Results 31 to 48 of 48
-
2021-02-13, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Except the problem is that the gm can not afterwards say "you prepared the wrong spells this morning while I gave many cues on doughnuts being central to the plot yesterday and so that you should have prepared enhance doughnut" because the spontaneous caster could not have adjusted his spell list on such short notice.
-
2021-02-16, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
-
2021-02-17, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Have you not read the forums from which the Giant got his name? There is plenty of evidence there that the necessary level of toxic for such events to occur¹ is extraordinary common, and that your experiences are either indicative of a sheltered (gaming) upbringing, or a blessed existence.
Enjoy and appreciate your blessed existence, while the rest of us wallow in the midst of the mud and feces that is the memories of a more normal gaming experience.
¹ which is a rather low level of toxic, merely 3e alignment of "evil" (enjoys suffering of others), rather than the much higher level of toxic evidenced therein
-
2021-02-17, 05:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- virginia
- Gender
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Generally It would be... spell advancement rate?
That and the absolute restriction of spontaneous casting was RIDICULOUS.
Very quickly, you understand that the difficulty in the game is actually Zilla>Wizard>>Sorcerer>>fighter.
The last two have an issue with being stuck with options. Thematically it might be fine, but from pure practicality.
It's not that 3.5 prepared casting is good. It's not. It's clunky and really makes you play a game that you might not necessarily want to. But at the same time it's still better than spontaneous.
In 3.5 there ARE better casting mechanics though. It was an old game with tons of content.
The Spirit shaman has one of the best in the game. You get the whole list, but you prepare from the list, and cast spontaneously from your prepared spells.
The Spell point wizard is ALSO really really good [Still not as good as spell point cleric or Druid], where you also are a prepared spontaneous caster, and cast those spells with spell points.
There are classes that cast from their full list, but generally they are limited
And then there is my favorite of all time.
The ORIGINAL Erudite [from Dragon, not CompPsi]
You memorize all of your psionic powers that you learn, but the mechanic for manifesting was called unique powers per day.
Essentially, you had slots that are in super position. Lets say you have 3rd level powers
4/4/4 40 spell points.
The Erudite thus has 4 slots to fill per spell level, and you fill your slots by manifesting the power.
So if you manifest W and X, and you have WXYZ on your list, then you can only fill 2 more slots.
And then once they were filled, you could simply re-manifest the power by spending the points as normal.
It has the flexibility I crave without just saying, Oh, you can use any power. You ABSOLUTELY cannot. It's almost the wizard game in reverse. Sure, you could manifest water breathing on the party, but that need being filled DOES take away from your options. Each spell prepared is one less option you have, but it's not CRIPPLED like the comp psi version. The wizard has to wrack his brain if it's a good idea to prepare water breathing.
The erudite has to wrack his brain if it's a good idea to manifest it. Especially if you have already manifested 3 other unique powers. Yes you can use a higher level power if you have it, but those ALL TAKE FROM THE SAME POOL OF POWER POINTS. Then you can manifest even less.
I was already a lover of psionics and psychic powers, but when I say I fell in love with it...
I say it without any question, it's the best mechanic in the game.
-
2021-02-17, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Last edited by noob; 2021-02-17 at 08:45 AM.
-
2021-02-17, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Prepared Casting works best if your game works like a Heist Movie.
Which is what a good dungeon crawl should be like, quite often.
When you know roughly what you are going into, you can plan for it, you have time to prepare for it, and everyone can throw their contributions onto the table while you are planning for it. But you are also constantly on edge whether any plan will go just as planned, or whether there will be an unforseen complication you have not accounted for. A hidden guard or monster, a puzzle or trap you can not quite bypass, a treasure that nobody knew was cursed.
That way, the people who made plans and saw their plans come to fruition will be happy: "I knew there would be vampires, and I prepared Sunbeam!". But also the people who kept tools around for the unexpected can save the day.
The trick is to fight the right balance, and to not have the unexpected be telegraphed or just result in a failure state if nobody prepared for it - it's supposed to feel good if you do have the right tool, but if you didn't, well, you can still uncurse the treasure later you just have to figure out how to deal with it now!
Honestly, the best system for Magic would probably be a mixture between "Spontaneous" (=always available, just the stuff you can do, spontaneous is a poor name for that) and Prepared Magic.
The decisions whether to take a staple spell you just need in combat (say, Grease or Fireball) or whether to take a Tactical Toolbox spell that may or may not be useful (say, Break Enchantment or Mass Invisibility) is just a poor one.
It'd be much more interesting if players just had to directly choose between the Toolbox spells, and you just left the staple combat spells as a separate thing.LGBTitP
Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted Fanfiction)
Originally Posted by grarrrg
-
2021-02-17, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
-
2021-02-17, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2013
- Location
- Collegeville, PA
- Gender
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Prepared casting versus spontaneous casting is the difference between how a film school graduate enjoys a movie versus how an average person enjoys the same movie. At some point in your D&D career some people stop thinking about how great it is that they can cast fireball eight times a day and understand that they'll probably never have a need to do so, and that they can spend those same spell slots on doing other fun and useful things. Some people never get tired of casting fireball. Other people start to explore the versatility and flexibility provides superior tactical options day after day, and allows you to plan ahead or set things up in advance. Simply having utility spells in a book that you prepare and cast on days that you don't see combat creates an entirely new approach to adventuring.
Not having to worry about making choices is more fun for you. Some people have more fun being Batman.Resident Mad Scientist...
"It's so cool!"
Spoiler: ContestsVC I: Lord Commander Conrad Vayne, 1st place
VC II: Lorna, the Mother's Wrath, 5th place
VC XV: Tosk, Kursak the Marauder, Vierna Zalyl; 1st place, 6th/7th place
Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace
-
2021-02-17, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- virginia
- Gender
-
2021-02-17, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- virginia
- Gender
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
SpoilerIt's really quite the pet peeve that my favorite class is trashed so hard by people a little more...groggy., even though IN REALITY, it's probably the most balanced of all. Yes, even with spell to power.
The issue is actually in the complete psionics erudite. THAT ONE is horrible, but still retains a minimum of the flexibility that the original does. However it's so limited that it promotes cheese. The original isn't actually that cheesy at all, and is in essence, a proto form of an Arcanist with quick study.
It's just SUPREMELY FLEXIBLE.
But played straight, depending on what happens, it functions just like anything else. It doesn't really shine as a blaster, but has that tier 1 nope button, but it's not actually "stronger" than a wizard really, they just have an infinitely better means of choosing what is in the toolbox.
You can still play a spell to power erudite dumb as bricks. You could have a level of mastery where you are only thinking about learning say... direct damage spells and powers, and that's all you want.
It's crippled in a way, but nothing says you can't play it as a warmage. You TOTALLY could.
Or you could learn nothing but bard spells [A thought experiment I have had]. And play like a totally musical mentalist
Or you could snatch the whole dread necromancer list with enough XP. Or money really. And to be honest, if you limited yourself like that, you'd come out as a worse dread necromancer in many ways, as they can cast from the whole list spontaneously, but at most per day you'd get 36 powers, and that is permabaked into the class. You CAN'T prepare more than that.
Or you could do ALL of those things, which is what people fear, but you CAN'T do all of those things. You can do 4 things per spell level.
Yeah sure, it could cast reality revision a whole bunch of times a day, but a psion can do that too, but it's FIRMLY tier 2. Because it's a reskinned sorcerer. And in many ways, not having access to some of the stuff for sorcerers makes it a SLIGHT bit weaker, and it is more balanced.
Erudite is the wizard reskinned for psionics, where the psion is a reskinned sorcerer.
Undoubtedly, the spell to power erudite is WAAAAAY more versatile, but it's actually got decent enough internal limits than simply being someone with alter reality.
Is the 319 Erudite with spell to power the strongest class in the game? Barely, but yes.
Is it unkillable? HARDLY.
Does it necessarily have infinite resources? HEAVENS no.
Can you still break the game with the same PHB bull? You know it.
Even further if you simply make an easy bake spell point wizard, or a spell point archivist[LAWD]. I would say that since they actually don't have the limits on powers that they can prepare, in a lot of ways, their is eventually a theoretical tipping point where they would FAR overtake the erudite.
It's cheaper to make an SPEBW [Spell point easy bake wizard].
So it's not like there aren't ways you can crack the game wide open with other things. But cracking the game open isn't the point at all.
So the truth is actually, that the 319 STP Erudite is the most VERSATILE for the lowest investment. And only when fresh. Every power they manifest makes them 1/36 less versatile until. And really it's less than that.
Yes they can cast 19 9th level powers in a row, but... who needs to? What challenge does that complete?
Again, A psion can cast reality revision 19 times in a row as well, but it's not more powerful than a wizard. And the wizard doesn't even NEED that many 9th level spells.
But the gap closes by a LOT if you make an easy bake spell point wizard.
A LOT a lot.
It's that the erudite is easier to play. It's an EASIER TO PLAY wizard. But it makes you wonder if the difficulty of the wizard necessarily makes the experience to play better, or if it's ACTUAL balance, vs difficulty disguised as balance.
One final point is that self regulation is the key to making Erudite the most enjoyable class.
Having a theme to play around is what lets you not step on toes. It's not like you get non-psion powers for free.
Focus on a school or discipline, and then say... limit yourself from another type. Don't learn any enchantment spells, because you believe in free will. Don't buy any conjuration or psychoportation because you believe messing with time eventually brings mechanus robots, don't buy any illusion because you don't like to hide behind lies.
Whatever you want. Gimping yourself for the party is one of the privileges of the strong. You literally don't have to do everything. Don't.
Find everyone's niche, and stick to yours, and if you HAVE to use something to control someone's mind, [say you have psionic dominate]
Roleplay it like crazy. Get depressed. lash out a little bit.
You are protecting your individual character's integrity, the role of possibly the enchanter who is also in your party, the cohesion of the group's delegated positions, AND maybe causing a new story arc.
Maybe you want to find a guru who can use psychic reformation and modify memory to wipe their minds of the power and the experience.Last edited by DMVerdandi; 2021-02-17 at 11:13 PM.
-
2021-02-21, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2004
- Location
- In eternity.
- Gender
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Thanks for making me an erudite of the Erudite! Alleluia!
-
2021-02-21, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Last edited by noob; 2021-02-21 at 04:28 PM.
-
2021-02-23, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- France
- Gender
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Everybody made very good points about prepared versus spontaneous casting, but there's one little aspect I hadn't seen mentioned.
Prepared spellcasters also have a big advantage over spontaneous casters with spells that have permanent duration, or even just lengthy one (several days).
Sure, a sorcerer could pick permanency as a spell, but after casting it a few times it's no longer going to be useful on a day-to-day basis, further reducing his already limited spell selection.
Meanwhile, a wizard can prepare and cast several long-lasting spells on a day of no adventuring, and then the next day switch his selection to more useful ones for the challenges at hand, thus profiting of both.
Not to mention a similar ease with creating various magic items with just the right spell, and not having to bother with it afterward.
A spontaneous caster will certainly never pick a spell that is to be used one or twice and no longer afterward. Prepared casters can do this at no particular cost.
Also, all prepared casters can expend their spell lists with Sanctified (if non-evil) and Corrupt spells. Spontaneous casters cannot (except for some specific prestige classes).Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
Extended signature
-
2021-02-23, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
-
2021-02-23, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
-
2021-02-23, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
-
2021-02-23, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Spontaneous clerics lose their ability to spontaneously convert spellslots. The line makes direct mention of that ability:
clerics have a special advantage: they can spontaneously cast any sanctified spell, just as they can spontaneously cast cure wounds spells.Characters who use this option lose the ability to spontaneously cast cure, inflict, or summon nature's ally spells in place of other spells.Last edited by Darg; 2021-02-23 at 01:30 PM.
-
2021-02-23, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
- Gender
Re: What is the appeal of prepared casting?
Personally I think prepared casters have far greater latitude in sandbox games where you have objectives that aren't strictly related to breaking into areas where dangerous stuff lives and killing it. A wizard suffers very little or not at all from adding spells to their spellbook that aren't strictly used for combat purposes. Using stuff like wall of stone, stone shape, and fabricate in kingdom building gets pretty interesting. You don't have to sacrifice combat effectiveness to add to your army with animate dead on days where you aren't personally fighting. You can take the planar binding line and associated support spells (magic circle, dimensional anchor, etc. to get involved with outsiders and negotiate with extra-planar entities. You can take contact other plane or scrying to get more information on your enemies, or even your allies. Stuff like that. So I guess I enjoy that prepared casters have interesting ways to interact and advanced themselves within the setting, and can do so at relatively little cost to their combat performance.
4e and 5es problems aren't really their casting systems, although that's part of it, but rather that most class features that weren't directly related to combat were removed.
In combat, I think it's more interesting to tactically tailor you spells to encounters than it is to take a handful of spells known at every level that are just always good, but that's just me.Last edited by Zanos; 2021-02-23 at 02:22 PM.
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!