. Like by selling you stuff, making money off you while they make you a harder target.

    If your casters don’t have components to make items, you are screwed. Screwed by invading Drow. Screwed by armies of undead from Thay. Screwed by frost giants or white dragons leading hordes of arctic kobolds. Screwed by cold Fey and every other monster in the frostburn book.

    There’s not really any good rules source I have seen that tells you how much of the costs of item creation and other spellcasting are things you can make or mine in a cave or gather from local Ice fauna versus stuff that’s normally assumed to just come through the trade network. Maybe the stuff to make everfull lockers is all locally available precious metals but the stuff you need for resetting magical traps requires something you can’t get to. But assuming that most (or at least some required bottleneck) material/crafting components aren’t things you can get or get substitutes for locally with available magics, you need a trading partner that can trigger those DMG availability guidelines. You’d probably much rather engage with something like aquatic elves or merfolk who live deep enough as to have reduced environmental impacts. But if you can’t manage that, Drow are way better than having your crafters idle for 980 years.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2021-02-12 at 06:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Originally Posted by Gnaeus
    I’m referencing the Forgotten Realms wiki. It references the forgotten realms campaign supplement for population data, and a number of other supplements and novels, mostly Drizzt’s guide to the underdark, for discussion of trade.
    As it happens, I was just looking through the 2E Drizzt’s Guide for mentions of trade. There’s abundant trade among the various races and factions native to the Underdark, but only one reference to drow trading with surface folk:

    “Eryndlyn’s far-ranging merchants periodically emerge under darkness to trade with unscrupulous merchants along the Sword Coast.” (First sentence on p. 49.)

    So, clandestine trade in a few places is what it sounds like.



    Also, I’ve been meaning to bring in these pertinent quotes from a related thread:

    Originally Posted by Quertus
    The level and assortment of casters available at that moment is (or *should* be) one of the unknowns, one of the variables of that thought experiment.
    Originally Posted by Quertus
    In that vein, my Necropolis - not needing such things - will happily foster good will by providing as much as they can….
    The first quote refers to how many casters will be on hand when it comes time to de-petrify those refugees who have chosen to wait out the centuries in statue form. More generally, it’s worth asking how magical knowledge will be retained in each of the survivors’ enclaves.

    The second quote brings up another point, which is that Quertus specified his necropolis predated the catastrophe. It seems likely that those communities with some pre-existing, unconventional arrangement will have an edge in surviving the catastrophe and long winter--either trade contacts with drow, or a gate to a deep merfolk city, or even an unusual tolerance for werebears and their kin.

    Also, Quertus pointed out that his elf-liches will be preemptively raiding magical libraries to preserve lore in his own enclave, which of course is motivated entirely by altruism. Rocket Raccoon is using his left eye here.

    But it occurred to me that this would make a great storyline for an outside group:

    Liches are hoarding magical knowledge—the very same knowledge that could make the difference between survival and extinction. A hardy group of adventurers is tasked with tracking the liches to their hidden lair and reclaiming the stolen lore!

    That’s a whole AP chapter right there.

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    Default Re: Surviving A Thousand-Year Winter

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    “Never but never trust a drow”
    Good advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    The first quote refers to how many casters will be on hand when it comes time to de-petrify those refugees who have chosen to wait out the centuries in statue form. More generally, it’s worth asking how magical knowledge will be retained in each of the survivors’ enclaves.
    Well, if the gods survive (or "clerics of an idea" are a thing, *and* continue functioning without the gods), divine magic is fine. Psionics should probably be fine. Sorcerers are *probably* fine (in fact, they'll likely become more common, as you've got a bunch of randy humans and Dragons with nothing better to do with their time than each other). It's only Wizards who really care - and I expect that "Eschew Materials" will become a *very* popular feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    The second quote brings up another point, which is that Quertus specified his necropolis predated the catastrophe. It seems likely that those communities with some pre-existing, unconventional arrangement will have an edge in surviving the catastrophe and long winter--either trade contacts with drow, or a gate to a deep merfolk city, or even an unusual tolerance for werebears and their kin.
    Advantages *are* advantageous.

    However, only slightly less well known than "never trust a Drow" is this: "die, undead abomination, die!". The necropolis is… trying to take advantage of the 1,000 year apocalypse to improve their PR.

    I mean, it's completely reasonable even from selfish motives: human extinction means no new undead. But the PR spin is one of pure (and honest) benevolence: our intention is to aid humanity's survival.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Also, Quertus pointed out that his elf-liches will be preemptively raiding magical libraries to preserve lore in his own enclave, which of course is motivated entirely by altruism. Rocket Raccoon is using his left eye here.

    But it occurred to me that this would make a great storyline for an outside group:

    Liches are hoarding magical knowledge—the very same knowledge that could make the difference between survival and extinction. A hardy group of adventurers is tasked with tracking the liches to their hidden lair and reclaiming the stolen lore!

    That’s a whole AP chapter right there.
    Who said anything about *magical* knowledge? We're hoarding "Babbitty Rabbity" and "The Open Door". And "Babbity Rabbity and the Open Door". And all the other classics.

    Magical knowledge? We're a group led by immortal Lich Wizards - we've probably got more magical knowledge than most anywhere outside Boccob's library already. But, sure, we're keeping magical library knowledge from getting burned, too.

    If anyone *asks*, the Undead might be willing to *share* (some¹) magical knowledge - *especially* if the other cities *shared* their skilled elders with us (ie, let us gift their members with undeath). And *certainly* if the abandoned library that we plundered legally belonged to them.

    *Active* libraries (ie, ones that weren't left in the snow to rot, but actually have librarians, visitors, and active upkeep), we would simply… request the privilege of *copying* their manuscripts. For posterity.

    Do the undead want to come out "on top"? Absolutely. Do they want to "rule the world"? Nah, too much trouble. Other people no longer hunting them, and willingly becoming undead is pretty much a win for the Liches. And other people *losing* magical knowledge means no new Liches. What sane race world intentionally sterilize themselves that way?

    Of course, casters who have reached 12th, but have shown no interest in becoming undead? We have no interest in helping them gain more power, as there's no inherent advantage to us in that (beyond the continued survival of the population they're defending, which isn't nothing).

    So we're very interested in helping Wizards *reach* 12th level - and in helping them achieve Lich status, if they so desire. More immortal liches, protecting towns, means better protected towns throughout the 1,000 year winter.

    *Our* level 12 casters are periodically out earning XP (and they don't (permanently) die when they get in over their head), whereas we encourage the *other* level 12 casters to stay home and guard their towns.

    We provide maps of *safer* routes, to let the *lower level* adventurers level up (to 12th, and potential Lich status).

    Also, if our Divinations let us save anyone - especially adventuring parties that might go on to save others - we would deploy resources to do so. PR, and efficient.

    Yes, selfish motivations in parallel with selfless ones. Divinations could doubtless reveal this. But the selfless / stated motivations are completely genuine (even if the survival of the species is also arguably selfish, long-term).

    We *hope* that we build good PR with the other survivors, and that they would be willing to help defend us (or even that *some* Liches would eventually relocate to the necropolis, like the Necropolitans of skilled individuals are kinda expected to), but it is in no way a condition of our continued aid and good will.

    So, devious? Yes. But benevolent. *And* self-serving. Because undead cannot reproduce without humanity surviving, so benevolence *is* self-serving. Also, Luke, I am your great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather.

    ¹ spells to help survive the cold, create food, cure disease? Absolutely. (Not that Wizards get many such spells… but Archivists do!). Spells designed to destroy Undead, or their riverine phylacteries? Probably not so much.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2021-02-12 at 09:45 PM.

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