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Thread: The Snyder Cut

  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Exactly - it's more than possible to take an established franchise and make something that is not just technically but also conceptually brilliant.
    Especially if you're the original creator of that franchise and also a director with a good grasp of visual storytelling. Which George Miller is.

    (George Lucas, by contrast, sort of isn't. His directorial style is much more akin to documentary filming than narrative filming).

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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    In the realm of hypothetical Star Wars movies that will never be...what would a Star Wars outright filmed in the style of a documentary/mockumentary look like? Would that have actually played to Lucas's strengths, and/or been something interesting to watch at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    In the realm of hypothetical Star Wars movies that will never be...what would a Star Wars outright filmed in the style of a documentary/mockumentary look like? Would that have actually played to Lucas's strengths, and/or been something interesting to watch at all?
    /exterior: the windswept duned of tatooine/

    voice over: Today we are going to talk to the moisture farmers of Tattooine. These roughnecks of the sandwastes, these hidden heroes of the empire live isolated lives, far from the cities of Coruscant, and are responsible for almost .00000000000000000004% of the Empire's water reserves.

    /camera sweeps over the Lars homestead. A series of igloo like adobe outbuildings in a small sea of moisture extractors.

    /camera focuses in on Owen Lars, moisture farmer. In the background his adopted son Luke busily works on fixing a moisture tractor/

    Owen: Yeah, its a hard life, for sure. But a good one. We have a purpose you know. The Empire needs this moisture and we are here to provide it. I just know that I'm building something today that my adopted son, Luke, will inherit and pass on to his sons.

    Owen gets a far away look in his eyes. Hesitant. Conflicted.

    Owen: Yep.... a real legacy of hope....
    Last edited by Gallowglass; 2021-04-14 at 10:27 AM.

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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Hell, Into the Spiderverse was a reboot/sequel/whatever of some sort, but most everyone here considered it a pretty decent film, despite the existence of quite a lot of other film takes on Spidey. Make a good story, and pretty much anything else is forgivable.
    Exactly. That's why I dismiss claims that it's not possible to make a new Star Wars movie that will be liked as much as the originals as simply wrong. It's absolutely possible, they're just not doing it.
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    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    In the realm of hypothetical Star Wars movies that will never be...what would a Star Wars outright filmed in the style of a documentary/mockumentary look like? Would that have actually played to Lucas's strengths, and/or been something interesting to watch at all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    In the realm of hypothetical Star Wars movies that will never be...what would a Star Wars outright filmed in the style of a documentary/mockumentary look like? Would that have actually played to Lucas's strengths, and/or been something interesting to watch at all?
    Probably something like the Journals of Master Gnost-Dural that served as a previews for SWTOR. Those are a series of short videos shot in sequence in which the eponymous Jedi Master speaks in stentorian tones about historical events over a series of sequenced still images. Put together they're around 48 minutes, so that's basically a documentary episode.

    However, I don't really think Lucas is a documentary style filmmaker, what he is an extremely archetypical filmmaker. He's not interested in complexity in characters or story, but in staging relatively simple events in a visually arresting fashion. He really doesn't do nuance, which can be seen in the case of something like Red Tails, which is basically 'black pilots awesome, protect bombers, beat Germans, everyone cheers' and that's the whole movie. I could actually see Lucas as very effective at a certain kind of superhero film, one that had a very simple get the gang together and then beat the dark lord kind of framework (admittedly someone would need to help him with the dialogue, but that's what god scriptwriters are for).

    The interesting parallel there is that most superhero films are in fact incredibly simple, but because the archetypes they offer tend to be discomforting most filmmakers cover them in banter, jokes, quips, and general business to make sure the fridge horror stays buried. For example, in Aquaman Orm smashes every ship on the planet early in the film, an act that would kill millions and cause a massive disruption of the global economy triggering a worldwide depression that would kill tens of millions more in secondary effects. The movie very, very much doesn't want you to think about that at all and would rather you watch an octopus play the drums.

    Zack Synder is interesting because he's the rare superhero filmmaker who doesn't hide from that, at least not as much. He embraces the superheroes = gods for the 21st century approach, including the trend toward horrible downer endings and the reduction of the entire human species to spectator status. Of course, this requires a different kind of deception, so it's probably a wash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Probably something like the Journals of Master Gnost-Dural that served as a previews for SWTOR. Those are a series of short videos shot in sequence in which the eponymous Jedi Master speaks in stentorian tones about historical events over a series of sequenced still images. Put together they're around 48 minutes, so that's basically a documentary episode.

    However, I don't really think Lucas is a documentary style filmmaker, what he is an extremely archetypical filmmaker. He's not interested in complexity in characters or story, but in staging relatively simple events in a visually arresting fashion. He really doesn't do nuance, which can be seen in the case of something like Red Tails, which is basically 'black pilots awesome, protect bombers, beat Germans, everyone cheers' and that's the whole movie. I could actually see Lucas as very effective at a certain kind of superhero film, one that had a very simple get the gang together and then beat the dark lord kind of framework (admittedly someone would need to help him with the dialogue, but that's what god scriptwriters are for).

    The interesting parallel there is that most superhero films are in fact incredibly simple, but because the archetypes they offer tend to be discomforting most filmmakers cover them in banter, jokes, quips, and general business to make sure the fridge horror stays buried. For example, in Aquaman Orm smashes every ship on the planet early in the film, an act that would kill millions and cause a massive disruption of the global economy triggering a worldwide depression that would kill tens of millions more in secondary effects. The movie very, very much doesn't want you to think about that at all and would rather you watch an octopus play the drums.

    Zack Synder is interesting because he's the rare superhero filmmaker who doesn't hide from that, at least not as much. He embraces the superheroes = gods for the 21st century approach, including the trend toward horrible downer endings and the reduction of the entire human species to spectator status. Of course, this requires a different kind of deception, so it's probably a wash.
    This was discussed before. Snyder is extremely talented in depicting supercool ubermench archetypes. He frames the camera in love and in worship of the hero-savior.

    Edit: Oh, and is it normal if I prefer the new Jumanji Movies to the original? Since we were talking about useless reboots
    Last edited by Cikomyr2; 2021-04-14 at 09:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Hell, Into the Spiderverse was a reboot/sequel/whatever of some sort, but most everyone here considered it a pretty decent film, despite the existence of quite a lot of other film takes on Spidey. Make a good story, and pretty much anything else is forgivable.
    Counterpoint: Into the Spiderverse is one the least formulaic takes on spiderman, with all the alternate spideys running around some of them being real outlandish, the protagonist being Miles Morales, the changes to Doc Ock and The Prowler, Green Goblin being minor, and Aunt May somehow becoming awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Counterpoint: Into the Spiderverse is one the least formulaic takes on spiderman, with all the alternate spideys running around some of them being real outlandish, the protagonist being Miles Morales, the changes to Doc Ock and The Prowler, Green Goblin being minor, and Aunt May somehow becoming awesome.
    Excuse me, Aunt May is always awesome. The spider may have given Peter his powers, but Aunt May and Uncle Ben are who made him Spider-Man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    In the realm of hypothetical Star Wars movies that will never be...what would a Star Wars outright filmed in the style of a documentary/mockumentary look like?
    Look up the old Star Wars fan film Troops. Come on, click the link, you know you want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich
    Zack Synder is interesting because he's the rare superhero filmmaker who doesn't hide from that, at least not as much. He embraces the superheroes = gods for the 21st century approach, including the trend toward horrible downer endings and the reduction of the entire human species to spectator status. Of course, this requires a different kind of deception, so it's probably a wash.
    This. Love or hate Man of Steel, the fact it started generating memes about how many people died in Metropolis while Zod and Kal were duking it out was only reflecting precisely the way it was portrayed on film. And indeed that very element of the story is an essential component of what I think of as the best part of Batman vs Superman: Bruce Wayne's reaction to the destruction and the most heroic illustration of his character: when everyone else is running away from the building collapse, he's running headlong towards it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Excuse me, Aunt May is always awesome. The spider may have given Peter his powers, but Aunt May and Uncle Ben are who made him Spider-Man.
    There was a period of time, prior to One More Day, where Aunt May new that Peter was Spider-Man.

    For a period of time, PEter, MJ(this was after the wedding) and Aunt MAy had to move into Avengers tower.

    Wolverine got kind of iffy when May took over the kitchen, he'd gotten used to Jarvis's cooking, and Logan is actually kind of picky about his breakfast.

    He starts telling her that, no offense... And she ignores him, plucks the cigar our of his mouth, puts it out in his glass of whiskey, and informs him that as long as she is staying in the tower there will be no smoking or drinking until noon at the earliest.

    Wolverine backs down.

    Another examples: The Chamelon once impersonated Peter and red to get into his home. Aunt May realized something was up more or less immediately, and after quickly confirming her suspicions with a trick question... Let him think he'd fooled her, kept him talking, let him into her home, and talked with him while she baked almond-sugar cookies and knitted a scarf.

    Then just as he's making his move he starts to feel sleepy, comments on it, and Aunt May casually tells him that she put cyanide in the cookies(the almonds being to cover up the bitter almond taste of cyanide.) and reveals that she knitted "Got Ya" into the sweater while explaining that she realized he was an imposter more or less immediately and that she honestly didn't care if he was Chameleon, Mysterio, or someone new.

    (Note, she didn't actually feed him cyanide. It was her sleeping pills. she said it was cyanide to screw with him.)

    More recently, upon learning that she had cancer, her first thought after getting the diagnosis was to use what might be her last few months to reopen the FEAST shelters and help as many people as she can.

    She beat the cancer, but she's still helping people as the new head of FEAST. When she saw that a homeless young woman had a symbiote, this being right after New York was overrun by homeless people and mental patients possessed by Ofshoot's of Carnage as part of one of Kassady's murder sprees, May does not say "get out" but "are you okay?" Not the least bit afraid, despite the circumstances, she just wants to make sure the person with the Symbiote is okay.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Excuse me, Aunt May is always awesome. The spider may have given Peter his powers, but Aunt May and Uncle Ben are who made him Spider-Man.
    Going to second this. Raimi!Aunt May whacked Doc Ock while he was trying to hold her hostage and MCU!Aunt May was ready to go all wrath-of-the-valkyries on one of the neighbors when she thought he’d hurt Peter at the end of Civil War.

    My hope is that at some point we’ll get a Venom crossover into the MCU so she’ll get her own symbiote and become a super person in her own right because I would absolutely go see that.
    Last edited by Kareeah_Indaga; 2021-04-15 at 07:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Going to second this. Raimi!Aunt May whacked Doc Ock while he was trying to hold her hostage and MCU!Aunt May was ready to go all wrath-of-the-valkyries on one of the neighbors when she thought he’d hurt Peter at the end of Civil War.

    My hope is that at some point we’ll get a Venom crossover into the MCU so she’ll get her own symbiote and become a super person in her own right because I would absolutely go see that.
    Well, there was that one reality where she became a Herald of Galactis.


    Grnated, that story was more comical than serious, but still. There is canonically a version of Aunt May who became a Herald of Galactus.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-04-15 at 08:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Counterpoint: Into the Spiderverse is one the least formulaic takes on spiderman, with all the alternate spideys running around some of them being real outlandish, the protagonist being Miles Morales, the changes to Doc Ock and The Prowler, Green Goblin being minor, and Aunt May somehow becoming awesome.
    Far from a counterpoint, that seems to be precisely the point: that whether something is a sequel/prequel/interquel/remake/reboot or plays on nostalgia or brand recognition does not determine whether it's taking risks or telling a good story or worth going to see. A new IP is taking one risk that established franchises aren't. That's all that can be said about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Edit: Oh, and is it normal if I prefer the new Jumanji Movies to the original? Since we were talking about useless reboots
    Oh yeah, I'm on board with that. The new movies are surprisingly fun. I didn't really expect them to be great, but they're an enjoyable watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Counterpoint: Into the Spiderverse is one the least formulaic takes on spiderman, with all the alternate spideys running around some of them being real outlandish, the protagonist being Miles Morales, the changes to Doc Ock and The Prowler, Green Goblin being minor, and Aunt May somehow becoming awesome.
    Oh yes, it's certainly a different take, and that is definitely part of what makes it good, but if you'd told me three months before it came out that I was going to enjoy yet another Spiderman origin story from another reboot, and that, furthermore, it was going to include five spidey origin stories in the same film, I would have been very skeptical.

    The movie itself is great, but I could *very* easily imagine the same basic concept coming off as absolutely awful with a different execution.

    When a movie's absolutely great, we largely don't pick at it a ton. I think there's more urge to take something apart and see what's wrong when it's not awesome. We start looking at all the different reasons that might have made it turn out bad. Often it's not just one thing. You can break almost any one "rule" and still make something good, but there's certainly a point where things go too far.

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    Uh... If you wanna be honest about it, the idea of Spider-Man teaming up with alternate universe versions of himself isn't exactly that Novel.

    I think the earliest example of it was the final arc of the 90s Spider-Man Cartoon, where Spider-Man led an army consisting of himself, a Spider-Man who'd stolen Doc Ock's tentacles, a rich Spider-Man whose Uncle Ben never died, a Spider-Man who never cured his "mutation disease" from the Neogenic Nightmares arc so he sill had six arms, and an actor from a world where Spider-Man exists as fiction and plays Spider-Man on TV to help a version of the Scarlet Spider save his word from a Peter Parker that went insane and bonded to the Carnage Symbiote.

    However, there's also a storyline where it turns out that almost every sapient species in the universe by sheer confidence has their own Spider-Man with similar powers, values, and costumes and they try to team up to help fight crime all over the universe.

    Then there's the Spider-Men, where Peter accidentally gets sent to the Ultimate UNiverse and teams up with Miles.

    Spider-Verse, the comic event that inspired the movie, where an army of Spider-People from across the multiverse team up to fight a family of interdimensional vampires that like to eat people with Spider-Powers.

    Web Warriors, a 12 issue series about Spider-UK, Spider-Girl(Formerly Arrana), Spider-Gwen, Spider-Ham, Mayday Parker, Spider-Man India, Spider-Man Noir and later Lady Spider, Spider-Punk, and Spider-Ham 2099 teaming up to fill in in universes that lost their Spider-Man.

    As an aside, the first issue of that series had the Web-Warriors fighting crime in a universe that was very similar to the universe that the 1960s Spider-Man cartoon took place in partly becuase they thought it's Spider-Man was gone and partly becuase the rules of that realty made it a very safe place to train and they don't have the resources to build a danger room. They thought that Spider-Man was gone, but it turns out that that's just the reality of the Memetic 1960s Spider-Man when Gwen crashes into a building and finds him just sitting at a desk.

    Dead No More: The Clone Conspiracy, which is basically "the Clone SAga... But actually planned out in advance so it isn't frikcking stupid" had involvement from the Web Warriors(including Spider-Gwen swapping herself out with a clone of Main Universe Gwen to py on the bad guys) and a bonus appearance from Spider-Man 2099.

    Spider-Men II which isn't technically an interdimensional crossover since Miles had moved to the main universe by then but ties up loose ends from the previous one.

    And Spider-Gheddon which is a direct sequel to the Spider-Verse comic event.

    ...for anyone interested in reading these stories, please note that Peni "Sp//DR" Parker in the comics is a very different character than in the movie. Think less "Generic Kawaiisa" and more "Neon Genesis Evangelion."
    Last edited by Rater202; 2021-04-16 at 09:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Oh yeah, I'm on board with that. The new movies are surprisingly fun. I didn't really expect them to be great, but they're an enjoyable watch.
    Like, the new Jumanjis occupy such a weird space. They are nothing alike the original. What makes them good is not what made the original good.

    However, they are nevertheless elevated - slightly-by there having an original movie.

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    Not sure if it really counts, since it was a book adaptation in the first place, but Disney's new The Jungle Book has better received and get better ratings on Rotten Tomatoes compared to the old one from the 60s, directed by Walt Disney himself.
    Last edited by Precure; 2021-04-16 at 10:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    Not sure if it really counts, since it was a book adaptation in the first place, but Disney's new The Jungle Book has better received and get better ratings on Rotten Tomatoes compared to the old one from the 60s, directed by Walt Disney himself.
    Did Rotten Tomatoes even exist in the 60s? Im more than a little skeptical that the original's reviews mean anything at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Did Rotten Tomatoes even exist in the 60s? Im more than a little skeptical that the original's reviews mean anything at all.
    Also, again, Rotten Tomatoes' scoring system is not designed to score movies. It's designed to score whether something is worth watching (ie the percent of people who think it's at least a 6 out of 10, IIRC).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Did Rotten Tomatoes even exist in the 60s? Im more than a little skeptical that the original's reviews mean anything at all.
    Aye, it was dreadful, until the 70s people had to lob rotten turnips at failed comedians. That whole tomato concept truly is a progress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Did Rotten Tomatoes even exist in the 60s?
    Why is it relevant?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Also, again, Rotten Tomatoes' scoring system is not designed to score movies. It's designed to score whether something is worth watching (ie the percent of people who think it's at least a 6 out of 10, IIRC).
    ...one could argue that is in factscoring movies. if 80% of people score something above 60% that's a statistically valid metric....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    ...one could argue that is in factscoring movies. if 80% of people score something above 60% that's a statistically valid metric....
    I didn't say it's not a valid metric. In fact, I think it's a very valid metric. I just said it's not designed to score movies. At least, not in the traditional sense of "x out of 10", for example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    "Other people also have it bad" is not a good argument for the status quo. It's just an argument that more people need help.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Jul 2015

    Default Re: The Snyder Cut

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I didn't say it's not a valid metric. In fact, I think it's a very valid metric. I just said it's not designed to score movies. At least, not in the traditional sense of "x out of 10", for example.
    Rotten Tomatoes does in fact keep the 'x out of 10' data, it's just not the 'Tomatometer' value its the 'average rating' value that shows up if you click on a title. The Synder Cut, for example, has a Tomatometer valued of 71% and an Average Rating of 6.7. That's a relatively close alignment, but sometimes there's considerably greater divergence. Raya and the Last Dragon, by contrast, has a Tomatometer value of 94%, but an average rating of 7.7. However, the average rating has issues because the different critics who report into Rotten Tomatoes may use different scoring systems which means any tabulation is necessarily coming with some pretty wide error bars.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

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